Pairing two accomplished film editors together to discuss crucial decisions on how they cut, keep and shape material in order to drive dynamic narratives, presented by Adobe x Variety at Sundance Film Festival.
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00:00I like films that ask questions and don't give you answers.
00:03And I think that's a quote that I'm going to misattribute
00:05because I can't remember who it's from.
00:07But to me, I said it.
00:08You said it.
00:08Yeah.
00:09Welcome, guys.
00:11How are you feeling?
00:13Good.
00:13I don't know.
00:14We have a tight fight.
00:16So Ben, you're going to be doing a lot of work
00:20with the film, right?
00:21Yeah.
00:22I'm going to be doing a lot of work with the film.
00:24I'm going to be doing a lot of work with the film.
00:26I'm going to be doing a lot of work with the film.
00:28So Ben, Ernie, you both have worked
00:31on a number of different types of projects.
00:35You both have fiction projects in the festival this year.
00:39But you've both worked on narrative features,
00:42documentary, music videos, commercials.
00:46How do you approach different projects as an editor
00:49as you jump into a new production?
00:53I think I go into every project, and I'm like,
00:55I don't know what I'm doing.
00:57Nobody wants me here.
00:59And the only shortcut, the only secret is to do, is to try,
01:03is to get an assembly together, to get a scene cut,
01:07to do a pass of something.
01:09And it's once I have that, I feel like, oh,
01:12I can make that part better.
01:14That doesn't work at all, so I can now tweak that.
01:18And so to me, it's just I have to rush
01:20to the worst edit possible.
01:23And that's step one.
01:24And then it's all uphill from there.
01:26Yeah.
01:30Yeah, I love that.
01:36I think I have the same workflow for all,
01:39as far as just kind of organization and just
01:47how I'm actually just looking at footage.
01:50And then when it gets to the point of actually sequencing,
01:58my technique gets wildly different.
02:01Because like you said, I've done music videos, and documentary,
02:05and all that stuff.
02:06And I think there's just unique demands for each project.
02:12For each project.
02:14So from a sort of admin standpoint, I'm very strict.
02:23But once it gets into the right brain kind of creative part,
02:27that's when I try to unlearn and really just adhere
02:30to what the project needs.
02:33Yeah, I think, jokes aside from before,
02:37I like to start from a place of, I
02:39call it like making a palette of paint or whatever.
02:42And so to me, that's having an assistant editor.
02:45Riley, shout out Riley, where are you?
02:47Yeah, give it up for assistant editors again.
02:50Never too much.
02:51Doing line by lines for a narrative project,
02:54pulling selects for a commercial or a music video,
02:57getting a sync stack going.
02:58Basically, I just want to watch everything.
03:00I want to react to it.
03:01And then I want to take a bunch of notes.
03:03I want to try a bunch of things.
03:05And then once I have all of those ingredients,
03:07I feel like I can really, like you said,
03:09start to move into what's working, what's not working,
03:13what should it be.
03:14But I always want to start from a place of like,
03:16I know, okay, I'd love line read three from take one.
03:21I want all of that granularity to start.
03:23And then that allows me to be like,
03:24well, I'm already working with the best stuff.
03:26Yeah.
03:27That actually makes me think of something
03:29that I'm like, more and more,
03:32I'm reticent to really just start jumping in
03:35and throwing stuff on the timeline.
03:36Now, no matter what it is, I'm like,
03:38I want to just understand the breadth
03:41of everything that's there.
03:43And really just like spend time
03:44and like all the material, what's needed,
03:47what we have, you know, what the expectations are.
03:49And just like, I don't know,
03:51like come into the actual edit,
03:53edit is like, you know, as informed as possible.
03:56That's become more a part of the process now.
04:00Harkening back to my conversation
04:02with Holly and Stefania,
04:03both of you worked on films that have this sort of narrative.
04:07This is what it's about,
04:09but then there's a subtext of what it's about
04:12that's very sort of,
04:14let's as a society look at ourselves,
04:17whether that's like, let's question celebrity
04:19or sort of the power that we are handing over to celebrity
04:22or women's, you know, objectification of women
04:25and the women's place in society.
04:28How do you approach storytelling from that lens of like,
04:32yes, there's this narrative arc
04:33that we're needing to address,
04:34but there's also these sort of societal subtexts
04:38that we're weaving in through the editorial process.
04:41I said this upstairs in our interview
04:44and I'll repeat it here so you guys can hear it.
04:46But basically I think I like films that ask questions
04:50and don't give you answers.
04:51And I think that's a quote that I'm gonna misattribute
04:53because I can't remember who it's from.
04:55But to me-
04:56I said it.
04:57You said it, yeah.
04:58This is my-
04:58Sorry, last night.
04:59Yeah, okay.
05:01And so for me, when you're thinking about subtext,
05:04it's almost like you can't,
05:06like the minute you start to put a brain on it,
05:09the minute you start to try to say,
05:12okay, I should heighten this to address,
05:14you know, our film is about the cult of celebrity.
05:16It's about the power we give to people who are kind of awful
05:19because maybe they make music that we like
05:22or give us something that we like.
05:24And the minute you start to like talk about that,
05:26then it's answering the question for the audience.
05:29And I think it's really powerful.
05:31I think the medium is most powerful
05:34when it asks that question
05:35and then the audience has to sit with it.
05:37The credits roll and they're like, wait a minute,
05:40maybe I am the problem.
05:42Or whatever it is, you know,
05:43whatever your outcome you're going for.
05:46Well, on-
05:47So, By Design was directed by Amanda Kramer,
05:51who is a filmmaker who I've worked on
05:53every single one of her films.
05:56And she has a very unique voice,
05:59a very unique method of working.
06:01And so the way that I approach her material
06:03is not like how I approach, you know,
06:05would approach any other project,
06:07which is to cut almost purely for subtext
06:10and to approach scenes, not necessarily, you know,
06:15in the way I-
06:18You gotta talk more about this, what does that mean?
06:21Well, you know, in narrative,
06:23there are these kind of eternal rules, I suppose,
06:28which are like character, narrative, clarity,
06:33in the approach to editing.
06:36And Amanda's really, her approach is more diagonal
06:39and her films are a discussion of a theme.
06:43And, you know, there's character and narrative
06:45within that, of course, which I'm deeply concerned with.
06:48But when I first am thinking about like how to lay out
06:52and how to really express a scene,
06:56I'm kind of only, at least at first,
06:59thinking about the analytical kind of nuance of it.
07:05And then that's kind of how I get into it.
07:07I know it's kind of an abstract way, but-
07:10Well, no, I mean, I can kind of imagine that
07:13cutting a film where the lead character is a chair
07:16is a challenge and you kind of have to rely on subtext.
07:20So, I mean, in all seriousness,
07:24how did you go about approaching a film
07:28where your lead character is a chair?
07:32Well, for those who haven't seen the movie,
07:33you know, what happens is Juliette Lewis is the lead
07:35and she swaps souls with a very well-crafted chair.
07:39And both are just inanimate.
07:43The chair doesn't move and then Juliette Lewis doesn't move.
07:46So the dialogue scenes with Juliette Lewis
07:52not moving or talking, from a practical point of view,
07:56quite easy to cut because you just have
07:58a person going like this.
08:00Like continuity is probably pretty easy.
08:01Continuity, there's no problem.
08:03And when you kind of like need to like fit in a line
08:05or whatever, you're just like, well, there she is.
08:11That's the future of filmmaking right there.
08:13That's the future of filmmaking
08:14is just inanimate characters.
08:16There's really no issues.
08:21No, I actually tried to cut it
08:25as if she was a participant in the scene.
08:30So I would cut to reaction shots and kind of, you know,
08:34stick on them for a little bit longer
08:36than maybe you would for someone
08:37who's doing absolutely nothing.
08:40Because everyone in the film is projecting
08:42onto this inanimate character.
08:45This inanimate woman and getting mad at her, loving her,
08:50having every single emotion at this just object basically.
08:56So I kind of just tried to like emulate
09:00the idea that they were getting feedback from the void.
09:04Yeah, you mentioned Juliette Lewis.
09:06Both of your films have some powerhouse performers.
09:10And that's in ours as well.
09:11Oh, it is.
09:12I didn't realize that.
09:14But then also Io Edebiri and John Malkovich.
09:18I mean, some big, big, strong actors.
09:22How do you go about sort of developing
09:24these complex character arcs
09:26while having these amazing sort of performances
09:29in front of you and deciding, you know,
09:31when and where to cut?
09:33I mean, it's kind of an embarrassment of riches
09:36when you have such talent.
09:38You know, you watch Rush's and you're like,
09:41I like that one.
09:42And then you watch more and you're like,
09:44oh, I like that one too.
09:45And you know, your select bin is like 90% selects.
09:47And then it's like, well, now I need a super selects bin.
09:52But I think for me, I'm big on analogies.
09:56And my analogy is, you know, just again,
10:00starting from bad, starting from just a version, right?
10:03Rushing to get a version done.
10:04If it's a long conversation,
10:07Io and John's chemistry in our film is amazing.
10:10They're like going toe to toe,
10:11sparring with one another in their words and their actions.
10:15And yeah, you just start with what's on the page.
10:17Start with what you know.
10:19And then there it's like, refine it.
10:20You're at the potter's wheel and you're trimming,
10:22you're pulling, you're pushing,
10:23you're doing all those things.
10:25And then maybe you do it and you do it too much
10:27and the pot falls apart and then you start over.
10:30But I think ultimately it's that idea
10:32that the other presenters talked about of trying.
10:35I like to say in a director interview,
10:38I'd rather try something than talk about it
10:41because I feel like thankfully, you know,
10:43we're editing digital,
10:44we're able to make these changes very quickly.
10:46It's so easy to just be like, oh, cut that line.
10:49Oh, how did that play?
10:50And react to that.
10:51And then I just love with these, you know,
10:54powerhouse actors and this dynamic,
10:56their character arcs is like,
10:58we had the luxury of cutting
10:59for about 10, 11 months on Opus.
11:03And the film becomes this like living thing
11:06that like my understanding of it,
11:09day one is totally different
11:10than my understanding month four.
11:12And in that process, you're learning
11:15kind of who these characters are
11:16in the context of the film.
11:18You're learning what the film is and what it needs.
11:20And that relationship is like the most exciting thing to me.
11:23And you're like, you're watching,
11:25I don't have children, I have a nephew who's really cute,
11:27but like, it's like watching them grow up
11:29and seeing that dynamic, you know,
11:31like the first time you get dailies,
11:33you're like, I don't know.
11:35Just an unformed.
11:37It could be anything.
11:37Infant, yeah.
11:39But yeah, it's super great,
11:41like great actors giving you kind of a level work.
11:45It just makes, I always compare, another analogy,
11:49I always compare it to cooking.
11:50It's like, you know, you work on a project
11:52and it was written and directed
11:54by a five Michelin star chef
11:56and they went shopping at the best organic whatever place.
12:01It's my job just not to drop it in the kitchen.
12:05Well, so to go from your super selects bin
12:08to a finished product,
12:11you know, the role of the editor has really evolved,
12:15especially probably in the last 10 years
12:17in terms of when you're doing your, you know,
12:20first viewings with maybe some producers
12:22or EPs that come in,
12:23there's a lot more expectation of like,
12:26this has to look pretty close to the final piece
12:30or else people start being like,
12:31well, but then that looks not,
12:33and they get taken out of it.
12:34So how do you approach that, you know,
12:36knowing that you're the editor,
12:38but then you're also having to kind of play
12:40so many other roles that really will be finished
12:44by other people or, you know, you'll pass on,
12:46but sort of the process of not just being the craft editor.
12:51I guess if there are, you know, budding editors
12:55that here are gonna watch it,
12:56one very practical piece of advice I'll give right now
12:59is that when someone's like, I can watch it, Ruff,
13:02they are, they are lying.
13:04Even if they think that they can watch it, Ruff,
13:07they are, it is a lie.
13:10Once you present work, yes, you want it, you know,
13:13within reason to have a sense of-
13:15Like 80, 90.
13:16Yeah.
13:17Sound design, music, whether you have the, you know,
13:20like stems from the composer or just like putting in temp,
13:23it's like build the world, present the world
13:26and present the tone, you know,
13:28I almost think is like more important than the art.
13:30I almost think is like more important
13:32than maybe the more like in the weeds mechanics stuff
13:35and, you know, make sure it's pacey
13:37and like the really unfinished, unformed
13:41kind of like stages of the film are in-house,
13:46are interior only.
13:48Only you and your-
13:48It's like a body horror situation.
13:50Don't look.
13:52Don't look.
13:55Yeah, no, I think my philosophy
13:57is get it to 80, 85% of the way and offline.
14:01And that means trying temp sound design,
14:04trying, I'll do a temp color pass if a scene,
14:09you know, like they were rushed on the day
14:11and then I get the white balance right.
14:12Like trying to get all those,
14:13removing any obstacle to a producer, a client, a director,
14:17anybody being taken out of the story,
14:20knowing it's gonna get better,
14:21knowing that there's like sound mixers
14:23that are like have tools I've never even heard of.
14:26Yeah.
14:27But I still wanna have things balanced
14:28because you sit in an edit,
14:30you know, you're gonna have things come out
14:32when you're sitting with your producers or somebody else.
14:35They're gonna mention everything.
14:36I mean, you know, everyone's different,
14:38but I find most people just mention everything
14:41that's bumping, bugging them, whatever, you know.
14:44They're not like,
14:44oh, I understand that's gonna get fixed later.
14:46Like that's not, they, you know, they're, you know,
14:49the people are very precious about their work
14:52and they're very concerned
14:53and they, you know, are kind of like marking everything.
14:57The, in Premiere, the Easy Mixer, like Enhanced Speech,
15:03stuff is making, you know, a lot of the kind of schlepping
15:07that would have to happen with like dialogue cleanup
15:09and like mix stuff, like way easier now,
15:13or at least just like more compatible
15:15with a quicker workflow.
15:17So that's, you know, makes it way, you know,
15:21really buttresses the process to like get it very watchable.
15:26For a client or a director or whatever.
15:28Yeah, what are some of the top things,
15:30like, again, for these aspiring editors,
15:33what are some of the top things
15:34that like a producer will come in and be like,
15:36meh, you know, that little,
15:38and you're like, yeah, it's gonna be fixed, but.
15:40Like loud noises, you know,
15:42that are not supposed to be there.
15:44When they're there, it's good.
15:46When they're supposed to be there and they're there.
15:48Yeah, it's a scary movie.
15:49No, I think it's, yeah, it's any rough edges, color, sound.
15:54We do a lot of split screens on my edits
15:57where I'm, you know, wanting to look at continuity.
15:59Somebody's hand up versus hand down.
16:01Are we retiming a two shot
16:03so that somebody answers somebody quicker?
16:05Are we finding a place for an ADR line?
16:06Like any of those things that feel like a mistake
16:11because it's temp.
16:12I think that's the stuff that I would work on.
16:15Yeah, definitely.
16:16Yeah, I think on the micro and then maybe on the macro,
16:18I'd say that the one thing that I just get a lot
16:22across all projects is kind of just like pace and pacing.
16:27And I feel like when people,
16:29especially when they're watching a rough cut,
16:31they feel like they're like in a space
16:34or in an idea for too long or not long enough.
16:37That's the thing that really, you know,
16:39that people like really jump on immediately.
16:42And that's a work in progress.
16:43That's not anything that you could ever nail on a first cut.
16:45And that's always like, you know,
16:47something that fluctuates throughout the process.
16:50I know that both of you obviously work very collaboratively
16:53with your assistant editors, but also your directors.
16:56How do you sort of approach that creative collaboration?
17:01What are some of, you know, the shorthands
17:03that you develop with your, you know,
17:06collaborators in the filmmaking process?
17:08It's definitely one of the most important relationships,
17:11I think, in filmmaking
17:13because you are spending so much time together,
17:15you kind of lose your minds together.
17:18And I guess for me, what I look for
17:21is that emotional intelligence
17:22that they talked about earlier.
17:23I look for someone who is down to try things
17:29that maybe they don't want to try right away.
17:31And then I return the favor, you know?
17:33And I think like the best version of those relationships
17:36is it's two people who are pushing each other
17:40to like make the thing better
17:41and fighting for kind of the integrity
17:45and like the North Star of what the project is.
17:48And then just, you know, it's always like
17:50you're in a room for 10 to 12 hours a day
17:52for months on end.
17:54You gotta be able to have the levity.
17:56You gotta be able to make up like a little game
17:58where you shoot water bottles into the recycling bin
18:01and then you have a whole rules
18:02and then your assistant editors
18:04makes like a 12-page document by law system.
18:07You know, you gotta have all of these things
18:09to keep it kind of like, I don't know.
18:12I think creativity comes out when you distract yourself.
18:16It's like you can sit there and focus on like
18:18what's the best version, what's the best version?
18:19And it's almost like the walk to the 7-Eleven
18:22for Coke Zero is what unlocks the scene.
18:26Absolutely.
18:27Well, I did not have an assistant editor on this project.
18:33So I was my own assistant editor.
18:35Let me tell you, we didn't always get along.
18:37We got a long way less than you would think.
18:41There's a lot of beef.
18:42That we would.
18:44And don't get me wrong.
18:46I'm a highly organized person and editor
18:51and I've done a lot of assistant editor work.
18:53And so like, you know, prep,
18:55I've been such an acolyte of like prep, prep, prep.
19:00However, this one was a very accelerated post-process.
19:04So I would get to some points in the edit
19:05where I'd be like, damn it, Ben.
19:07What are you thinking?
19:09Well, now we have to go back.
19:15It's true.
19:17I love it.
19:18Well, thank you, Ernie.
19:19Thank you, Ben, so much for being here.
19:21Thank you all for joining us today.