An exploration into how creative talent are breaking new ground in engaging audiences through entertainment. Creative leaders share how they are innovating for today’s audiences.
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00:00This is my 50th year doing this, so I'm sort of celebrating at Sundance year 5-0,
00:06which is, you know, still breathing, and still vertical when I want to be.
00:12Thank you all very much for joining us for this conversation, because we are still talking about
00:34the idea of celebrating innovation and entertainment. So Marlee, I would love to start with you.
00:40Well, because you are a groundbreaker trailblazer innovator, but this time you were watching
00:47the innovation happen with your own doc. What was it like to watch the way Shoshana Stern,
00:53your director, kind of innovated with filmmaking in telling your story?
01:00Shoshana Stern, who is here tonight, there she is right here.
01:04She is a brilliant director in the approach that she took when I had a chance to tell her my story.
01:15I had nothing to do with whatever it was in making of the documentary,
01:23and as I watched the film, I was really struck by the way that I couldn't even imagine
01:33how the story could be told. I learned so much about the way she got the...
01:43This is why this happened, or that happened in my life, and she put it all together.
01:49It's why I was able to be this part of the community, or that part of the community,
01:56because of the way, the innovations that she used to create this film.
02:01There were so many different layers that she brought together in a way that we've not seen
02:05before, and once you get a chance to see it, you'll be able to see the innovative techniques
02:09that she brought to the filmmaking process. So that being said, I'm so grateful that
02:14we have a chance to see this new form. I have a much better understanding
02:19of who I am as a result of what she put on the screen, and my children got to see this
02:25at the same time the other day, and it really got to them, and it made a huge impact,
02:32and we're all able to come together and understand where I've been going. Mom goes to work every day.
02:37Mom comes home every day. What does she do? We don't know, but now we can see it in this film,
02:42and it's been great. The bottom line is that I'm very, very proud of this documentary that
02:49Shoshana created, and I can't thank her enough. Thank you, Shoshana, for directing it. Thank you,
02:53Actual Films, and beyond. Thank you.
02:55Thank you. I will tease just a little bit, because you're wearing the color purple today,
03:06a nice little lavender. Part of the innovation of this film is the idea that it is captioned,
03:13but it's also captioned in color, and the captions are a part of the actual design
03:20of the film, and just a beautiful, again, way of showing all of the different ways,
03:25because the idea is innovation is just supposed to make our storytelling richer, and Roy, I'm
03:31curious for you, and in the various forms of entertainment that you participate in,
03:37how do you find yourself continually innovating as a storyteller?
03:43I think that the technology gap between the studios and independent filmmakers and creators,
03:48that gap is starting to close a little bit, and so I think that you have the ability, at minimum,
03:54even if it's just to make a short, to do something that has some degree of quality to it. The green
04:00screens are getting a little bit better. The way you can comp stuff into a shot is getting a little
04:04bit better. There's people that are experimenting with volume stages, and in New York City,
04:09where I live, a lot of younger filmmakers have figured out that a lot of the ... Like at NYU
04:15in Columbia, they have all of this tech, but not enough people there to use it, so what I've also
04:21noticed, because of the budget limitations, when we talk about innovation, it's not just technological,
04:26but it's also about communication and connecting, and there's a lot more collaboration than,
04:30say, when I started. I started in journalism and theater in Tallahassee, and so that wasn't ...
04:36It wasn't the same level of cooperation. You saw people as competition, or I'm going to be better
04:43than you, and now there's a lot more of a collaborative spirit, which I think is a beautiful
04:48thing. Amy, I'm curious what innovation looked like for you in this documentary. Well, for me,
04:58it always starts with story and emotion, and I spent five years making this film for lots of
05:04different reasons. The pandemic slowed things down a little bit, but once we got the narrative
05:10together, and once I really got the feelings that I wanted to get in the audio sense, then it was
05:16all about the visuals, and working with Archive gave me an opportunity to really dig in and try
05:24to create scenes out of ... There was this crazy story that Ben Harper, the singer, told me about
05:30Jeff Buckley, that I wanted to make this film because he told me this crazy story about Jeff
05:36climbing up on the rafters at a festival that they played at together, and my archivist found
05:42that there was hot air balloon footage from that actual day, and we found a video of Jeff on the
05:50top of these rafters in 1994, and so suddenly you start with the story. You then go
05:57dig as far as you can, and then I also collaborated with this incredible animator named Sara Gunnarsdottir,
06:02who's Icelandic, and we wanted to stick to the era, and we really dug into 1990s visuals,
06:10which is actually becoming a thing right now. It's very popular right now, so we kind of
06:15really embellished that, and so that was my process in this particular film.
06:21Harry, I'm curious for you also, especially on the acting side of things as well,
06:28how do you kind of continuously innovate as a performer too?
06:34Well, thanks everybody for coming tonight. I'm not an expert.
06:42This is my 50th year doing this, so I'm sort of celebrating at Sundance year 5-0,
06:49which is, you know, still breathing, and still vertical when I want to be,
06:56but I'm very excited about what's happening right now, and particularly AI is going to play
07:02heavily into what we're going to see in the next 10 to 20 years, but in 2014, Randall Kleiser,
07:08who directed Grease, came to me and said he was making the very first VR live-action film,
07:16and so we made this movie using a camera that was shaped like a bowling ball with
07:23lenses all around it, and we did it in five minute increments, and the movie is available
07:29to this day. I think you can download it and you can put it into one of those things that you can
07:34buy from Meta and watch this VR movie. Now, having seen it, I don't think that VR is necessarily
07:43the right format for live action, but I do think that there are going to be a lot of advances
07:50in VR coming up over the next five to ten years that are going to probably make something like
07:56the Metaverse possible, and during the pandemic, I got way into the Metaverse, and I hired this
08:04company to build me a Metaverse, and I paid them a shit ton of money, and they gave me this whole
08:10this thing of how they're going to, you know, we were going to have an island in the South Pacific,
08:14and my wife and I were going to live there, and we were going to be able to sell shit from the
08:19island, and it was supposed to happen in six months, and then eight months, and then 12 months,
08:28and then 16 months, and then 18 months, and then 24 months, and finally I said, fuck this,
08:35and I moved on, but these people are eventually going to do this, and I think in terms of
08:42innovation, that, you know, take AI, you couple it with VR, you couple it with compression technology,
08:49which ultimately will allow a totally immersive 3D experience for the audience, which I think
08:57will be amazing when it happens. That's my two cents. I felt like that was maybe 25 cents.
09:03That sounds, I mean, it's very exciting, the idea of where we can go, and what the next five
09:11to ten years look like, but as much as we are innovating, we are also still, you know, continuing
09:17on in our classical ways of things. You know, we still are talking about the theatrical experience,
09:24for example. Tom, yes, I'm looking down there to you. You know, as you look at the landscape and
09:30innovating, and also looking at your storytellers as innovators, what has stood out to you
09:37as you've kind of been evaluating what is coming out in our filmmaking landscape?
09:44As the founder of Neon, you know, we started a company that was wholly built on the power of
09:49cinema, that what happens in theater, what happens on screen, is better than anything else in the
09:54world. It's the only time we get an audience's undivided attention, which in the world that we
09:59currently live, besieged by content everywhere, the algorithm seeps into our brain from every corner.
10:06This is the one place that we felt was sacred, and we were going to dedicate whatever we could
10:11to bring films from all over the world to represent that. And so here we sit eight years
10:16later, and this company, the studio is 60 people, and we really sit at the same table as all the
10:23other studios. We've just made our biggest film, by Boots Riley, called Boosters, on the same sound
10:31stage where they made Black Panther, starring Kiki Palmer. And so for this company to be doing that,
10:38combined with, you know, embracing incredible cinema like Enora by Sean Baker, his 30-year
10:45journey as an independent auteur, now having accomplished six Oscar nominations, and making
10:52this movie on the streets of New York, which honestly is as classic as, you know, any movie
10:58that was made in the 70s in New York, but storytelling is as old as Aristotle, and the
11:04basics still apply. And I'm just so happy that sometimes what appears to be old is frankly new
11:11and exceptional. And the other thing that is truly innovative is audiences' tastes and interests in
11:17innovative, groundbreaking cinema. And so there's a very young, excitable
11:25group of cinephiles that, you know, congregate on Letterboxd, and they are very, very powerful.
11:32And I think the future of cinema looks great.
11:41That's a very interesting idea that you mentioned, that idea of things like Letterboxd. I am really
11:47curious how, as you were actually saying just a moment ago, Roy, the communication element
11:52of the fact that you can get on that platform, see what other people like, see what other people,
11:59and start connecting with those other audience members. How do you see something like a
12:04Letterboxd, or some of the other innovations that we're seeing online? I don't know if it's
12:11creating more opportunities for filmmakers? Yes. Yeah, it's for sure creating more opportunities,
12:17but I think it's also creating more places for new stories to be broken. I can't speak for where
12:23the industry is going to be going, you know, in a year or two, but if we're just speaking from
12:28the television side, you know, they're hedging bets. It's not a lot of dice rolling on new ideas
12:34and new concepts unless you have a big name attached on the producer or the performance
12:39side of the game. So the idea of where do we kind of, I don't know, beta test these new concepts and
12:47see how it could possibly work, I think that that's something that's going to have to happen,
12:53and that's going to be on the newer filmmakers to ideate, because the idea of bankrolling three,
12:59four million dollars on something just to see if the technology is worthwhile, which is a lesson
13:05that I think a lot of people learned in the metaverse during COVID as well, I think that it
13:10creates an opportunity for almost like a little bit of a farm system, much in a way that podcasting
13:15has become a bit of a feeder system into linear television talk shows, or the idea that if you do
13:22this yourself, then eventually it could be acquired and given a boost of income to boost the quality of it.
13:29Tom, I will ask you, how do you decide when to roll the dice?
13:33To assume that you know is a fool's errand, but to have a vision and a belief in a slate of films,
13:42and to have a point of view, and to be attracted to other filmmakers who also have a very clear,
13:47strong point of view, you have to take risk. We have a very expensive musical that we produced,
13:53which was an homage to Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals about a billionaire former oil executive
14:00who bunkered in the potential future Armageddon. Now, that doesn't sound very commercial,
14:06and I will tell you that the film was well received by half of the critics and not well
14:13received by the other half of the critics because it was making an extraordinarily bold statement,
14:19and I think in the aggregate, if we believe in something and we believe that
14:28our channels, that we have a canvas too as a distributor, as a studio, I think our slate of films,
14:34if they do matter, they will appeal to audiences and we will be successful. The eclecticism
14:40across our slate, it includes movies like Long Legs, which is by an incredible director and
14:48sits right next to Seat of the Sacred Fig by Muhammad Rasul, who made the film in Iran
14:55in secret while under threat of persecution and escaped the country. So, I ultimately think that
15:03if you truly believe in the power of cinema and you have a vision about what you can stand for,
15:14you will persevere.
15:22Marlee, I'm curious about what rolling the dice looks like for you. I like this idea
15:27really as a conversation point for all of us, but I go to you next, Marlee, because I feel
15:33in a lot of the ways we've seen you innovate as a storyteller by becoming a producer and also by
15:41directing. How have you personally rolled the dice in your career?
15:52I just love what I do, so I take chances and I don't let people
16:01define me. I've been in this business for 40 years and people have said to me,
16:10you know what, Marlee, how are you able, because you're deaf, I mean, how do you do this or how do
16:17you do that? Or, well, do you think you could try this? You're surrounded by all these hearing people
16:26and I just say I can't. So, I guess my best approach is, you know, with someone like Shoshana
16:37Stern on board, I mean, being such a brilliant writer, when I asked her to direct this documentary,
16:43she'd never directed before, and I said, okay, this is what I've done, this is what she can do.
16:50I mean, I believe in her and that's what it takes. It's about taking risks. You need to start
16:55somewhere and you need to take a risk. Everyone has to do the same thing. So, as far as this does,
17:01this doc is brilliantly directed. We took a risk and now here we are. Here we are at Sundance.
17:06So, that's the proof of the pudding. So, I just go with it. I just persevere, as I said.
17:11That's why I have tattooed on my wrist right here.
17:14Are you, Marlee, are you seeing the entertainment industry starting to also take that same risk?
17:22Because I do wonder, you know, after CODA was here, won the audience award, went on to win
17:27the Academy Award, how much change and or resistance change? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, three.
17:36I was just meaning best picture, but I shouldn't, I shouldn't.
17:39I was just meaning best picture, but I shouldn't, I shouldn't. It's very important, actually.
17:47How much, how much change or rather resistance or I'm sorry, how much opportunity or resistance
17:54to creating opportunity have you seen for other deaf performers since?
17:58Both, both. I can be honest, I'm not happy with the way things are. I think it's simply because
18:05the, I don't know how this industry works to this day. You know, you win an Academy Award,
18:15everybody's so excited. Oh, that's great. Things are going to change. It's fantastic.
18:20You're going to be working. Offers are going to come in and they didn't. Yes,
18:25you'll be on that high of, you know, it lasts maybe a short little time and then
18:30something comes up again a little while later. So what I do is I have to do it myself. I create
18:39my own projects. I have a lot of projects on my plate and I'm still knocking on doors saying,
18:44hey, look, here's this project, here's this project, here's this project. And studios,
18:47we set meetings and they'll say, yes, well, we have a character who's deaf in this one little
18:54project that's animated and we've checked that box up. So perhaps another time. And then we get
18:59the same answer from another studio or the studio head leaves and then that project falls by the
19:03wayside. But there are hearing movies made all the time about the same sort of subjects. So
19:15what's the problem? And I still have to knock on doors.
19:23And all I can say is that you always have to have someone who believes in you
19:35and say, let's do it. Let's go for it. I'll write it for you or I'll collaborate with you.
19:42But it takes more work. Sometimes you get a little tired, but that's okay. I know there's
19:49somebody in this room who that I could probably after this meeting today, we could talk about
19:53that kind of stuff. And that's, that is truly the thing. And that is truly why all of you are on
20:02this panel is because you have all kind of continued to make a way to find a way to tell
20:08the story that somebody else has not particularly been interested in telling. Or Amy, you know,
20:16the Jeff Buckley documentary, I know that was a passion project for you. You've been trying to
20:20tell this story for some time now. What has that looked like for you as you've kind of continued
20:26to, in this case, it was knocking on a very specific door, his mother's,
20:31but to knock on doors to make these movies happen? Well, for this particular film, there was
20:37definitely a lot of questions of why now when I started chopping it around five years ago.
20:43I'm halfway through making the film when there's a teenage girl love Jeff Buckley right now. And
20:52there was like, he started trending on TikTok for like 400 million people are following Jeff Buckley
20:58on TikTok suddenly. And I'm like halfway through this film. And I just think it's kind of going
21:02back to what Tom was saying earlier is that good art is the basics back to the basics is what you
21:08said. And I think like good art will sell no matter what. And in line with what Marlee was
21:14just saying as well. I mean, if you can get your film to the finish line and showcase it somewhere
21:19like this, then you have a chance to actually reach audiences and buyers in a unique way where
21:25you're not just pitching it, you know? So this was a blessing for me that Topic Studios and Fremantle
21:31actually came in and financed my film. I haven't done this for a while where I'm here with a film
21:37for sale. And it's so invigorating. It's like we did it ourself. We made, I got to make the movie I
21:44wanted to make. And it really, last night was our premiere and it was just incredible. I just,
21:50the reaction, you know, people were crying in the bathroom and it was just wonderful to feel
21:56that the true art spoke to our audience. So I'm excited for you guys to see it.
22:01Harry, as you said, you're celebrating 5-0 in the entertainment business. I mean, what has,
22:09what is maybe the, what is your greatest innovation? What is the thing that you are most proud of in
22:15terms of, you know, quite frankly, having any sort of longevity in this business is absolutely to
22:21be commended and exciting. How have you, what are you most proud of in navigating this
22:27landscape? Well, I think, speaking as an actor, as Marlee, maybe you'll agree, I think as actors, we're all
22:34entrepreneurs from the beginning. And it's really because it's an entrepreneurial profession, we're
22:41always having to innovate. We're always having to take risks. And when you're an entrepreneur,
22:45risk is the main objective. Because without risk, no reward. And, you know, I think
22:53I could look back on my career and pretty much every time I've taken a leap of faith and
22:59risked something big, it's had a tremendous effect on my career and pushed me into another level.
23:04I did a film in 1981 called Making Love, which was the first studio picture involving a gay love
23:11story. And every, all of my friends told me, you can't do that. It'll ruin your career if you do
23:16that. They offered it to every other actor in Hollywood before they came to me. But I saw it as an amazing opportunity to actually do a film about something that was really happening in the world, but that nobody really wanted to talk about. It was a subject that was so swept under the rug at the time in the early 80s, that we needed to come out into the sunshine. And I took that risk, and I was
23:25completely changed my career, but changed it in a really, really great way. And to this day,
23:53not a week goes by when somebody doesn't come up to me at a market or a movie theater or somewhere and say, thank you so much for making that film. So to have been able to make a movie that changes people's lives, give people hope, gives them kind of a ticket to ride, if you will, it's an amazing experience. So I would say that as an actor, the more we innovate, the more risks we take, the better off we will be. And it's better for the entire industry as well.
24:24Roy, I hand that same question essentially to you as well, as you kind of continue to innovate and take risks and give performances and films that maybe are unexpected. What does that look like for you?
24:44Well, with Love, Brooklyn, so Steven Soderbergh is one of our executive producers. I worked with him on some before that. He puts me in touch with Andre Holland, who I knew from back home in Birmingham. And he came to me and the film, you know, is essentially, it's a love story, but it's not in the sense of there is a will they or won't they, there's not a villain. Like, it's just people existing in love and the complicated pockets of it.
25:15And Andre presented an opportunity for me to be kind of a comedic foil in a way to his character, but not in the traditional sense. Like, for 25 years of stand up comedy, you would expect, at least I expected when reading it, a much larger, bombastic, more Anthony Anderson, blackish type situation.
25:42And I'm not, that's not a knock on Anthony, I'm just saying performatively.
25:45No, but you got to straighten it out. You don't want to be on Twitter tomorrow.
25:52It was an opportunity to exist in a place performatively, that was a lot more still
25:57than where I normally get to exist. And the fact that Rachel Abigail Holder, our director, and the
26:04fact that Andre Holland, they both trusted me to do that, when you look at my resume performatively,
26:12there's not enough things in my resume that would suggest he could do that. But they took a chance
26:19on me, so then it's on me to take a chance on actually nailing the performance and the subtleties
26:23of it to find more individual pockets of humor, just when you're not talking versus when you
26:29actually are. And it was fun. I will say I've seen it. You can say
26:34that has been achieved. It is an incredible film. And I'm so grateful to all of you for sharing just
26:39this little tidbit of your experience. And basically, I do leave everyone with that idea
26:46that you all have said, which is that storytelling is the key. It is kind of the most basic element
26:52of this. But when we take risks, when we try new things, when we tell new stories, that is where
27:01the real gold is found. So thank you all for all the ways you've brought us some gold, some gems
27:06here today. Thank you, Marlee. Thank you, Roy. Thank you, Amy. Thank you, Harry. Thank you, Tom.
27:12And thank you all.