Variety & Audible will join forces once again to host two Cocktails & Conversations panel events, providing festival goers an opportunity to listen in on exclusive in-depth conversations from today’s most notable creatives across various entertainment mediums, moderated by Variety journalists.
Category
✨
PeopleTranscript
00:00People want to be around other people that are doing cool shit.
00:02It's fun to be a part of something that also feels that way.
00:05Like, you're doing a fun thing. Come do this fun thing with us.
00:07Come play with us. It's fun. Come hang out.
00:10And you get paid.
00:23Well, thank you so much, everybody, for coming to join us.
00:25And actually, Kate, I'm going to start with you.
00:28Because this series is kind of an example of
00:31all of the breadth of work you all do over at Audible.
00:35And the idea that, like, this is...
00:37When we have, you know, audio drama, if you will,
00:39it's kind of hearkening back to the olden days
00:42of our, you know, radio plays and things.
00:44But this one is quite literally set in the olden days.
00:47So why was The Big Lie and now The Big Fix
00:52really, you know, the perfect series for Audible?
00:57There's a bunch of reasons for that.
00:58When I met with Jon Mankiewicz first,
01:00his passion for The Big Lie, which was the first season,
01:04meant a lot to me.
01:05Because when a creator comes with that passion,
01:07you know they're going to want to get it right.
01:09It's a story that he had access to.
01:12It was an untold story, which he had a personal connection to.
01:15You know that's going to end up with something really great.
01:17And it's a genre that works really well with our audience.
01:20So the vision for it, the passion for it,
01:22and, of course, something that performs well.
01:25Great combination.
01:26And then I have to say, that was obviously for The Big Lie,
01:29we had the best time making The Big Lie together.
01:31It was an amazing collaboration.
01:33So we hadn't even finished it yet when Jon said,
01:35I have an idea for number two.
01:38And it was a good idea, that's the good news,
01:40but probably would have said yes either way.
01:42Let's actually, Jon, you're here.
01:45Oh, literally right there, right in front of my face.
01:48Oh!
01:49He wrote it.
01:50All right.
01:53Well, I then turned to my other Jon,
01:55the one who is up here on the stage with me.
01:58What was it about the initial premise of this series
02:04that made you so interested in playing Jack Burgett?
02:08Well, I have a pretty deep history with both Jon and Aaron.
02:14They worked with me on my very first television show I was on
02:18called The Division for Lifetime Network.
02:21I know all of you are great fans.
02:24Both Lifetime Network and shows about lady detectives.
02:33But I got to know both of these gentlemen off of that show,
02:36and the idea was kicking around for the better part of 20 years.
02:40And it was originally pitched as a feature film,
02:43which couldn't get made for various reasons,
02:45because of all the reasons, as you know,
02:47coming to a festival like Sundance,
02:49that makes features very difficult to make.
02:53But then this idea came around about maybe doing it
02:56as an audio play, as a podcast,
02:59and really the idea and the critical mass that has come from
03:04the technology available and the accessibility of these kinds of things.
03:09I listen to so many podcasts now,
03:12and if you flash back to 10 years ago,
03:14podcasts were like, what is a podcast?
03:16Who cares?
03:18So now it's become such a big part of our entertainment menu, so to speak.
03:23And they came with a very creative and very compelling story.
03:28So I was like, yeah, I trust these guys.
03:30I've worked with them before.
03:32I know they'll bring some other tremendous talent to the recipe.
03:37And let's cook, man.
03:39It was exciting.
03:41So that's what it really was.
03:43It's a fun story.
03:46It's kind of a lost segment of the history of Los Angeles,
03:51which is deeply resonant, I think, to a lot of people.
03:54And there's so much more there to tell.
03:57So I'm happy to be a part of it, and hopefully it'll continue.
04:01Erin, actually thinking back to those division days,
04:04did you already know that he had the voice to do something like this?
04:07Absolutely.
04:09What was it about the idea of bringing this to an audio medium
04:14that really excited you?
04:17Well, first, probably some of the things that John referred to,
04:20which was when we couldn't make it as a movie,
04:23the idea that we could still tell the story.
04:25And I just want to go back a little bit.
04:27The Big Lie was the story of, based on a true story,
04:30of the making of a movie called The Salt of the Earth,
04:33which is a historic movie for a number of reasons.
04:36But in our case, it was made by three blacklisted filmmakers
04:40telling the story of a mine worker's strike
04:43in southern New Mexico in the early 50s.
04:46And Paul Jericho, who produced that movie,
04:48had the idea for a story about the detective,
04:51the story of the FBI agent,
04:53who was charged with the task of making that movie not happen.
04:58It was considered subversive, it was considered communist.
05:01So that was a very compelling story that we all wanted to tell
05:04and felt it was important to tell.
05:06And the fact that we could make it for Audible,
05:10and that meant not only getting the story told,
05:13but it was a format that allowed John particularly
05:16to expand the story into eight, well, that was seven episodes,
05:20but a four-hour story, which you get a lot more detail
05:23and a lot more character and a lot more nuance
05:25than you can in a feature film.
05:27So it was really, you know, an opportunity that we couldn't pass up.
05:32And plus, both John and I had never worked in this medium before.
05:36So, okay, let's try that, you know?
05:41And it's also, when you work in movies or television
05:47and the kind of first rule is show, don't tell.
05:52And you come around to doing an audio drama
05:57and there's nothing to show.
05:59You have to create it all out of just voices, sounds, storytelling.
06:04And that was a challenge that, you know,
06:06all three of those things just made it, like, irresistible.
06:08Absolutely. I mean, Ana, you got a chance to be a part of now both series.
06:14What was it initially that made you excited
06:17about playing a character like Lala?
06:20The character is great and also, you know,
06:23we shot this the first season during the pandemic,
06:25so it was the biggest gift ever.
06:29You know, my agents call me, like, they're offering you this.
06:32I'm like, whatever, like, please.
06:35I need to get out of here.
06:36You'll be out of the house.
06:38I want to get out of my house.
06:40And then I was like, every week,
06:42and also we record everything together in the same room.
06:47And so it was great because, you know, we're like,
06:52obviously I was, you know, very nervous.
06:55I've never met John, and he was incredible to work with.
06:58And he has, obviously, this great, huge personality and beautiful voice.
07:04So I was so happy to go.
07:11Yeah, it's funny because actually in this second season,
07:16it's funny just to watch him do the scenes,
07:19like, you know, like super handsome and everything.
07:23And he was like...
07:28But then he was wearing flip-flops.
07:29As opposed to.
07:30As opposed to, but, like, in the character and then wearing flip-flops.
07:32So I had to be, like, you know, like, focused on, like,
07:35okay, I'm working with this guy, very serious,
07:38and then didn't want to look at his feet.
07:43It took me out of character, you know.
07:48Anyway, we're thinking about probably doing a comedy after this.
07:53But, yeah, it was a great gift for me.
07:55And working with Aaron, like, he's been so lovely.
07:58Like, every step of the way, he would, like,
08:01direct contact on anything I needed for the character.
08:05So, yeah, it was great to do this job.
08:08And now to be here, so, yeah.
08:10I mean, that is kind of the fun of this,
08:12that in the first installment, an FBI agent,
08:15in this installment, now a private detective,
08:17can also just wear flip-flops to work.
08:20Doesn't suck.
08:23Ollie, was that the reason why you wanted to join
08:25for the second installment John told you about the dress code?
08:28I love flip-flops.
08:31No, I mean, it was such a cool opportunity.
08:34It's a really great job,
08:36and just to get to work with rad people in this kind of format,
08:41especially when you're in between jobs,
08:42because, as John said, it is really hard to get movies made.
08:45And so it's a shame when a creative idea can get lost.
08:48And you're like, oh, it takes so much effort and money and timing
08:51to get something made.
08:52But to be able to refashion it in something
08:54that so many more people can hear now,
08:56and you can get amazing talent, and we can work together,
08:58it's like, it's really a gift.
09:00And it's a great way of making lemonade out of lemons
09:05or audible out of sounds or something.
09:10Keep going with that.
09:11Yeah, yeah.
09:12Give me a second.
09:13I'm going to workshop some stuff.
09:14Kate, you have trained us well.
09:17Tell me a little bit about that idea
09:18of being able to record together,
09:20because a lot of times,
09:21especially when we're talking about voice work,
09:23it's a lot of alone in the sound booth.
09:26But what you guys are doing, it's definitely different.
09:29John, what was it like for you when you heard
09:31that it was going to be this way instead of the other?
09:34Well, I was thrilled.
09:35I mean, I've done several mostly animated things
09:38where you're kind of in a silo,
09:40and all of a sudden you go,
09:42hey, I worked with you on that movie,
09:43but I've never met you.
09:46So this is better in every way.
09:50But mostly because the story is so intimate
09:52in a lot of ways that it's super helpful
09:55to have the personal connection
09:57with the person that you're acting opposite.
09:59So you see them across the room,
10:00and you're talking to them,
10:01and you can understand, okay,
10:02I'm in real time reacting to what's happening.
10:05It is like being on camera,
10:07even though it's not on camera.
10:08So it's helpful for the portrayal of the scene,
10:12but it's also more fun.
10:14I mean, honestly, it's like sitting in a booth
10:17by yourself is challenging.
10:20Because you have to kind of go,
10:21okay, well, I'm imagining what they're,
10:23it's like doing the other side of a phone call
10:25with someone that's not on the phone.
10:28You don't know what they're saying
10:30or how they're playing the scene.
10:32So this is tremendously, it was a gift,
10:35and I'm glad that Aaron really,
10:37look, it all comes down to scheduling, right?
10:40Getting two people in the same place
10:41is difficult in the best of circumstances.
10:44When you factor in the pandemic and everything,
10:46it made it weirdly easier and harder
10:48because everybody was available.
10:50Wildly, deeply available.
10:56But also, the distancing and the stuff
11:00made that challenging in a different way.
11:03So it was, it was great.
11:05I was glad that that was the choice that was made
11:07and then stuck to and fought for.
11:10Aaron, why was that so important for you
11:12initially, creatively, that you wanted
11:14to make that mandate?
11:16First of all, like I said, we'd never done it before.
11:19And when we got this assumption,
11:23we were confronted with the assumption that,
11:25well, you know, it's a pandemic
11:26and nobody wants to leave their house
11:28and everybody's got a booth at home.
11:30Everybody knows how to do this.
11:31And if they don't, we send them a mic and a kit.
11:33And I was just, my jaw kind of dropped
11:36because, for me, part of the work,
11:40a lot of the work, most of the work
11:42of directing is collaborating.
11:44And most of collaborating is the surprises
11:47that you get from collaborating.
11:49And the idea of saying, okay,
11:52we'll have John for four days
11:53and he'll record everything,
11:54and then everyone else will kind of come in.
11:57It was, I mean, literally, it was incomprehensible to me.
11:59I just couldn't imagine how that would work.
12:02And there was a little resistance
12:05because it was a pandemic.
12:06We had to figure out, okay,
12:07everybody had to get tested every morning,
12:08even to do sound, you know?
12:10Nobody's having contact,
12:11but we still had to go through those protocols.
12:13But to be able to have, watch, you know,
12:21people who are supposed to be
12:23in close, intense relationships
12:26play those relationships.
12:28And the other thing that was great,
12:29and I've never mentioned this to John,
12:32but I noticed when you're on a set,
12:35generally, if you're directing actors
12:36and you do a take, you know,
12:38you're gonna do a master,
12:39you're gonna do close-ups,
12:40and you do a close-up,
12:41and then you go up to the actor and say,
12:42you know, I really want you to,
12:44and it's very kind of like secretive.
12:46And here, we're sitting,
12:48we're in a studio, a recording studio,
12:50and John's at one mic,
12:51and Anna's at one mic,
12:52and somebody else might be at the third mic,
12:53and I'll be sitting there,
12:54and I'll say out loud,
12:56you know, Anna, in this section here,
12:58could you just try,
12:59and I would realize, of course,
13:01because John can hear what I'm telling her.
13:03Sure, sure.
13:04So he's saying, oh, he wants her to do this,
13:06so I can do this,
13:07and that'll help both of us get there.
13:09And it just occurred to me that,
13:11why don't we do that all the time?
13:12Why don't we, you know,
13:13why not open the door
13:14so all the actors can work together?
13:16It was like a breakthrough for me,
13:17but it's,
13:20I'll just get back to what I said,
13:21the idea of recording one at a time
13:23and having no interplay and no surprises,
13:27you know, what he does surprises her,
13:29what she does back,
13:30oh, maybe that'll make,
13:32and plus, you know,
13:33you're not rolling film,
13:34you're not waiting for makeup,
13:35you're not waiting for hair.
13:36You can say, okay, great,
13:37let's just do it again,
13:38and you could keep mics open
13:39and, you know, get it done and play.
13:42It was really...
13:43You have to step up your game also,
13:44because, like,
13:45I was used to just to record by myself,
13:48and if you made a mistake,
13:49you're alone, no one's judging you,
13:51you know, and like,
13:52you have great actors around you,
13:54and you're like,
13:55you have to also like,
13:56I have like,
13:57I was acting over acting,
13:58like, acting the role
13:59and acting like I was,
14:00I've got this, you know,
14:01like, I've never done this,
14:02but, you know,
14:03I'm just like,
14:04as cool as these guys are,
14:05so I was just like all the time,
14:07you know,
14:08trying to step up my game,
14:10because they have incredible,
14:13you know, performances too, yeah.
14:16And to that end,
14:17you know,
14:18just to brag on Aaron a little more,
14:20and his...
14:22The depth of our relationship
14:24goes back 20-some odd years,
14:25but Aaron's been working in television
14:27for even longer than that,
14:29and we together,
14:30along with John,
14:31know a tremendous amount of people,
14:34so the people we got
14:35to come in to do five lines,
14:37to do two scenes,
14:38to do one thing,
14:39we get these people
14:40to come in here like,
14:41oh my God,
14:42I love your work,
14:43like, it's so great.
14:44People come in.
14:45People respect Aaron's body of work,
14:48and they want to work with him again,
14:50and it was so fun to just,
14:52and again,
14:53to see those people in real time,
14:55God, I'm so excited
14:56to get to work with you.
14:57This is really great.
14:58The fact is,
14:59if you call up someone and say,
15:00I'm doing this thing for Audible,
15:02John Hamm is in it.
15:03He's here.
15:04He's trying to get to you.
15:05Check, please.
15:06But it's true.
15:07I mean,
15:08between the two series,
15:09they have people
15:10like Bradley Whitford
15:11and Giancarlo Sposito
15:12and Omar Epps
15:13and Gene Triplehorn
15:14and Leland Orser,
15:15and I can go on and on,
15:16and people come in,
15:17and they spend two hours,
15:18and just,
15:19it was so much fun.
15:20Yeah,
15:21the guest stars are great.
15:22I mean,
15:23Aaron worked on a little bit
15:24of his own stuff,
15:25and he's been doing
15:26a lot of his own stuff,
15:27and he's been doing
15:28a lot of his own stuff,
15:29and he's been doing
15:30a lot of his own stuff,
15:31and he's been doing
15:32a lot of his own stuff,
15:33and he's been doing
15:34a lot of his own stuff,
15:35and he's been doing
15:36a lot of his own stuff,
15:37and he's been doing
15:38a lot of his own stuff,
15:39and he's been doing
15:40a lot of his own stuff.
15:41And, you know,
15:42Aaron worked on a little show
15:43called Miami Vice.
15:44Maybe you've heard of it.
15:45The greatest list of guest stars
15:46in the history of television,
15:47because everybody
15:48came through that show,
15:49and it was like
15:50from Julia Roberts
15:51to Ben Stiller
15:52to Frank Zappa
15:53to, you know,
15:54everybody,
15:55and you go,
15:56that's awesome
15:57because people want to be around
15:58other people
15:59that are doing cool shit,
16:00and in the 80s,
16:01it was something
16:02that also feels that way.
16:03Like, you're doing a fun thing.
16:04Come do this fun thing with us.
16:05Come play with us.
16:06It's fun.
16:07Come hang out.
16:08And you get paid.
16:09I mean, that doesn't hurt.
16:10And you get paid.
16:11Boom!
16:12Sorry.
16:13I got paid.
16:14I was going to ask, John,
16:15I was going to ask, John,
16:16I was going to ask, John,
16:17if you made any
16:18personal phone calls
16:19to get people on board,
16:20but I clearly can see
16:21that you left something out
16:22of the text message
16:23to all of you.
16:24Yeah, it's okay.
16:25I'm going to follow up.
16:26Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:27We'll sidebar on that.
16:28Now that you know,
16:30Now that you know.
16:31But, yeah, what was that like
16:32for you to come in?
16:33Because, I mean,
16:34you're not a guest star.
16:35You're a new lead
16:36of the second installment,
16:38but, you know,
16:39what was it like
16:40to come into this playground
16:41where so many people
16:42had kind of already
16:43dropped their lines and voices?
16:46Yeah, I mean,
16:47it's always a little nerve-wracking
16:49just to be like,
16:50okay, you know,
16:51you're around, like,
16:52series regulars,
16:53and you're just like,
16:54I want to find the flow of it,
16:55but it was so welcoming.
16:56I've known John for a long time,
16:57and Aaron was, like,
16:58so helpful in, like,
16:59really guiding me
17:00every step of the way
17:01because it's a lot of content
17:02to take in
17:03in a short period of time,
17:04so he's like,
17:05this is the setup.
17:06This is where we are.
17:07This is emotional.
17:08You know, he was, like,
17:09really not holding the hand,
17:10but, like, really helping,
17:11making it clear where we were,
17:12and then also,
17:13I really warmed up.
17:14You know, by the end,
17:15you were like,
17:16let's go back to the beginning
17:17because now you found Aggie,
17:18and I'm like,
17:19yeah, that's right.
17:20Here she is, you know.
17:21But, like,
17:22it took me a second
17:23to get there, you know,
17:24and that part
17:25was really fun, too.
17:26Like, to do
17:27this kind of 1940s,
17:28like, character,
17:29it was really fun.
17:30Yeah.
17:31Actually,
17:32can you kind of preview
17:33for everyone
17:34who Aggie is?
17:35Oh, gosh, yeah.
17:36I mean, that was her.
17:37I mean, she's a reporter
17:41who's trying to get
17:44the best story, right,
17:46but isn't given
17:47the best opportunities,
17:48and I think she has
17:49a good heart,
17:50but she has to be competitive,
17:51and she reminds me
17:52of kind of, like,
17:53My Girl Friday,
17:54you know, that film,
17:55and Rosalind Russell type,
17:57and she's, you know, sassy
17:59and comes, you know,
18:01into fisticuffs,
18:02you could say.
18:03Is that right?
18:04Sure.
18:05Yeah, sure.
18:06Fisticuffs.
18:07But, yeah,
18:08she's a really fun character.
18:10Absolutely.
18:11I mean, listen,
18:12I was a fan
18:13for obvious reasons.
18:14But, Kate, I mean, yeah,
18:15tell me a little bit
18:16about that idea
18:17of this is the kind of world
18:19where any and everybody
18:21can come in,
18:22and also everyone's excited
18:23to come in
18:24and play around.
18:26Yeah, we've been very lucky
18:28about who we've gotten
18:29to work with,
18:30and people do come in
18:31with their whole selves.
18:32I think what they've said
18:33a little bit,
18:34it's a little bit harder
18:35sometimes than people expect.
18:37This one has been so fun
18:39because of the people
18:40working on it
18:41and the collaboration,
18:42Aaron's process,
18:43all of the writers
18:44that worked on it.
18:46We've just,
18:47I know I sound sort of cheesy,
18:49but it's just been
18:50the best group of people,
18:51and we've really had that
18:52across a lot
18:53of our original projects.
18:55Really lucky with who
18:56we get to work with.
18:57And the stories
18:58that we get to tell,
18:59that's the big thing.
19:00When people come to us
19:01with something they're
19:02passionate about
19:03and is new and different,
19:04I get really jazzed.
19:05Sure.
19:06I mean, actually,
19:07who would kind of like
19:08to set up the season,
19:09or rather,
19:10the second installment
19:11story for us
19:12for those of you
19:13who maybe haven't
19:14heard the trailer yet
19:15or don't know
19:16exactly what we're exploring
19:17this go-round?
19:19You want to do it, Aaron?
19:20Well, yeah.
19:22So in The Big Lie,
19:23Jack Bergen is an FBI agent
19:25who I said is charged with
19:27basically sabotaging
19:29this subversive movie
19:31targeted by the FBI.
19:32And at the end of that,
19:34I won't give away too much,
19:35but he ends up
19:36leaving the FBI.
19:37And now we're
19:38four or five years later,
19:39he's a private investigator
19:41in Los Angeles.
19:42He's working for
19:44kind of the elite of the city,
19:48not always doing the good work
19:51that he sort of felt
19:53he was doing
19:54as an FBI agent.
19:55He was committed to that work,
19:57and now he's a little bit
19:59adrift.
20:00And Lala,
20:02who is a major player
20:03in his life
20:04and a major force of,
20:07I guess,
20:08leading him to realize
20:11the contradictions
20:12that he was dealing with,
20:13kind of does the same thing again.
20:15He's in kind of a new rut now,
20:17and she appears with a problem
20:20that he's willing to overlook,
20:22and she forces him
20:25to confront not only the problem,
20:27but what his life has become
20:28in the intervening five years.
20:30Yeah.
20:31I mean, John,
20:32what has interested you
20:33so much about Jack
20:34and the different kind of shades
20:35and complexions of his...
20:37I mean, it's...
20:38I guess maybe not his honor,
20:40but, like, what...
20:41Yeah.
20:42I mean, he's a guy
20:43that goes through the process
20:44of learning that there are
20:45other things that matter.
20:47It's not just his point of view.
20:49That is, sacrosanct truth, right?
20:51So it's a cool lesson
20:54to kind of take in
20:56as a person in the 21st century
20:57as well.
20:58So we're all kind of
20:59in this world
21:00where we think our opinion
21:01is the only opinion
21:03and that our truth
21:04is the only truth.
21:05And you realize
21:06as you get older
21:07or as you get educated
21:08or whatever,
21:09that there are tons of truths
21:11and tons of stories
21:12that are not represented
21:13or told
21:15because it's inconvenient.
21:18This particular story,
21:19The Big Fix,
21:21is about an inconvenient truth.
21:23Hey, we want to build
21:24a stadium here.
21:25Yeah, well, a bunch of people
21:26live there.
21:27Fuck them.
21:28Scrape stadium.
21:31Those people had lives
21:33and families
21:34and history
21:35and generations
21:36and culture,
21:37and that is such a huge part
21:39of Los Angeles.
21:41And it's been forgotten
21:44in a lot of ways.
21:47Ana talks about it
21:48with the Latin community
21:49especially.
21:50It's like,
21:51man, Latin people in L.A.
21:52love the fucking Dodgers.
21:54Sure.
21:55But they also are like,
21:57Chavez Ravine
21:58was kind of a huge part
21:59of our collective history
22:00as a culture.
22:01And it's important
22:02to not forget that.
22:03We talk about getting
22:04this thing made,
22:05telling this story.
22:07To make this as a movie
22:08would have cost
22:09$100 million.
22:11To make it as a podcast
22:12does not cost
22:13$100 million.
22:14I got paid $100 million.
22:16That's how the budget
22:17worked out.
22:18I gave Alia two.
22:26You can tell the stories
22:28of communities
22:30and cultures
22:32that have been marginalized
22:33in some way
22:34at a much more
22:36accessible price point.
22:38And they don't have to make
22:39tens of millions of dollars
22:41opening weekend.
22:42And they don't have to appeal
22:43to 40 million people
22:44and they don't have to appeal
22:45to four quadrants.
22:46But they can still be told.
22:48And that's, I think,
22:49what drew me to this story
22:52and this character.
22:53This guy, as Aaron said,
22:56in the first thing,
22:57he starts as a G-man.
22:58He's the FBI.
22:59He's trying to squash
23:00the thing.
23:02And he learns.
23:04He goes,
23:05well, this isn't right.
23:06This isn't okay.
23:08And he changes.
23:10Telling a story
23:11about a character that changes,
23:12that grows,
23:13is, I think,
23:14the essence of drama.
23:16And I'm going to piggyback
23:17off of that and say,
23:18and they get to be heard.
23:20It's a format that is growing
23:22so fast.
23:23We had one of our best years
23:24ever last year.
23:25We are growing steadily.
23:27And not only do we have
23:29an even larger audience,
23:31they are listening to more
23:32in their day.
23:34And so I love that we can
23:35take these stories
23:36that need to be told,
23:38that can be told so well,
23:40and give it a real big audience.
23:43It's really an exciting medium.
23:46Kate, I will ask,
23:47what have you learned
23:48about that audience
23:49and how to deliver
23:51a story like this?
23:53We've learned so much.
23:54We talk to our audience
23:56all the time in different ways.
23:57I come from the theater,
23:58so I love previews.
24:00So we have our way
24:01of figuring out
24:03our equivalent of previews
24:04and figuring out
24:05what's landing,
24:06what's not,
24:07paying attention.
24:08We know that there are
24:09customers who want it
24:10to be more like a book
24:11and a little less
24:12on the voices
24:13and the sound design.
24:14And we know how to create
24:15content that works there.
24:17And we also know
24:18that there's a huge audience
24:20for this kind of project
24:22that has an incredibly
24:24immersive sound design,
24:26has an original score.
24:27David Mansfield
24:28did both seasons.
24:30Yeah.
24:31Music number.
24:32It's so beautiful
24:33and it adds so much.
24:35The big thing I've learned
24:36is make sure
24:38that sound design, though,
24:39is supporting the story,
24:41that it's not bells and whistles,
24:42it's not for distraction.
24:44Make sure,
24:45as Aaron and Jamie know,
24:47that we talked about a lot,
24:48not too many locations
24:49because you've got to get
24:50some sound design
24:51to set you up.
24:52That turns your scene
24:53really long.
24:55So little things like that.
24:56But this is a genre
24:58that our audience
25:00just can't get enough of.
25:01Thriller, mystery,
25:02it's the specific genre.
25:04But also, you know, romance.
25:06I mean, it's just,
25:07there's not a lot from them.
25:08It's great.
25:09Well, it's a genre that's also,
25:10I guess, historically episodic.
25:12So it is something
25:13that kind of lends itself always
25:15to kind of coming back
25:17every day, week, whatever
25:19for a new installment
25:21of the story.
25:22So it is kind of perfect
25:23to continue these storylines on.
25:26And, you know, Ana,
25:27I would love to hear
25:29about the idea of getting
25:30to play Lala again.
25:32Getting to, you know,
25:33create the character
25:34and then jump into the character
25:36another time.
25:37What was that experience
25:38like for you?
25:39It's great.
25:40I love the character
25:41as I was talking earlier.
25:44You know, I...
25:46It's a gift for me, you know.
25:48She's a great woman,
25:50independent.
25:51She also, like...
25:53She's actually, like,
25:54I'm not like Lala at all.
25:55Like, she is a great driver,
25:57loves cars.
25:58I have no idea about that.
26:00Like, two, like, super hot guys
26:02are after her.
26:03Like, I have no one.
26:04Like, you know, like...
26:06Great.
26:07Like, she's living the life.
26:08Like, I was listening
26:09to the second season
26:10and then I was like,
26:11she has two lovers?
26:13Like, what?
26:14Like, I forgot about that.
26:15Like, you know, so...
26:16You know, I was like...
26:17Way to the third season.
26:18Yeah, I'm just...
26:19So...
26:20Way to part three.
26:21Way to part three.
26:22I'm very...
26:23So, you know,
26:24in my mind,
26:25I'm this character.
26:26I'm like,
26:27I'm the coolest chick,
26:28you know.
26:29And especially
26:30during the first season,
26:31during the pandemic,
26:32you know,
26:33the only part...
26:34I live by myself,
26:35so I didn't see anyone
26:36for months.
26:37I just got to see Jon Hamm.
26:38I was like...
26:39You know, like...
26:40Hi!
26:42Oh, la la!
26:43Like, you know,
26:44I get to do, like,
26:45romantic scenes with you.
26:46You know, like...
26:47So, you know,
26:48it's great to,
26:49you know, to play this role.
26:50Yeah.
26:57Alia.
27:04I am curious about...
27:09As you prepared
27:10to do your scenes each day.
27:13What...
27:14Truly, though,
27:15what is your process?
27:16Because you were talking
27:17earlier about that idea
27:18of you didn't find
27:19the character immediately,
27:21but you kind of came back
27:22to her later.
27:24What does it take
27:25to really perform
27:27a role like this?
27:29And, you know,
27:30obviously, yes,
27:31you guys have, you know,
27:32this great ability
27:33of being together,
27:34which definitely helps.
27:35But, like,
27:36where do you even start?
27:37I mean, to be honest,
27:40I've been doing this
27:41for a while.
27:43So it comes with a...
27:44It's like a trust
27:45of not knowing
27:46if that makes sense.
27:47So I kind of show up
27:48being like,
27:49I'm here.
27:50I trust you guys.
27:51What do we want
27:52to make together?
27:53The script is
27:54beautifully written,
27:55and that's the hardest part.
27:56So when the story is there,
27:58and the character is there,
27:59and I'm, like,
28:00flattered that they see
28:01Aggie and me.
28:02I see Aggie and me.
28:03So I'm like, okay, yeah,
28:04she's a part of me.
28:05How do we find it together?
28:06But it's kind of this, like,
28:07I feel like when you take
28:08the pressure off
28:09and don't come too prepared,
28:11at least for me,
28:12it works that way
28:13because it forms in the moment,
28:14and then we're kind of
28:15finding it together.
28:16So for me, it was that.
28:17It was like I'm coming in,
28:18you know, kind of cold,
28:19just like, all right,
28:20let's do this.
28:21We're in a booth.
28:22You know, we're going
28:23to be here for a while.
28:24We got snacks and water.
28:25And let's find it, you know?
28:28And then, you know,
28:29John's there in flip-flops.
28:30Yep.
28:31And...
28:32Slides.
28:33Well, because you know
28:34we're all imagining
28:35that's what this is all about.
28:36Socks.
28:37Just for turns out.
28:38Socks and slides.
28:39Well, now the record
28:40has been set, sure.
28:42Okay, fair enough, fair enough.
28:43But, you know,
28:44and the confidence
28:45that he has in the character
28:46and that Anna has,
28:47it's like I'm meeting them
28:48and I'm like, okay,
28:49I'm in good hands.
28:50And then you're just, you know,
28:51you're reacting,
28:52and for me,
28:53it's like,
28:54you know,
28:55it's like I'm meeting them
28:56and I'm like, okay,
28:57I'm in good hands.
28:58And then you're just,
28:59you know,
29:00you're reacting
29:01and finding
29:02the authenticity there.
29:03Well, and also, you know,
29:04you don't have the luxury
29:05of what you do have
29:06on a show or a movie
29:07where you go
29:08through costume fittings
29:09and you're having
29:10all these meetings
29:11and you're going,
29:12okay, this is the set,
29:13this is the thing,
29:14we're talking about this.
29:15It's, it's,
29:16none of that exists.
29:17So you just have
29:18to kind of go,
29:19because all you said,
29:20and I'm very much
29:21the same way,
29:22you kind of go,
29:23I trust you guys.
29:24What's it going to be?
29:25Yeah.
29:26Let's find it together.
29:27And that's really
29:28what it's all about.
29:29And a lot of it
29:30with audio,
29:31because you're doing really
29:32the whole thing
29:33in a matter of days.
29:34Sure.
29:35So it's not just,
29:36it's not simply
29:37finding a character,
29:38which, you know,
29:39and as you said,
29:40a lot of times it's,
29:41oh, you read
29:42this thing about
29:43the actresses,
29:44well, I put this hat on
29:45and then I found
29:46the character
29:47or these, you know,
29:48I had this,
29:49this ring
29:50and that made me realize
29:51who she was.
29:52We don't have that,
29:53but a lot of it is
29:54for me listening
29:55and for John listening
29:57is it's about tempo,
29:58it's about, you know,
29:59how's the delivery?
30:00Is it, is it crisp?
30:01Is it, is it more slurry?
30:02Is it, so,
30:03so we're listening
30:04and you're not seeing
30:05a character,
30:06you're kind of hearing it
30:07and you say,
30:08okay, now we got it.
30:09And it wasn't just,
30:10it wasn't just like
30:11all of you found
30:12the characters,
30:13we kind of,
30:14we all found Aggie
30:15and we said,
30:16okay, now we got her.
30:17Let's make her consistent.
30:18So it's, it's,
30:19it's because it's so intense.
30:20I mean, I think we did
30:21the whole show
30:22in about eight days.
30:23Wow.
30:24Yeah.
30:25And this is,
30:26let me add that
30:27this is 167 speaking parts.
30:28Sure.
30:29Wow.
30:30So, so you're going
30:31to cover a lot of ground
30:32really fast.
30:33And, but because
30:34we're sitting there
30:35in a studio all day,
30:36you can say,
30:37okay, let's try it again
30:38and, and let's,
30:39does that work better?
30:40And, you know,
30:41I still remember
30:42there's the,
30:43Aggie's opening line
30:44where she says the story
30:45and she says her name
30:46by Aggie Walker.
30:47It's, it's,
30:48it's her,
30:49by Aggie Walker.
30:50It's, it's,
30:51it's her,
30:52it's her opening line
30:53by Aggie Walker.
30:54It's, it's,
30:55it's her byline.
30:56And we did it a few times
30:57and John and I had,
30:58I'd say a few passes of,
30:59no, that's too much.
31:00No, that's not enough.
31:01Just trying to find
31:02where this character
31:03relates to the story.
31:04And, and it was really,
31:05it's, it's fun.
31:06It's fun to be able
31:07to work shit out.
31:08Yeah.
31:09Yeah.
31:10I mean, I,
31:11I am glad, Aaron,
31:12that you made it clear
31:13that John wasn't
31:14donning a fedora
31:15just in the booth.
31:16I didn't say that.
31:17Oh.
31:18No.
31:19No.
31:20No.
31:21No.
31:23Well.
31:24No hats were harmed
31:25in the making of this.
31:26No hats.
31:27But how do you all,
31:28as actors,
31:29kind of modulate that too?
31:30How did you end up
31:31finding the different ways
31:32and deliveries
31:33and, and as you were working
31:34with Aaron and,
31:35and John on,
31:36you know,
31:37how Jack was going to sound?
31:38Well, it's,
31:39it's,
31:40it's not unlike
31:41making anything.
31:42You know,
31:43there's,
31:44there's,
31:45there's the written word.
31:46Then there's what you,
31:47what you end up doing
31:48in production.
31:49And that's what happens
31:50in post.
31:51So you have these kind of
31:52three versions of it.
31:53And,
31:54and it really comes down to,
31:55I think Aliyah used
31:56the best word,
31:57trust.
31:58You go,
31:59I trust you guys.
32:00I'm only seeing
32:01my part of it, right?
32:02And I'm only seeing
32:03what I do
32:04with the other folks.
32:05I'm not seeing
32:06the big picture.
32:07That's Aaron's job.
32:08That's John's job.
32:09And you go,
32:10that's where the consistency
32:11comes in.
32:12That's where the,
32:13the shape comes in,
32:14really.
32:15And so that part of it is
32:16going, hey,
32:17I trust you to not use
32:18the shit he takes.
32:19You know,
32:20I trust you to not do
32:21the one where my voice cracks
32:22or whatever happens.
32:23And so that's,
32:24that's the,
32:25you know,
32:26that's what we're all there for
32:27to get the best version of.
32:28Exactly.
32:29Unless, of course,
32:30the voice crack was like
32:31necessary to the performance.
32:32Yes, exactly.
32:33Exactly.
32:34And,
32:35and Aaron,
32:36I'm curious,
32:37we were talking a little bit
32:38about the,
32:39the sound design of it.
32:40I mean,
32:41this is a series
32:42that does take you
32:43to a ton
32:44of different locations.
32:45You know,
32:46at one point
32:47we're in inside
32:48of Howard Hughes's plane.
32:49And you have to make it
32:50really feel like that.
32:51What,
32:52what kind of,
32:53you know,
32:54innovations and,
32:55and technologies
32:56and just generally,
32:57I don't know,
32:58tools and tricks
32:59did you all use
33:00to fill out this world?
33:01Well,
33:02part of it was,
33:03I came out of the shower.
33:04Well,
33:05it's,
33:06I mean,
33:07I,
33:08I refer to something
33:09Kate said,
33:10where you don't want
33:11to over-design it.
33:12You don't want to envelop,
33:13you know,
33:14you don't want to
33:15overwhelm the audience.
33:16And,
33:17and I refer to,
33:18Peter Bavitch,
33:19who's our sound designer,
33:20is Jack Bergen smokes.
33:23Sure.
33:24Yeah.
33:25And he lights
33:26a cigarette with a Zippo.
33:27And I want the Zippo lighter
33:29to be an avatar
33:30for this character.
33:31I want,
33:32by the,
33:33by the second episode,
33:34when you hear the flick
33:35of that cap
33:36of that lighter
33:37and the roll of the,
33:38of the rollers
33:39on the flint,
33:40and you hear the crackle
33:41of the tobacco
33:42start to ignite
33:43and you hear the inhale,
33:44you know you're with Jack.
33:45And,
33:46that's the kind of thing.
33:47It's similarly in this season
33:48where Aggie is a reporter.
33:50You hear the sound
33:51of her typing.
33:52It's a manual typewriter.
33:53It's not a computer.
33:54It's not keys on a computer.
33:55It's a manual typewriter.
33:56You imagine,
33:57you know,
33:58hopefully that takes you
33:59to a newsroom
34:00that you've seen in movies
34:01that you imagine
34:02what that sounds like.
34:03And,
34:04and the cars,
34:05you know.
34:06The heels.
34:07The heels.
34:08You know,
34:09you know Jack's car
34:10has a specific sound
34:11when he starts it up.
34:12So,
34:13so you just try
34:15to get specific things
34:17that can catch
34:18your audience's imagination
34:20and say,
34:21oh yeah,
34:22you hear that sound.
34:23Now he's,
34:24and you can spend
34:2510 seconds,
34:2615 seconds
34:27of just,
34:28you know he's thinking.
34:29You kind of,
34:30that's the goal
34:31is create a picture
34:32with sound.
34:33And,
34:34and there's,
34:35and also we've learned,
34:36I would say,
34:37between season one
34:38and season two,
34:39oh,
34:40what's going to work
34:41really well?
34:42I mean,
34:43in this season
34:44where Omar Epps,
34:45who plays Jack's operative,
34:48is questioning a woman
34:51in a bowling alley.
34:52And the opportunity
34:54to hear the sound
34:55of the bowling ball
34:56go down the lane
34:57and hit the pins
34:58immediately,
34:59you know,
35:00it's like,
35:01okay,
35:02now I know where we are.
35:03And that's the kind of thing,
35:04you know,
35:05we just learned
35:06by experience,
35:07but it's,
35:08it's,
35:09it's trying to make it,
35:11triggers these,
35:12oh,
35:13I can just see that now.
35:14I can,
35:15I can smell that cigarette.
35:16I can,
35:17I can hear the,
35:18the pins go down.
35:19I don't know,
35:20that's a long answer
35:21to your question.
35:22Oh,
35:23it's exactly the answer
35:24we were looking for.
35:25And to even take
35:26that one step further,
35:27I'm also kind of curious
35:28in some of the ways
35:29you make those sounds,
35:30because I do think,
35:31you know,
35:32oftentimes people think,
35:33oh,
35:34they just went and recorded
35:35in a bowling alley.
35:36I'm sure that's not
35:37always true for everything.
35:38Are there any of those
35:39kind of,
35:40you know,
35:41one thing for another
35:42that you all had to do
35:43to get some of these,
35:44you know,
35:45sonics?
35:46Well,
35:47we didn't really go up
35:48in the airplane
35:49with Howard Hughes.
35:50Sure.
35:51Um,
35:52geez,
35:53I don't know.
35:54I don't know.
35:55I don't know how
35:56to answer that one.
35:57I mean,
35:58it's,
35:59it's,
36:00it's,
36:01we had,
36:02you know,
36:03we had a great team,
36:04um,
36:05Fresh Produce,
36:06who's a production company,
36:07um,
36:08really gave us what,
36:09everything we needed
36:10to make this show work.
36:11And,
36:12and we had the same team
36:13from season one
36:14to season two.
36:15And they,
36:16what was great was
36:17what you hope
36:18when you work with people
36:19over and over again is,
36:20you have,
36:21you have that sort of
36:22break-in period.
36:23What does he want?
36:24What does she want?
36:25How,
36:26now we start,
36:27we did this great show.
36:28Let's not go up a level
36:29and make it even better.
36:30So,
36:31we all were working towards
36:32the goal of,
36:33basically,
36:34let's make this the best
36:35sounding show
36:36Audible has ever done.
36:37Absolutely.
36:38And,
36:39and I was thinking about
36:40earlier that idea
36:41of a,
36:42clanking coconuts
36:43to make,
36:44to make the sound
36:45of the horses.
36:46Yeah,
36:47we didn't do that.
36:48Those are the things
36:49that make,
36:50you know,
36:51an audio drama
36:52really sing.
36:53And,
36:54and to that idea
36:55of,
36:56of making this
36:57installment
36:58the best sounding
36:59and also just elevating
37:00from seasons one to two,
37:01you know,
37:02Kate,
37:03what does that kind
37:04of innovation look like
37:05for you all
37:06at Audible as well?
37:07When you have a series
37:08You already talked a little bit about the audience research
37:13that you do to find out what's working, what's not,
37:15but what were some of the other learnings
37:16that you had about as you went to do this again?
37:20I mean, I think, as Aaron sort of alluded to,
37:22figuring out how to tell great audio through season one.
37:26I thought about whether I'll say this
37:27to a room full of industry people,
37:29but they got to the part in season two
37:32where the scripts would come in
37:32and my co-producer Josh Poole and I would just be like,
37:35we don't really have any notes because of the shorthand,
37:39because of the work we had, the vision,
37:41the thoughtfulness of it.
37:43So I'll talk a little bit about the other stuff in a second,
37:46but at the core, it's smart people who cared deeply,
37:50who thought about the medium
37:51and made sure that they knew,
37:53they thought about the audience.
37:55Are they gonna track the voices here?
37:57What is the movement?
38:00When do we want the movement?
38:01Those were all decisions that these incredible creatives
38:04came into the project having solved,
38:07and I think that's really important.
38:10As far as innovating, we are playing with Dolby,
38:14and I think that adds so much to these stories,
38:18because again, when you're thinking about how sound design
38:21and frankly, voices and placement in a room
38:24can add to that clarity of storytelling,
38:27Dolby becomes very important,
38:30because if you've got your headphones on
38:34and you can put that person coming up behind you,
38:36literally, you don't have to try so hard
38:40to explain that to an audience.
38:42So we've learned a lot through the use of Dolby.
38:44That's one thing that I'll say.
38:46Yeah, that's a, yeah, please.
38:47I really think about,
38:50I listen to these episodes with my eyes closed.
38:53I wanna try and understand, and it's trying to build,
38:56and what you can do now in a way
38:59that I don't think you could in BBC in 1935,
39:02was you can create space and you can really talk
39:06to the editor as like, okay, this is a closeup on Jack.
39:11This is Lala's entrance.
39:13She's across the room, 20 feet away.
39:15She walks forward.
39:16Now it's a two-shot.
39:18I can talk to the editor in those terms,
39:20and he can understand in his language
39:24how to make that happen.
39:25Okay, now we're in two-shot.
39:27Now he goes away, or he turns his back, whatever it is.
39:29She turns away.
39:30We're in her closeup.
39:31You know, you're trying to make a geography out of sound,
39:39and it works.
39:40It's really great because you feel like,
39:41oh, I can see this apartment.
39:43I can see this room.
39:45I can see them in the car.
39:46I know they're driving up to the beach now.
39:48It's really fun, and I think the way you can separate sound
39:53and place it is really super valuable.
39:57John, I saw you listening intently there,
39:59but then I did also think,
40:00does anybody know what the Kansas City score is?
40:03How does it go?
40:03I don't know.
40:04I don't know.
40:05I don't know.
40:06No eagles.
40:07No eagles.
40:08They already won.
40:10Don't you have enough?
40:12Anyway, to the idea of, again, elevating from one to two,
40:21you know, what do you kind of look like as the future
40:24of this character, of this medium,
40:26of your continued involvement in shows like this?
40:30I mean, I think the growth of the sector,
40:35for want of a better phrase,
40:37has been phenomenal over the last decade or so.
40:40You know, again, thinking about even the word podcast.
40:43It didn't exist 15 years ago,
40:46so the potential is limitless, really,
40:49because of the things that I was talking about earlier,
40:52the price point, entry point is low.
40:56You really need a microphone and an idea
40:59and a connection to the internet.
41:01And then the limits are your creativity,
41:04and these guys were talking about just how incredible
41:08the craftspeople are, especially in the sound department,
41:11that are able to pull these sounds out of places
41:15and design these soundscapes
41:17that are three-dimensional, truly.
41:20Sarah was saying about the spatial sound, that's real.
41:25You're like, Jesus, what's going on?
41:27It's spooky, but it's super compelling.
41:31So again, I think we've all said a version of it tonight,
41:35but it's fun, it's a super kind of low-impact way
41:40to get these sometimes marginalized
41:43but sometimes difficult to tell stories,
41:46or difficult to sell stories, I should say.
41:50Out there, and there's an audience for it.
41:54So let's keep doing it, you know?
41:56Why not?
41:57Right?
41:58All right.
42:03Also, seriously, who does know the Kansas City School?
42:05No, that was us essentially green-lighting
42:08the next installment right there.
42:10There are only 50 mountains, right?
42:12Right.
42:12But it's also, you know, we've all been talking about,
42:16just in the past couple of days,
42:17how many stories there are like Salt of the Earth
42:20and like Chavez Ravine.
42:21There's so many stories about LA.
42:22Every city has a displaced population.
42:26I'm from St. Louis.
42:28There's a beautiful piece of public art in St. Louis
42:30called the Gateway Arch.
42:31It's the pride of our city.
42:33They bulldoze an African-American community
42:35for that to exist.
42:37People don't talk about it, but it happened.
42:40So Detroit, Kansas City, every city in America has,
42:45and if we want to really get back to the old ways,
42:49we can go back to the old stories, too,
42:51of the natives and their incredible displacement.
42:54But there's tremendous amount of stories to be told there.
42:57And again, when the financial imperative
43:02isn't that this has to make a billion dollars
43:04to be successful or seen, then you can tell those stories.
43:10And that's what is compelling about this to me.
43:16And I truly think about it is compelling
43:19to the audience, too, because people,
43:22I was talking earlier in a previous interview about this,
43:24but I didn't know the events of the Tulsa firebombing
43:29until I saw The Watchmen.
43:32I was like, why didn't I know that?
43:34Oh, because I wasn't taught that in history class.
43:39Okay, well, I know it now, and a lot more people saw it
43:43because they saw that show.
43:45So that's the kind of thing, it's like giving people
43:47an opportunity to go, wait a minute,
43:50how come I didn't know about that?
43:51Maybe I should look a little closer.
43:53These are the fun things, this is what we do.
43:56Well, thank you for taking time to look a little bit closer
44:00and encourage all of us to do the rest.
44:03Thank you all so much, congratulations.
44:06And just a small reminder that the big fix,
44:11a Jack Bergen mystery, will be available exclusively
44:14from Audible on April 24th, so everybody go listen.
44:19Thank you, thank you all so much.