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00:00more questions and answers at this stage but what is clear is that the U.S. has made a stand here
00:05about Ukraine and NATO. Let's bring in Olena Prokopenko, Senior Fellow of the German Marshall
00:11Fund for the United States. Olena, thank you for joining us here on France 24. We appreciate your
00:15time. We've had Donald Trump speaking with Vladimir Putin and Vladimir Zelensky. There's
00:21many things moving here in this story but of course Peter Hegseth, the U.S. Defence Secretary,
00:25is saying that, out loud, Ukraine should give up on joining NATO. What's your take on the situation?
00:34We need to remember that Ukrainian society, Ukrainian people are paying the highest price
00:38for their freedom so nobody wants peace more than we do, more than Ukraine does. But Ukraine cannot
00:44accept peace at any cost. It's critical that Ukraine's allies make sure that all the red
00:50lines that Ukrainian leadership has been insisting on are observed and those red lines are of course
00:56the credible security guarantees which primarily include NATO membership and I believe that
01:02Ukrainian allies, primarily the U.S. in this case, should return to the negotiating table
01:07on this point and from what we're seeing in the media today, the upcoming meeting between
01:13President Zelensky and U.S. Vice President Vance and State Secretary Marco Rubio may include the
01:21NATO point on the agenda so we are very hopeful about that because NATO membership is really
01:28the most effective and the cheapest way to guarantee not only Ukraine's lasting security
01:34and peace but also lasting peace in Europe. These red lines should also include
01:41Western troops on the ground, they should include uninterrupted supplies of weapons
01:46that Ukraine has been asking for for a very long time and also we should not forget about the
01:52channeling of Russia's assets of 300 billion dollars that are frozen in the West, that are
02:01available to the West, that should be confiscated and should be channeled into Ukraine's recovery.
02:08These lines, these red lines, should be observed before any negotiations can start because otherwise
02:14we will end up not with a sustainable peace but with a mere break that will end very soon
02:20with Russia regrouping and attacking again. I think I'll end that most other countries
02:29listening to what you're saying will actually agree with you but the fact of the matter is
02:34the United States, now with Donald Trump in charge, seems to have taken a very different
02:37perspective and when you hear Heads of State say that Ukraine has to give up on getting back to
02:42the 2014 borders, that is except that Crimea will remain Russian, except that the Donbass won't be
02:48in Ukraine again, I mean again what does that leave you feeling?
02:54Well this is very disappointing to hear from the world, from the new US administration
03:00but the good news I think is that we see those statements and those positions on Ukraine and
03:05the offer regarding Ukraine peace negotiations still being in the making and I believe that
03:13during this week's media security conference and the bilateral meetings between Ukrainian
03:19leadership and the US leadership that are scheduled, we can see some development and
03:24I believe that there's still room for changing the US position here because again I think
03:31it needs to be understood that we are not talking about a peace deal that will take us through
03:39another two years or so, we are talking about a peace deal that would stand the test of time
03:44and will actually bring sustainable peace in Europe so I think it's in everyone's interest,
03:50in the US interest primarily, to make sure that Ukraine does not lose to Russia on Trump's watch.
03:59Indeed, we've obviously read about a lot of Ms Zelensky speaking to the Guardian newspaper
04:04in an interview published today about the need for Patriot missiles, there's also talk from
04:09Zelensky of a land swap in some way, shape or form, clearly some kind of leverage using the
04:15Kursk region of Russia in some kind of exchange. Do you see that being a viable proposition? Do you
04:21think Vladimir Putin would actually be willing to give up the land that his troops have taken
04:26in Ukraine just to get back Kursk? Unfortunately, earlier today we heard the Kremlin completely
04:35declining President Zelensky's proposal, tentative proposal to swap those lands and you would think
04:42that this offer would be in everyone's interest but I believe what Kremlin is trying to tell us
04:48is that it's not interested in peace, it's interested in terrorizing Ukraine into submission,
04:55into capitulation. Just this morning Ukraine was attacked again with multiple ballistic missiles
05:04and not the military objects, not the military targets were affected, they were attacked,
05:10civilian infrastructure and residential areas were specifically attacked on purpose. I mean what
05:17does it say about Kremlin's interest in negotiating peace? It is interested in terrorizing
05:25Ukraine into submission, in making Ukraine seize its territories but not only territories,
05:33it's really not about the territory, it's about Ukraine's sovereignty. Russia wants to
05:38deprive Ukraine of its statehood, it's not about Crimea or the east or any of the
05:44villages or towns that Russia has occupied, it's about seizing Ukraine's sovereignty and
05:52independence and Russia will not stop at Ukraine, we know that. So in that sense what is the leverage
05:59that Zelensky has to maybe get Trump to see his point of view? Is it these rare earth minerals that
06:05Trump is so interested in getting his hands on, the trillions of dollars of worth of these rare
06:10earths that are under Ukrainian soil? Could that be perhaps the best card in Zelensky's hand right now?
06:17Again I think that these negotiation points will be changing as we speak but
06:23I saw that President Zelensky already accepted this potential offer from the White
06:29House, he already confirmed that the draft deal that US finance minister brought to Kyiv
06:36this afternoon is something that Ukraine will consider and I think Ukrainian leadership has
06:43been very open and accommodating towards various solutions on the table because again we are paying
06:50the highest price, we want peace, but whatever deal is achieved, rare earth or not, it should
06:59include security guarantees if we don't want this war to spill over to the larger Europe very soon.
07:06Olena Prokopenko of the German Marshall Fund, co-chair of the Transatlantic Committee on Ukraine,
07:13thank you for joining us and sharing your analysis with us here on France 24, we appreciate your time.
07:18Thank you very much indeed Olena Prokopenko. We're watching for all developments of course
07:22on the situation in Ukraine both diplomatically and on the ground.