Lt Gen Sanjay Kulkarni (Retd.), former DG, Infantry, Indian Army speaks with Col Anil Bhat (Retd.) on the implications of the stepped-up attacks by Baloch rebels in Pakistan | SAM Conversation
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00:00Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor.
00:13We are going to look at how Balochistan rebels have stepped up their attacks against Pakistan.
00:23To throw light on this, it is our pleasure to welcome Lt. Gen. Sanjay Kulkarni, former
00:32Director General, Infantry, and the first officer to set foot on Siachen with his detachment
00:39in March 1984.
00:41He has had more than enough of deployment on both the line of control between India
00:53and Pakistan and the line of actual control between India and Tibet occupied by China.
01:00I think it's been a very, very active month of March.
01:10On the 11th of March, the Jaffar Express, a train from Quetta to Peshawar, was hijacked
01:22by the Baloch Liberation Army and hijacked in such a way that out of its 450 odd passengers,
01:34about over 200 reportedly of the Pakistan Army or security agencies are reported killed.
01:48Civilians are reported to be freed or in the process of being freed, although the Pakistan
02:00Army's ISPR, Integrated Service Public Relations, Inter-Service Public Relations, their reports
02:14paint a bright picture of the Pakistan Army, which does not exist on ground, of freeing
02:26passengers.
02:30Then comes the attack on 16th, in which out of a convoy of nine vehicles of Pakistan Army,
02:41one is completely destroyed and about 90 Pakistani soldiers are reported killed.
02:49It's quite a month of madness because between the 48 hours of 15th to 17th of March 2025,
03:01there have been 57 attacks by Baloch rebels against Pakistan Army.
03:08I think I will begin by asking General Kulkarni to very briefly give us the background of
03:19how Balochistan became part of Pakistan between 1947 and 1948. General Kulkarni.
03:28Sir, thank you very much. Thank you very much indeed. Pleasure interacting with you. It
03:35has always been a pleasure while in service and definitely now as a veteran, I find it so
03:40comfortable to be with you. I must say, yes, it's a very important topic that you decided to speak
03:50on and that primarily deals with Balochistan. Now Balochistan as a province of Pakistan,
03:57which is considered to be 44% of the area of Pakistan and Balochistan, and approximately
04:04about 5% of the population of Pakistan is in Balochistan. So having said that, Balochistan
04:11as a province joined Pakistan or rather the instrument of accession got signed on the 27th
04:18of March 1948. And therefore, as you can see, the independence is the 15th of August 1947,
04:26and there's been almost about 226 days of independence of Balochistan till it finally
04:33got merged with Pakistan. And that also has a very interesting story because on the 4th of
04:39August 1947, Khan of Kalat had along accompanied by, of course, Muhammad Ali Jinnah. Those days,
04:50since he was also a lawyer and advocate of repute, he had decided to represent the Khan
04:59of Kalat primarily due to be able to get them independence. So that was the purpose for which
05:06he was to meet and he was to meet Mountbatten. And with Pandit Nehru, Mountbatten and Muhammad
05:11Ali Jinnah, the case being represented by Muhammad Ali Jinnah was that the Khan of Kalat must be given
05:18independence because they didn't want to join India or Pakistan. And as yet the 15th of August
05:24hadn't arrived. It was just the 4th of August 1947. So all this was going on. Having said that,
05:31it is reported that yes, it was accepted. But as soon as after the 15th of August 1947,
05:37probably under the pressure from the British, because the British wanted a foothold in this
05:42entire area and they always feared Russia and they wanted some kind of eyes and ears in this
05:50area. And they did that even in Gilgit-Baltistan and they wanted to do it in Balochistan also.
05:56So that independence was definitely not something which the Britishers were also in favour of and
06:01therefore it did work out in the interest of Muhammad Ali Jinnah. He took an entirely U-turn
06:06representing the Khan of Kalat for independence. Instead got them to sign the Instrument of
06:13Accession on the 27th of March 1948. And the very next day, brother Abdul Karim decided to launch,
06:22having disagreed with his brother that that was not what the Balochis would want and therefore
06:28their main aim of the independence had been fought. So the insurgency started. So the first,
06:34I would say, round of insurgency in the 50s, the second round of insurgency in the 60s,
06:40the third round of insurgency in the 70s and now, first, second, third, then the fourth round.
06:46This is the fifth round which is continued till date.
06:50Absolutely. You are right. The fifth round of insurgency since 2004 is what could be said,
06:56which actually took a firm rooting and it's been on continuously for the last about 20 odd years.
07:05Primarily because, I would say, Musharraf is responsible for this round of insurgency because
07:12it was he who got the Bhukti in 2006 killed because he wanted to meet him to settle the
07:18issue. But after what happened at the army public school in Peshawar where almost about 100 plus
07:25children died and Musharraf himself was also attacked and there were so many things that
07:30were happening. He probably didn't see Bhukti in that light. Though Bhukti, a 79-year-old man,
07:35a very, very respectable and a very, very, someone who had a tremendous amount of following.
07:43Very highly respected among the Balochis.
07:48And therefore after his death, there had never been a day when the Pakistan security forces
07:54have not been on their feet because the area is such.
07:57And in fact, just before that, a sparkle point was the rape of a lady doctor.
08:05This rape of a lady doctor.
08:08By a Pakistan army major, a fact which was denied by Musharraf.
08:14Absolutely. Denied and it happened in Balochistan and that led to women coming in forefront.
08:22So you find the Balochis, she is not just in a more such an orthodox society.
08:27It was the women in Balochistan who were also in the front line.
08:31Oh yes. Oh yes.
08:33And not just that, the women are so much in forefront that one of the women,
08:38almost not, you know, she was a suicide bomber for three Chinese instructors being killed.
08:45Yes, she killed four among them, including three Chinese.
08:49All three were Chinese language teachers who were killed by this lady
08:56on what could be termed as a suicide bomber.
09:00Suicide bombing.
09:02Absolutely. Never happens. A woman, a suicide bomber.
09:05Absolutely. Absolutely.
09:07What kind of motivation has led them to believe that their future does not lie with Pakistan.
09:15Their only future that is there for Balochistan, which is rich in mineral resources,
09:20so much rich that gold, silver, copper, you have, you know, kinds of minerals there
09:27besides, of course, oil, gas and the coal.
09:30So, so much of it there. The Brazilian firms are there digging gold.
09:34And after so many years, you suddenly found that the Pakistanis gave not more than 5% royalties to the Balochis.
09:44And therefore a population which is so little and so rich in mineral resource
09:48and one of the biggest province of Pakistan,
09:51which has a spillover of Balochis into Iran and also into Afghanistan.
09:57So along the Durand Line, which is over 2,600 kilometers,
10:01almost 1,600 odd kilometers of border with Afghanistan is that of Balochistan.
10:07And approximately about 900 kilometers of border line with Iran,
10:12they call it the Sitan province, they call it the Balochistan.
10:15So you have Balochis in Iran, you have Balochis in Afghanistan
10:19and you have a sizable number of Balochis in Balochistan.
10:22So this kind and Wadar, the port, was supposedly at the time of independence with the Sultan of Oman.
10:30So it was Oman which had Wadar and the trigger.
10:34So in this kind of a thing which they never wanted to and Pakistan performed,
10:38the Pakistani army administration, they did not care.
10:44They were looted outright by Pakistan, particularly through its army.
10:51My next question to you is,
10:55could you please throw light on the growth of the rebel insurgency,
11:02particularly the fifth one,
11:06and how it grew to a stage that will come later to what happened very recently?
11:20This entire episode and you find right from the time,
11:27every time there have been incidents, the Balochistan Liberation Army
11:32seems to be taking complete responsibility for what is happening.
11:36There are other fringe elements also,
11:38though the Balochistan Liberation Front is one of the oldest,
11:41which actually got raised in Syria.
11:44But the Balochistan Liberation Army has got raised just around 2000.
11:49And therefore it's a very fresh incision, freedom fighter group,
11:54which seems to feel very strongly that their future lies entirely in getting freedom,
12:01independent from Pakistan.
12:03Much that Pakistan has been wanting to say that,
12:05no, no, about 75% of the Balochis want autonomy and not independence,
12:09it's just the other way around.
12:11All of them almost want independence, so much so that even who they call
12:16as the Maulana Diesel, and that Maulana Diesel who gave a statement
12:21in the parliament, who said that Balochistan, six odd districts,
12:25Balochistan has about 39 districts, of which about six to seven districts
12:30do not even fly the Pakistani flag,
12:32and at any point of time they would declare their independence,
12:35and he himself said it in the parliament,
12:38that the UN would not hesitate to recognize that part as Balochistan.
12:44So please be careful, and therefore do not ignore these people,
12:47do not see them in a different light,
12:50and it will be in the interest of the Pakistani state
12:53that these people must be looked after.
12:55But to top it up, the Pakistanis, whatever they've done,
12:58they've allowed China, sir.
13:00Now the China angle, ever since it's come into Balochistan,
13:03because of the Gwadar port, where the Chinese are looking for,
13:06into the warm water, right from Gunjara Pass and going right along the CPEC,
13:11which the Chinese have not only developed Gwadar port,
13:14there is nothing in Balochistan, not even proper drinking water,
13:18and neither electricity, which the Chinese are supposedly investing
13:23$50 billion in making this particular CPEC,
13:26China-Pakistan Economic Corridor, and giving Pakistan a feeling
13:30that they're going to make Dubai into Balochistan.
13:33What to talk of Dubai, even the Gwadar...
13:36No, no, they have further looted very basic things, like water, you know, water.
13:43Absolutely right.
13:46Anil sir, you'll be surprised that the Chinese haven't invested,
13:50they're not there for charity, if they've invested money,
13:53they're going to take at least 10 times more than what they've invested.
13:56So the Balochis have lost the fishing rights in and along the Gwadar port,
14:01that is one, the electricity also to the international airport at Gwadar,
14:07is coming from Iran, so much so is the state of electricity over there.
14:12The Balochis themselves have nothing, the development is zero.
14:15The number of people per square kilometre is just between about 43 people per square kilometre.
14:21Balochistan itself is about 3,15,000 square kilometres of an area,
14:26and most of the population is in and around Quetta, which is supposed to be the capital.
14:30So therefore, when we talk of the Zafar Express, which is supposed to leave from Quetta to Peshawar,
14:35a distance of over 632 kilometres, which they would cover in a...
14:40It would start at 9 in the morning and reach at 7 in the morning the next day at Peshawar.
14:45This is the length. And this got hijacked, I would say,
14:48just having done about 100, 116 kilometres, and it got hijacked.
14:52So this complete operation seems to be very meticulously executed,
14:58and in such a manner that the Balochis have actually released the passenger list
15:04of all the passengers that are travelling in it.
15:07And when you see the passenger list, you can see Havaldar, Constable,
15:10you know, Naik, Lance Naik, Sepoy, all of it listed out.
15:14It was a great combination of Pakistan Army, ISI, and, you know, police.
15:23In fact, all of them travelling in CVs because they're so scared.
15:28Like Maulana has all along been saying that the writ of the Pakistan Army does not run in Balochistan.
15:38So what do you talk to the police? Even they will not leave their barracks.
15:43There's nothing. It's free for all for the Balochistan Liberation Army
15:47or any fringe element to do what they want to do.
15:50It is their law. They do it.
15:52The Pakistani Army much wanting to send as much as whatever they could,
15:56but they find it impossible to survive over there.
15:59And that is why the Balochistan Liberation Army released the list of people who they had released.
16:05And that included women, children, old people,
16:08and whoever they thought were Balochis, they were released.
16:11Then there were Punjabis and the security personnel,
16:14whom we understand now have all been killed.
16:18Balochistan DLA gave them 48 hours to return all those found missing
16:24and all those arrested by Pakistan for years on,
16:27and they've not been released at all from the prison.
16:29Most of them have been found missing and probably dead.
16:32So Pakistan is unable to release them.
16:34Therefore, they've now decided, and like you rightly said in your introduction, sir,
16:39not only this, even I'm sure the coffins would not have been even buried properly,
16:44that they had another incident in which that convoy got ambushed,
16:48in which the vehicle that you see, the ambush on the road,
16:52nothing in and around the road.
16:54The visual images that are coming, they said the vehicle,
16:57which has been totally in tatters.
17:00I mean, I don't think even one man in that particular vehicle can survive.
17:04Yes, the visuals show that.
17:08Yeah, absolutely. Yet another vehicle has also been damaged.
17:11So therefore, when DLA says that they've been able to kill 90,
17:15maybe, even if I go along with the Pakistan army and say,
17:21well, it may be an exaggerated figure of 90 dead,
17:24but definitely 90 are dead or injured,
17:27because the ones who've ambushed that particular convoy wouldn't be there to see what's happened,
17:31but they would know exactly how many people are missing.
17:34If 90, presumed at least 45 to 50 would have been dead,
17:37the balance would have been in the hospitals getting cured, injured and all that.
17:42So therefore, DLA, even if you see the statement of the DGISPR,
17:48when he gave the first statement, he said that the satellite phone tapping
17:54has revealed that the Balochistan Liberation Army is directly in contact
17:59with Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan, who in turn are in touch with Taliban,
18:03and who in turn are passing orders and the execution of orders
18:06is being done by DLA.
18:07Otherwise, they find it impossible that such a task could have been done.
18:10So Pakistan, who they thought the Taliban was their creation,
18:14and the Taliban would eat from their palm, instead of eating from their palm,
18:17they've turned around to give them a lesson, primarily because ill-treatment.
18:21And even when initially you found out, Imran Khan gave that statement
18:26that the slavery is over and all that,
18:30and the way that ISI, their DG went up there,
18:35and now of course sacked and now behind the bars.
18:38So they have a real problem because Pakistan thought that it would be
18:42a strategic death, Afghanistan would be a strategic death for them,
18:45and then blew it, not realising that they do not recognise the Durand Line.
18:50And to top it up, Pakistan started fencing it.
18:53So once the fencing of the Durand Line started, now that was the trigger.
18:58The Pathans over there don't see a border,
19:02because for them, 50% of them are in Peshawar,
19:05even extending up to Karachi, and the 50% of them stay in Afghanistan.
19:09This is a very common border.
19:11So having a border like this is not appreciated.
19:14But then Pakistan thought that since Afghanistan, Taliban in their own creation,
19:19Haqqani Network was there, they thought they could do what they wanted to do.
19:23But well, it's gone berserk, it's gone totally...
19:26They don't know what is happening today.
19:29A lot has changed, a lot has changed,
19:32ever since the Taliban came for the second time,
19:36to take charge of Afghanistan.
19:41But here you find, I would just bring to your notice,
19:46there are a lot of people involved into it.
19:49The Americans want an airbase, an airbase which they used against Afghanistan,
19:54when they were in Afghanistan.
19:56Now probably the Americans may be thinking that
19:59this airbase of Balochistan is important for them to strike Iran,
20:03should that thing arise, because Balochistan is a border with Iran,
20:06and again with Afghanistan.
20:09And obviously act as ideas for China,
20:12because China is into Balochistan because of the CPEC.
20:15So Americans also have interest.
20:17The Pakistanis are unable to do anything,
20:19so therefore they do not mind earning money,
20:22for which they have already been given $390 million
20:25to refurbish and to sort of maintain those F-16 that they have.
20:31So the Chinese are looking at wanting peace,
20:34so that they could utilize the CPEC and get into warm waters.
20:38Their ports do not even have one ship coming.
20:41The international airport doesn't even have one aircraft taking off.
20:44Would anybody invest money of such huge,
20:47turning into almost $50 billion, wherein nothing is used?
20:51The same thing goes in Tibet.
20:53You find the kind of roads in Tibet that Chinese have made,
20:56where you won't see a vehicle for probably hours on.
20:59There it is.
21:00So the kind of money that China is investing,
21:03we ought to be careful, because we ought to be very vigilant,
21:06because China can't be trusted for these kind of things.
21:09Absolutely.
21:10We are talking about POK.
21:14There is a huge Chinese presence in POK,
21:19There is a huge Chinese presence in Balochistan.
21:22100%. 100%. Huge Chinese presence,
21:25because the CPEC runs from Shaksgam Valley.
21:28The Shaksgam Valley adjoining the Sinkiang province.
21:31So you find from Punjara Park, which is on the Shaksgam Valley,
21:35for which the Pakistanis gifted that valley, Shaksgam,
21:38to the Chinese in 1963.
21:42There is a huge PLA presence there,
21:45because they feel very insecure.
21:48They have been targeted by the Balochis quite often.
21:54Anil sir, on this, what has happened is,
21:57the Pakistan Army decided to give a division,
22:00approximately between 18,000 to 20,000 troops,
22:03for the protection of the Chinese engineers, workers,
22:06to see that the CPEC is executed.
22:09China in turn turned around and said,
22:12it appears compromised, because our citizens are still being killed,
22:15our engineers are still being killed, women are still being killed.
22:18What nonsense is all this?
22:21So please allow us to bring our security and to protect this thing.
22:24Pakistanis as yet have not given clearance for it,
22:27because they feel that once the Chinese enter,
22:30officially, unofficially, what you're saying, they'll be there,
22:33but officially, until the end,
22:36Pakistan will be lost to China.
22:40They are already there and,
22:43I don't know, there are very few places that China has entered,
22:46and you know, gone back,
22:49at least in this Indian subcontinent,
22:52if we can call it.
22:55Because China feels very insecure,
22:58and this insecurity of Chinese,
23:01firstly the language, the second is food,
23:04third is their own equipment has come.
23:07Obviously, it would be written in Chinese, whatever directions are set,
23:10their own people can operate, it's very difficult for others to operate.
23:13So be it in Africa, or be it in South America,
23:16or be it here in Pakistan, or be it there in Sri Lanka,
23:19anywhere and everywhere, wherever you are, in Nepal also,
23:22wherever the Chinese have decided to step in,
23:25they step in with equipment, men and material.
23:28Because, you know, locals might think they're coming,
23:31They've come to stay, not to go back.
23:34No, no chance, not going back, no employment.
23:37And guess who is part of the CPC?
23:40All in Pakistan, in-charges are all veteran generals,
23:43of the Pakistan army,
23:46who are sitting on top, drawing big fat salaries,
23:49enjoying this thing, because the Chinese are happy giving them,
23:52and getting their work done through them,
23:55and having their people.
23:58Everything is made in China, by China, in Balochistan.
24:02That is the problem nowadays, which the Balochis don't like.
24:05Balochis never like Punjabis, want to talk with the Chinese.
24:08No, no, they're a very proud race.
24:11They're a very proud race.
24:14And the BLA is largely comprised of
24:17the Bhuktis and the Murris.
24:20Absolutely.
24:23Who are the most aggressive of them.
24:26Wherever, what happens is, language is a big barrier.
24:29You might try anything, sir.
24:32He might be wanting to tell me, if I'm as a worker over there,
24:35to put the explosives there.
24:38I don't understand, I put it elsewhere.
24:41The bugger will get upset, because it might just burst off any moment of time.
24:44So he comes and slaps me, raps me, kicks me.
24:47So I also rap him, rap, kick him.
24:50So you find that this frustration goes so high,
24:53because of the inability to communicate with one another.
24:56And the locals feel, what are they there for?
24:59If they're not being employed, then what is the purpose of having such a huge thing?
25:02But the Chinese will listen to all this,
25:05but they will do what they want to do.
25:08And Pakistan now is in deep economic crisis.
25:11They have no way they can repay the 50 billion dollars.
25:14They don't even have 10.
25:17And they've just taken 7 billion dollars from the IMF to survive.
25:20So it's very, very difficult.
25:23In Sri Lanka, it's not easy.
25:26You see what's happening in Mauritius.
25:29You see what's happening in Djibouti.
25:32In Djibouti, the Chinese have just gone there to establish a base.
25:35Djibouti is already 168% of their GDP in debt.
25:38This is the state of Djibouti.
25:41There are 9 countries having bases in Djibouti.
25:44And look what's happening just across Yemen in Houthi.
25:47So there, despite so much of investment by Chinese and all others,
25:51it's not easy for any of these bases to be able to survive.
25:54But then everybody wants to, you know,
25:57make a world of sunshine.
26:00Want to have a foothold.
26:03Because until and unless you have boots on the ground,
26:06it doesn't really count.
26:09Because you have to have boots on the ground.
26:12You have boots on the ground, you need to secure them.
26:15You need to provide protection to them.
26:18The ground reminds me of the Pakistan Army
26:21which very often is known for outsourcing
26:24rather than having their own boots on the ground.
26:27They've been outsourcing and now
26:30they are in the most vulnerable
26:33situation
26:36ever since
26:39this mad month of March
26:42has taught them exactly how vulnerable they are.
26:45I must thank you, General Kulkarni,
26:48you said there is a lot more
26:51but I'm afraid we are a little strapped for time.
26:54We look forward to
26:57meeting again and picking up
27:00a whole lot of more
27:03inputs on the
27:06growth of the Baloch
27:09and what the future might be for Pakistan.
27:13Thank you very much.
27:16Pleasure talking to you, sir.