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00:00Hello and welcome to NDTV Profit, you are watching Profit Insights, I am your host Vishwanath
00:12Nair.
00:13Today on the show we are joined by Mr. A. K. Purwad, Chairman and Independent Director
00:16at IIFL Finance.
00:18Of course, we are discussing the recent developments at IIFL Finance where the Reserve Bank of
00:22India has announced that it will remove the restrictions that it had placed on the company
00:28back in March.
00:29Now, of course, the announcement came on the exchanges by IIFL Finance itself.
00:33Mr. Purwad, I want to ask you about what you are feeling as the Chairman of the company
00:40now that these restrictions are coming off, about seven months since they first were announced.
00:46Exactly six months, almost six months, but it gives a bit, it's a kind of a big relief.
00:51Relief in the sense that, well, gold loan was our major portfolio business and having
00:57stopped that kind of business and continuous decline in the gold loan outstanding, keeping
01:05the company profitable itself has become a big challenge.
01:11So to your mind, what has been the sort of, you know, impact, apart from the obvious number
01:17as in the outstanding book coming down from 26,000 odd crore to about 12,000 crore in
01:23last count in August, apart from that, internally as an entity with its operations in different
01:30businesses, what has the impact been of these restrictions?
01:36Well, the biggest impact of these restrictions has been that we had almost 5,000, 3,000 branches.
01:46And since our technology platform is very robust, say for example, the day on which
01:51the restrictions were imposed on us, up to that day or on an average in a day, we were funding
01:57around 30,000 small borrowers per day, 30,000 applications, applications we were handling every
02:04day. Now, that kind of business simply has vanished from us for the last six months.
02:12Most of our loyal customers are feeling pinched. Many of our staff, you know, in today's scenario,
02:21the basic pay is not sufficient unless and until you have the variable pay component.
02:27And variable component has vanished because there are no business.
02:32So some of the employees were also leaving us. And most importantly, last two months or so,
02:39the company has entered into a sort of a cash loss situation.
02:45And in addition, we were facing lots of restrictions, lots of pressures from our
02:53vendors and so on and so forth. It was a very, very tough, challenging and demanding time.
03:03Mr. Prabha, if you can just take us through what are some of the changes, some of the compliance
03:09measures that the company has taken in these six odd months, because there was a laundry list of
03:15issues that the RBI had originally highlighted. So just take us through what exactly has changed
03:21on ground. A couple of things have completely changed. For example, earlier, we used to
03:27disburse gold loans and cash in line with the market practice. Whatever our companies were
03:33doing, we were doing that. Today, as per inspection report, as per the efficiency
03:39comparison with RBI inspection report, we have completely stopped any cash disbursement
03:46above 20,000 rupees. We simply disbursed up to 19,999.
03:52This has to be credited to accountants or so forth. This was one very major change that has
04:00been done. Then secondly, RBI had the feeling that, well, there is some amount of cartelization
04:07happening because of the point of auction of the gold ornaments where the defaults were there.
04:15So we have tightened the process. We have substantially tightened the process.
04:19We started going through the e-auction platform to auction various gold ornaments.
04:25Thirdly, there were some issues on the auction charges, which we have fully addressed.
04:35These are basically three, four important issues.
04:40You know, just help me understand this. So you said that some of the steps that the company was
04:46originally taking as part of its business were more or less industry standards. And that's what
04:50companies across the board were doing. But the guidelines are fairly clear, right? I mean,
04:55they've always been clear as to what an entity doing gold finance should be doing.
05:01Well, as far as cash disbursement part is concerned, earlier the government regulations,
05:07the government law was there that you cannot disburse above 20,000 rupees. But throughout
05:13the industry, disbursements were taking place. Now, fortunately, RBI has tightened the process.
05:19We are now strictly adhering to RBI guidelines. But I expect and I would say that, well,
05:27all the players in the market have to follow these guidelines to create a level playing field for us.
05:33Is that something that you're raising with the regulator? That rule should be
05:37sort of applied equally across all companies?
05:41At the moment, our organization is completely focused on complete adherence,
05:46full adherence to the RBI guidelines and government laws. We would not, at the moment,
05:53allow anything to be done, which is not permissible by RBI.
06:01Fair enough, sir. Sir, one of the things that you announced during the, the company announced
06:06during the June quarter results was the fact that in August, the company submitted its compliance
06:11report. Just curious to understand what took, you know, five months, because the changes that
06:17you're explaining, I mean, yes, they're not overnight changes, but, but five months seems a
06:22bit long. You see, the point which we must understand whenever the RBI imposes these
06:29kinds of restrictions, that even if we have complied with by the month of April, we have to
06:37check, cross-check, verify, re-verify, completely satisfy themselves like various checks,
06:45so that the possibility of it occurring in times to come gets substantially taken care of.
06:53You see, if you ask me, as a company, these multiple checks from one to the other, third,
07:00fourth, they were, of course, creating a lot of, a lot of work on the part of the company.
07:08So there was definitely an issue. But having said that, as a banker, I'm very happy to see
07:13this kind of regulations, because if they, if they point out something, then they have,
07:20they ensure that all those things not only get rectified, the atmosphere in the organization
07:27gets created, that those things never recur again. This has been a very big lesson. Let me,
07:35let me explain a little bit more. Sure, sure. You have raised a very, you have played a very
07:40important issue. Sure. You know, our organization is almost 20, more than 20 years old. And so far,
07:47our focus has been on the quality of assets, that quality of assets has to be top-notch,
07:53that has to be. And secondly, our technology has to be, has to be worthless. And these two
08:01aspects were taken as a religion of it. So if you see the asset, asset quality of IFL,
08:07it's comparable, or sometimes it is better than the best companies in the country. Right.
08:13Secondly, that in terms of technology also, as compared to that, we outsource the technology
08:19and have the various technology vendors. Our technology is mostly homegrown,
08:25our own technology team develops the technology and works on it. And as a result, and as a small,
08:32although it's not a huge company, but it's still on a knowledge center at Bangalore, where
08:37top-notch engineers work in, along with others to, to get world-class technology in our organization.
08:44So both these things were taken as a religion. Now with this episode, we have learned our lessons.
08:50At least I will now personally focus a little more or rather much more on the compliance.
08:56And see to it that whatever has happened, never happens.
09:00Got it, sir. One last question that I wanted to ask you was with regard to what the months ahead
09:05are going to look like, because you have a lot of catch-up to do on the home loan business side,
09:10apologies, the gold loan business side. But alongside that, are you also looking
09:14to diversify your book further so that you have, you don't end up relying too much on one business?
09:20You have raised a very, you have raised, you have asked a very important question. In fact,
09:24you know what has happened that whatever we have lost in five, six months,
09:28yes, our book has come down from, our book has come down from 23,000 crores to almost 10,000
09:34crores. The first and the most important job is to get the company back on this, which we,
09:41which we are doing. From today onwards, the loans are being given. Most importantly,
09:45the way in which the organization is organized, and thanks to our technology platform,
09:50we have the capacity to entertain 30,000 new applications every day, which we are doing as on
09:5827th or 28th of March when these restrictions were enforced on us. So we have that kind of
10:03capacity thanks to our technology, which we have got installed. So my rough assessment is that we
10:11shall not only be achieving 23,000 crores, which was there as on 27th March, we shall be exceeding
10:19it by 31st March 2020. And also, in addition, we are also looking at diversifying our business.
10:26We would like to add a couple of more particles, maybe auto loans, maybe something else,
10:32maybe something more innovative. So it's to ensure that we have a couple of other
10:37important product lines and our over-dependence on bond loan portfolio.
10:44You know, I come from State Bank of India. Having spent 40 years there,
10:49it is able to survive in any situation because of highly diversified asset base and deposit base.
10:56Of course. So this organization also would be now looking at substantially diversifying
11:02its asset base. Of course. I am not debating that. But, Sir,
11:06State Bank of India never faced severe restrictions like IFL Finance has faced.
11:12You know, the regulator wasn't this tough back then. But thank you so much, Mr. Purwar, for
11:16joining us on this conversation. It's a pleasure talking to you, Sir. Thank you very much. Thanks
11:22a lot for giving me an opportunity to talk to you. Sure, Sir. Thank you so much. So that was
11:26EK Purwar, Chairman and Independent Director at IFL Finance. My colleague Neeraj Shah caught up
11:33with Rupal Hollenbeck, President of Checkpoint Software Technologies. Rupal discussed about her
11:38recent note, India's cybersecurity landscape and how Indian companies are at a severe risk
11:43of cybersecurity attacks. Please watch. Thanks so much for tuning in to Profit Insights.
11:50It pays to speak to somebody who is a behemoth in their space. And we're talking to Checkpoint.
11:58It's a Checkpoint Software Technologies. It's a large cybersecurity firm based out of U.S.
12:03and Rupal Hollenbeck, who is the President of Checkpoint, joins us right now. She's incidentally
12:08in India. Unfortunately, that I'm not with her face to face, but it's great to talk to you,
12:14Ms. Hollenbeck. Thanks so much for taking the time out and speaking to us.
12:17Thank you. Thanks for having me. The pleasure is ours. What prompts this India visit? Because
12:22India is the cynosure of a lot of eyes and a lot of companies which want to expand because
12:27we are growing fast. Is that the principal reason or is there something else?
12:32It's certainly a principal reason. The other is just really the organizations and the pace of
12:38growth that we see here in India. And unfortunately, when you see business growing in a market,
12:46so do the cybersecurity attacks, so do the threat.
12:51Yeah, that's true. You wrote this very interesting note on the India cybersecurity landscape,
12:57rather the cybersecurity landscape as it exists right now. Now, to the naked eye,
13:02Ms. Hollenbeck, it seems natural that as every company becomes tech enabled or a tech company,
13:11if you will, insurance companies tell me that we are no longer just insurance, we are insured tech,
13:14so on and so forth, that cybersecurity will become mainstay for every business worldwide.
13:19What's the pace of growth that you envisage for cybersecurity solutions for the world at large,
13:28if it's possible to predict that or for some major economies? And then I'll kind of narrow
13:32it down to India. Sure. So first of all, about, I don't know, a dozen years ago,
13:39I would have said every company on the planet needs to envision itself as a technology company.
13:44They don't just have an IT department, but technology rather is really woven through the
13:48fabric of organizations. And that's really going to determine an organization's success.
13:54I think now, fast forward a dozen or so years, and I think the same is true for cybersecurity.
14:00If security is not built in to the fabric of an organization, that technology, those people,
14:07those processes are not going to work towards long-term success. And organizations are going
14:12to be increasingly in jeopardy. And certainly on a worldwide level, we see that. We see that
14:18cyber attacks are on the rise per organization. Worldwide, per organization, there are well over
14:27a thousand attacks on every organization every week. Yeah, that's true. So how does that,
14:35what does that mean in terms of any approximate growth rates? Because it's certainly not a
14:41newfound industry, but you could argue that it's not a mature industry because the underlying pace
14:46of everything techifying is going up and therefore the pace of growth should ideally go up. I'm just
14:51trying to understand the nuance here. That's exactly right. In fact, it's really about the
14:56threat landscape. And so the pace of innovation is such in our world today that the cybersecurity
15:03that was needed a dozen years ago, even five years ago, is very different. And that's because of two
15:10things. Number one is companies are transforming. So the digital transformation, it's a real thing.
15:18And workloads are moving from data centers inside of companies. They're moving into the cloud.
15:23They are increasingly multi-cloud and hybrid. And so there's this whole digital transformation
15:29happening. But the other is the intelligence of devices around the world. The threat landscape
15:36has increased because not only is my PC smart, not only is my server smart, but I have my phone
15:45and now I have a smart refrigerator. Now I have a smart washing machine. And so the
15:49sheer proliferation of devices means that there are so many more entry points for the bad guys.
15:55So I would say that the threat landscape grows and so do cybersecurity needs and the industry.
16:03Got it. And I think in one of the reports and the latest publications, you've spoken about so many
16:08large companies having gone through attacks, but it's not just companies, it's also nations which
16:13are now talking of this being a mainstay threat as well. So how does this auger in terms of probable
16:22growth rates for a country like India, part one? And part two, while you are a company which is
16:29trying to make its presence felt here, or rather in a meaningful way, you already have your presence
16:34felt here, but you're trying to expand, let's put it that way. But India also has a multitude of
16:40IT services companies which have a cybersecurity division within themselves, which are trying to
16:48cater to needs back home in India and maybe elsewhere. And there is now, we're starting
16:53to see an emergence of pure play B2B cybersecurity firms as well. So what's the landscape of growth
17:02for everybody in the ecosystem? And how do you foresee the landscape of growth? I know we started
17:08with that, but I would love some detailing here, ma'am. Sure, sure. So as I said globally, so first
17:14it starts with the attacks. It starts with the proliferation of threats and how many attacks are
17:20happening. So remember I said that there are over, well over a thousand attacks that an organization
17:26faces every week. You know, that number in India is more than double. There are over 3,200 attacks
17:33per organization. You speak about IT services. You know, the industries that are attacked the
17:40most worldwide are no different than the industries that are attacked here in India.
17:45And those top industries include healthcare. They include education and the public sector. So you
17:52mentioned attacks that are not just on for-profit organizations, but also on governments. And that
17:58is absolutely true. For us, our business mirrors that threat landscape. And so some of our largest
18:05industries that we serve are government, healthcare, education, followed by financial services
18:13industry. And so these are all industries that are growing by leaps and bounds here in India.
18:19And so we really think about it from an industry perspective and an attack standpoint.
18:24And we see here in India, two big engines of growth. The first engine of growth is the consumption
18:30market itself, the growth of consumers, the growth of smart devices, and the growth of
18:34organizations, things that are consumed here. But there's another engine of growth here in India,
18:39which is true across so many industries, and that's the design and technology industry that
18:45services the world. And so those are really two engines of growth. And that makes us particularly
18:52interested and looking forward to capitalizing on the growth in this market and to be able to serve
18:57the needs of organizations right here in India, as well as global organizations that exist here
19:03to serve the world. Yeah, I mean, if I read the note, Ms. Hollenbeck, it would feel that
19:11India needs to up the spend on cyber attack security more than 5x, right? Because you have
19:17the threat landscape and the major data attacks and data breaches and the attack per organization
19:22number that see in the last six months for India versus global in your report is quite, it's quite
19:27telling. It is. Yeah, it is. So what does this mean in terms of dollar spends that might happen
19:36in the Indian cyber security landscape? Where has it been currently? Because I would presume
19:41that in a conversation that I had with your colleague earlier in the year in the World
19:46Economic Forum, I was told that India's spend relative to the rest of the world is a lot lower,
19:52and maybe there needs to be a bump up there for the right reasons. So per dollar spend on cyber
19:59security, what's the kind of growth that you envisage out of India, ma'am? Yeah, well, the
20:04first thing is, I think we need to address two big challenges. The first is spend, but the second is
20:11talent. And I'll speak about those. So from a spend perspective, I think that if you look at
20:18overall IT spend in India, there's a much smaller percentage of that spend going towards cyber than
20:25in other markets around the world. And so we see the need to pay much closer attention for the sake
20:32of both engines of growth, organizations that serve the world and organizations that are serving
20:37consumers here and organizations here in India. So I think about it in the context of the percentage
20:43of an IT spend that is dedicated towards cyber resilience planning. I think that that's getting
20:49better. I think there's a lot further that we can go. And I think that's driven largely by boards
20:57and by regulation. Regulation stipulates through many different measures that organizations need
21:04to inform their boards and inform the government when there are material breaches. I think that by
21:11design is going to show organizations how important it is to invest in cybersecurity.
21:17And there's not just a technology impact here. There's a human data impact and there's a business
21:22impact, a real dollar impact. And so boards are starting to pay more attention. So I think while
21:27that number is small today, I think it's relative to the rest of the world. I do think it is growing
21:34and we're starting to see that which warrant frequent and more visits by companies like
21:40myself. Now, on the other side of things, the other area of investment is in the people.
21:45Worldwide, the World Economic Forum, in fact, reports that there's approximately 4 million
21:53vacancies in cybersecurity, 4 million cybersecurity professionals that we are short in the world.
21:59Here in India, that number today is over 40,000. So we are short over 40,000 skilled cybersecurity
22:06professionals. And I think as the spend goes up, as the regulation goes up, and as the business
22:11impact assessment goes up, I think that shortage is going to, unfortunately, become bigger.
22:16And so there's a lot that needs to be done in investment in terms of the hard dollars,
22:21but it's not just that. It's also investing in the education and skilling of a workforce
22:28that's able to build cyber resilience into organizations here.
22:32Okay, so the people spend as important too. I was just wondering, before we wrap up,
22:37Ms. Hollenbeck, any growth rates that you envisage in the spend? I heard you say that
22:45there is a need for the spend to go up. But when you are thinking of the India business plan
22:50at checkpoint, are you laying out a number of growth rate, CAGR, over the next five,
22:56seven years, that you envisage in the Indian spends on cybersecurity?
23:00Well, at an Asia level, at an Asia level today, we report that over 11% of our global revenues
23:07are coming from the Asia-Pacific market. India is a significant part of that, but certainly not
23:15all of it. So over 11% of our revenue comes from Asia-Pacific. Based on what we see in terms of
23:22the Fortune Global 2000 landscape, in terms of the growth that we see in the large enterprise
23:29here in India, we should be seeing that accelerate significantly. And I think those
23:33opportunities do exist. We're tremendously proud of the business that we have here today
23:39across many verticals, including healthcare, education, government, and financial services,
23:45but there is so much more to be done. And we continue to invest in our workforce here,
23:50and we continue to invest in our office presence here. In fact, we've just recently opened a brand
23:56new office in Bangalore, and our growth continues here. And we're very proud of that, and we still
24:02have a long way to go.