Ancien trotsko-lambertiste, Patrick Gofman publie une nouvelle édition de « Le trotskisme dégénéré ». Depuis 1938, le trotskisme et ses mille chapelles se présente comme la direction alternative du prolétariat révolutionnaire mondial. Et pourtant , la chaloupe de cette idéologie nuisible a coulé dans un immense naufrage, en même temps que le paquebot stalinien. Comme le rappelle d’ailleurs l’auteur : « Le stalinisme, c’est le massacre de l’homme par l’homme. Le trotskisme, c’est le contraire. ».
Patrick Gofman décrit avec précision, références, humour et cruauté, les dégénérescences parallèles des staliniens et des trotskistes, leur choc fatal avec l’iceberg de l’Histoire, leurs gargouillis à travers leurs derniers rejetons : Melenchon, Panot, Quattenens et quelques autres.
Patrick Gofman décrit avec précision, références, humour et cruauté, les dégénérescences parallèles des staliniens et des trotskistes, leur choc fatal avec l’iceberg de l’Histoire, leurs gargouillis à travers leurs derniers rejetons : Melenchon, Panot, Quattenens et quelques autres.
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00:00 [Music]
00:06 And for this Zoom, I am very happy to welcome the journalist and writer Patrick Goffman.
00:11 Hello Patrick Goffman.
00:12 Hello Marshall Build.
00:13 And you come to see me for the reissue of your book entitled "The degenerate Trotskyism",
00:18 a book you wrote in 2013, which has just been reissued at the Alfa publishing house,
00:23 which is for sale on the website www.tvl.fr.
00:26 2013, first edition, 2023, second edition. Isn't the book obsolete?
00:32 That's a very good question, but I think that if our friend Philippe Rondin
00:37 offered me to reissue it ten years later,
00:40 and ten years later, our interview here at the same place,
00:44 Here at TVL, in this studio,
00:45 for the first edition,
00:47 it is because he wanted to take an interest in the 20 additional pages
00:53 that I produced, especially around the amusing section of the Lambertist sect,
01:00 which now exists in double copies for the great pleasure of the working people.
01:06 So, I will try to write to you that the Trotskyist chaloupe flows at the same time as the Stalinist paquebo.
01:13 So, the objection of the neophyte, but we often do it to you,
01:16 is to say to oneself, but Stalinism and Trotskyism, it's very different.
01:21 So, how can the Stalinist titanic lead the nice little Trotskyist chaloupe?
01:29 It is true that we know little about Stalin's worst crimes,
01:34 which were suggested, outright suggested, by Trotsky and his leftist opposition,
01:42 in the documents of which we can read in every letter
01:46 curses against the kulaks, murderous curses,
01:50 or we can read the project of militarization of labor,
01:55 which is actually a slavery program that Stalin adopted
02:00 after getting rid of the author of his social progress.
02:06 So, Trotskyism and Stalinism, it's very different.
02:10 It's different, that is to say that Trotskyism is the leftist opposition of Bolshevism,
02:17 and in this regard, we can think that it is worse.
02:22 This Trotskyism has managed to present itself, if you allow me to express it,
02:27 as a "communism liked", and yet Trotsky, you say it,
02:31 has written entire pages of the black book of communism,
02:35 and he has, for example, Lenin as a protector.
02:38 So, he did not commit only his program of extermination of the kulaks,
02:44 of Russian peasants, and of slavery, and of labor transformed into slavery.
02:50 He acted as a rather brilliant creator and leader,
02:54 it must be recognized, of the Red Army,
02:57 and as a massacrer of the anarchists of Makhno in Ukraine.
03:03 He had first of all, slyly allied with them against the whites,
03:07 and then, as soon as the whites were repulsed, he massacred his allies.
03:11 Same thing in Kronstadt, the fortress of Kronstadt,
03:14 which is in front of St. Petersburg, revolted in 1921,
03:19 in the name of socialism, of true socialism, according to the sailors of Kronstadt,
03:25 who had already done a lot for the Bolshevik power,
03:28 and who want true socialism.
03:31 It is a massacre, organized and led by Trotsky.
03:34 The exciting detail, when you want to know it,
03:38 is that he boasts of this massacre in the most brutal terms.
03:42 In the Izvestia, you know, there is no news in the Izvestia,
03:47 and there is no truth in Pravda,
03:49 but a few years later, inaugurating Trotskyismolite,
03:54 I think he is a refugee in France at that time,
03:58 he denies, outright, he denies this massacre.
04:05 It's not him, it's Stalin, but yet it was him,
04:09 the organizer, the leader of the massacre in Kronstadt.
04:13 Who is Trotsky? Where does he come from?
04:17 I think it's easy to know.
04:22 He is a Jewish peasant, well, the son of a peasant.
04:26 He was born in a fairly rich farm in Ukraine,
04:30 but he immediately became a Bolshevik, a Bolshevik,
04:37 a revolutionary, and an aggressive intellectual,
04:42 but extremely brilliant.
04:44 We are not going to say here that he became the number two
04:49 of the Bolshevik power, by chance, or by I don't know what protection,
04:54 even if Lenin was protecting him,
04:56 and we saw it when Lenin died in 1924,
04:59 Trotsky's star immediately shone a lot.
05:03 How do you explain the attraction of the ideology
05:06 and also of the Trotsky character,
05:08 each one, a charm, a charm to which you will succumb yourself
05:13 as Trotsky-Lambertist leader from 1967 to 1979.
05:18 First, this first question,
05:20 why do we fall under the charm of a massacrer, of an assassin?
05:25 A little delicious detail that we were hiding, of course.
05:30 It was indeed Trotskyism for human rights,
05:34 Light, etc., which was a joke,
05:37 that we could have discovered, that we could have identified,
05:43 but it was so much more pleasant to think that at 17 or 18,
05:49 barely closing the manifesto of the Communist Party,
05:53 we were told that the real communists,
05:56 those who were going, I quote Trotsky,
05:58 "to inaugurate a paradise on this earth",
06:01 we were going to be the agents.
06:03 And then, moreover, maybe become something like
06:06 "Red Prefect" in my Calvados,
06:09 that I represented,
06:10 Leader, you give me too much or not enough.
06:14 - I was responsible.
06:15 - I was responsible for the Calvados,
06:18 of the twenty-odd activists of the Calvados,
06:20 and I spent a year at the National Committee,
06:24 and no more.
06:26 - Trotsko-Lambertist,
06:29 so it requires Trotsky, I understand,
06:31 Lambertist, where does this term come from, from whom?
06:34 - Well, in three words, because it's not exciting.
06:37 Lambert is the pseudonym of Pierre Boussel,
06:42 who shattered, who touched all his supporters.
06:50 - Was it the fashion of the pseudonym,
06:53 or was it necessary, it was the rule?
06:55 - It was the rule because,
06:57 - You called him that?
06:58 - Because of, for security, during the war and the occupation,
07:04 and it has been prolonged.
07:06 Myself, I was nicknamed,
07:09 I was nicknamed myself "Duchesne",
07:13 but it was a precaution,
07:15 because even for a few years after the war,
07:18 there was no Trotskyist meeting in the suburbs,
07:20 without a rather severe break of the mouth.
07:22 So it was a precaution,
07:25 so a precaution of rules, indeed.
07:28 - Lambert, Boussel, is someone who was important,
07:31 unknown to the general public,
07:33 but nevertheless a character to whom many people have attached themselves.
07:37 - Yes.
07:38 - Since we know little about him, what do you know about him?
07:43 - Not much. His father was a Jewish "Casquetier".
07:48 What else to say from a personal point of view, I don't know,
07:52 but I remember his oratory style,
07:56 it was not our, if I can say another,
08:00 so long after, 40 years after, our best orator,
08:05 he had an extraordinary Paris-Gaux accent,
08:08 but undeniably he had an authority,
08:11 almost crazy with the passage of time,
08:14 because he organized trials in Moscow,
08:18 on the French and Parisian scale,
08:21 he turned the whole direction of the party,
08:23 which was still made of solid and brilliant people,
08:27 like historian Pierre Brouille, historian Jean-Jacques Marie,
08:31 he turned them one after the other with extreme brutality.
08:37 So he had a slightly unhealthy authority,
08:43 it seems to me, but undeniably very firm.
08:46 As comrade Lambert says,
08:49 it was a start of speech, of intervention,
08:55 including outside.
08:56 - Did people like Arlette Laguiller
08:59 take orders from him, is that a view of the mind?
09:02 - Not at all, because sects are generally heard very badly,
09:07 and the three main branches or main sects of the Trotskyism in France,
09:12 we often came into contact with the people of the League,
09:16 I still see them running in front of me,
09:18 and unfortunately for those we caught up with,
09:22 Arlette Laguiller took the orders of the guru of her sect,
09:28 of whom we are escaping for the moment, but it does not matter,
09:32 and of no one else, and especially not of the intimate enemy,
09:36 Lambert, and the intimate enemy, Krivine,
09:39 each one his own way, each one his own path.
09:42 - And each one his own sect.
09:43 So this official extreme left is broken down into several movements.
09:49 - That's the word, that's the word, it's better.
09:51 - It's a good evocation.
09:52 So I said it, that of the workers' struggle, you speak,
09:55 so we met Arlette Laguiller, we now know Nathalie Artaud,
09:59 and you speak of a secret, skeletal, and sluggish society.
10:06 - For the workers' struggle, I know, we know,
10:11 well, everyone knows, that they are strongly discouraged from having children,
10:17 because all their energy, all their money,
10:20 must go into the activity, into the financial and personal support of the party.
10:27 - It's been a long time.
10:29 - What?
10:30 - It's not the case anymore, it's still the case.
10:32 - It's been a long time since I've been informed,
10:35 because I always had a tendency to miss it a little,
10:38 because for me it was crazy, and it remains so.
10:42 I mean, forbid, censor personal life, prevent you from having children.
10:47 I may have known, shared a certain fanaticism with Lambert,
10:52 there, it seems to me that it goes beyond all the measures,
10:54 and that it's pure madness.
10:56 - With always people, with always the possibility of presenting themselves without presidential...
11:00 - There are always 800 followers, and no more, as far as I know.
11:04 - But 500 signatures each time, 500 signatures to the presidential candidate.
11:08 - These slaves, these slaves travel through France from top to bottom,
11:13 with 12 hours or 14 hours a day, of course.
11:17 I think that anyone, any dozen or twenty fanatics can get these signatures.
11:25 There are many mothers who give it by democratic principle.
11:30 - Lambert is the Workers' Party until the end?
11:34 - It's now, you mean?
11:36 - Because I don't know if he exists or not, I don't know, frankly.
11:38 - Until his end. - Until his end, after the Workers' Party has disappeared?
11:40 - So, it's renewed in a way, by forgetting, until the name of Lambert and of Quatrième Internationale,
11:49 to constitute an independent workers' party, POI,
11:56 which vowed, almost immediately after the disappearance of Lambert,
12:02 to build and defend the Republic, democracy, and I don't know what else.
12:08 Hence my somewhat controversial but quite fair term, I think, of degenerate Trotskyism,
12:13 because what is democracy and liberalism soon have to do with Trotskyism?
12:21 Besides, they exclude, they no longer use the term Trotskyism or Bolshevism for a few years.
12:29 And it led to a split. So now we have two POI.
12:33 The POI D has appeared, with Daniel Gluckstein at its head,
12:39 who was the leader, the successor designated by Lambert.
12:44 So, as he came from the Communist League, the old upper branches of Lambertism took him pretty badly,
12:52 and it rotted or rotten for a good decade before the split.
12:59 So, Gluckstein left with the money, and the others, Shapira in particular,
13:06 stayed in their offices with the newspaper, and I'm pretty mean to smile at that.
13:15 And then, and finally, the LCR became the NPA, the New Anti-Capitalist Party.
13:22 In 2023, Krivine is dead, Besançon is no longer on the board,
13:27 and they seem to be on the verge of disappearance,
13:30 just as much as the Workers' Party and the Stagnation of the Workers' Struggle.
13:34 Yes, indeed, they are weakening. Besançon was quite clear once,
13:40 when he said that he didn't know very well what it was to be a Trotskyist.
13:46 Well, I don't know if it will be useful for something I explain to him,
13:49 but he can always get out, how much already? 21 euros to learn from me,
13:56 because I have the impression that I know what it is,
14:00 and the danger that it represents to be a Trotskyist.
14:04 But, indeed, the Ligue has degenerated even more than Lambertism, by becoming NPA.
14:12 But, then, this is where I say to myself, and I come back to the notion of obsolescence of the book,
14:19 as long as it is not abounded in the pages you have added.
14:23 It is that we have almost the scientific proof of the adage in politics,
14:32 "We never die", because you devote a chapter to the Workers' Struggle,
14:37 a chapter to the LCR, NPA, and a chapter to the Workers' Party,
14:41 which has become the PYD, and these are on the verge of disappearance.
14:47 But, hasn't there been, quite simply, a mutation,
14:51 and all these living forces, or these remnants of living forces,
14:55 have engaged alongside Jean-Luc Mélenchon and LFI?
14:59 You say in a chapter entitled "A few obstacles on the charron of Trotsky-Lambertism",
15:05 you quote Jean-Luc Mélenchon, and you say, "He is one of those who inspire me the most, repugnance".
15:10 Yes, but he is a man who lacks to be in the second round of the presidential election,
15:14 with a few hundred thousand votes, and who today weighs 80 deputies,
15:19 and 22%, the nuptial, 22%, or even 30% of electoral suffrages for the next elections.
15:27 Martial Bill, I am obliged to repeat to you, word for word,
15:32 what I said to you here, exactly 10 years ago,
15:38 namely, that, as you were saying,
15:46 yes, obsolescence.
15:49 The goal of my book, from its first to its second edition,
15:53 is not to settle personal accounts, although I have accounts to settle,
15:58 but I do not pretend to settle them in this way.
16:01 The goal of my book is to assess communism as a whole,
16:07 of which Trotskyism is a kind of appendix, an annex.
16:12 It is a detail of the history of communism.
16:16 And communism is one of the most, and even quite permanent, utopias,
16:23 which must be feared in return.
16:28 So my work of denouncing Trotskyism, its degeneracy,
16:33 and its crimes and lies, yesterday again, on Saturday,
16:37 on France Inter Radio National, I heard,
16:41 explained by Jean-Jacques-Marie, a Trotskyist historian,
16:46 that when Lenin made people hang, ordered people to hang,
16:50 or ordered people to shoot, it was for fun.
16:54 Thank you for the families, in mourning, by thousands and thousands,
16:57 of Lenin's time, waiting for his legitimate successor, Stalin,
17:03 to succeed him and use even more cruel methods.
17:06 You are not answering my question, Patrick Goffman.
17:08 Jean-Luc Mélenchon, a third of the voices today.
17:11 Today, there are LFI deputies who claim to be Robespierre.
17:15 There are leaders, union leaders of the CGT, who claim to be Stalin.
17:19 There are political leaders who call themselves communists.
17:23 The communism you denounce today, well, there is a Communist Party,
17:26 there are LFI communists, this term is almost fashionable.
17:30 So the Nuremberg, their Nuremberg, must be prepared, must be fed.
17:35 I am throwing this piece, the degenerate Trotskyism,
17:38 at the Nuremberg trial, at the Nuremberg of communism,
17:41 which will eventually happen.
17:44 As for Mélenchon, indeed, he repudiates me a little,
17:47 because he first lived, for 35 years,
17:51 roped for 35 years at the bottom of the Senate,
17:54 before discovering that the Stalinist and Social Democrat leaders
17:58 had become so bad that they could capture their voices
18:01 and replace them, and replace them, as he is doing,
18:05 or trying to do, because two days ago,
18:08 Europe Ecologie des Verts survey,
18:12 11% for France, said insubordinate, ha ha, I laugh.
18:18 Nevertheless, I continue on my idea, the degenerate Trotskyism.
18:23 And to finish with Trotskyist mythology,
18:26 that's the purpose of your operation.
18:28 And when we see that the poison of the far left,
18:32 of the ultra left, I would say, of Armagnan, or almost,
18:35 is spreading at the university, is spreading in the unions,
18:40 in the associative world, in the media, of course,
18:43 they did not wait for me.
18:45 They are winning, aren't they?
18:47 Ha ha, no, no, no, they are breaking up.
18:49 The left, for me, the left is breaking up.
18:51 I think that if the most hard left fraction,
18:56 the most ruthless, namely Trotskyism,
18:59 degenerates, as I analyze it,
19:03 then the rotten soft left is breaking up,
19:08 as you said so well earlier.
19:11 - Stalinism is the massacre of man by man,
19:14 Trotskyism is the opposite. Is that yours?
19:17 - No, it's not mine, I copied it from a joker,
19:20 funny, I forgot which one,
19:23 but it seems to me that it sums up things well, yes.
19:26 Trotsky massacred, and Trotsky suggested to Stalin,
19:31 with the program of the opposition of the left,
19:34 the massacre of the kulaks, the massacre of Kronstadt,
19:38 before denying it.
19:40 But Trotsky, it's the left opposition of Stalinism,
19:47 of Bolshevism, and we must prepare, feed
19:51 the Nuremberg of this calamity.
19:54 - How, and this is my last question,
19:56 I already asked you here,
19:58 we already asked each other a long time ago,
20:00 how do we go from a Trotskyist-Lambertist militant
20:04 to an exemplary supporter of the national movement
20:08 in its entirety, what you have been doing since 1986
20:11 with a lot of constancy, I give you an act,
20:14 how do we do it?
20:16 - At least you don't tell me Trotskyist,
20:18 once Trotskyist, always,
20:20 which raises a question, the question of knowing
20:23 why for 40 years I have not done anything
20:27 to harm the national movement,
20:29 but I have done my part, as actively,
20:31 as intelligently as I can.
20:35 - Yes, but it's a good question,
20:37 and the answer is why,
20:39 how do we go from Trotskyist to French nationalist?
20:43 - I don't have three hours left to tell my life,
20:46 but we start by being excluded,
20:48 I was a devoted and even fanatic militant,
20:51 I was excluded because I published my first novel
20:54 forgetting to ask for permission to participate in it,
20:59 and there, Neil Obstadt, a premature,
21:02 I didn't have it, so I was fired,
21:05 and a few years later,
21:07 Lambert, 27 Lambert supporters,
21:11 went to prison,
21:13 after stealing from the Social Security cash desk,
21:16 the Social Security business committee cash desk,
21:19 the scales fell off my eyes,
21:21 I thought, these are those scoundrels
21:23 who were doing my job from morning to night,
21:26 and who exploited me,
21:28 and who made me work for free like a slave,
21:31 and there I started to ask myself questions,
21:34 and to answer them by myself,
21:36 that these people were dishonest,
21:39 and that this scum was succeeding many others,
21:42 including the ones I had been a victim of,
21:45 and after this literary exclusion,
21:47 which was quite flattering from a certain point of view,
21:50 I worked as a night watchman for a few years,
21:54 and then I met a circular,
21:57 Beruf-Zerbot, of a work ban,
22:00 who sent me to hotels as a night watchman
22:04 for years and years,
22:06 and there is a hole in my bibliography,
22:08 those who are interested in me enough
22:10 will look in one of my books,
22:12 and there is a hole of 15 years in my bibliography,
22:15 and this is the result of the Lambertist circular
22:18 of a work ban,
22:20 which I had knowledge of in detail,
22:23 because it even landed among simple sympathizers,
22:27 with the aim of harming...
22:31 - The social movement,
22:33 while waiting for another one.
22:35 - It doesn't explain me,
22:37 it's really my last question,
22:39 but I really have to make efforts
22:41 to join the national movement by resentment, right?
22:44 - No, not at all,
22:46 because after seeing Léon Berthys
22:48 go around in prison,
22:50 I turned around,
22:52 and I saw that while I was running
22:54 behind the Daou,
22:56 you know this game,
22:58 an imaginary animal,
23:00 the Daou of socialism,
23:02 they were demolishing in my back
23:04 something very real,
23:06 namely my country,
23:08 and exploiting it,
23:10 and calling it "this country",
23:12 as they say,
23:14 and it was unbearable.
23:16 So, when I'm called nationalist,
23:19 it's a lot to say, I'm a patriot,
23:21 and for what I have left to live,
23:23 I would like to continue to defend
23:26 the country that gave me so much,
23:28 free studies,
23:30 by supporting my "chahuts",
23:32 and even by supporting my transchism
23:34 for 12 years.
23:36 - Patriot one day, patriot always.
23:38 Thank you Patrick Goffman.
23:40 The degenerate trotskyism
23:42 is at the Alfa publishing house,
23:44 I told you, it's on the website
23:46 www.tvl.fr, you go to the "shops" section
23:48 directly on www.tvl.fr,
23:50 but you took some,
23:52 and you are many, the habit,
23:54 and you are many to make orders
23:56 directly thanks to TVL,
23:58 which offers you this service,
24:00 and which allows you to avoid
24:02 ordering your books on GAFA,
24:04 especially on trading platforms
24:06 like TVL. Thank you, Marcial Bild.
24:08 www.tvl.fr