When Will the Heat Trade for Damian Lillard? | Garden Report - video Dailymotion

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Bobby Manning and Wes Goldberg preview another year of the Celtics and Heat competing atop the eastern conference on the Garden Report. Will Miami be able to complete a trade for Damian Lillard, and when they do, will they have enough depth left over to win the east against deeper teams like Boston, the Bucks, Knicks and Cavaliers?  Garden Report Sponsored by:  Fanduel Sportsbook, the exclusive wagering partner of the CLNS Media Network. NEW customers can bet $5  and get $200 in BONUS BETS – GUARANTEED. Now is the best time to join FanDuel! The app is easy to use and you can be on everything from spreads to player props and more! So, visit FanDuel.com/BOSTON and kick off the NFL season with an offer you won’t wanna miss.  21+ and present in MA. Hope is here. First online real money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as nonwithdrawable bonus bets that expire 7 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. GamblingHelpLineMa.org or call (800)-327-5050 for 24/7 support. Play it smart from the start! GameSenseMA.com or call 1-800-GAM-1234.  AG1! If a comprehensive solution is what you need from your supplement routine, then try AG1 and get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase. Go to https://drinkAG1.com/GARDEN !  Hello Fresh! Go to https://HelloFresh.com/CLNS50 and use code CLNS50 for 50% off plus 15% off the next 2 months!  ODDS-R! Ever wished you could navigate the betting field with the confidence of a pro? Enter OddsR. They're not a sportsbook, but they're the sports betting advisor you've always needed. It's like having a playbook for smarter bets right in your pocket. I've been absolutely loving the experience, and I think you will too. Especially since Pats Interference listeners get a 30-day free trial! Elevate your game day and join the smart betting revolution! Go get it at https://oddsr.com/celtics

Transcript

00:00 the Garden Report just a couple weeks till training camp. So I'm gonna get into some of

00:04 the biggest Celtics questions. I got a Center Conversation, Film Debate, Breakdown thing coming

00:10 down on who might start alongside Christophs Porzingis. I put an article up on it on clnsmedia.com.

00:18 But I want to bounce around the east a little bit too as camp begins and I've been meaning to do a

00:22 heat show since the Damian Lilly trade talk started and stalled and period of standstill for now. And

00:30 Wes Goldberg's back, great friend of the show here. Last talk to you before game seven, which went in

00:38 a direction I don't think either of us saw going. Whether you thought the Heat were gonna win or not

00:42 it just ended up being a blowout with that crazy home court and all the momentum swaying Boston's

00:48 direction. So going into this year Wes, my thought is it's tough to give the Celtics the benefit of

00:55 the doubt come playoff time over Miami even with the changes they made. I'll get your thoughts on

00:59 those later. But also considering that Damian Lillard could be joining this team by playoff time

01:04 too. So we know the deal at this point. Nothing that happens in the regular season matters in

01:11 Miami. Once they get into the playoffs it's going to be a whole different conversation and that's

01:17 probably more true than ever this year because they lost some key guys. It's probably going to

01:21 take a while to sort out this Lillard situation. And they've now defeated the Celtics in two of

01:28 the last three East Finals they faced in and almost had them in the third. So you got to give Miami,

01:34 even if you don't go into this season saying that they're the favorite and you probably shouldn't,

01:39 the benefit of the doubt that they could get hot at the right time late, beat the Celtics at the

01:45 very least. And we'll see from there. I'm, I'm, I'm, I guess surprised to hear you say that because

01:53 I still don't, I've been traumatized by a couple of East Finals. I don't know that I would even

01:59 say that the Miami Heat should be considered favorites in the East. You know what I mean?

02:02 And no, they shouldn't be, I'd say over the Celtics in a series. I see what you mean.

02:07 Well, in that case, I mean, look, the Miami Heat are sort of the Boston Celtics boogeyman, right?

02:12 Like there's not, they just, they seem to get in their heads, you know? And it's interesting,

02:16 the whole Marcus smart thing, people are like, uh, understandably concerned. Like he was the

02:22 heart and soul of the team. He was the tough guy, the whole thing. Like if you lose him,

02:25 you know, where are you kind of getting that edge from? And I guess my counterpoint to that

02:29 has been for a couple of months now, it's like, well, it hasn't really helped them win the

02:32 championship. You know what I mean? Like if on one hand, Boston's problem is that they're

02:37 a little soft when, you know, on the biggest stage, you, the other thing can't also be true.

02:44 It's like, well, they're kind of soft, but the heart and soul of the team is gone. It's like,

02:47 well, if the heart and soul of the team is soft, then it shouldn't really matter if the tough guy

02:51 is gone. Cause obviously it wasn't tough enough. I know that's like kind of distilling it down a

02:55 little bit too much, but I, I am curious to see how Marcus smart leaving forces Tatum and Jalen

03:03 Brown to take on more of a like leadership roles in that locker room and see if it changes the

03:07 personality, which again, talent has never been Boston's issue, whether or not it's toughness,

03:12 softness, whatever it is. Again, that stuff is so overstated and binary. They just needed a change.

03:18 And I think that like getting Chris drops, Porzingis is obviously a big part of that trade,

03:22 but I think a big part of that trade too, is just sort of challenging Tatum and Brown to be the

03:25 leaders that they didn't really have to be. They could just sort of do the scoring and all the

03:30 stuff that they do so well and leave all the leadership stuff to Marcus smart and whoever was

03:34 the head coach. Now it kind of puts the onus on them to step up in that way. Yeah. And you said

03:39 everything I've said pretty much since the trade happened. This is a move to force Brown and Tatum

03:45 to step into those leadership roles. If you were going to make a change at some point that didn't

03:51 involve Brown or Tatum, it probably had to be smart and you never would have known what would

03:56 happen if you never did it, especially before making a move on Brown, which we'll get to in

04:02 the coming years based on how things go this year. But you got a lot back for smart looking back on

04:08 it. And I don't love the move. I do think the leadership and intangible issues might be in

04:14 other places here. We'll see again, it's on Brown and Tatum to finally leave this team where it

04:18 needs to go. Now at this point, there's really no other excuse left. They've messed with everything

04:23 else. The coach, the smart, smart all the way down the line. I've gotten them role players.

04:28 Now they've gotten them a third star. So this is a huge year for them. There's no doubt about it.

04:32 But I do worry a little bit about what taking smart out of the room does, at least in terms

04:38 of accountability for this group, judging on how Joe coached his team last year. And maybe he'll

04:43 make some adjustments going in. I'm very interested to just see the whole demeanor of this team and

04:47 how they're looking at this team come this season, come media day, but for presingers

04:51 specifically, and I guess we'll start out with the Celtics. I watched a lot of film on him this

04:57 summer, and I especially watched a lot of film again of him against the heat for obvious reasons.

05:03 And the numbers weren't great, especially the shooting numbers in those games. But just looking

05:09 at the film, there was some interesting stuff he did against them. And obviously he had a great

05:14 post up season, great season inside the arc. The mid range with him is just about as good as the

05:19 three, but they, you know, the wizards did some good stuff in terms of getting him the ball inside,

05:24 having him make quick decisions against the zone. And of course, that middle areas with a big guy

05:31 who can see over the defense and all of that is kind of what you want against a heat zone defense

05:37 that is really challenged the Celtics offense in recent years. And it's obviously just another guy

05:41 that you have to account for on this offense that can be pretty explosive for Boston.

05:46 Yeah. Boston's bigs haven't really given Miami any problems over the last couple of years.

05:50 They don't score. They don't score. And Porzingis, to your point, the numbers haven't been good.

05:54 They weren't good for the wizards, but the wizards weren't good. So, you know, it's like,

05:59 which one it's like a chicken or the egg type deal. Yeah. I Porzingis on paper is sort of a

06:05 problem for the heat, for all the things that for all the reasons you already laid out. And then

06:10 just in a vacuum, I thought Porzingis played the best basketball his career last season. It wasn't

06:14 as loud and as big as his days when he was playing in Madison Square Garden, obviously, but I thought

06:18 he was making quick decisions. I thought defensively he was as good as he's ever been. Again, like so

06:24 many blocked shots and stuff like that when you play for the Knicks, but just like positional

06:27 defense, it was better last year than it had been in any other point of his career. I spoke with him

06:32 last year for a feature I wrote on him, too, and he felt the same way. And he felt like if his

06:36 numbers like you said, the shooting numbers were sort of up and down. And he said that he's like,

06:40 if I can just get the shooting to where I know I can get it, like just watch my game take off,

06:45 I think I could be an all star again. And I think I agree with him. You know, it kind of

06:49 feels like the injury issues are a little bit behind him now. And and with his size and his

06:55 he's a good shooter, he's got that ability. And when the decision making gets better,

07:00 and he's better at like kind of putting the ball on the floor and just driving,

07:02 he doesn't actually have to dunk. He doesn't have to do anything flashy, but he could just

07:05 kind of be a three and at the rim kind of guy offensively. The post up stuff you already

07:11 mentioned is pretty good. I don't know if it's that that might be his career best last year,

07:14 but it's still going to be pretty good in terms of his numbers. And then defensively,

07:19 I think he's really solid and you pair him with a guy like Al Horford or Robert Williams or

07:22 whatever they end up doing in the front court, you can obviously play KP at the five if you want to

07:27 and go smaller. I really like that move for Boston. I liked it right away. I actually don't

07:32 worry about losing Marcus Ward at all. And as from the Heat's perspective, I think you've got

07:37 to be a little bit worried about how well balanced that roster is. And maybe that that makeup chain,

07:42 it's like, OK, like we kind of knew what this thing was. We kind of had their number for the

07:47 last couple of years. Is this going to make it that much different? It's just you got to be a

07:52 little you got to approach with a little bit more caution, I think, if you're the Miami Heat than

07:55 you did in the past. I still think that at the end of the day, they've got Jimmy Butler, they've got

08:00 the DNA and they've got like the stuff that has given Boston problems. And I probably still would

08:04 take Miami in a series, to your point, if we're talking about playoff series. But I don't know,

08:08 I think the Celtics will be better. I do. They should be if they're healthy. And that's probably

08:13 the largest concern here is the health factor with him. I don't know what he told you on the

08:17 health front. You know, when you talk to him about last year and just how he said the same thing,

08:21 every player says, I feel great. My body's never been better. And it was true for him last year.

08:25 He played a lot compared to 60 something games, right? Sixty five. Yeah. The the all NBA rule,

08:32 we can call it the Porzingis. Yeah. The Porzingis line. And he hasn't been an all star either. So

08:36 they can actually arrest him with this new rule here, which helps them. They get the interchangeable

08:40 bigs. It's definitely balance, as you say, there. We'll see what happens with Bragdon. That's a

08:44 conversation for another day in terms of his health and where he's at coming into the season.

08:49 But for Porzingis specifically. The health does concern me, but the play last year, as you said,

08:57 the shooting was just awesome. I've looked up a couple of times last year and he obviously

09:02 destroyed Boston in that late game between the Wizards and Celtics. It was just amazing how

09:07 devastating he was offensively in that game with no one really around him. I think Beal and Kuzma

09:11 were in that game. But I looked up a couple of times last year and you mentioned him getting

09:16 back to all star status. He was really close to that all NBA spot on the third. If you look at it,

09:22 Sabonis deserved it. You know, when you just stack things up there, but if there was a fourth team,

09:29 Porzingis would have had that center spot. He'll probably have a pretty good spot at getting it

09:33 this year. But you do go from being the guy on a team to being the third option here and spotting

09:39 up a lot. And I was going through some quotes of Joe Mazzola once they when they got him. And I

09:45 don't know if he just kind of said this casually and didn't really mean it, but he talked about

09:49 them using him the same way they did Horford, which is mostly spotting up from three. You know,

09:55 if he's going to hit a ton of threes at a high volume, that's going to help this team. But there

10:00 is also a vast array of things he can give a team when we mentioned the post-ups, when we mentioned

10:06 the mid-range with him that you'd like to see help diversify this offense a little bit, because

10:12 we saw it in game six and seven against Miami. They had their two worst shooting nights of the

10:17 season, and that was pretty much the season for them. They come away with the putback in game six,

10:21 but in game seven, they're even colder. I think they're in the low twenties from three that night.

10:25 And that was it for them. They really didn't have alternatives of places they could go on the floor

10:30 outside of some Jalen mid-rangers. And the heat obviously would turn it up to heat on Jalen's

10:35 dribble in that series. That's I mean, they literally said like they know he can't go left.

10:40 So yeah. And look, the scattering report on Jalen Brown has been out there. We'll see if that can

10:45 improve. He's still just seems so mechanical as a ball handler. And that's the thing that gives me

10:50 worry. It's it's it's this idea that it's like, who's the table setter on that offense? I think

10:56 poor Zingas can do a little bit of that. You mentioned before, like having a guy who's like

11:00 seven, three out there, you can just sort of like lay the ball down where it needs to go

11:04 to his teammates is really helpful. But I also don't see them using him as like Nikola Jokic,

11:09 you know, or even like the way that Miami uses Bam at a bio because the ball has to be in Jason

11:13 Tatum's hands so much. And obviously, Jalen Brown's hands to like this Tatum take that next step.

11:18 Can you develop some real pick and roll chemistry with anybody on the team? Because it doesn't

11:23 it hasn't really happened with Rob Williams or Horford as a pick a pop guy or KP as maybe it's

11:28 going to be with poor Zingas as a pick and pop and a pick and roll guy because he could do both.

11:31 That to me is where my biggest concern is for the Celtics. But again, like they weren't really

11:36 getting that from Marcus Smart. That was always sort of something Marcus Smart had to try to do

11:40 that was out of his comfort zone. He wasn't even like even in Oklahoma State. He wasn't really like

11:43 a like a ball handling set the table point guard. So I don't know that they made any, you know,

11:51 additions that can help that. But it's it's just like to me, it keeps going back to do you change

11:57 the internal chemistry and and just the whole morale and all of that stuff in the locker room?

12:03 And does that lead to just some other sparks on the floor where Tatum's all of a sudden like,

12:07 you know what, I'm going to be the guy who sets the table for everybody. I'm going to try to make

12:11 my game a little bit more LeBron and a little bit less to rank or something like that. And that'll

12:15 be interesting to see. Yeah. And I thought Smart did a better job with it than people gave him

12:20 credit for. I think he was the best passer on the team. Certainly a team that had its turnover

12:24 issues and facilitating problems, as you say, there, they weren't in a great place with it.

12:28 So it makes sense to shake it up. And they didn't necessarily get a replacement, as you say,

12:33 in terms of the passing. But Derek White, with what he does overall, I think made them comfortable

12:40 with making that move. And he had a better season last year. There's really no argument there.

12:44 And they'll have to make a decision on his contract to pretty soon here. So you want to give

12:49 him that full shot, especially with the playoffs he had. I mean, he shot close to 40 percent for

12:54 the whole season from three, like 800 shots between the regular postseason. So he's a great

13:00 sample there of him hitting threes effectively. He can screen, he can pass, he can make quick

13:08 decisions. He doesn't turn the ball over really ever. I think he's got some of the lowest turnover

13:12 numbers in the league among guys at that position. So I feel good about that. Again, with Smart,

13:18 it's the intangibles. And that's really what it's been with this team. As you said, well,

13:22 they've had the talent in recent years. You're really just stacking in another score with

13:27 Porzingis, one who can do it a bunch of different ways, but not really a guy who impacts the

13:32 facilitating at all. So that to me is why I have a little bit of a pause on this solving everything

13:36 for them. It definitely follows the line of thinking with this coaching staff, which is

13:42 really emphasizing the three point shot, getting quick, high quality shots off to solve some of

13:49 those turnover issues rather than just having this point guard who's going to command everything,

13:53 knowing where the spots are on the fourth and B. He can probably stagger into some of those

13:57 second units too with Brown and just targeting him, I think will make reads easier for Brown too.

14:03 There's a lot on paper that makes sense here. It's just how it's going to play out in reality,

14:09 how the health is going to go and how internally they come together, especially in the bad moments.

14:15 I mean, you remember game three and I hope they do too. It was chaotic. The post game,

14:21 where they were in that series, even the day after where everyone's just trying to place blame and

14:27 figure out where things went wrong and they turned it around to their credit in a massive way.

14:31 But, you know, Gabe Vincent went down in the next game. That was a big factor there. The game six,

14:36 obviously it was a miracle. So it was a little fluky how they came back to it was a look,

14:43 but I still think at the end of the day, I don't think that Boston solved everything by any stretch

14:47 right here. I still have the same concerns that you have with them, but like, it's fascinating

14:52 to me that it's just been the heat and the Celtics for three to last four years. And, you know,

14:57 obviously the bucks won a championship in between all of that, but those are the three, like those

15:03 are the three in the Eastern conference for right now. And it just seems like a little bit lurking

15:11 a little bit lurking the Knicks or I mean, I guess they gave the Celtics a tough time last year.

15:16 I would have been a tough East finals too for Boston. Okay. I mean, look, they gave like,

15:20 they played Miami hard. I just, yeah. The Knicks, I don't know. They're definitely a tier below the

15:26 three, the other three, right. That Randall thing kills that. Cause you just know what he's going

15:30 to be in the playoffs. Well, you already noticed he had the best regular season of his career

15:34 two years after having the best regular season of his career. And the thing that always happens is

15:38 after his career best season, he calls it with a disappointing season. So it's like, I can, I I'm a

15:43 little actually worried about Nick's regression. If I was a Knicks fan right now, yeah. Cleveland,

15:47 I'd probably put Cleveland above them. I like Cleveland, Philly. It's impossible to imagine

15:53 how that's going to go. Yeah. I have no idea. I like I I've stopped. I've always been kind of

16:00 bullish on the Sixers. I'm like, yeah, they got to figure it out at some point. It's sort of just

16:04 been my stance this entire time. And now I've just totally given up on them. Just like the

16:08 Clippers, like both of those teams. I'm like, you know what, when you win a championship,

16:11 I'll think about believing in you as a championship contender. All right, let's get to Lillard. Just

16:17 want to give a shout out to our sponsor real quick here. And we're going to talk about when the hell

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16:50 odds are dot com slash Celtics. That's odds are dot com slash Celtics. All right. So I saw you

17:01 tweet earlier, and I think this is pretty much how everyone feels that this Lillard thing is just at

17:06 a standstill and that he probably won't have him in camp. Who knows when he's going to be there?

17:11 He still wants to be there. He's still sending those signals left and right, even though the

17:16 NBA tried to shut it down a little bit with the warning there of him trying to dictate one

17:22 destination only from Portland, Portland. Who knows if they really even want to trade him?

17:27 I think that's probably a mistake on their part. And honestly, I started this whole process

17:31 West saying, just like everybody else, that heat offers terrible. They got to be able to do better

17:37 than that. Portland does. Maybe this doesn't even happen for Miami, but the more and more I think

17:43 about it and the more it seems like the like the NBA at large doesn't seem interested in trading

17:48 for him and he keeps threatening that you don't want me if you're not the heat. That heat offer,

17:55 if the heat get very aggressive here and I know they can only be so aggressive with how much they

18:00 give up here and still have a team. It's it's acceptable. That's probably the word I'd use for

18:07 it. It's OK. It's acceptable. I just think Portland, more than anything else, needs to

18:12 move on from this and take what they can get. Maybe it's as many heat picks as possible,

18:16 even if the heat you don't think in the future are going to be a team that has a downturn.

18:22 Maybe you can figure out what you're doing with hero at some point down the line. If you're them,

18:26 you're rebuilding. It really doesn't matter how many guys you have at a certain position.

18:29 I'm I'm just leaning toward wanting to see this get done, obviously, as I'm sure a lot of people

18:35 in Miami do. I mean, yeah, we just want to see it get done. I want to see it get done because I'm

18:41 sick of talking about hypotheticals like, yeah, that's how it's just so funny. People online

18:47 and on podcasts like us talk about this more than the heat and the Blazers have talked about this

18:51 clearly because they haven't spoken since July. But look, I agree with you. I think there's a

18:55 number of factors here that kind of influenced our thinking on the trade package. The first one

19:01 being is that the closest star trade to this was Kevin Durant getting traded a few months ago. I

19:07 mean, closest in terms of timeline was Kevin Durant a few months ago. And so Kevin Durant

19:11 gets traded. Before that, it was Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell. And these teams get such huge

19:14 halls for these big names, right, for huge names in the NBA. And Damian Lillard is a name a star

19:19 among stars, right? Damian Lillard is a star like Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, like LeBron, like he

19:23 has been in the league and just part one of the many faces of the NBA for the last decade. And so

19:30 you see him get on the trade market finally, right? Again, a guy that we've been thinking about could

19:35 be traded at any moment, any offseason. You see him finally get on the market and demand that trade

19:40 that everybody has been anticipating him to make. And you say, OK, all right, Blazers, they're

19:44 rebuilding. They're going to get a huge hall for him. And then you kind of think about it a little

19:48 bit more. He's not a big wing. He's 33 years old. He's a smallish guard. He doesn't fit with every

19:54 roster just on a position by basis, because we already saw what happens if you if if you pair

19:59 him with another small guard, you don't win at a high level. They tried to do it in Portland with

20:02 CJ McCollum and Anthony Simons, and it just didn't work. So you're like, OK, so if we're already kind

20:06 of committed to a small guard, we can't really do it with with Dame. And then obviously he's going

20:12 to be 33 by the time the season starts. He's making a ton of money, a ton of money that is

20:19 going to be hard to get out of as he gets older. You kind of start going down the list of teams

20:25 that make any sense for them in the looting like Miami. It might be the only team. Right. It's not

20:29 that he only forced his way to Miami and now Miami is the only team. Right. It's that Miami was kind

20:35 of always the only team that made any sense. And now that's probably even more so that Joel Embiid

20:41 and Yanis could potentially get traded in the next 12 months. Like if I'm Brooklyn, there's no way

20:46 I'm trading for Damon. Right. If it means that I have to give up the assets it would take to maybe

20:50 go get Yanis in nine months from now. So it's like I just think it keeps it makes more and more sense.

20:56 So I think that that's one factor. The other factor of this, too, is that. Tyler, he was a

21:00 really good player and his his trade value has been kind of dragged through the mud over this

21:06 offseason and this idea that, OK, maybe Portland will find a third team to flip Tyler here to for

21:10 a first round pick. Let's I'm just going to use Brooklyn again because I just I said them at the

21:13 top of my mind. Let's say you trade Tyler Hero. You flip them to Brooklyn for first. What's that

21:17 first round pick going to be from Brooklyn? Twenty two. Like you would you really, really have the

21:22 twenty second pick over Tyler Hero? Sixth man of the year. So I broke. I just have their own

21:26 picks, which is the problem. OK, but you know what I mean? Like any team trading with Tyler

21:30 Hero, like you're not getting like I mean, you're you're you're probably a close to contending team.

21:35 You're trying to get Tyler Hero is like another piece to try to get to where you're trying to go.

21:38 Yeah, like a team that's going to be picking the lottery isn't necessarily trading for Tyler Hero.

21:42 So you're going to get some late mid first round pick. That's not better than Tyler Hero

21:46 in terms of value in a vacuum. And like, look, if Tyler Hero is three inches taller,

21:49 we're not even having this conversation. He'd be playing small forward and playing for Portland.

21:52 And this trade would have been done two months ago. But he's a good player and I think it's

21:58 worth getting him. And if you can get Tyler Hero again, 24 years old, improving, it literally has

22:04 improved every single season, 20 points per game, the last two seasons, six man of the year, two

22:08 seasons ago, a lot left to explore in his game. Plus three first round picks in the distant future

22:15 when Jimmy Butler is not going to be Jimmy Butler, when Damian Lillard is not going to be Damian

22:18 Lillard. Like I I think those picks could actually be pretty good in twenty twenty eight and twenty

22:22 thirty if I might. If you're my man, this idea that, oh, the Heat are never bad, like those

22:25 picks will never be worth anything. The Heat are never like the lottery, like two years in a row

22:30 after LeBron left, like the Heat aren't somehow magically not allowed to be in the lottery.

22:35 They could be in the lottery. That's where they got BAM and it's where they got Tyler Hero and

22:37 they got Justice Winslow in the lottery as well. So they've picked in the lottery three times in

22:40 the last 10 years. So I just I think I think the offer is OK for an aging point guard making 200

22:48 plus million dollars over the next four years. It's just what it is to bring up the Durant

22:52 comparison again. Looking back on it, it's amazing how it panned out for the Nets there.

22:59 They get many distant sons picks, which as far as distant picks go, you can almost assure those

23:06 are going to be good where most of the time you're uncertain of how it's going to go down the line.

23:10 But they probably won't have those aging stars there anymore. They don't have any picks for the

23:16 foreseeable future first or second round. And they really don't have any young guys coming up either.

23:21 It's just a bunch of veterans on minimum deal. So those are the premium that Miami you could say

23:26 like they have some young guys coming up the pipeline, whether it's premium guys or younger

23:31 guys, all the rest. But, you know, you're comparing it to I don't even know if the Nets get involved,

23:36 as you said. I think they should just because they don't have their first just because they don't

23:40 really have a direction here. They might not even make the playoffs this year with what they have

23:44 right now. I think the Raptors are in a similar boat, but the package is comparable.

23:50 But the thing that I keep coming back to as well is like, did we all agree that the

23:55 Timberwolves overpaid for you, Gobert? Yeah. Did we all agree that Cleveland might have overpaid

24:00 for Donovan Mitchell? Yeah. After the season, Larry Markin had. Did we all agree that the

24:05 Suns probably overpaid even for Kevin Durant? Yes. So you can't have it both ways. Like,

24:10 we can't say like, OK, all these teams overpaid for these stars, but then Portland should get what

24:16 those other teams got for those stars as if the other teams in the league didn't look at like,

24:21 OK, maybe we're overpaying for stars now. Right. Because the whole idea isn't to get Damian

24:25 Lillard. That's not the goal of the trade. The goal is to win a championship. Right. And so if

24:29 you're any team looking to trade for Damian Lillard, you've got to make sure that whatever

24:33 team you have after a little trade could still contend for a championship. And as good as Lillard

24:38 and Jimmy Butler and Bam might be as a trio, you've got to have like seven guys. Yeah. You

24:42 can trust in the playoffs. And if you just give up everything, then I don't know that you have

24:46 that if you're Miami. And so understandably, you'd be like, well, we're just not going to

24:49 trade for him because you could argue also that, OK, I might rather have this heat roster

24:55 than a heat roster with Damian Lillard and none of the supporting role players that are going to

25:00 help us win a championship. Yeah. And you can hold those pieces going forward for maybe Yannis

25:07 becomes available, maybe Embiid becomes available. And that is what worries me from a Celtics

25:13 perspective is maybe the heat pieces get better. Maybe this Lillard trade doesn't go through.

25:19 And then next year you're talking about the heater and on because then you can even offer Bam

25:24 at that point if you want to swap out centers. So that's quietly what I'm thinking about on

25:30 the backdrop. And that's obviously a conversation for later. But just with what Miami has right now,

25:36 you have to think Jovich would go in this deal. Hock is he's improved his trade value a lot

25:40 in that world. I liked his World Cup run. Yeah. And I don't know if he's ready to play a big NBA

25:45 role right now. But again, Portland's on a hurry. Poland would be perfect for him,

25:49 too, because in Miami, it's a little bit tough because they're obviously trying to win right

25:51 now. And I think Jovich needs probably a couple of NBA years of seasoning. But Portland could give

25:56 him that any place a position in need for them. So that's what's tough for me now with Miami,

26:00 because given Butler doesn't play a ton and I think Vincent was just a massive loss,

26:08 he was actually legitimately great for them in a year where Larry was in and out of the lineup.

26:12 It could be a tough regular season for Miami with what they have right now. Again,

26:18 is Jovich ready? Not sure. Hock is seems ready to go relatively for a rookie, but you never know.

26:26 Struess, I don't think was a huge loss. I think that's a guy who you could probably

26:30 replace, especially with Hero coming back, who's underrated stepping back into this lineup,

26:35 I think a little bit now. So I don't know, like this. This could be a tough stretch here without

26:40 Lewitt, especially considering just a year ago when they had all these guys.

26:44 The Heat were hovering on an eight seed and we were doing a show saying this team's done going

26:49 into the playoffs. We were. Yeah, I think I agree with you that the the fun part about trading for

26:57 Damian Lillard again, depending on what it would cost you, is that it would make the regular season

27:00 a lot more enjoyable for me. That's mostly what I'm looking forward to, because it's the most

27:04 immediate thing. It's like if this is the team coming back, man, like this is the same team,

27:09 basically for three years in a row. You take a Gabe Vincent and a Max Struess out. You add a Josh

27:13 Richardson here back into the mix, like whatever, like you get a better year from Duncan Robinson.

27:18 Like it's just it is a it's tough sledding. It's a team that wins by playing good defense and

27:24 boxing out a lot. And that's not necessarily an enjoyable version of basketball. And it's a hard

27:30 way to play for 82 games. It's really, really hard. And like you mentioned, Jimmy Butler played

27:35 like 60 something games for the first time in his Miami Heat career last year. And they needed him

27:41 to to make the playoffs like literally they made the playoffs by one quarter against the Chicago

27:46 Bulls in the playing tournament. That's what made them get into the playoffs. So you also look at.

27:50 Their three point shooting last year was way down. They were like bottom five in the league

27:57 and three points in percentage versus the year before when they were the number one seed.

28:01 They were the number one team in the league in three point percentage. I think they're closer

28:05 in terms of three point percentage where they were two years ago than they were last year,

28:08 where a bunch of guys just had career lows. I think Duncan Robinson, Josh Richardson, Kayla Martin,

28:13 like Tyler Hero, these guys are all good to elite three point shooters. And I think they all have

28:19 bounced back years. Max Drewson gave Vincent weren't good from from three in the regular

28:23 season. And they've kind of been up and down throughout their careers. Like I think Max

28:26 is a good three point shooter. I don't think he's like an elite three point shooter. You know what

28:30 I mean? So and I think Duncan Robinson is a better three point shooter. So it was gone. You get to

28:35 play Duncan Robinson more. So I think their three point shooting goes up. We've seen that help

28:39 offenses obviously score and help teams win games in the regular season. That's a very important

28:44 stat for them. But then so so, yeah, I think there's going to be a reversion back to the mean

28:49 that's going to help the heat in the regular season this year, even if they don't make a

28:52 Damian Lillard change. The other thing that I look at with the heat over the last four years is that

28:57 that year that they had the number one seed was clearly the anomaly. Even the bubble year,

29:01 they only they won't. I think they were one. Yeah, they were the one seed in that crazy

29:07 covid season, which the Heat were uniquely suited to win games in because it's like,

29:11 oh, you have to play a bunch of guys from your G League team and your two way contracts. Well,

29:15 that's kind of who we use anyway, because we're the Miami Heat. Those are all of our dudes.

29:19 So they just like they they were very much in their comfort zone to do that. And they

29:22 won a bunch of games when we had that other wave of covid in December and January. The craziest

29:27 time ever where Joe Johnson's playing for the Celtics and oh, my God, I forgot about that.

29:31 Everyone's everyone's wondering who they can call up to take Kyle. Kyle guy stepped in and scored

29:36 like thirty two points or something for the Heat on New Year's Eve or something. And everyone's

29:41 like, oh, my God, like, how do they find this guy? And then they wave them like two weeks later.

29:45 And you're just like, all right, that's the Kyle guy experience. But yeah, it was so, so crazy.

29:49 But yeah, I just think that the Heat are sort of. Oh, slightly above 500 team in the regular season

29:57 that made made a run in the bubble and they made a run last year. And as the number one seed

30:02 two years ago, you know, we're on the doorstep of the NBA finals after losing before losing the

30:07 game seven against Boston. So this is an OK regular season team that can turn it on the playoffs.

30:12 I don't think you can count them out in any postseason by any stretch, but that doesn't mean

30:16 that the regular season is really hard. And this idea that the Heat figured out that the regular

30:20 season doesn't matter and that they were just saving it for the postseason. They did not want

30:24 to be down to the Chicago Bulls in the second game of the playing tournament facing elimination

30:29 going into the fourth quarter. They did not want to lose all the games that they won in the

30:33 that they lost in the regular season. Excuse me. They would much rather two years ago cruising in

30:38 as the number one seed. Trust me. OK, that's still the goal. It's why they want them in the

30:43 lead. But mostly they want them to win a championship. Do you think the deal gets done?

30:47 And when could that be? I think a deal gets done. I think it happens.

30:50 I think it happens in early October. It's just going to be my guess. I don't know.

30:56 Or maybe never. I have no idea, Bobby. I really don't. I just I'm going to say it happens in early

31:01 October because you asked me and I'm going to give you an answer. But it's interesting that

31:05 the reports lately are like. Oh, yeah, there hasn't been any conversations for months,

31:10 and it's just like every report is still kind of a report, because you got to think like,

31:14 OK, where does that report come from? Some reporter on ESPN asked somebody in Portland,

31:19 hey, when was the last time you talked to the Heat? And they're like the Heat who? I don't know.

31:22 Yeah. And then you're asking Miami, when was the last time you talked to Portland? And you're

31:26 like they won't they won't return our calls. We haven't talked to them since July, you know.

31:30 But the other part of that means that these teams are back in the office.

31:34 They're back in their facilities. Off season vacations are over. And now they're at least

31:39 thinking about stuff. And I do think that just like anything, deadlines matter. It's why trades

31:43 get done in in the first week of February and not the first week of November. Deadlines matter.

31:49 You got to get them done. I think that media day is going to be a mess if you have to have

31:53 Damian Lillard there. If you're Portland, I don't know that that's a motivator for you to get a

31:58 deal done just to avoid like awkwardness with local reporters. But it's not great. And I think

32:03 once he's in the building, you're just like this is this kind of doesn't make any sense for us.

32:06 Like, let's just and there's obviously no deals out there. Let's just go ahead and trade this guy

32:11 for the most that we can get and reengage with the Miami Heat and trade talks and just get the

32:15 best thing we can get. I want to talk a little bit, too, about what this would look like if it

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33:03 All right. So what does this look like when it gets done? Lord, Butler, bam. Obviously,

33:17 an infusion of offense this team has needed for a little bit while here, being a more defensively

33:22 oriented team. I think the guy you probably want to have in that mix, too, probably is Martin,

33:28 the way his postseason went last year. It's a thinner team. You're probably looking for some

33:34 veterans or maybe even small trade additions to pad the depth around this thinner group. But

33:40 these top-heavy, big three, star-laden teams are kind of the ones that have gotten it done

33:47 in the NBA over the last decade or two here. So I understand wanting to go in that direction.

33:51 But you also have two ball handlers and one ball, and that's always a challenge,

33:55 too, here. So what does this look like once Lord arrives? - Obviously, it depends on what you have

34:00 to send out. But I have reported this, and I feel very strongly about this still, that the Heat would

34:06 very much prefer to keep Caleb Martin out of any Damian Lillard trade. They want him, they view him

34:12 as a key piece in any sort of championship contender that they're trying to build. And by the

34:18 way, I don't think Portland is super stoked about trading for acquiring Caleb Martin. I don't think

34:24 that they would draw the line in the sand there. He's 28 years old. He's got a year left on his

34:28 contract, basically, because of the player option. They basically have to pay him. He doesn't make

34:31 sense for their timeline anyway. I don't know that he has a ton of trade value on the market,

34:36 either. So it's like, okay, I don't know that they're going to stall trade talks further

34:41 because of him. So we'll see what happens there. But let's just say it's like hero draft picks,

34:46 and one of the young guys, let's just call it Jovic. Let's just say that that's the deal,

34:50 right? And you can even throw Hakkas in there if you want. I don't know how much of a factor

34:53 he'll play this season as a rookie anyway. But you've got Lillard. I think I like Josh Richardson

35:00 as your starting two guard. He's just like a plug and play kind of contavious-- - He has forgotten

35:05 a little bit of the pickup. I forgot about him. He ended up there. - You got him at the minimum.

35:09 I think those are pickups that really matter. And so it reminds me a lot of when Golden State

35:13 got Otto Porter a couple of years ago, and he ends up playing a real rotation role for them

35:17 in the playoffs. - Celtics fans miss Richardson a little bit, even though White comes back in

35:21 that deal and Richardson's just been on bad teams since. He had a nice little run to start that

35:29 season here. - And he's a career 36% three-point shooter on high volume, which I think is really

35:34 important for Miami. And he could defend multiple positions. So I like him next to Dame in that

35:39 backcourt. Obviously, you need a little bit of a bigger defensive-minded guard to pair with

35:44 Damian Lillard. So I'd go Lillard, Richardson, Jimmy Butler, bam out of bio at the five. Who

35:50 knows who starts at power forward? I think Kevin Love has the advantage there, at least to start

35:56 games at power forward, even if it's just like the first five minutes of each half or six minutes of

36:01 each half. Maybe that's all it is, but I think he still has the inside track to start there.

36:05 And then if you're able to keep Caleb Martin, he's a good player coming off the bench. I think

36:10 Duncan Robinson is in for a bounce back here. They signed Thomas Bryant over the offseason,

36:15 which is, I think, an interesting little low-risk, high-payoff type of move for them.

36:21 They also have Orlando Robinson, who's a little bit more solid defensively,

36:24 to back up bam out of bio at center. - They also brought over Champagny from the Celtics.

36:30 - Yeah. - Trying to pull a guy in who was there

36:32 all last year. - A bunch of interesting names in training camp who could pop, right? And I think

36:36 most of Miami's two-way contracts are very much up for grabs here. So any one of those guys can

36:41 end up popping for Miami this year. And now you have another factor that you've got to consider.

36:44 Heywood Highsmith could be a guy who I think could actually- - He played well in those spot

36:48 playoff minutes. - If he can get that three-point corner,

36:51 the corner three to fall at like a 35% clip, he could end up starting for the Heat at power forward.

36:58 That would not shock me. So they got some names here. You mentioned how that big three model has

37:03 worked. In the playoffs, you really only need six guys when it really comes down to it. You would

37:09 prefer to have seven or eight, but you really only need six. We don't think about the Denver Nuggets

37:15 as some sort of top-heavy team, but they very much are. They are a top-heavy team. They have

37:20 five good starters, right? They have two elite players in Jamal Murray and Nikola Jokic. You've

37:27 got two very good players in Michael Porter Jr. and Aaron Gordon. And then you've got an above

37:32 average to good player in KCP who fits his role perfectly. And then off the bench last year,

37:36 it was Bruce Brown. And then every once in a while, Christian Brown could do something,

37:41 maybe Jeff Green over here in this matchup. But basically, Bruce Brown was the only guy who they

37:45 could rely on from series to series, from playoff game to playoff game. You really only need six.

37:50 And then hopefully, you could find two other guys on a matchup base to make sense for that series.

37:57 And Eric Spolster is as good as that as anybody in the league. So I think if you're able to keep

38:03 six guys who you can trust in every playoff game, that would be enough to find Miami to make sure

38:08 that I'm keeping. And that's why I think they want to keep Caleb Martin so badly.

38:11 - They should. And you mentioned love too. That gives you a little bit of ability to mix bigger

38:16 and smaller liners. Because the Celtics are going to come in bigger to a series this year between,

38:21 I think Robin Porzingis will probably be the way to go to start games. But you have Horford there

38:26 too, who's obviously more of a spot up guy now. It is a challenge for the Heat when you look at

38:31 what the Celtics bring to the table there. But if well, it is in the mix, do you think that puts

38:36 them up there at the top of East teams with the mix that you talked about there?

38:41 - If they're able to get Lillard at what Pat Riley would like to get Lillard for, I will-

38:46 - It's a scary thought for Boston.

38:48 - I'll probably make them my finals pick. That's probably where I'll end up.

38:53 - He was amazing last year and I know it's on a bad team and taking all those shots, but

38:57 he got back to that level Lillard was at. I mean, I even, going back to those Brown

39:02 conversations before he got extended, I thought about it just because of how

39:07 great he's been in the playoffs, how awesome he is as a ball handler, controlling things and

39:13 maybe setting the table for this offense, taking pressure off Tatum.

39:16 - He's literally perfect for Miami. I mean, he is a hand and glove fit. They need

39:23 three-point shooting, deep three-point shooting, like a three-point shooting that scares the crap

39:27 out of opponents. Damon Lillard is the closest thing to Steph Curry outside of the Bay Area.

39:31 That's it. Nobody's scarier from 30 feet out than Damon Lillard, again, other than Steph. So

39:38 you get him and I think the pick and roll between him and Bam would click right away.

39:42 They're perfect fits for each other. Bam is like that ball handling center screen setter.

39:48 He might be the best screen center in the NBA. Celtics fans would say he's the dirtiest

39:51 screen setter in the NBA, which, hey, you got this. However you gotta get the job done, you do it, man.

39:57 And so you have him setting screens for Dame and then being able to incorporate the

40:03 dribble handoff stuff that Damon Lillard's never had a real guy. Nurkic, he dabbled with it a little

40:08 bit, but not to the level of Bam. And then on the flip side of that, Lillard being able to create

40:13 space for Bam and Jimmy Butler. And Jimmy Butler, just for the entire regular season, just able to

40:17 stand in the dunker spot and just like cut off of Damon Lillard, Bam had a bio pick and rolls.

40:22 Like that would be a blessing for Jimmy Butler because then he could stay fresh for the

40:26 playoffs where he could do Jimmy Butler. Yeah, they need to take some pressure off him for sure. It's huge.

40:31 This is a great, great guy to do it with. And they're well equipped to handling the defensive

40:37 liability there. They can be, especially the way they've handled Robinson and

40:43 Hero and those types. So it is a great fit. I think the personality fits. He obviously

40:48 really wants to be there, which has been a challenge for this whole process for Portland.

40:52 But I think Celtics fans everywhere. I remember second round, they get through past the Bucs and

40:59 I'm like, all right, that heat anxiety is beginning a little bit and then even to start the series.

41:03 But I'm still blown away by just how much they dominated those first two games in Boston. And

41:08 then of course, the third game still shocking to look back on there. So Celtics need to shake it up.

41:14 They made their big move. I think Porzingis does fit in well against this Miami team, but

41:19 Lillard will be a challenge to handle for Boston's defensive backcourt too. I think you could be

41:24 looking at another East finals between these teams somehow some way and I'm ready for it.

41:29 You mentioned the screening too. That was one of the funnier parts of that series was the anger

41:34 back and forth over BAM and Horford screens. It's the best part about the heat Celtics rivalry is

41:39 the fact that we actually kind of get into the basketball parts of it, right? It's always like

41:44 his screen setting is dirty and now we're like talking about whether or not his feet are set

41:47 and if those elbows are flared or whatever. It's so evenly matched by the end of it going down

41:52 the seven games. Exactly. Really close finish last year. The 20 we're talking about Jalen Brown,

41:57 like what direction he's best dribbling in. Like that's that's actual basketball. Like it's it's

42:02 inflamed by, you know, passion of fan bases and the Boston versus Miami rivalry. That's not just

42:08 that does not just exist in the NBA, right? Like the Dolphins and the Patriots, like it's the same

42:12 fan base that hates each other in all sports. So it's just like but at the end of the day, it's

42:17 it's still like analysis of the basketball game and which team has the advantage where. So I just

42:22 if it's another Eastern Conference finals, I'll be stoked. So last question I got for you here

42:27 before I send you out of here and it's it's a distant one, but it's one that does loom here

42:32 for the heat. Are they going to pay Butler 300 million? If they get Damon Lillard, no doubt

42:42 they'll they'll pay Jimmy Butler at 35. I think that they probably I just don't know what the

42:48 other option is now. The other I would the only thing that's looming for me in terms of the Jimmy

42:54 Butler decision is if they could promise Jimmy that they would be it would be easier with the

42:59 second, you know, that with the CBA and the second apron and all this stuff if they're able to break

43:03 it down math wise with Jimmy. Hey, man, like look, we're going to give you as much money as we can.

43:08 But this is what we have planned for the roster to go like win more championships. I think there's a

43:12 chance that Jimmy would take less in order to facilitate something like that. And again, what

43:15 the new CBA gives them is like hard and fast stuff like, hey, if we give you this, we can't aggregate

43:21 this these players to do this trade that we think we can accomplish a month from now or whatever it

43:26 is right where in the past with the CBA was like, hey, we really don't want to pay this much because

43:30 we just don't want to pay this much. Like now there's like actual rules to prevent teams from

43:34 paying players, which is why, by the way, the owners did this in the first place. But

43:38 that would be the only thing I would say is as Jimmy and Damian Lillard potentially age,

43:45 if there's a chance for them to complement them and sort of revamp the roster around them.

43:52 And if what that means is that they have to pay Jimmy Butler a little bit less,

43:55 I think Jimmy would be open to it is all I would say. What do you think of the Brown deal?

44:00 Good for Jalen Brown, man. Go get your money. That's what it is. It's enjoy it while you can

44:05 put it on the on every resume, every cover letter on the highest paid player in NBA history.

44:10 Do that now, because in a few months you won't be. That's just how this works.

44:15 It's going to be interesting. Won't last long, but was among the guys who can get that kind of

44:20 deal going forward into the future. And of course, we'll see what happens with the load stuff here.

44:25 He's Wes Goldberg. You can check him out on the Locked on Heat podcast. And of course,

44:30 at WC Goldberg over on X and. I will be back later this week, potentially, but more likely next week,

44:40 I think, with a live garden report again, check out CNS media dot com for some Rob Al talk. I'm

44:48 interested in getting into that question here with the guys soon. And thanks again, Wes. We'll talk

44:52 to you soon. Thanks, Bobby. All right. And for everyone else hanging out, check out.

44:58 Our great longtime sponsor here, AG1, and we'll catch you subscribe Celtics all access the LNS

45:06 media YouTube channels, CNS media dot com and over on X at real Bob Manning. We'll catch you soon.

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When Will the Heat Trade for Damian Lillard? | Garden Report

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