On a recent episode of "The Big 3 NBA Podcast," A. Sherrod Blakely is joined by James L. Edwards III, a senior writer at The Athletic covering the Pistons, to delve into the team's struggles following a historically poor season start. Recorded before their latest game, the episode gains added relevance as the Pistons have now equaled the NBA record with a 28th consecutive loss, having squandered a 21-point lead against the Celtics. The discussion revolves around the factors contributing to this downturn. Is Monty Williams a factor in this? What lies ahead for the franchise? Blakely and Edwards explore these questions and more.
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00:00 (Commentator) Up to the layup! Oh! Blocked by James!
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00:24 Welcome to another edition of the Big 3 NBA Podcast. I'm A. Sharob Blakely, and my guest today is the one and only James Edwards III from The Athletic.
00:36 James, how you doing?
00:37 I'm doing well, man. Can't complain. Had a good holiday. It's not snowing really yet here. It's raining, but it's not snowing yet, so it could be much worse.
00:46 Oh my goodness. It could be so much worse. It could be so much worse. And James covers the Detroit Pistons for The Athletic.
00:52 And before we get into that, because there's a lot to unpack with that, I want to just let our listeners know that this episode of the Big 3 NBA Podcast is brought to you by Indeed.com, HelloFresh, and FanDuel, the exclusive wagering partner of CLNS Media Network.
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01:17 Now, James, my friend, I've been thinking about you a lot lately. I've been thinking about all my brothers in Detroit, and sisters in Detroit, who have any relationship in any way, shape, or form with the Detroit Pistons.
01:32 First of all, how are you holding up through what has been, we've seen, all of us who've covered the NBA, we've covered teams that have had like stretches of losses piling up, but you are in a historical run, unfortunately. How you doing?
01:48 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's been fine. Like, I guess the hardest part now is now that you've gotten like to this far, like, I just feel like I've run out of things to write about, or I've been writing the same thing over and over. That's probably the toughest part.
02:02 But in terms of like the day to day, one thing Detroit has done well, over the few years is getting like good guys in the locker room, guys that understand our job, guys that, as long as you're fair, and you're not like, this guy sucks, like, you know how the decorum that we have to carry ourselves with in this job, as long as you're not like, doing personal attacks, like they're, they understand what's going on, they understand the situation.
02:26 Hell, some of the players feel bad for us too, like they understand that our job's not easy right now either. So it's been fine. I would just say the hardest part is like trying to continue to come up with creative stories to do. But listen, I've covered this team, it's my seventh season, and it's not like they've won in any of those seasons anyway. So it's, it's just a more compact version of what I've been doing for, for several years.
02:51 Yeah, it's, it's, you know, when I when I look at just some of the work you've done, another one of my good friends and colleague of yours, Michael Curtis, some of the work you guys have done, it, it's almost like a 180 of when I covered the team years ago, what I had to do like you guys, it's really hard to find like that silver lining to just really, you know, find the positives when you win so many losses.
03:16 And, you know, when I covered the team, they went to the Eastern Conference Finals or NBA Finals, pretty much every year. And I was, you know, really trying to find what's what's what are they not doing well? What can they get better at? How has that process been figuring out just trying to find, you know, those little nuggets or morsels of positivity, when there's this, it seems like just an avalanche of just obviously bad results?
03:39 Yeah, that's, that's kind of like the, the tug and pull right now for me. It's because, like in previous years, like they weren't expected to be very good. And the focus was on rebuilding and the growth of the young guys. So like most of the season you spent talking about, like the development of certain players, and it's like, that that's because the team didn't have much expectations, right. And then this year, they kind of put it on themselves. Yeah, we want to compete till the end. We want to have a chance for the for the play in at the at the least. And it's like, okay, so now we have to talk about how you're performing as a team.
04:08 And for me, like, I don't, I don't think it's worth when you're in the midst of a losing streak like this. It's kind of, I just don't think it's correct to try to point out any positive, like, it's just this is a losing streak. Like, it's never been seen before. So you have to emphasize that. But like, I guess I've like trickled in, like, Kate has been really, really, really good the last 10 games or so of this losing streak.
04:35 So I've sprinkled in a story about him. I have one about, well, both the Thompson twins and their other brother coming when the Pistons play the Rockets for the first time on Monday. So you can like kind of sprinkle stuff in there. But I think when you're losing like this, something nobody's ever done before, it's kind of hard to, to, I don't even think it's right to try to make an attempt to write anything positive, to be honest with you.
05:00 Right. Do you find yourself looking a little bit closer at the opponent and just maybe what they're doing and maybe storylines related to them? Because I found, you know, that's when I think about just the challenge that you face in trying to really continue to churn out compelling copy. Part of me thinks that maybe you want to kind of take a little peeky peeky over at what the other team is doing and maybe shift a little bit of the attention that way for every now and then.
05:27 Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a one way to go about it. I think my job's a little different because there's likely one of me covering the other team just because we're at the athletic and there's a lot of teams are covered. So it's kind of, I don't want to step on anybody else's toes. But that certainly is a way to look at it. Like that's, that's no question. Sometimes. Yeah. I wish I had that luxury.
05:47 And you touched on this a little bit earlier, but the locker room and, you know, win or lose, we've seen enough teams where there's some level of drama or tension, whether they're winning a lot of games or losing. What's been your overall sense about the players in this locker room and just how they've handled just an unprecedented run of just of lack of success?
06:11 Yeah. And they don't show it when we're around, if there is any type of confrontation, but I would, I'm sure there has been confrontation, right? But it's not anything that is out of the normal. Like, you know, you've covered good teams that have confrontation. There's confrontation within families. Like that's just normal when you're around somebody that much. And then you add in the losing.
06:31 But when I get in the locker room, it's obviously depending on the matchup, like some days are more somber than others, how they lost some days are more somber than others. But there's not a, it hasn't been a unpleasant work environment to where I can't like walk in there. And the guys I have relationships with, like, if I need a quote, they're, they're always willing to help. They're always willing to, to, to do their job.
06:55 And so I could do my job and shoot arounds and stuff. Like, they're the guys I still joke around with, like, it's, they're, it's obviously like they're shell shocked and they're hurt. And they're like, what the heck's going on? And I think they're still trying to wrap their head around it. But there's a level of professionalism as young as this team is, they, they all carry themselves very well. And I appreciate them for that. Because they could make my job even truly hell if they wanted to.
07:20 Like, it could be so much worse. I mean, our good friend, Vinnie Goodwill covered teams that rebelled against the coach, right? It's it could be, it could be a lot worse.
07:30 Yeah, me and Mr. Goodwill, we had many conversations about how to handle that. And I'm not gonna handle that. And sometimes he listened to me sometimes he didn't. But that's another story another day. The one thing I, you know, as I've kind of watched this and then all of us in the NBA ecosystem have kind of watched this from afar. I've been curious about Monty and just how he's doing.
07:52 I mean, this is a guy that for those of us who cover the league, we saw what he did. And you know, in Phoenix, we know, you know, his time in New Orleans, and me, I go all the way back to when he played in New York. He's always been a really likable guy, someone that even though you don't want to necessarily root for coaches and root for players, you kind of found yourself sometimes rooting for Monty, some of the personal tragedies that he's had to deal with and overcome.
08:17 He's been through a lot. And, you know, I think that's probably helped shape his perspective on his losing streak, to some extent. But I'm just curious, how has he been in terms of dealing with with the media and through all this?
08:33 No, he's been good. He's done. He's, he's answered every question thrown his way. Even questions that criticized him. He I think there's like a misconception out there that he just only took this job for the money and doesn't care. But like, I can promise you and tell you as somebody who's around every day, the guy cares. Nobody was asking that question when the Pistons were two and one, right? Like, it's a matter of the situation. But he certainly he's, he's right there.
09:02 Like he's taking all the blame for everything that has gone on. He's saying this is on me. That's on me. This is on me. Like it's, it's, it's been pretty repetitive with that message. And obviously, that's what you want to see. If you're, I would assume as a player from your leader from a guy who's been through the fire before.
09:19 But he certainly yeah, like I still getting to know Monty. I like I like his bluntness. If you have a question he doesn't understand it, I'll ask you to rephrase it. If you don't ask a good question, he'll, he'll give you a short answer or he'll his his way of humor is throwing it right back at you.
09:36 So like I respect his bluntness and I think he's, he's definitely like he's never went through anything like this. He's, I think he feels the weight of being paid all this money and being kind of the one asked to turn this thing around and it's not happening. Like I think he feels all that. And it's, it's, it's, it's been interesting to see, but he's handled himself well.
10:00 Yeah, one of his really close friends who's no longer among the coaching fraternity but still very close to Monty is Doc Rivers and Doc and I've had conversations about Monty prior to the losing streak and, you know, having I think the one thing that's probably helping Monty kind of deal with this is just his support system.
10:22 And I think he's a group of folks who have been there through some of the really toughest tumultuous moments in his life, helping him keep perspective and, and the thing that bothers me, James and then I don't, you know, again this is me from afar, but people act like this dude can't coach people act like this dude has never had any type of success as a head coach in the NBA.
10:46 The spirit that he got with the Pistons, you don't just give that contract out to some dude that you think is cool. You don't give that to your boy, you give that to someone who you think is going to elevate your franchise.
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11:35 Along those lines, James, I'm just curious, how has the front office from what you can tell kind of viewed these struggles.
11:45 You know from from from from their perspective, are you getting a sense of how they've kind of viewed the losing streak and whether Monty, you know, is a guy that they're like, I don't know if this was the right guy or are you getting any kind of vibe at all about how they see Monty any differently now than maybe when they hired him.
12:03 I mean, yeah, I think that certainly like I don't think they've lost trust in them. I don't think that they don't think he's a man for the job. I think they're just as shocked that listen, the team's really young, but they got talented players.
12:14 I don't nobody expects this right and they got kind of it hurt them early on because the few veterans they do I have on the team like we're all hurt at the beginning of the year and Monty Morris still hasn't played the game this year.
12:27 The Pistons are one of the worst turnover teams in the league by a good margin boy on Bogdanovich I don't think that we're even having this conversation if he's starting if he started at the beginning of the year, not to say that they would be good, but I don't think we're having this conversation.
12:42 Joe Harris has been injured and when he has played he hasn't been super productive Alec Burks started really hot being the Alec Burks that we know got hurt and has been one of the least efficient shooter so it's like their plan of like having enough veterans to help lead the young guys backfired on him.
12:59 I do think that like when it pertains to money like I, they gave him the the runway to learn this team himself and make his own conclusions and I think, obviously you want that you want that to happen but I also think he maybe was a took a little while to learn this team.
13:15 Like I think the the tough love with Jaden Ivy maybe lasted a little too long just given their circumstances.
13:23 The all bench lineups haven't worked for them but they continue to use them.
13:28 I think it's certainly like I think there are people in the front office would rather have Jaden Ivy play significantly more than like Killian Hayes, but money likes Killian Hayes or any wanted to give him a shot early so there's certain things like here and there that not, I mean, you, there's people you work with you don't always agree with but I don't think it's anything that like.
13:44 Is uncomfortable for anybody know. Yeah, and when people look at this team they see a lot of youth, and they see a lot of potential and you can understand why Troy Weaver wanted certain players to be part of this this franchise.
14:00 But these type of stretches of play brings up that our word rebuilding and it's like, how do you rebuild with a relatively young team was typically when you rebuild is because you've tried it a certain way, you've mixed in young and not so young players and you've
14:16 got a little bit of a balance there and it's just not working. So you just scrap it all and then you just try to start over, but it seems like there's, there's enough you for this team where I'm not sure if a rebuild is necessarily going to be the way to go with this
14:32 rebuild. What's your take on just the potential of them having another rebuild after this, this current rebuild.
14:39 Yeah, I don't think they need that I think they just need to like usher in more veterans that are impactful players like it's not.
14:46 I think they want the young players in the best position to succeed they need more spacing around Cade, they need to use a SAR, it's kind of like how Bruce Brown was used in Brooklyn just like a short roller playmaker.
14:58 They need to have shooters around Jalen Duran, who's been a great lob threat with Cade.
15:04 So like Jaden Ivey like give him the runway to be him, let him handle the ball and take and take pressure off of Cade so I think the most important thing like if this team could add like one or two veterans who are like NBA rotation players before the deadline I think, again, they'll just go from a regular bad team into like a historically bad team they just need guys who have been there before.
15:25 Who knows what it who knows what it takes to win a game down the stretch who can hit some open shots like that's the biggest thing that is, they've been really kind of let down by their veterans not named Bogdanovich, and he struggled defensively but like I said Monty Morris hasn't played Alex Berks has really really really really struggled and Joe Harris hasn't played so you're asking a bunch of young guys who have never learned to win at this level to try to climb out of a hole that not only have they never seen but most people who play the sport have never seen.
15:54 And as you into your point, James, if one of those three guys has an average season at this point, you're probably not on the 2728 game losing streak.
16:05 Right, most likely. Right. Excellent. One of the one of the and again I wanted us to kind of get into just some of the big stakeholders and obviously we talked about the, you know, guys in the locker room we talked about for an offset coach, and then there's to me, the, the stakeholder in every franchise that often gets overlooked.
16:21 And that's the fan. And you wrote a really good column about just, you know, the fans you just really they deserve better and talk to talk to the folks a little bit about that column and just what was the genesis of what made you feel at that particular moment, that was the right column
16:35 the right.
16:37 Yeah, man, it was, if I'm not mistaken, it was last, what's today Thursday the Wednesday was a week ago today.
16:44 The Pistons were facing the Utah Jazz who are without like five starters slash rotation players. The team had lost 25 straight games and let yet you look around the arena and the places pack places full, and everybody is like this is the night like that's Utah, who when healthy isn't that good of a team, but missing guys like
17:04 and Jordan Clarkson like this is the game, especially for a team that's lost 25 straight and they lost, they lost to that team, and the people were with them the whole time they were loud they were they were cheering them on it's like, I don't think you can't take that for granted because me and you we travel we've seen some of these arenas with great teams.
17:27 They don't get full Miami is not the greatest place for first for basketball.
17:33 You see the Clippers like they still struggle with attendance like we can go down Atlanta like is not a great doesn't usually have great crowds like you know how much the city loves Detroit and how much or how much they love the Pistons and they've been through a lot the last 15 years and I just think that it was kind of unacceptable for that group to lose the way that they did to that Utah Jazz team when you've lost 25 in a row.
17:56 It shouldn't, it shouldn't be the jazz playing like the team that doesn't want to lose to the Pistons, it should be the Pistons playing like they're done with this losing streak and I just thought, looking around the arena here and how loud it was I just, they just kind of like hit me that's like this isn't, they don't deserve this, whatever this is they don't deserve that.
18:12 It just seems that watching I've seen him play three or four times this year, and I'm sorry about that. It's okay.
18:19 It's.
18:21 I've watched this team play three or four times this year and I was saying I'm sorry about that that you watch them.
18:28 Okay, okay.
18:30 I've done it intentionally I've called me a glutton for punishment. I actually did that. Here's the thing that jumps out to me though. They play well for like two or three quarters, and then when it matters most, it's just like they almost feel like, Oh my god I can't believe we're almost going to win this game.
18:47 What are we going to do. And I don't I don't know how they can go about fixing that because they've been of those 20 I mean you you know it's been a night but I gotta believe that there's been at least a handful of games if not more, where they were basically four or five minutes away from coming away with a victim.
19:04 Yeah, or, yeah, or I'll take it a step further like there was a couple games, weeks, a couple weeks ago against the Knicks. I think they lost to the Knicks by six and in the first quarter they turn the ball over eight times right like you can't.
19:19 You have to learn that every possession every stretch like it's not just always the end that cost you a game the other night against Brooklyn. They outscored Brooklyn I think in every quarter I think they might get outscored by like three in the fourth but they lost the game because they got outscored by 13 in the second quarter.
19:35 And it's like it's things like that where it's like one quarter they get blasted and it's, they're not good enough to overcome such a deficit and, but to your point like at the end of games you see them playing, not to lose instead of playing to win, and you see some tentativeness you see just kind of like shell shockness and like, like, what do we do like it's because you know teams that have players that have been in big moments like they know the aggressiveness and you don't play the same way in the final five minutes you played in the previous 35.
20:04 And a lot of teams have guys that have been through those situations and they know that this team doesn't, and it shows whether it's missing open shots, whether it's turning the ball over whether it's being too antsy on defense and you're going for, you're going for pump bakes like I think a lot of what they're going through is just a product of having too many young guys and I think that's the danger of rebuilding I think there has to be a great balance of don't always rely on the youth yes you want them to develop to develop and you want to put them in certain situations.
20:33 But I think it's very important to have a guy out there to have done it before.
20:40 I think that helps helps those young guys see it can get done and it builds confidence when it does get done.
20:46 It's helpful it's all psychological in my opinion. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, when you look at a lot of the great players in the game now, there was that veteran on the team that could be almost like a, their North Star if you will, when they were first getting started in the league.
21:02 When you look at a Kyrie Irving you look at LeBron James you look at Anthony Davis you look here in Boston with Jason Tatum, you can go down the line like the top five top 10 guys, almost every one of them had that one vet that either was got helping kind of point
21:18 him in the right direction on the court or off court, a guy like Luca, as great as he's been in Dallas, Dirk was in his hair early and often, whether he was on the court with him or not.
21:28 And there's so much value in having guys like that and it's painfully obvious when it's not there, which which brings me to to one of my last couple of points, and to me that the person that I worry about more than anyone else in this entire saga is Cade.
21:45 Cade is a special talent. I felt that way before the draft. I felt that way ever since him and I've had conversations with in summer league where we've talked about that, and just becoming a leader.
21:59 This is probably not the way he the blueprint he thought of his leadership and how we have to take center stage.
22:06 But I worry about him in terms of not in terms of talent but just in terms of as you as you pointed out, just the confidence to be a leader and that he's doing the right things and he's taking the right steps to become, you know, a face of the franchise
22:20 of a of a winning situation, and I worried that this is a tremendous blow from a mental standpoint for him than anything else. What's what's your take on on Cade at this point.
22:32 Yeah, I think that's a that's a fair concern I and somebody who has a good relationship with them I think he wanted to go number one, because he wanted those responsibilities he wanted that anxiety that comes with trying to turn a franchise around and being the face and being
22:47 the guy who talks and the guy who takes the blame and takes the takes the accomplishments when they come and this is this is what he wanted I don't think he knew, or anybody could expect that it came in this fashion right like this isn't a normal thing.
23:01 But I do think he's built for it.
23:17 I think he has the right mentality.
23:38 I think like I said the first 10 the last 10 games of the streak he's been really really good the first 10, and he'll be the first to tell you his place part of the reason they lost maybe 10 in a row early on right like you turn the ball over more than anybody in the league.
23:51 So he'll tell you that and he takes responsibilities for that but as of late he's been doing everything he can.
23:57 And I think both both on the floor and vocally he's he's a guy that guys really do rally around and a guy that people listen to when he does talk so I don't think it'll break his spirit.
24:08 I think he understands that, like, the situation isn't ideal of course but like with a few tweaks here and there like this isn't who they this isn't going to be who they are forever like there are going to be changes of course like you lose this much they're going to be changes and it's just a matter of making sure they get them right but I don't think he believes this is like what they are and who he is and who they are.
24:26 For forever. He's told me many times it's going to get, it's going to get better one day. Yeah, and I agree with him he again I just think that there's certain players. I think, having gone through something like this which is absolutely wilt, and I don't think he's that type.
24:45 And again you know his background as well as anybody. I don't think he's, I think, well, he's built better than most to go through something like this and actually come out on the other side, better than he was before.
24:57 Agreed. So, I'm excited to see what's what's how Kate is going to, you know, navigate going forward because again he's a special talent and yes they're in an absolutely horrendous stretch of play to say the least, but I do think I do think that he's going to figure
25:14 out how to elevate this franchise when all said and done. Now my last question to you, James, put into the James Edwards the third doctor cap if you will, because I need you to come up with what's the one remedy or one change or one tweak that the Detroit Pistons can make that will get them on the right track to success.
25:39 What's the one thing that they can do that can just move them in the right direction from obviously the, you know, where they are right now.
25:46 I think they just need to improve the bench. I think they just need like like I said one or two more NBA proven players who can come in defend on the perimeter and shoot threes they need more three and D wings.
25:57 They're really lacking there right now. A star Thompson who I think some have a bright future is really good defensively but he struggles on offense boy on by garbage is amazing offensively struggles defensively.
26:08 They had high hopes for Isaiah livers and he's really struggled since coming back from his ankle injury. Same with Alec Burke sees just struggled and he's, if he's not giving you much on offense there's not a lot there on defense so they just, I just think like if they even bolster the bench with one or two guys who have been there before who have done it who can play two way.
26:24 Like, again, they'll turn into a regular bad team I think and you look at the starters the last few games like the starters have been pluses, it's it's the bench and money going to the all bench units at times where they just really lose the game, and I don't know if that's maybe him like hey look, we need some bench players, we need some we need a few more, but even if it's not it's it's very evident to everybody that they're just not deep enough right now to to withstand expecting that much from one case.
26:53 From one Kade who just came back after a year off due to injury guys like IV and Darren who Darren has been in and out of the lineup with injury like that's just a lot to put on young guys I think they just need a little bit, a little bit of veterans who still got juice left to to help get them out of this.
27:10 They definitely have lots of room for improvement for sure. I cannot say the same for you Mr Edwards because you are already a proven stud in the business.
27:21 I'm trying to be like you man. Nah, raise the bar my friend raise the bar. James Edwards the third comes to Detroit business for the athletic. Check out all his content on the athletic again, lots of good stuff.
27:34 He's done a hell of a job covering this team for six seven years now. Yes, my seventh season Yep, right. Does a great job covering the Pistons and again, one last shout out to our big three NBA podcast sponsors indeed.com Hello fresh and fan duels exclusive
27:52 partner of ceiling as media network where new customers can get $150 in bonus bets with any winning $5 money bet.
28:13 Thank you so much for your time my friend. Glad to have you on the show. I really appreciate you having me man. Happy holidays, Happy New Year and tell Gary and Quaniee like they both miss when I show up like, not even just one of them they're both like I got to take this one off.
28:26 It could be intimidation, they might be intimidated. All right, I'll see him soon. That's the card I'm gonna play. I'm gonna play the intimidation card. There we go. I'll see him soon.
28:34 All right, guys. Good talk to you, my friend. You too. Thank you.