NBA Hall of Fame point guard John Stockton joins Talking Zags to share his perspective on the state of the Bulldogs, the current college basketball landscape and overcoming his own self doubts on the path to the NBA
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Talking Zags, episode 16, myself,
00:09 one of your co-hosts, Dan Dickow, alongside Adam Morrison.
00:12 Today's special guest, I don't think he necessarily
00:15 needs his name announced if you're watching this episode,
00:18 the godfather of Gonzaga basketball, John Stockton.
00:21 John, thanks for joining.
00:22 - My pleasure, thanks for having me.
00:24 - Yeah, well we've had a number of different guys
00:26 throughout the last couple months
00:27 where Mo and I just talk most recent games,
00:31 the program in general, and basketball.
00:33 So this should be fun.
00:34 So Mo, first off, you saw the interesting
00:39 Kennel Club atmosphere of throwing stuff
00:42 on the floor of St. Mary's.
00:44 I was on the other side, so it was going over the top of me.
00:47 What did you see from your vantage point?
00:49 - Well, obviously there were some questionable calls
00:53 late in the game, but we had opportunities to win
00:56 besides reffing, I think blaming reffing
00:58 is always a loser's mentality.
01:00 But that was pretty embarrassing, to be honest.
01:03 We've never had that situation happen.
01:04 We don't serve alcohol in the building,
01:06 so that's never kind of an excuse, per se.
01:11 And so I wouldn't be surprised if some of those students
01:14 get suspended or expelled.
01:16 I know they're gonna get removed from coming to a game,
01:18 but I wonder if it's gonna affect their academic standing
01:22 at the university as well.
01:23 And I mean, kids these days should know this.
01:26 I tell my kids all the time, there's cameras everywhere.
01:29 There's no way of hiding anything.
01:32 So good luck to 'em.
01:34 - Yeah, well, the mini fireball bottles
01:38 were flying over the top of me.
01:40 There was one, I don't know if you call her a security guard
01:43 or something, she got hit in the face
01:45 and she had to get off the court pretty quickly.
01:48 John, you were a player when the Kennel Club first started.
01:52 How was, what are your memories,
01:55 recollections of the Kennel Club getting started?
01:57 - Well, it was started,
01:59 but it doesn't resemble anything you see today.
02:01 And in fact, the first thing I thought of
02:02 when I watched that the other night
02:04 was the Santa Clara game
02:05 where the student body got technical fouls.
02:09 And actually Gonzaga won, it was a tough game.
02:11 I don't remember who was playing at the time,
02:12 but won the game because of it.
02:14 So that was going through my mind and saying,
02:17 well, why were no technicals called?
02:19 But anyway, back to our time,
02:21 the Kennel Club was quite a bit tame,
02:23 much more tame than it is now.
02:25 And they still came and rooted for us,
02:27 but it wasn't full and they never had to worry
02:29 about the capacity of the bleachers.
02:32 - Yeah, yeah.
02:33 Well, let's keep talking about the St. Mary's game
02:36 'cause it's been a game that's been circled
02:38 on the calendar ever since Gonzaga,
02:39 unfortunately has dropped a couple,
02:41 UW in particular, San Diego State,
02:43 and then the Santa Clara game on the road.
02:45 You watched the game, you said,
02:48 was there a play or two or a coaching adjustment,
02:51 maybe that either Randy Bennett made
02:53 or Coach Few didn't make that kind of stuck out to you?
02:56 - Not so much.
02:57 Listen, we're in tough times right now.
03:01 And I just remember my old coach, Coach Sloan saying,
03:03 I don't know anything else to do,
03:05 but just to get back to work and go work.
03:07 And so that you're kind of in a liberating moment,
03:11 I think, with this team right now.
03:13 They just to get to go back to fundamentals,
03:15 get to go back to doing things right.
03:17 They don't have to worry about,
03:19 how many undefeated seasons we've had
03:21 or whether they were gonna win the league,
03:23 they're probably not going to do that.
03:24 So they just have to worry about going to work every day,
03:27 getting better every day and shooting for that playoff.
03:29 And I think they're in a good position to do so.
03:32 There's a lot to learn yet.
03:33 And I think there's a lot of positives ahead of them.
03:36 - Yeah, I think it's a blessing and a curse
03:38 how good Gonzaga has become because the pressure is immense.
03:43 The scrutiny becomes even more immense
03:45 when you drop a game or two
03:47 that everybody thinks you should win.
03:49 But the times of college basketball now
03:51 where there's so much movement with transfer portal
03:55 and the lack of patience in building chemistry
03:58 has really hurt not just Gonzaga,
04:01 but teams across college basketball.
04:03 I mean, is that something you're saying too, Mo?
04:06 - Yeah, I mean, I think like what John said,
04:09 like this team has an opportunity to kind of right the ship.
04:13 You're not gonna win the West Coast Conference probably,
04:16 but you never know.
04:17 There's always weird things that happen in this league.
04:19 Remember BYU was always chasing our tail
04:21 and then they would lose to Pepperdine
04:22 and finish fourth, right?
04:24 You know, that could happen.
04:26 The other night we blow out,
04:28 we bought LMU.
04:31 LMU only loses by nine twice to St. Mary's.
04:34 And then they blow out Pacific by 48
04:36 and we only win by nine against Pacific.
04:37 You know what I mean?
04:38 So this league's all about match-ups and stuff like that.
04:41 So I think what John said is perfectly fits
04:44 is we have a chance to kind of get the ship right,
04:49 practice harder, and then just make a few more plays.
04:53 If you go in the Washington game,
04:54 there's like three plays you can just think of right away.
04:57 San Diego State's one where I think
04:59 they kind of outplayed us the whole time.
05:01 The 0-16 against Purdue hurt.
05:03 And then in this game, we go,
05:05 we're at the six and a half minute mark,
05:06 we don't score until the two and a half minute mark.
05:08 So we go four minutes stretch late in the game, don't score.
05:11 If we do that, we win the game, right?
05:13 And then our season's completely different
05:15 in that viewpoint.
05:16 Now, is there some glaring things that need to change?
05:21 Yeah, I mean, I think toughness is one of them.
05:23 It's not like we're completely soft,
05:24 but we gotta be mentally tougher down the stretch.
05:28 Shooting, three-point shooting came back to bite us again.
05:32 What'd we go?
05:32 - Yeah.
05:33 - Three for 14.
05:34 - I think two of them were early in the game,
05:36 if I remember right.
05:37 - Exactly, yeah.
05:38 Ben Gregg hit one in the first half
05:39 and then it was kind of, you know,
05:40 then Nolan goes 0 for five.
05:42 He had a great game before, he had 24 career high,
05:44 but you know, that stuff kills you.
05:47 And then, you know, if we look back,
05:50 like that Jefferson kid was fantastic.
05:52 I guarantee next game we're gonna,
05:54 - Yeah.
05:55 - You know, he's gonna have an asterisk by his game
05:57 'cause he goes 16 for 11.
05:59 So if we can eliminate him
06:00 and then kind of take Saxon out of it,
06:03 he has 15 and six, good player,
06:06 but he's averaging like eight or something.
06:09 - Well, I think he got five or six of those
06:11 when EK picked up his fourth foul.
06:14 And Huff, who's kind of has had some struggles
06:17 against great competition.
06:19 They kind of picked on him when he came in
06:21 with four or five minutes left.
06:22 - Yeah.
06:24 - John, when you watch a game,
06:26 'cause you're so in tune with the university,
06:29 both as a player, as a fan, and then as a dad,
06:33 'cause David played there.
06:35 Is there one or two attributes to each season
06:38 that you look at early on and say,
06:40 this is what they rely upon, this is what they lean on,
06:43 this is what they need to get better on?
06:46 - Yeah, I do that every year.
06:47 In fact, I probably don't enjoy games
06:49 like the average person watching them.
06:51 I'm always trying to dissect it a little bit
06:53 and see where would an improvement be if I were doing it,
06:56 not that anybody asks.
06:57 Yeah, for this team, I think one is,
07:00 and Mo mentioned it, was three-point shooting.
07:03 I didn't play in an era of three-point shooting.
07:04 We didn't even have them.
07:05 And so if you're not making outside shots,
07:08 what do you do?
07:09 You go get inside shots.
07:10 Gary Payton made a living off of it.
07:11 I mean, in terms of a pro player that came into the league
07:14 not being able to shoot threes, so what'd he do?
07:17 He scored a gazillion twos until he could make threes.
07:20 And so I think that there should be less focus on making,
07:24 we're clearly not a great three-point shooting team.
07:26 That doesn't mean never shoot 'em,
07:27 but I think they need to come more out of the context
07:30 of the offense.
07:30 We've got to become better passers overall,
07:33 and that makes things happen.
07:35 So if, for example, you're a post team
07:37 and they just double, triple team the post,
07:39 if that guy's a great passer out of the post,
07:41 now you're gonna get wide open threes,
07:43 in rhythm, inside out.
07:45 And I think that's the way this team needs to shoot threes.
07:48 I always feel defensively,
07:50 there's so much more we can do defensively.
07:53 I think there's opportunities.
07:54 Defense creates offense.
07:56 And so I think we need to create more opportunities
07:58 so that we can get out on the open court
08:00 and have opportunities to score
08:02 where we're not relying on the three to win or lose.
08:05 - Yeah.
08:06 You know, that's funny you talk about defense
08:07 create offense.
08:08 Last year, I thought the three quarter court press
08:12 with Anton on the top really bothered Mahaney
08:14 and Marcellonis, and they employed it again,
08:17 but it was more of a soft to take, you know,
08:20 eight to 12 seconds off the shot clock.
08:22 St. Mary's wants to slow it down anyways.
08:25 I didn't think they really trapped
08:26 or really tried to get into scramble mode.
08:27 - Well, St. Mary's was prepared for it though,
08:29 because we killed them.
08:30 Remember we did it to them the second game,
08:33 and then the third game in Vegas,
08:35 and what we were leaving was that 40 foot skip pass to,
08:38 I can't remember the kid's name,
08:39 but he would never shoot it.
08:40 - Bowen, I think last year.
08:41 - So then we could go whoop,
08:42 and then if they threw it to him,
08:44 we were like, go ahead, take it,
08:45 and he wouldn't take it.
08:46 So then when they got it back,
08:47 there was 15 left on the clock.
08:49 So you're not wrong,
08:50 but I think St. Mary's obviously coming to this game
08:52 was prepared for it and understanding that
08:54 if we throw this pass and Marcellonis with Mahaney
08:59 instead of Logan Johnson, great player,
09:01 but I think Marcellonis is a better creator.
09:03 It's easier to go pump fake, get the defense to shift,
09:06 and then boom, you hit the other side, then you go,
09:08 and that's what they were doing.
09:09 So they were prepared for it,
09:11 but I think schematically,
09:14 the only thing I would have tried
09:16 is maybe double teaming Mahaney on the ball screens,
09:20 but if you looked at the switch package,
09:22 it was much better against,
09:24 it was great against LMU, first time we did it all year,
09:26 and it wasn't that bad against St. Mary's.
09:30 He just only, he goes seven for 17,
09:32 and three of his threes were in scramble.
09:35 So it's easy to be critical and be like,
09:36 hey, they could have done the switch or the trap package,
09:41 but if you really break it down,
09:43 I bet you that the switch package was pretty good as well
09:45 'cause he only scored a couple inside.
09:46 - I mean, they switched almost every pick
09:48 and roll that I can remember.
09:49 - Well, we are--
09:50 - They would try to roll them down
09:51 and they did a good job of switching them.
09:52 - Our better teams in the past
09:53 have always been switching teams.
09:55 I think that's the new style of play.
09:58 I think it's just easier to cover actions.
10:00 You don't have to tag from the weak side.
10:02 You don't get beat on baseline cuts and all that stuff.
10:05 And so, and it's an easy sell to your guys,
10:08 like, hey, if you wanna play at the next level,
10:09 you gotta switch, right, for your bigs.
10:12 Like if you look at Domus, BC, Rui,
10:14 all of our bigs that play at the next level can switch.
10:18 So if you go to Graham and Braden and be like,
10:20 hey, if you wanna play at the next level,
10:21 you have to guard a guy for three, four dribbles.
10:24 So I thought it was okay, but maybe next game,
10:27 like I said, last year, the last two,
10:29 we went to that double team package.
10:30 I wouldn't be surprised if we do that.
10:32 - Yeah, John, you and I have talked about this in the past.
10:35 Like, I mean, and Mo and we have too,
10:37 like the NBA is a chess match.
10:39 And not that college isn't,
10:40 but an NBA team and NBA players,
10:43 you have to continuously change your,
10:45 he called it switch package.
10:48 Your pick and roll defense.
10:49 You're gonna force it down sometimes.
10:51 You're gonna hard trap, you're gonna hedge.
10:53 You will switch.
10:55 How difficult do you think it is
10:59 for a college player to really be able to switch on the fly?
11:02 - Well, it's the easiest option, really.
11:05 I mean, it's, if you're really trying to grind down
11:09 and teach a system of getting over screens
11:11 or using, how are you gonna guard the pick and roll,
11:14 the easiest one's switching.
11:15 It doesn't require much intelligence.
11:19 It just, well, just switch.
11:21 It probably does to do it really well.
11:22 But I mean, we had five or six packages
11:24 when I was playing with the Jazz.
11:27 There'd be over, there'd be over the top.
11:29 There'd be over that top with help.
11:30 There'd be big post play in the center field.
11:33 You could go over or under.
11:34 You could go under two.
11:35 I mean, there's, like you said, it's a chess match.
11:38 And what worked in the first quarter,
11:39 it isn't necessarily gonna work in the second quarter
11:41 'cause these guys are really good players.
11:43 So you need to have a lot of ways to do that.
11:46 And I would imagine that's even more difficult now
11:48 with the NLALs and the transfer portals and things like that
11:51 to have people more than these few months
11:53 that they have 'em.
11:54 - That's a good point.
11:55 - To learn as a group how to guard it
11:58 in many, many different ways.
11:59 - 'Cause you had the continuity with the Jazz
12:01 of Coach Sloan for all those years,
12:03 Karl Malone, Eaton, a whole bunch of those guys
12:06 where you could build that continuity that,
12:09 again, everybody wants to win now,
12:11 but when you have the ramp of a professional team,
12:16 you can like, hey, our window's three years from now.
12:18 You don't really have that in college anymore.
12:19 - And in your day, they would've called you a soft
12:22 if you wouldn't go over the screen
12:23 and just guard it by yourself.
12:24 So it's a much different era and you're big, plugged,
12:28 and you had to get over it or whatever.
12:30 And that was it, right?
12:30 - Yeah, and it's too bad, frankly.
12:32 I mean, you played, we were talking on the way in.
12:35 If you're a point guard, I mean, it's a real tester.
12:38 If you can have a guy draped on you
12:41 that can get over a screen over and over again,
12:44 and you've got to deal with him,
12:45 you think you're going over screen
12:46 and you're gonna have space,
12:47 you're only gonna deal with the big man.
12:49 All of a sudden, the guy never left you.
12:51 I mean, you gotta be pretty good at that point
12:53 to be able to deal with it.
12:55 And I don't think the NCAA or anybody in college
12:58 really even tries that anymore.
12:59 When they do, when there's a guy that's special,
13:01 they find out, wow, what was the team, Baylor in the finals.
13:05 That guy got over you.
13:05 - Yeah, Mitchell, he was unbelievable.
13:07 - Yeah, and so what do you do?
13:08 How do you deal with a guy like that?
13:09 It's very difficult.
13:11 - I think the rule changes at the NBA and the college level
13:15 have had something to do with that, though.
13:16 Like, I remember watching you growing up,
13:18 you would have to go against Derek Harper and Doc Rivers,
13:21 and these guys were so strong.
13:22 They basically put their hand on your hip
13:24 and guide you where you wanted to go.
13:27 You touch someone that same way now, it's a foul.
13:29 - That is true.
13:30 You can't guide, I mean, probably the best example,
13:32 Magic Johnson, I mean, he's 6'10".
13:34 And he just, like this, so you have to learn,
13:37 it's part of the experience process.
13:39 You learn how to play with a guy gripping you.
13:41 And that's not happening anymore.
13:43 Anytime they do rules to open up free play,
13:46 I think they limit guys' growth.
13:48 They limit what you're able to learn.
13:49 You never have to learn to play with a guy's hand on you.
13:52 That's limiting your growth.
13:53 And so, that's a bigger comment for another day, I'm sure.
13:56 But you can still get over screens.
13:59 You can't do it by muscling out and creating space, though.
14:04 - Well, let's go back to the past St. Mary's game.
14:07 They got a chance to play 'em again,
14:08 I think in about three weeks to,
14:11 I don't think they're gonna be playing
14:12 for a conference title unless somebody finds a way
14:15 to knock off St. Mary's.
14:16 For both of you guys,
14:19 what do you see maybe the adjustments in game two?
14:22 You touched a little bit about 'em.
14:23 - Yeah, I think obviously you have to look
14:25 and you gotta go, okay, we gotta take away Jefferson,
14:28 who's a fantastic sophomore player.
14:30 He plays 40 minutes, goes seven for 14,
14:31 goes 16 for 11, four assists, only one turnover.
14:34 You gotta limit his numbers.
14:36 He looks like an Anton type of player,
14:38 like can do everything.
14:40 Big body, can guard both positions, can score in bunches.
14:44 And then you gotta eliminate Saxon's.
14:48 He goes 15 and six, right?
14:49 I mean, not that he's a bad player,
14:51 but he's probably like eight or nine point a game guy.
14:54 And then, like I said, maybe the Mahaney thing,
14:56 you switch up your pick and roll package,
15:00 but I didn't think it was terrible.
15:01 So it's just something to think about.
15:03 'Cause remember the first game last year,
15:05 that last eight minutes, Drew kept trying to show
15:08 and he just couldn't do it.
15:10 And he went bonkers and ended up beating us
15:12 then the next two games, we just trapped him every time
15:15 and gave up Dukas' threes and Bowen's threes
15:17 and lived with it and we blew him out of the water.
15:20 So maybe it was something they wanna keep in the back,
15:23 in their back pocket.
15:24 And then also pace though,
15:26 like 64-62 is perfect for St. Mary's.
15:29 They go one for 10 to start the game
15:31 and I look up, we're only up 11 to five.
15:33 That, you know what I'm saying?
15:35 So that's a missed opportunity for us to start the game.
15:38 We have to be a little bit more concise
15:41 on the offensive side.
15:42 But I don't think it was a schematic thing.
15:44 I think some of it, if you just be honest,
15:46 like some of the guys' games,
15:47 I mean, Nolan didn't play great.
15:50 Graham had 12, 12 and 12, but he didn't play great.
15:54 Right? You know what I'm saying?
15:55 And so Braden played four and a half minutes.
15:58 Dusty had a zero, right?
16:00 So some of that is just guys gotta have better games.
16:04 - Yeah. I mean, I think we saw a short bench again.
16:07 I mean, that's something that we've talked about
16:09 a number of times, but it's hard for a young player
16:13 if you get two and a half minutes.
16:14 I know myself, when I was in the NBA,
16:17 if I, in that first two and a half, three minutes I was in,
16:20 if I had a turnover or a missed shot,
16:23 I was probably not going in
16:25 as the first point guard in that second half.
16:27 - Yeah. You feel terrible and it is difficult.
16:29 So I don't know.
16:31 That's Fuey's deal and what he's going to do with the bench
16:35 and stuff like that.
16:36 - So John, with adjustments made for a second game
16:39 against an opponent,
16:40 you've been around obviously tremendous coaches,
16:43 but how much do you think coaches keep things
16:46 in their back pocket for a second matchup?
16:48 - If they do, I'm unaware of it.
16:51 It's, you are who you are.
16:53 I think that, I think the biggest changes that I would,
16:57 would be individual.
16:58 I mean, we have, you get some humility from this.
17:01 So now we're no longer favored.
17:02 We're no longer the big dog on campus, so to speak.
17:06 And so there's humility in that.
17:08 Humility makes you a little hungrier.
17:09 So we're the hungry dog at the bottom of the hill right now.
17:12 And I think that's what we need.
17:13 We need to get a little bit nastier.
17:15 We need to see ourselves as junkyard dogs
17:17 and how do we fight and claw,
17:19 whether it's over screens, whether it's for rebounds,
17:21 whether it's for loose balls,
17:23 just that mentality change is something that every player
17:26 has the ability to change within themselves.
17:28 And I think that's where the biggest change is.
17:31 You can't change a system overnight.
17:33 I don't think you can change them in three weeks.
17:36 You're going to have to kind of find that internal drive
17:39 a little bit and say, look, this is important to us.
17:42 We're going to go get this done
17:43 and back to the junkyard dog.
17:44 You can't have the big guys dominate.
17:46 You can't have guards running around freely.
17:48 And I think that can be done internally.
17:51 - You know, that's funny because I remember the first times
17:54 I played open gym when I got to campus,
17:56 you were still playing and you were the toughest,
17:59 nastiest guy on the court
18:01 and you had the most accomplishments
18:04 and we were college guys.
18:05 And so that's something that I learned from watching you
18:08 and then playing against you in those open gyms.
18:12 You're still a part of the Gonzaga community
18:16 as far as guys work out at the warehouse.
18:18 You'll have open gyms.
18:19 You'll have former guys come back and play.
18:21 Is that something you talk to about with the young guys
18:24 the first time you get to see them?
18:25 Or is it just, they learn it, guys learn it
18:28 by being around other tough individuals,
18:30 kind of like how I watched it from you.
18:32 - Well, thanks.
18:33 It's nice to say.
18:34 It would be nice if I could play at that level
18:37 with that kind of attitude now
18:40 and I wouldn't have to say anything.
18:41 There's times I get a chance to say it.
18:42 I mean, you'll go into, I think young guys in general,
18:45 they sometimes don't even know what working hard is.
18:48 And so they come to open gym
18:50 and they'll play four or five games.
18:51 We literally used to play two, three hours.
18:54 I'd get home and my socks would have fallen down
18:57 into the bottom of my shoe.
18:58 You play so long and they'll play three, four games.
19:02 - We used to play multiple best out of sevens.
19:04 That's how we used to do it.
19:05 And then probably the third set of the best of seven,
19:08 that's when it got sloppy.
19:09 But we used to play multiple best of sevens.
19:12 - And they'll do it, not just the Gonzaga guys,
19:16 but a lot of guys, they'll do it
19:17 if they've lost all four games.
19:18 Could you imagine walking off the court, oh, and four?
19:21 - You'd be pissed.
19:22 - There's no way.
19:22 I'm playing until tomorrow.
19:23 Another one.
19:24 We're doing another one.
19:25 We're doing another one.
19:26 And that's a bit of that junkyard dog thing
19:27 is that's got to come from here.
19:30 - Mo, what's, and I'm going to share my experience
19:34 after I hear yours.
19:35 First time you met John.
19:37 Do you remember it?
19:38 - Uh, no, I don't actually.
19:41 To be honest, I think I was probably in the warehouse.
19:44 Yeah, I was probably in the warehouse sometime.
19:46 And I remember just the first,
19:49 I remember going to a workout one time.
19:51 You had our guards come in and I went to it.
19:54 I think it was going into my junior year.
19:57 And I think you had one of the jazz guys.
19:59 - Oh, Darren Williams.
20:00 - Darren Williams.
20:00 - Yeah.
20:01 - And you talked about, we did a session
20:04 on throwing different types of bounce passes
20:08 to like cutting players.
20:10 And it was like 10 minutes long,
20:11 but I just, something that stuff I never thought about.
20:14 And I was like, oh, it makes sense
20:15 why he's in the hall of fame.
20:17 And you know what I mean?
20:18 But like, you were talking about putting backspin
20:20 on when a guy's trailing,
20:22 but so he can catch it on the same side
20:24 and use the rim as a protector.
20:25 And then you were talking about sidespin.
20:28 Then you were talking about throwing it by a guy's ear.
20:30 You know, just stuff that normally,
20:31 I was taught just hit him, throw it ahead of him.
20:33 You know what I mean?
20:34 Stuff like that.
20:35 So yeah, stuff like that was interesting.
20:38 - So the first time I met you, John, I was a red shirt.
20:41 I just got to Gonzaga.
20:43 And like one of the things that Richie Fromm
20:47 always told me was like,
20:48 John comes back and plays every fall open gym
20:50 before he goes off to training camp.
20:52 So knowing that I was finally going to get a chance
20:55 to play with you and match up,
20:56 like I was super excited going in
20:58 knowing that you were still in town.
21:00 And I remember you're in the gym shooting
21:03 before you get ready and the teams get picked up.
21:06 And I walked up and I introduced myself,
21:08 reached hand out, "Hi, I'm Dan."
21:11 And you go, "Hi, I'm John Stockton."
21:12 I sit there to this day, I'm like shaking my head.
21:16 "No shit, you're John Stockton.
21:17 "You don't have to tell me your name."
21:19 'Cause I had been watching you from the time I was little.
21:23 And so that's kind of my, you know, welcome to Gonzaga.
21:26 - Yeah, he used to play,
21:27 remember you'd play scout team my freshman year.
21:31 So he'd come in and play.
21:33 So it'd be Rabbit, Mal and myself playing like Blake
21:37 and all those guys.
21:38 And we'd always, when John came in,
21:39 we'd always beat him and it was just funny
21:41 'cause you'd show up, you would ride your 10 speed.
21:44 That's when you're still living across the street.
21:46 You never, you don't believe in stretching.
21:48 That's a whole different thing.
21:51 Which was different.
21:52 - No, I remember that.
21:52 - And you would go up and down like three times.
21:54 You'd be like, "All right, I'm ready."
21:55 And then you would, you know, Blake got drafted that year.
21:58 Was obviously a fantastic player.
22:00 And our second team would just blow up.
22:01 The first team was awesome.
22:02 It's like, anytime you, I always tell people,
22:04 like if you're open by this much,
22:06 you're kind of just like, boop, lay it up.
22:07 You know, one of those where a guy's denied,
22:09 doesn't even know the pass gone.
22:11 But yeah, to switch gears a little bit, John,
22:16 we've asked everybody this.
22:17 What are your thoughts on like a big 12, maybe leaving?
22:22 You know all the history, you've been around it.
22:24 We've asked all the guys.
22:26 You understand how the game is different now
22:28 with NIL and money.
22:30 We don't want to get too deep into that
22:31 because it's beaten with a dead horse.
22:35 But like, would you be excited for us
22:37 to leave the WCC or not?
22:39 - Well, framed that way, no.
22:41 I like to go with the gal that brung you.
22:45 So it's, you know, it's,
22:47 I understand what people are saying.
22:51 I understand the money.
22:51 I think just to touch on the NIL and the portal,
22:54 I don't think this is sustainable.
22:55 - Yeah, I don't think so either.
22:57 So maybe it's a matter of time.
22:59 I heard the coach of Utah football,
23:02 who I have great respect for said,
23:03 "Look, this isn't the last change
23:05 we're going to experience.
23:06 My job as a coach is to be ready."
23:08 So I get that, you know,
23:10 there may be a Pac-12 again in another four years.
23:12 - It's true.
23:13 - So, I don't know.
23:14 I do like going with the gal that brung you,
23:17 but you wonder, you wonder if that's not a death NIL too.
23:22 If you become irrelevant,
23:24 if you're not one of the top five,
23:25 but I'm trying to not fall into that trap
23:28 of being scared about every possible thing
23:30 that can happen to us.
23:31 But ultimately they're not asking you or me or Dan.
23:37 - Thankfully they're not asking me.
23:38 I know that.
23:39 Because I do agree with you.
23:40 Like there is appeal and I've warmed up
23:42 to the fact of going to the big 12
23:43 because Adam's made a perfect comment.
23:45 It's like, you don't want to be last to the party
23:47 and you're irrelevant.
23:48 And the WCC has prepared you to be in two title games.
23:52 So you're right there.
23:54 I mean, anybody in the country
23:56 that hasn't won a national title
23:57 would trade Gonzaga's resume over the last 25 years,
24:01 without a doubt.
24:02 So it has worked to a certain extent.
24:04 To piggyback on that, NIL,
24:06 if NIL was around when you were at Gonzaga
24:10 and you had a chance,
24:11 and the Bulldog Tavern wanted to sign you
24:15 for an NIL deal over Jack and Dan's,
24:18 how difficult would that decision have been?
24:20 - It wouldn't have been difficult at all.
24:22 You know, that's beautiful.
24:23 I think if you're making decisions only for money,
24:26 it's a mistake.
24:27 You know, money's part of it.
24:29 We all have to feed our families, ourselves, whatever,
24:31 but I just don't like it.
24:34 And, you know, even if you're a donor,
24:36 what if you're a donor?
24:36 How many times are you going to donate
24:38 for a guy that's going to come for one season?
24:40 - That's what I've always said.
24:41 Like what's a successful season then?
24:43 If you donate money, especially for hoops,
24:45 like obviously for football,
24:47 if you go to the playoff or make a big time
24:50 New Year's Eve Six Bowl,
24:54 that could be viewed as successful.
24:56 Now, if you get bounced out in the lead eight,
24:58 is that a successful season?
24:59 And the guy's just going to go right away to the NBA?
25:02 You know what I mean?
25:02 So that's where I'm always with the NIL stuff.
25:05 And then also, if guys are making, you know,
25:08 250, 350 or whatever, can we criticize them more now?
25:12 'Cause they're kind of like professionals.
25:13 - No, I thought of that professional.
25:15 - Right?
25:16 So that's where I'm always kind of like,
25:17 and I always, you know, I'd like the,
25:19 hey, they're amateurs, let's give them a break
25:21 and let's not be so critical.
25:23 But now if you're coming here and saying,
25:24 hey, I need 350 to even show up, can you criticize?
25:28 Can you put it out on the media?
25:29 Like this guy's making 350 and blah, blah, blah.
25:32 - I think you can.
25:33 And the way I look at it with my broadcast work is
25:36 I've started to be more critical than I have in the past
25:39 because of exactly that.
25:41 Like you're getting paid.
25:42 These guys are making more money per game
25:45 than we as broadcasters make.
25:47 - Well, and they're making more than a lot of guys
25:49 in Europe and whatever.
25:51 G League and professional athletes.
25:52 So yeah, I've always, that's where something,
25:55 I think the word is, when does it shift?
25:57 And then when it does, what's the pushback?
26:00 Because it is fair to be like,
26:01 hey man, you're a professional now.
26:03 And then what's the guarantees?
26:05 Like you said, if you're a donor.
26:07 What's my return on investment?
26:09 And then do we have to hit benchmarks for you to get paid?
26:13 And then can we put something in there?
26:15 Like contractually, like you can't just leave
26:18 after six months if you don't like it.
26:20 That's the hardest part.
26:22 - Well, I've heard horror stories already
26:23 that guys have sat out games
26:25 'cause they haven't got paid at the college level.
26:27 - That's crazy.
26:28 - It is crazy.
26:29 - It's nuts.
26:30 - Well, you can do something too.
26:31 I mean, the NCAA was so rigid beforehand.
26:34 - Yeah, it was too much.
26:35 - You can't even get a meal.
26:36 - Yeah.
26:37 - Or if your mom gets sick, you can't get on a,
26:40 the team can't buy you a bus ride or a plane ride back.
26:43 So they started that, but I think that could be reversed.
26:46 I think you could have NIL type money.
26:48 If they're using Mo on the bus,
26:51 his picture on a billboard to sell tickets,
26:53 that's a whole different ballgame.
26:54 - Yeah.
26:55 - NIL right now is a joke.
26:56 And why not do it anyway?
26:57 Say, listen, if you wanna,
26:59 if we're committing to the culture of,
27:01 we're gonna be here a while,
27:02 we're gonna commit to each other.
27:03 How about something if you graduate?
27:05 So yeah, we'll give you this.
27:07 - That's always the easiest way to do it too.
27:09 You're exactly right.
27:10 If you graduate, yeah, you put it in the pot
27:12 or two years of service or whatever.
27:14 - Whatever you deem is the appropriate at the time.
27:17 - And we have to quantify this.
27:19 We're not saying kids can't get $500
27:21 to go sign autographs.
27:23 You know what I mean?
27:23 'Cause whenever the pushback is like,
27:25 you don't believe they should get anything?
27:26 No, but there needs to be like guidelines here.
27:29 You know what I mean?
27:30 Like it's just, it's bonkers now.
27:32 - Well, I think, and I've said this a number of times,
27:34 I think there should be,
27:36 I've always thought we should have gotten
27:38 as college athletes paid,
27:39 especially with the amount of money that's being made now.
27:41 But there should be a individual kind of tier system
27:45 as well as a team tier system.
27:47 - So as a freshman, you make X.
27:48 Sophomore, you make a little more.
27:50 Junior, you make more.
27:51 Senior, you get more.
27:52 If you're all league or player of the year
27:54 in your conference, you get a bonus.
27:55 If your team gets the NCAA tournament, you get a bonus.
27:58 If you go all the way to the final four,
27:59 everybody's getting a bonus.
28:00 'Cause you look at the units and how they're distributed,
28:04 St. Mary's and Gonzaga have made more money for teams
28:07 in the WCC over the last seven, eight years
28:10 than anybody can imagine.
28:12 And although schools are finally starting to reinvest it,
28:14 like in practice facilities and hiring better coaches,
28:17 and it hasn't trickled down to players.
28:19 Like the NCAA could have figured that out
28:21 in some way, I think.
28:23 - Yeah, I think it's obviously the bigger question
28:27 is it's a football-driven deal.
28:29 We understand that.
28:30 But at some point there has to be,
28:33 like I've heard guys, John, you've probably heard this too,
28:37 like I need 10,000 to come on a visit.
28:39 That's when you're just like,
28:40 and then you're going into a living room
28:44 and trying to get like a 17-year-old to come play for you
28:48 and buy a 17-year.
28:49 That's when it gets to be kind of weird.
28:51 You know what I'm saying?
28:52 - 'Cause at that age it's all based on potential.
28:54 - They're high school athletes
28:55 and now you have to offer them,
28:57 you know, this isn't like club soccer in Europe
29:00 where you can go play at 16 and be really successful.
29:02 Like, you know what I'm saying?
29:03 Like this is a different deal.
29:06 So I don't know, like I'm not totally against NIL,
29:08 but some of this has to level out.
29:10 - Well, where does it end?
29:11 So if you're the top quarterback for Alabama
29:14 and you think you deserve it and you get it, fine.
29:17 You get it.
29:18 Well, what about the girl playing volleyball
29:20 or the boy playing?
29:21 So are we paying all athletes?
29:23 - I know.
29:24 - Or are we only based on the ones that bring in revenue?
29:26 - Bring in revenue.
29:27 - So if you want to get ultimately selfish,
29:29 that one quarterback, let's say he wins the national title,
29:32 he says, wait a minute.
29:33 No, no, no.
29:34 I deserve $10 million.
29:36 The people on the rowing team
29:37 or any of the other teams, they should get nothing.
29:41 That would be arguably fair in a business world.
29:45 And yet, is that really what we want?
29:47 Is that what a college is for?
29:49 I think college is for bringing those other opportunities in
29:51 and for allowing other sports
29:53 and having that part of the interest in the universities.
29:56 But I don't know if anybody's looking at it that way
29:58 and what that ultimately outcomes for those sports.
30:02 Will it just be done?
30:03 - You're seeing it in some of the sports
30:05 dropping the Title IX sports,
30:07 because now if you're a donor,
30:10 going back to your point,
30:11 instead of donating to the university athletic department
30:14 where they can distribute it at all,
30:16 I'm going to donate it to the best quarterback.
30:18 So that doesn't filter down to the golf team,
30:20 to the swimming team,
30:21 all the sports that you mentioned
30:22 that don't bring in a dime,
30:24 but they're Olympic sports, they're great.
30:26 Those kids work just as hard as we did.
30:28 Right? They put in the time.
30:29 - They bring value to the university.
30:30 - Bring value to the university, all those things.
30:33 And now those sports will get slowly withered away,
30:37 but you don't hear anybody talking about that.
30:39 - LMU just cut six sports.
30:41 - That's what I'm saying.
30:42 - Yeah.
30:42 - It's, they just cut in because if you're a donor,
30:46 you'd be like, well, I'll just go get,
30:47 we'll just, I'll give you money
30:49 for the best basketball coach we can get.
30:51 And then maybe a good transfer because we're in LA,
30:53 we can land a kid like that.
30:55 So that's where it,
30:56 the national argument never comes into play.
31:00 They never say that on the national media stuff.
31:02 It's like, you're going to eliminate
31:04 some of these Olympic sports that matter,
31:07 that are, they're money losses,
31:09 but a donor now is just going to go get the best point guard
31:13 instead of here's a $500,000 check
31:16 to the athletic department, spread it out.
31:19 - Yeah.
31:20 - Or facilities.
31:21 - Facilities, exactly.
31:21 - The facilities will suffer in time for sure.
31:24 - 100%.
31:25 - Well, let's go back to the current team a little bit.
31:27 We've obviously talked about the struggles
31:29 against St. Mary's.
31:30 They've got another opportunity on the road
31:32 and at the end of the season, but Kentucky's a huge game.
31:36 And I think it's going to be a fun game, a great atmosphere.
31:39 You're calling the game on radio there.
31:41 I want to hear what your interest level is
31:44 to be at Rupp for the first time.
31:45 And also from you, John,
31:47 how important you think this game may be.
31:50 - Yeah, I think it'll be,
31:51 it's our probably second to last opportunity
31:56 to get a quad one.
31:57 I mean, San Francisco can move into that category,
31:59 but if you can get a road win at Kentucky,
32:02 it'll obviously help us for a tournament resume.
32:05 It's a great chance for our guys to kind of play freely.
32:09 We're going to be probably an underdog in that game.
32:12 And so it's kind of those, like, I used to love road games.
32:16 They're, you know, the us versus them mentality stuff
32:19 is great.
32:20 So yeah, I'm excited for it.
32:24 I think it's just a great chance to kind of just play free
32:27 and see what happens.
32:28 - Yeah.
32:30 - I do wish you were playing.
32:31 I can remember so many games where you,
32:33 it was not us against the whole crowd.
32:35 It was, I mean, I still remember one.
32:37 There's a video of you overseas.
32:39 I think it was in Serbia or something.
32:40 - Yeah, I do remember that.
32:42 - I gotta hear this story.
32:43 - Well, I've just seen the video.
32:44 I mean, there's thousands of people in Smokefield Arena,
32:47 like, you know,
32:48 and everybody's hollering specifically at him
32:50 and he's just giving them bucket after bucket
32:52 and going, "Okay, you want some more?"
32:53 You know, it was quite the exchange.
32:55 It was pretty, but anyway, you thrived on that,
32:57 which probably why you were so special as well.
32:59 So I even forgot where we were talking about.
33:02 Oh, Kentucky.
33:03 All right.
33:04 Same, same.
33:05 There, we're the hungry dog at the bottom.
33:08 What a great opportunity to start that mindset
33:11 that we are going to be the hungriest dog.
33:13 We're gonna take no prisoners at any stage of the game,
33:17 any loose ball, any rebound.
33:18 I'm less worried about the win.
33:21 I don't even know if the win, if a win would be-
33:24 - Puts us in or whatever.
33:25 - Puts us in or out.
33:26 Yeah, I mean, I think that's gotta come
33:28 by finishing at the end of the season anyway.
33:31 But it's a great start.
33:33 We've cut our teeth.
33:34 This university's cut their teeth
33:36 and gotten into this picture by beating teams just like this.
33:39 So I think we just go back to the junkyard dog,
33:42 go get this victory and move on.
33:44 Don't worry about it in terms of the overall big picture.
33:46 - I agree.
33:47 Like, just keep getting better and have that mentality.
33:51 It's funny because everybody gets so wrapped up
33:53 in the analytics, the Ken Palm,
33:55 your offensive, defensive numbers,
33:56 and now your net with your quad one wins.
33:59 You know, as we sit here,
34:00 Gonzaga's better than St. Mary's and Kentucky
34:04 in the Ken Palm.
34:05 And then in the net, St. Mary's is 21,
34:08 Gonzaga's 27, Kentucky's 26.
34:11 But then in the AP poll,
34:13 Kentucky was 10 before they lost to Tennessee last week.
34:16 So I think the eye test gives Kentucky the favor,
34:18 but we match up well, at least numbers wise,
34:23 with Kentucky.
34:24 But I think it's going to be a game where
34:27 it's going to be easier for us to play our style
34:30 against Kentucky than it is against St. Mary's
34:33 because they want to play the same way.
34:35 They want to play fast.
34:35 They want to play up and down.
34:37 And if they have that grit that you're talking about,
34:39 defensively getting stops, they can get out and play fast.
34:42 - Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, you know,
34:44 Nolan was supposed to go there before he decommitted.
34:47 So that's a kind of a sidebar for him.
34:50 And then we kind of ran him out of the gym here in Spokane
34:53 last year.
34:54 So now they're probably waiting in Cal's.
34:56 It's going to be an interesting atmosphere.
34:58 And hopefully we can get a bunch of stops,
35:00 like you said, and play fast.
35:02 It's another team that matches up well with us style wise,
35:04 though, which is good.
35:05 It's not, you know, like a UConn or a Purdue
35:10 that has a, you know, kind of a Goliath inside
35:12 that makes it really difficult matchup.
35:15 So I think we have a definite chance.
35:18 And, but it is one of those where you kind of just,
35:21 John says, let's let it rip and go have fun.
35:23 And see what happens.
35:25 - Gonzaga's non-conference continues to get really fun
35:29 for a competitor.
35:30 And they play anybody, anywhere.
35:32 Who were some of the non-conference opponents
35:34 when you guys were, I know you,
35:36 I think it was Gary Payton in Oregon State
35:38 might've been one of the bigger ones.
35:40 - No, we never, I never played against Gary in college.
35:42 We're quite a bit older than he is.
35:43 We played Whitworth.
35:44 - Okay.
35:45 - Eastern Montana.
35:46 - There you go.
35:47 - Our big one.
35:49 And I do think, I think it was groundbreaking for us.
35:52 I think it was groundbreaking for the program.
35:54 We played the DePaul Blue Demons.
35:56 - Yeah.
35:56 - We played them three years in a row and they were great.
35:58 They were--
35:59 - Mark Guire, is that Terry Cummings?
36:00 - Terry Cummings, Aguirre, Grubbs, Bradshaw, Tyrone Corbin.
36:05 Is a career NBA guy now too.
36:09 So they were great.
36:10 Ray Meyer was their coach.
36:12 And I thought that was a defining moment.
36:13 Certainly a change for me.
36:15 We went into the Rosemont Horizon
36:16 and beat them there, first loss there.
36:19 And we came back, the whole air of our team,
36:23 how the school looked at us, completely changed.
36:27 And so that was really the only taste we had.
36:29 We beat Idaho when they were ranked,
36:30 or we played Idaho, we didn't beat them when they were ranked
36:32 and everything would be jammed packed.
36:34 But this was different.
36:35 People looked at us differently from that point forward.
36:38 And looked at me, frankly,
36:39 I think I got some opportunities myself
36:41 because of that game.
36:43 So, you know, that was a big one.
36:45 - Yeah.
36:47 What about, you know, growing up nowadays,
36:50 the focus is on rankings and the focus is on,
36:53 hey, how can I as quickly get to the NBA
36:56 if that's my end goal,
36:57 which it seems to be for most people.
36:59 That wasn't the case when you were growing up.
37:01 It really wasn't the case when I was growing up,
37:03 although rankings were starting to be prevalent.
37:05 But I always had goals and dreams.
37:08 In your eyes and in your estimation,
37:10 what's the proper context of how to look at
37:12 player development as a kid growing up and setting goals?
37:17 - You're lucky you're out of the AU stuff now, John.
37:19 I'm just telling you, you'd go insane.
37:21 - I was already going insane when I finished it.
37:23 Yeah, I mean, it's to watch the parental involvement
37:26 and watch the money involvement.
37:29 And when these big sponsors come in
37:30 and they won't even play lesser teams
37:33 because you're not a sponsor team too.
37:35 They don't make the kids earn anything.
37:37 They put 15 kids on a team and because they get more money,
37:41 the more underprivileged kids they have on the team.
37:43 And so they could pay more coaches.
37:46 They're not helping the bottom nine of those.
37:48 They're only helping the two or three.
37:50 There's not development.
37:51 They show up on Friday.
37:52 So to your question, I grew up,
37:56 nobody had any expectations for me.
37:58 And that's all the way through college.
37:59 So I really got to learn and develop
38:01 without anybody watching.
38:03 It was a great way to get better
38:06 'cause people aren't telling you,
38:07 "God, he can't shoot.
38:08 "How do you can't do this?"
38:09 You just played.
38:11 And today they don't have that luxury.
38:13 So how do you do it?
38:15 Man, I wish I had that answer.
38:17 I think that you're going to have to do a fair amount
38:19 on your own because even now in college,
38:22 even in high school, kids are jumping ship.
38:25 They're going from this team to the next team.
38:27 So how do you learn those tough lessons
38:29 when the grass is always greener on the other side
38:31 and you can just bump?
38:33 You never have to learn what it was
38:35 that allowed you not to play here.
38:37 Like Kelly Olynyk, he stayed and learned what it was
38:42 that was keeping him from being a star there.
38:44 And he learned it.
38:45 And all of a sudden he's Kelly Olynyk.
38:47 If you just jump ship, you take whatever skill you have
38:50 and they say, "Well, he's a shooter."
38:51 But that's it.
38:52 There's no additional development.
38:54 So I'd say stay where you're at,
38:56 battle through it, learn your lessons where you're at,
38:58 no matter what your team is.
38:59 And you'll be a better player than if you jump ship
39:01 and go play with the so-called elites.
39:04 - What point did you feel like
39:07 you were going to have a legit chance to make the NBA?
39:10 Because I know you were USA Olympic trials
39:13 when you were in college.
39:14 And if I remember right,
39:15 you were one of the final two cuts.
39:18 I think Steve Alford made it over you.
39:19 Is that right?
39:20 Yeah.
39:22 - Well, the first time I thought I had a chance
39:23 to be in the NBA was draft day.
39:25 Literally, and that may be my problem
39:27 and not something anybody else would understand,
39:30 but playing all those things,
39:32 I always felt like I competed fine,
39:33 but I didn't expect anybody else to think
39:35 that I could be an NBA player.
39:37 And then the draft came,
39:38 I got drafted in the first round.
39:40 Wow.
39:41 I got a chance to play in the NBA.
39:43 And even then, when I moved down to Salt Lake,
39:46 I got a furnished apartment,
39:48 cheapest one I could find in town.
39:49 I went to discount food, stocked my cupboards,
39:52 bought one pan, didn't even buy a TV set
39:54 until the Super Bowl.
39:55 I was convinced they would send me home
39:57 as soon as they figured it out.
39:58 So I don't know.
40:00 I don't know if I'm your average NBA draft choice for sure.
40:04 - Yeah.
40:05 At what point in your career did you think you had a chance?
40:08 - I think after my sophomore year,
40:10 I thought that I had some good games against guys
40:13 that were gonna play.
40:15 And we played Oklahoma State,
40:16 they had the Graham brothers.
40:17 Then we played, it was Georgia Tech,
40:20 that Jared Jack and another couple of wings that were good.
40:24 And I could compete with them.
40:26 My biggest thing was always athletically.
40:28 It was like, could I compete?
40:29 You know what I mean?
40:30 You're always like, can I guard these type of guys
40:32 or can I go by these type of guys?
40:34 And when I played them my sophomore year,
40:36 when I started and got to play a bunch,
40:38 that's when I was like, okay, I think I have a shot.
40:41 'Cause I went to a Team USA thing,
40:43 made that team with Kelvin Samson.
40:45 And it was Chris Paul, Rashad McCants, Sean May,
40:48 you know, guys who ended up playing in the NBA.
40:51 I ended up making that team.
40:52 That's going into my sophomore year,
40:54 that timeframe, I was like, I think I have a chance.
40:57 - No, for me, Nike had an All-American camp
41:03 and I was able to go in high school,
41:04 but it was so far out.
41:06 Everybody stayed three or four years back then.
41:08 I was like, oh, I could compete.
41:09 But then I had a struggle for two years
41:11 at University of Washington,
41:12 both playing behind older players,
41:14 which I think is important a lot of times for young players,
41:17 and then injuries.
41:18 And then, you know, Coach Few brought out a lot of the
41:23 things in my game that regressed
41:25 when I was at University of Washington.
41:26 He helped refine those and get them
41:28 to where they needed to be
41:29 and build the confidence back in me to have a chance.
41:33 'Cause I think towards the end of my senior year
41:36 is when I thought, hey, this might happen.
41:39 And I remember talking to you, John,
41:40 before, I think before my junior year,
41:43 when you left to go to training camp with the Jazz.
41:46 And this is the first time we had really had a chance
41:47 to kind of work out together, play pickup.
41:50 And I asked you, hey, give me a scouting report.
41:53 And I remember that scouting report to this day.
41:55 You got, you're good at this, you're good at this,
41:57 you're not good at this, take this out of your game.
41:59 And I took a lot of those things and I worked on it.
42:00 And then, you know, a year or so after that,
42:03 you know, I felt like, I think I do have a chance.
42:06 - When that light bulb switches, how fun is the game?
42:09 Because you were behind Ricky Green in the NBA for a while.
42:13 And then they decided to trade him.
42:15 And then you explode and become like
42:16 14 straight all-star game appearances or whatever it was.
42:20 - Yeah, I was oblivious to all that.
42:23 And I did experience that sensation
42:26 going into my senior year.
42:27 And I never thought it would translate
42:28 to the NBA or anything else.
42:29 But the notion that it's gonna be very difficult
42:34 for anybody to be able to guard me, us, whatever.
42:39 I mean, I think I averaged nine points or 10 points a game
42:41 kind of most of my career.
42:43 And then senior year, something happened.
42:44 Number one, two of our best players got hurt.
42:47 All our scorers and there weren't a lot of other choices.
42:49 And so it kind of forced my hand.
42:51 But the NBA stuff, again, I was happy being a,
42:54 I wouldn't say happy being a backup,
42:56 but I was prepared and tried to do that.
42:59 I had no thoughts that ever an all-star.
43:02 I never thought I'd be a full-time starter.
43:04 But I got that opportunity and lost it back to Ricky.
43:06 So, yeah, back to that lack of expectations
43:09 and just being able to grind away and learn stuff
43:12 was really, really huge for me.
43:14 - Yeah.
43:14 You've seen the program, you've worked with guys closely.
43:19 You've seen it in so many different ways also
43:21 'cause your son David played.
43:22 Take David out of the equation.
43:25 Is there a guy that you liked watching play as a Zag
43:28 maybe more than others? - Or girls.
43:30 Your daughter, you're a guy too.
43:31 - Yeah.
43:32 Well, yeah, one, it was a little bit grudging.
43:34 So I'm gonna pick on Mo here a little bit here.
43:36 It's almost rooted against him.
43:38 You weren't my style.
43:40 You know what I'm saying?
43:41 - That's funny.
43:41 Makes sense. - Right?
43:42 And I'm going, oh, this guy, he doesn't play defense.
43:45 All he does is this.
43:46 And then, I mean, I watched like,
43:49 I think it had to be your sophomore year.
43:50 I watched 10 games in a row where you just willed victory
43:54 and you weren't afraid of any shot and you made shots.
43:57 It wasn't just, anyway, there was something
43:59 that your competitive level was so extreme
44:02 that I had to appreciate you.
44:04 - I appreciate it.
44:05 - It took a while.
44:06 - Yeah.
44:07 - So that was one.
44:08 - Also, I was a mead guy.
44:09 I wasn't in prep.
44:09 - Well, I know.
44:10 Good point.
44:11 You had the long hair.
44:12 (laughing)
44:13 You know.
44:14 - He's just thinking, that was sophomore or something.
44:16 (laughing)
44:16 Soft ass.
44:17 - Who does he think he is?
44:19 But you earned it.
44:21 And yeah, there's been other guys too.
44:23 And you mentioned David.
44:24 And I gotta leave him out,
44:27 but he's one of my favorite players.
44:28 I love the way that he disrupts another team.
44:32 I loved his confidence.
44:34 He was always really good in game enders.
44:38 - He saved us that one year against Santa Clara.
44:42 - In the tournament final, yeah.
44:43 - Oh, yeah, in the first game of the thing.
44:45 If we'd lose that game, we'd have to go to the tournament.
44:47 Remember that?
44:48 He had the can't finish.
44:49 Anyway, sorry.
44:50 - That's right.
44:51 And then you just, along laundry list of guys,
44:53 we saw a bunch of them.
44:55 And Danny, I was always proud of you.
44:57 Matt, going way back, Jeremy Pargo was one
45:02 that I think he just kind of always amazed me
45:05 at how he made it look so easy.
45:07 And yeah, a lot of great players have come through here.
45:09 - Yeah.
45:10 You've coached different levels.
45:13 When you sit back and look at it,
45:17 and I've asked you this before,
45:18 but any interest in if a college or an NBA team
45:23 came and knocked on your door right now and said,
45:25 "Hey, help us.
45:27 We need you."
45:28 - Well, yeah, what would that entail?
45:30 I think that's where the question is.
45:34 I really would have no interest
45:35 in going to those NIL recruiting meetings.
45:38 I'm not really interested ever
45:40 in watching 17 hours of film per week.
45:42 If somebody saw value with the guys sitting up in the stands
45:46 and offering their opinion on what they're seeing
45:48 and where you think you need help
45:49 and possibly opportunities to share that
45:53 with guys that are capable of making those adjustments,
45:56 that would be really kind of exciting and fun.
45:59 But at this stage of the game, I don't know.
46:01 - You did that for Montana State, right?
46:03 For the girls' side?
46:04 You helped them out for a year.
46:06 - I did, yeah.
46:07 They had all their coaches drop off
46:09 over the course of the summer,
46:10 and the coach called me, Trisha Binford,
46:12 and said, "Look, I need a guy.
46:13 You're the only guy I know that knows my team
46:15 'cause my daughter's been playing there."
46:17 I said, "But my daughter's playing there.
46:18 That's not..."
46:19 She goes, "We'll deal with that."
46:20 I loved that experience.
46:22 Loved it.
46:23 She's a great coach, and I learned a lot.
46:25 - They have a good program.
46:25 - They do.
46:27 - What's the biggest adjustment you had to make
46:30 from coaching boys to girls?
46:32 And it's not, obviously, the physical differences,
46:35 but I coach girls' basketball.
46:38 I coach boys' as well.
46:40 What's the biggest thing you've noticed?
46:42 'Cause I already got my answer,
46:43 but I just wanna hear yours.
46:46 - Girls are robots, and boys are scattered.
46:49 The hardest thing with girls that I've found
46:51 is they'll do exactly...
46:53 They wanna win.
46:55 They wanna win, and they'll do it
46:56 exactly how you tell 'em to a fault.
46:58 - Exactly, yeah.
46:59 - And sometimes it's like, you can deviate a little bit,
47:01 but they'll...
47:01 - No, you don't need to go to that spot.
47:03 - Exactly.
47:05 - And God bless 'em.
47:06 I mean, it's wonderful.
47:07 - Yeah, it's easier to coach, way easier to coach.
47:09 - It's fun to coach.
47:10 It's fun to watch.
47:11 It's not the boys.
47:13 The boys are running amok.
47:14 They all wanna dunk and run around
47:16 and knock each other down
47:17 and screw up every drill and practice.
47:19 I mean, it's completely different.
47:21 Both have their reasons to enjoy it,
47:23 and both have their reasons
47:24 where you don't enjoy it as much.
47:26 - Yeah, it's interesting.
47:27 Girls want to...
47:30 Winning matters more, I think,
47:32 especially at a younger age.
47:34 You'll have a great player on your team,
47:36 and maybe one game she has 25,
47:38 and the next game she has eight,
47:40 and you don't see the facial...
47:42 They won, they're just happy.
47:43 Boys, this sucks, I'm getting screwed.
47:47 I should be getting 30 shots.
47:48 I'm serious, and I've coached both,
47:50 and it's totally different.
47:53 I think your fingerprints are more involved
47:57 in the girls' game as a coach
47:59 than it is on the boys' side.
48:01 I always felt like I could affect the game
48:03 more as a coach.
48:05 I think more on the boys' side,
48:06 if you have more talent, like athletic talent,
48:08 usually it helps.
48:10 On the girls' side, switching defenses
48:13 and offensive schemes, really is more fun.
48:17 - Yeah, for the most part, because of that,
48:20 'cause they'll actually do what you ask.
48:21 - That's what I'm saying.
48:22 - They'll do exactly what you tell them.
48:25 - I think with boys, what I've enjoyed
48:27 when I have done that is that you can make
48:29 a minor suggestion to a guy that's already a player,
48:32 and they can take it and run with it.
48:34 And that's been kind of fun as well.
48:36 So, and Dan, you mentioned it,
48:38 but I don't recall what that might have been
48:40 that helped you, but once a guy's got it,
48:43 and I think John Wooden said it once,
48:46 if a guy is a great offensive player,
48:48 but a bad defender, that's a disgrace,
48:50 because they understand leverage.
48:52 They understand angles.
48:53 - So Adam and I are both disgraces, I take it.
48:55 - No, no, no, no.
48:56 I never thought either one of you were poor defenders.
48:59 - We gave it an effort.
49:01 - Yeah.
49:02 - But the--
49:02 - He chuckles.
49:03 - Now you got me, I'll betray the thought,
49:05 but the point of it is something.
49:07 - Yeah.
49:08 - And I don't remember where I was going with it.
49:09 - Sorry, it was the John Wooden,
49:11 good offensive player, not a good defender,
49:12 it's a disgrace.
49:14 - Yeah, but now I'm off the path,
49:15 so maybe it'll come back to me.
49:17 - I screwed that one up, I apologize.
49:18 - It's all right, it was worth it.
49:19 So, you know, season, week, month or so left,
49:24 we've touched on a lot of different things.
49:26 Who needs to be the leader this last five, six weeks?
49:29 - Well, I think there's really only one potential one,
49:31 and that's Anton.
49:33 He's been here the longest.
49:34 I think he's already doing some of it.
49:37 You know, you see him diving on the floor.
49:39 I'm not seeing a lot of other bodies on the floor.
49:41 Why is your senior the only body on the floor?
49:43 But I think when it comes down to it,
49:46 whether it's taking the leadership role
49:48 and scoring more, which always makes us happy
49:51 when he scores and is dominant that way,
49:53 but attitudinally, again, it's more important to you
49:58 in a different way than it is to all the younger guys.
50:00 And I think if he can get that message across,
50:02 that'll help the squad.
50:03 - I think Anton, obviously you coached him in high school
50:09 and he played with Sammy.
50:12 - Yep.
50:13 - Yeah, and so I think he has the chance.
50:16 I don't think he's a vocal kid.
50:18 I think it's gotta come from like an Andrew.
50:21 I think Andrew's the only other one, in my opinion,
50:25 that needs to kind of be a vocal.
50:27 He's experienced.
50:28 He had a deep run last year with Creighton.
50:30 Obviously the name on the back of his jersey
50:32 helps a little bit, as his brother played here.
50:34 Anton is a great candidate,
50:36 but I think he's just a quiet,
50:38 but I think you're talking about diving on the floor,
50:40 so what you're doing on the floor.
50:43 But like vocal, I think it needs to be like an Andrew
50:46 or Ryan.
50:47 - I see credibility in both those,
50:49 'cause there's ways to be a leader
50:51 and I think you can do it in different ways.
50:53 I think Anton is more
50:54 outgoing, kind of play, follow my lead example,
50:59 but I think they're still searching for that vocal leader.
51:02 You coached Anton as he touched on,
51:04 kind of growing up with the AAU stuff.
51:06 How fun is it to see him play five years,
51:09 have as much success as he has,
51:11 and especially, you know, kind of filling a huge void
51:14 with Drew Timmy being gone this year?
51:16 - I mean, first of all, I'm proud of Anton as a young man.
51:19 He's just, he's maintained being a quality young man.
51:22 He hasn't let all this change him.
51:24 - Very true.
51:25 - And I think that's hard.
51:26 It's gotta be harder with NILs
51:28 and the opportunities to leave, et cetera,
51:29 but he's maintained that.
51:32 What I've known about him from the time I was coaching
51:34 was when things get rough, when the game gets close,
51:38 he's always been able to turn it up a notch.
51:40 And I think we've had an opportunity to see that here,
51:43 which has been fun.
51:44 So right now, it's, first of all, proud of him.
51:48 I'm glad he's enjoyed this experience,
51:50 and I think he very much has staying home.
51:53 Family and friends get to watch him every day.
51:55 His buddies get to come and watch him.
51:57 And I'm just praying that he gets the opportunity
52:01 to reach the dreams that he wants to reach.
52:05 And he does so, I think, right now
52:07 by getting this team to the base of the mountain, at least.
52:11 - Yeah, great stuff.
52:13 Anything else you wanna leave with thoughts
52:15 in regards to Gonzaga or life in general?
52:19 You've been a huge role model to a lot of guys
52:21 that have played at Gonzaga.
52:23 - Thank you.
52:24 It's been neat.
52:25 There were people before me as well
52:27 that made me feel great about this Gonzaga University
52:31 that we've all become so proud of.
52:32 And I think that's, you guys are passing it on,
52:36 whether it came from me or other people.
52:37 And keep these guys appreciating the people
52:41 that came before them,
52:42 and it helps you succeed yourself.
52:43 So, no, I have nothing to add.
52:46 - Any last thoughts, Mo?
52:47 - Repaint the lines on the side gyms at the warehouse
52:51 so we can see 'em when we're coaching.
52:53 (laughing)
52:54 That's it.
52:55 (clapping)
52:56 That's all I got for ya.
52:57 - Start a petition, we'll get this rounded up.
53:00 - Just repaint the lines so the kids can't see 'em, John.
53:02 That's all I'm saying.
53:03 - Well, those are historic lines.
53:05 - I know, well, the side,
53:07 they're going, the field house one and two are going sideways.
53:10 - We'll put the Mo's strip on there.
53:11 - Okay, there you go.
53:12 - What color do you want it?
53:13 - Gray's good.
53:14 - All right.
53:15 - Just darken it up a little bit.
53:16 - Awesome, great stuff.
53:17 Well, for Talking Zags, Adam Morrison,
53:20 myself, Dan Dickeye, your host.
53:22 Today's guest, John Stockton.
53:24 (upbeat music)
53:27 (upbeat music)