East Meets West on Climate Change || Acharya Prashant, in conversation (2022)

Acharya Prashant

‍♂️ Want to meet Acharya Prashant? Be a part of the Live Sessions: https://acharyaprashant.org/hi/enquir...   Want to read Acharya Prashant's Books? Get Free Delivery: https://acharyaprashant.org/en/books?...  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~  Video Information: 11.02.2022, Interview Session, Goa  Context: ~ What is Climate Change? ~ How to stop climate change? ~ What is the solution to global warming? ~ How can we control the increasing population? ~How can spirituality solve the problem of global warming? ~What is the most effective way of dealing with climate change? ~ How can population control help in dealing with climate change? ~What is the solution to climate change? ~How spirituality can stop climate change? ~Climate change has no scientific solution?  Music Credits: Milind Date ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Transcript

00:00Well, Acharya Prashant, it is a true honor to be here with you today talking about climate

00:08change and global warming as probably the biggest fundamental challenge facing humanity

00:17and the other creatures of the earth at this moment in time.

00:23I am the Director of the Graduate Programs in Sustainability at Bard College in New York.

00:29I'm an economist, and along with my colleagues, we are heading up an effort to create a worldwide

00:37teach-in on climate injustice scheduled for March 30th, 2022, and then carrying on into

00:452023 and 2024.

00:47We're seeking to really tap into the deep concern that so many educators, teachers, students,

00:56staff members at high schools, at colleges, at universities around the world have about

01:01climate change.

01:02And our belief is that most students now understand basically the fundamental science of climate

01:11change.

01:12They get that we're putting pollution in the atmosphere that's trapping heat, that's causing

01:16the planet to warm up.

01:19But by and large, they're just in despair about this and as a consequence are ignoring

01:24it because there's nothing they feel like they can do.

01:28And so they just live their lives kind of pretending that it's not happening.

01:33And the idea of the teach-in is that with these thousands, tens of thousands, millions

01:39of educators around the world who care about climate change are concerned about it, that

01:43we can help move these students from a sense of despair to a real sense of possibility

01:49and agency.

01:51The fact is, this is an incredibly exciting and decisive moment to be a human on this

01:57planet because more than any other generation before ours and before young people's generation,

02:04they have the ability to profoundly change the future.

02:07The work that they can do in the next year, five years, 10 years, 15 years, will have

02:14an impact not only on their own lives and the lives of their children, but in fact for

02:19every human being who's going to walk the face of the planet from now until the end

02:23of time and for millions of species.

02:26So that's our mission and we're eager again to get thousands, tens of thousands of schools

02:36around the world globally involved.

02:40We have translated our website into Hindi and have got resources to support teachers.

02:46But the basic idea is a bottom-up conversation tapping into existing concerns, existing knowledge,

02:52and helping communities move towards solutions.

02:55So I'm very eager to get your take on how this might work and kind of what the basic

03:02issues are and what the basic obstacles are.

03:05I'm very glad to be speaking to you, Dr. Iban, and I'm really happy that someone like you

03:16who has put in so much of interest and effort in this most important area facing all of

03:23us, the entire humankind, and obviously the young population, is here to talk to.

03:31And yes, as you said, it's a very critical juncture for this generation and rather for

03:45the history of mankind in general.

03:50We might use this crisis to bring about a rather fundamental shift in our consciousness,

04:01in the way we live, we approach life, we approach each other, we approach natural resources.

04:07Or we could just squander this opportunity and the worst-case scenario is we might just

04:17move towards our own obliteration.

04:20But yes, as you put so much emphasis on hope, obviously we have to understand that our basic

04:28nature, our fundamental nature is of wisdom and understanding, and that's what we must

04:35stand by and that's where we stand.

04:43You see, I'll straight away introduce you to my position on this.

04:57See, it's a man-made thing, right?

04:59When we talk of climate change, the word anthropogenic is the most important.

05:07It's a basic thing, but I am reiterating because that's the thing we give the least

05:14attention to.

05:15We are treating climate change as if it is something outside of us, as if some asteroid

05:26from outer space came over and delivered all the gases and trapped all the heat in our

05:32atmosphere.

05:36I want all of us to pay attention to the fact that we have done it.

05:43It is our action and every action is representative of the state of the actor.

05:50We are in a particular state internally and therefore we are doing what we are doing externally.

05:56Now, our internal state has brought about this external action, this external state

06:04and we are not addressing the root cause, we are not addressing the way we are and the

06:10way we have been probably all throughout our history.

06:14We do not want to address that because probably that's too painful and that would cause

06:18too tectonic a shift in our entire life system.

06:26So, we want to treat it as one of the problems that face us.

06:31That's a very fragmented approach.

06:36Hence, the solutions that we are thinking of are also pretty external in nature.

06:42So, we want to move to greener technologies, we want to have carbon sequestering mechanisms,

06:50we want countries to pledge for reforestation, we want auto manufacturers to come up with

06:59newer technologies and such things.

07:03And countries quibble with each other, who should bear the brunt and then issues of climate

07:08and then issues of climate justice and such things crop up.

07:14The thing is, I want us to inquire into it.

07:18Are we even understanding where the whole thing is coming from really?

07:22And if we do not understand that, is it not a fundamental conclusion that we will never

07:30be able to solve this problem and all the actions that we are trying to have as remedial actions,

07:38would just be consolations.

07:42We would be entertaining ourselves and we would be rather gratifying ourselves that

07:49we are doing something meaningful and fruitful and nothing would come out of it.

07:55And I am not just hypothesizing in a vacuum.

07:59You see, we started taking this thing a bit seriously in 1990, that's the watershed year.

08:07And we are more than three decades from there now.

08:12And not only have we failed to reduce or neutralize carbon, the fact is today we are

08:21releasing 20 to 40 percent more carbon than we used to do three decades back.

08:29And that's with all our climate action.

08:32And there is really no hope that we are going to achieve carbon neutrality any soon.

08:40My country, India, for example, even as a matter of pledge has quoted 2070.

08:49Now that to me is just too far off.

08:54And this kind of action is just too insufficient.

08:56So, we are doing it.

09:03We are doing it.

09:04And there are two things about us that are causing it.

09:08They are so fundamental that we don't even talk about them.

09:11Those two things are the numbers that we are and the numbers that are represented by our

09:21per capita consumption.

09:23And even these two are fundamentally one.

09:27The inbuilt human tendency to take consumption as an indicator of the fulfillment or success

09:39of one's life.

09:41That's the reason we multiply.

09:44And that's the reason we want to consume more and more.

09:47Consume more and more.

09:49And climate change is hardly anything but a function of our numbers on this planet,

09:56our population, and the per capita consumption by each person of our species.

10:03Unfortunately, irrespective of the variations in culture, thought, religion, ethnicity,

10:11all that we have across the world, about one thing, we all are fully in agreement.

10:21And that is that we all need to have a good time by consuming more and more.

10:28Be it the Indian, the Chinese, the American, the African, anybody, we all want to have

10:33a happy life.

10:34And about a happy life, the thing is consumption.

10:38Consume more and let there be more people who can consume more.

10:43So the slogan really is more to consume more.

10:47And nobody seems to want to address that because that is just too explosive an issue probably,

10:52especially in a democratic setup.

10:55The fundamental thing is we are just too many.

10:58And if we remain as many as we are, then, I don't want to sound nihilist or something,

11:06but I don't really see hope unless we address that one thing.

11:10Equally, if we can address that one thing, especially to youngsters,

11:15then obviously there is a lot of hope and great possibility.

11:18And that possibility will then not relate only to climate change, but to everything

11:22that we do.

11:23As human beings, we'll be able to lead richer, deeper, more meaningful lives, more loving

11:28lives, lives of compassion, lives of less strife, and lives that have a certain fulfillment.

11:37So that's my simple position in a nutshell.

11:40Obviously, we'll be going into the nuances of everything.

11:47But I thought it would be better to just put everything on the table right away.

11:54That's such a clear statement of the challenge that we're in.

11:57I mean, fundamentally, there's 8.5 billion of us, soon to be 9, soon to be 10.

12:03And half the folks on the planet are barely getting by and living on a few dollars a day.

12:08And everybody is aspiring to more.

12:12And this has led us to already be fighting over water and topsoil and fish and forests

12:18and biodiversity.

12:19And it's the fundamental reason the planet is heating up.

12:23I would maybe differ with you a bit because I think that, well, I think that in the long

12:30run, humans need to figure out how to come into right relationship with themselves and

12:37with the planet in terms of this quest for more.

12:44I think that with the climate issue in particular, there is a window in which technology can

12:49buy us time.

12:51And so I believe there is good news on the endless numbers of people on the planet.

13:01Population growth rates are slowing down, finally.

13:06China, I believe, this year, for the first time, has tipped into a negative growth for

13:13population.

13:14So I'm hopeful that humanity can, we can see our way through, you know, and we can stop

13:20at 10 billion and then slowly have the population decline, create more space for people, create

13:27more space for creatures.

13:29But I feel like we're at this moment, this critical juncture where we have to get this

13:33right.

13:35Technology can buy us time.

13:36But I agree, fundamentally, it's how do humans heal themselves?

13:41And really develop a healthy relationship with each other and with the planet.

13:46Dr. Iban, I, too, want to be an optimist on that count.

13:52In fact, because I want us to be there in the medium run, at least, and I want us to

14:01not only exist, but exist in a healthy way, in a fulfilling way.

14:07Therefore, I want to be realistic about the threats that face us.

14:13You see, yes, that's very true that as economies prosper, then birth rates go down and at some

14:24point, we achieve population stability.

14:28We achieve population stability.

14:30But then again, I want us to inquire into what makes people in a developed place have

14:39fewer kids?

14:40Is it because they become full of empathy and concern?

14:46Is that what is happening in, let's say, Japan or Germany?

14:49And what causes people in a place like, let's say, Bangladesh or parts of India, still in

15:00the north, to have relatively very high fertility rates?

15:07Is it because they are intrinsically violent people compared to the Japanese or the Germans?

15:12No, that's not the thing.

15:14Even when the fertility rates are going down, they are going down because of the desire

15:22to consume life even more deeply.

15:28I do not want to spend child on the kid because I want to rather spend time vacationing and

15:34touring the globe.

15:35Now, my question is, having a child has a great carbon footprint.

15:41And if I do not have a child because I want to consume all kinds of material prosperity

15:47and I want to be a globe-trotter, I want to be flying, let's say, 30 to 40 days per year,

15:55is that going to reduce the carbon footprint compared to the decision of having a child

16:00or is it going to be just equal to that?

16:03So, mere reduction of population in itself will not be sufficient because the reduction

16:10in population itself will be a by-product of prosperity and prosperity itself has a

16:16carbon footprint.

16:17So, please tell me how is just prosperity going to help when prosperity itself means

16:21carbon?

16:23Prosperity means carbon, our emotions mean carbon, everything that we do simply means

16:28carbon because at the center of our existence is a lot of carbon.

16:34It is, indeed.

16:35No, and I agree with you.

16:36I mean, it is essentially the reason that people are having fewer children.

16:43And not only in the wealthiest countries, but as I said, also in China now, is fundamentally

16:51they feel like they can't afford them because of the expectations that life is about consumption

17:00and is about having that car and that apartment and all of those things.

17:07And so, yeah, I'd love to hear how do we then, from your perspective, make that transition

17:14to a better and more healthy relationship with each other and with the planet and de-emphasize

17:23the need to have a closet full of clothes that you never wear or, you know, three cars

17:30and, you know, how do we move in that direction?

17:34First of all, I want to give due credit and acknowledgement to technology.

17:40I'm just not decrying the role of technology.

17:44We need better technologies today.

17:46But I see their role more as that of NLG6.

17:53There is a lot of pain.

17:54There is a lot of current immediate pain.

17:57And therefore, we need better technologies to manage that pain.

18:02Technology cannot really cure this situation, but can give us a temporary relief.

18:10Also, it can give us a longer rope with which to maneuver our way towards a solution.

18:20So, the window that we have, I suppose that's what you said, the window that we have

18:25is broadened by technology.

18:27So, first of all, yes, due credit technology.

18:30Now, I want to put forward the reservations that I have with respect to technology.

18:36Technology shows us a false dawn.

18:41So, if I, for example, get an air conditioner, in India, we have these star ratings on ACs.

18:49And if you have a higher star rating, it means that the power consumption is relatively lower.

18:54Right?

18:55And India is a relatively warm place.

18:59And as people get prosperous, one of the first things that they want in their homes is more

19:04air conditioners.

19:05Initially, people start with having air conditioner in one of the rooms.

19:08And then they want air conditioners in all two rooms, three rooms, and if they have,

19:12five rooms.

19:14So, let's say we have a young one in the family who has been sensitized in the school

19:21or in the college about the enormity of this problem of climate.

19:27So, he raises his hands up and he says, no, nothing doing, we cannot have so many ACs

19:32and it's not good for the climate.

19:36The elder sister comes in and says, look, technology has brought in this new AC with

19:43a five star rating.

19:45And it consumes far lesser power.

19:48Now, that brings us, brings in a false sense of complacency.

19:54We used to have these very antiquated cars that we kind of inherited from the British,

20:02ambassador cars.

20:05And they used to be really great instruments of pollution of all kinds, including noise

20:12pollution.

20:14So, they were phased away.

20:16So, they were phased away.

20:17Now, you'd hardly see any of them on Indian roads.

20:19Now, we have really sleek modern cars.

20:21In fact, we share a lot of them with the Americans, with the Europeans, and we have the same models

20:26running here.

20:26But what has happened?

20:28What has happened is that the numbers have increased so very exponentially that the total

20:36emission count is nowhere close to what we used to have in the 70s or 80s.

20:42So, in spite of better and greener and more efficient technologies on the net, we stand

20:51very poorly compared to where we did even four decades back.

20:55So, from a macro perspective, is betterment in technology really helping or is it enabling

21:02the consumer of the technology to consume more and more with impunity and with the false

21:10assurance that you see I now have a moral license as well?

21:15I'm not a climate offender anymore, because the technology that I'm consuming is so very

21:21green.

21:22No, I have a Tesla now, rather than a Suzuki or a Hyundai.

21:27The thing is, is a Tesla really carbon neutral?

21:32Well, you know, I agree with you.

21:34And I think we're getting back to that fundamental question of kind of too many people consuming

21:38too many things.

21:40But I would say that there is a shift, right?

21:43That, I mean, it's not just green technology, it's low carbon technology.

21:48And again, how do we buy?

21:50How do we extend the window?

21:51How do we buy time?

21:52We have to move to a 100% renewable energy economy globally, right?

22:01And stop burning fossil fuels.

22:03That's one thing we have to do.

22:04And the other thing we have to do is figure out how to develop regenerative agriculture

22:09techniques that trap carbon in the soil, and that also raise the income and livelihoods

22:14of farmers, small farmers in particular.

22:17So those two technology changes, a shift to 100% renewable energy, and that means battery

22:24powered everything, and regenerative agriculture that pulls carbon out of the atmosphere and

22:31increases the well-being of farmers, those are the two things that buy us the time.

22:36Now, it is true that there's so much greenwashing, though, and what we have to keep our eye on

22:44is, OK, I have all these new technologies, but is my carbon footprint going up or down?

22:49That's, you know, as an individual, as a nation, as a company, that's the measure.

22:55And we can't be distracted by these shiny new toys that claim to be green or whatever

23:00when they really are just enabling more consumption, more pollution.

23:06So I think we can make progress there.

23:11But then again, I agree with you that ultimately the problem lies in us understanding our relationship

23:21with each other and with the Earth.

23:25And how do we get there?

23:26Because that is the hard, how do we get 8 or 9 billion people to have that kind of a

23:33consciousness shift?

23:34And I think the opportunity, as you say, is now, I mean, because we are in crisis with

23:40the Earth.

23:41I mean, I think we have to begin with our schools.

23:45There has to be a basic self-inquiry process with the kids.

23:54I don't know whether it sounds outlandish, as I say it.

23:57Even if it does, let's think about it.

24:02Why not ask the kids, why are we born?

24:04Why do we exist at all?

24:06And we don't want to come from a religion or a scripture or a particular ideology.

24:12Let's have a freewheeling discussion on this thing.

24:15Why do we exist at all?

24:16What's the purpose?

24:18The thing is, once we are sensitized to this question and it becomes something important

24:25in the mind, then the purpose of life is no more mere consumption.

24:32And when you do not have a great purpose, a lively and a lovable purpose to live by,

24:42then the only thing one lives for is just consumption.

24:47And unfortunately, it seems that a huge majority of the people across the world are living

24:55very purposelessly and hence they live just to consume.

24:59And that's the reason why we measure the progresses of countries through their GDPs.

25:07That's why everything that we want to talk of has to be talked in numbers and particularly

25:14numbers denoting money.

25:17I'm again not a money hater or something.

25:22I'm rather pro-life and pro-purpose.

25:26How will you stop a person from just trying out the next thing in the market if he has

25:34nothing else in his life?

25:36And how will you stop a company, let's say a consumer goods company from producing the

25:44next attractive and alluring thing if the owners and the stakeholders in that company

25:53want nothing but money because that's all that they have in their life?

25:58You see, we talked of reaching carbon neutral stage.

26:06Let's have great technologies.

26:07But I just want to open the question, aren't we trusting ourselves just too much?

26:15And if we look at the track record of our species, do we really deserve to be trusted

26:21so much?

26:22I mean, right now, one particular element, carbon is the problem.

26:26How do you know and how are you so sure that in the process of dealing with carbon, we

26:32will not make nitrogen the next big problem?

26:34It already is coming up, right?

26:37Nitrogen is an issue, just that this issue will probably become large enough and frightening

26:42enough three decades later.

26:44Sulphur is an issue.

26:46And all kinds of heavy metals are an issue.

26:48But we are not talking of heavy metals so much today.

26:51We are not talking of sulphur so much today.

26:53We are not talking of lead and arsenic so much today.

26:55We are not talking of radioactive stuff so much today.

26:59In mitigating carbon, I'm afraid we are going to prop up some other problem because

27:06we as a species, I'm saying with all humility, are not wise enough.

27:14Though we think we are just too smart.

27:16So we try this, we try that, and then we, you know, that's a representative of the

27:24oldest civilization speaking to the newest one.

27:29Well, please help us.

27:30Help me understand how we become wiser because I mean, I do agree with you.

27:34I think the idea of purpose is interesting.

27:38I run an MBA program in sustainability, so it's a business program.

27:42The vision of the business program is how do you build a business that's actually in

27:47business to solve critical social and environmental problems like climate change?

27:52How do you do that, right?

27:54And of course, it has to be financially successful.

27:56It's a business.

27:57It has to make enough money to cover its costs.

28:00But how do you put purpose first and then have financial success and profitability follow?

28:07What's interesting is that this idea of purpose is not just a business idea.

28:11What's interesting is that this idea of purpose-driven business has become very popular in Europe

28:16and the United States, at least, as kind of the way to, the better way to make money,

28:23right?

28:23Because if you can, people want purpose in life, and if a company can provide its employees

28:28and its consumers with a sense of purpose, then it will be more successful.

28:36And then, of course, you get into this question of is it greenwashing, you know, and is it

28:41a smokescreen, or is the company really dedicated to purpose?

28:44And one of my professors, Hunter Lovins, likes to say that hypocrisy is the first step towards

28:50real change.

28:52So that if you at least get people committed to purpose, then you can hold them accountable

28:56and begin to move them along those dimensions.

29:01But, you know, human life has evolved under capitalism, right, to elevate consumption

29:09as the road to status, right?

29:12That, and status is what we're hard, in my opinion, is what we are hardwired for by evolution,

29:18right?

29:19Because, you know, we all seek status in our communities, and the way we get it is through

29:23consumption.

29:24How can we build societies in which people gain self-worth and status without that?

29:29I mean, we can look to indigenous communities, for example, in the United States.

29:35There's a potlatch culture in the northwestern US where people actually gain status by giving

29:40things away.

29:41The more you gave away, the higher the status that you achieved in your community.

29:46Can we make that shift?

29:47No, the thing is, why do we need status at all?

29:53When we said that we need to initiate this discussion among young kids, why don't we

29:59ask them this question?

30:00Why do you need to draw your self-worth or self-esteem from somebody else?

30:06Because as long as we need those things from others, we will need a lot of goods from the

30:12world.

30:13You see, these two things are so, so very interlinked, no?

30:17I want my self-worth to come from the world, and I want objects that supply me happiness

30:24to come from the world.

30:26Must I be so dependent on the world?

30:29It is not a condition of great helplessness.

30:32The world can withdraw its sanction anytime.

30:35The world can withdraw the status it gave to me anytime.

30:38Universities, when they offer degrees, they attach a rider.

30:44You know, even the degrees can be rescinded.

30:49My degrees are not with me forever, so if I attach my identity to my educational qualifications,

30:55I am running a risk and I will be afraid.

30:57Should I really live like this?

31:00Must I really live like this?

31:01You talked of sustainable businesses in the MBA program you referred to, and when it comes

31:07to MBA programs, I have been through a pretty prestigious MBA program, so what really is

31:14the definition of success?

31:16When do I call myself successful?

31:19And if I do not have a rigorous definition of success, then no amount of money will suffice.

31:28When do I say I am really successful?

31:30A related question is, and you would find it interesting doctor, why do businesses fail?

31:38Why do businesses fail?

31:41I have mentored a few businesses, and in my limited experience, I have seen businesses

31:46fail because they fail really to live up to the expectations of their founders.

31:53Businesses don't fail, they just prove too inadequate compared to the ambition of those

32:01who launched them.

32:05So, do I really require to be a superstar to have a successful business?

32:09No, I just need to have modest ambitions and my business will be successful.

32:16Unless the idea is really rotten, you know, I cannot sell coombs to what I will be, let's

32:24say, two decades later to a person like me.

32:27So, unless we have that kind of a mindless idea, businesses are not really going to fail

32:35and achieving profitability or sustainability in business is not going to be such a Herculean

32:41task.

32:43But because we want just too much from life, hence businesses fail, you know, I want to

32:51spend this much, I want to have at least this thick a bottom line, and that's not what I

32:56am getting.

32:57So, I would rather shut shop, this kind of a thing happens.

33:00I had thought I would come up with an IPO in the fourth year, you know, break even in

33:06eight months, and that's not materializing.

33:09And why am I not having that break even thing in eight months flat?

33:13So, if I love really what I do, will I ever let it fail?

33:18That's my question.

33:20So, let me get back to your idea of engaging young people with the idea of purpose, right,

33:25and helping them understand that purpose is not about dying with the most toys, as we

33:30like to say.

33:31You know, that should not be your purpose in life.

33:36And I think that young people are open to that.

33:38I mean, there's something about young people that they are searching for that, and perhaps

33:44that should be the goal of the teaching, right, is to help young people question this sort

33:50of commitment to endless consumption.

33:56How do you, if you, and I see many young people in the United States who, you know, are, you

34:02know, choosing veganism for climate reasons, you know, living plastic-free lives, you know,

34:10trying to explore what it really means to be in kind of a right relationship with themselves

34:16and the Earth.

34:17So, how do we, I mean, but it's a small group, right?

34:24It's 1%, you know.

34:25How do we expand that appeal of that kind of questioning of life to more young people?

34:33Teachings, just as you are approaching them, we'll have to teach, we'll have to teach.

34:40And I suppose any good business today to survive has to first of all generate awareness.

34:50Therefore, it has to be in the business of teaching, right?

34:54Because the right product today would need an aware buyer.

35:04You just cannot sell the right thing to the wrong person.

35:08If I am someone conditioned by generations of consumptions of advertising and misplaced

35:17cultural values, and somebody comes up with a great product or great service,

35:23I'm not going to buy that.

35:26So, if I come up with something that really is good, from an internal perspective,

35:33from an ecological perspective, then I'll have to first of all generate awareness.

35:38And I'll have to be prepared to go that extra mile and put in that much of extra effort.

35:45So, the business of teaching is what this world needs today.

35:50I'm not saying one has to be, in that sense, just a teacher,

35:54but you will have to be a teacher as well.

35:57You want to come up, for example, with a great vegan cafe or a great vegan recipe

36:05or a packaged vegan product, in a place, let's say like North India,

36:12where there's not much sensitivity or awareness regarding veganism,

36:18and where dairy production and consumption is a cultural value.

36:23First of all, you will have to educate the population.

36:26And you'll have to educate the population to a point where they are prepared to accept the product,

36:32even if it turns out a little expensive.

36:34Though typically, it won't be an extra expensive, but even if it is,

36:40education will make it acceptable and affordable to people.

36:45The same thing when it comes to clothes, when it comes to automobiles,

36:50when it comes to even tourism destinations, or when it comes to means of gratification.

37:02That's what we need today.

37:03We cannot have, you please tell me, otherwise I'm curious to know,

37:06how can I have a great business in a market that does not value that business?

37:14How will I get my employees?

37:18How will I get my vendors?

37:19How will I get my customers?

37:21Even the government is not going to support me.

37:24Rather, I would find that the government is subsidizing my competitor,

37:28and that competitor is feasting on all kinds of rotten and polluting technologies.

37:33But because that competitor has a market around him, and in a democracy,

37:38it's the numbers that matter.

37:40So the government seems to be more aligned with him.

37:42How will I survive in the market?

37:44So I have to be an educator.

37:47I know that's going to be tough.

37:48But then as a young person, when we are talking of that segment, as a young person,

37:53I ought to have the stamina for troubles.

37:59Why not?

37:59That's what would probably make life worth living.

38:02Yes, yes.

38:04Well, I think we're in agreement then that fundamentally education is the key,

38:10and that we need people with a different vision of how humans should be living on the planet

38:19to become educators.

38:22And I'll just say that the vision of our teach-in really is just to recognize that

38:29many, many, many teachers, many, many students,

38:33many, many staff members at universities and high schools and secondary schools,

38:38they understand the depth of the climate crisis.

38:40They know that this is existential, right?

38:42They know that if we do not change course,

38:49that we are going to be experiencing a world where in many parts of the world,

38:52it will simply be too hot to live,

38:55where sea levels will rise, where crops will fail.

39:01And they're frightened of that, right?

39:03And it is a moment to really rethink what are we doing on this planet,

39:09if this is the direction that we're headed.

39:12And so the purpose of the teach-in is to just bring all of those people together

39:17and have this conversation.

39:20Yes, we can buy time with technology, right?

39:22Yes, we can do that.

39:23But at the end of the day, what is this telling us about humans

39:29and the way we're living on the planet?

39:31So that is the purpose of the teach-in.

39:33It's really creating a community, a global community of educators

39:37and giving them the chance to interact with each other.

39:40We do it on Zoom calls, but also to bring together people in their community

39:46with a similar concern to start to have these conversations.

39:50And when we're talking of consumption, Dr.

39:55the very basic kind of consumption, food,

40:02just as we don't want to talk of our numbers on the planet,

40:06because that becomes an emotive issue in a democratic setup,

40:10we also do not want to talk of our food choices.

40:14But the fact is, and the numbers are out in the open,

40:16that food is probably the largest,

40:20or if not the largest, the second largest contributor

40:24to greenhouse gases emission.

40:26And we don't want to talk of that.

40:28And the thing is,

40:31carbon-emitting food choices are also mostly food choices

40:38that involve cruelty towards animals,

40:41that involve a distorted relationship between our species and other species.

40:47The thing is, when we say that we must take care of ourselves,

40:50that we must care for our future,

40:53how will we bring in that kind of self-love?

40:56I invite us to think about it.

40:58How will we have that kind of self-love

41:00if we do not have love for the other species that inhibited this planet?

41:05I mean, the very thing on my plate is coming as a result of slaughter.

41:13Why then will I not be disinterested

41:17in stopping the slaughter of the biggest carbon sinks on the planet,

41:22the forests?

41:23For the sake of my food,

41:28we are killing not just directly,

41:30and even as we have spoken over the last 30 minutes or so,

41:34millions of animals have been slaughtered in these 30 minutes just for our appetite.

41:40And not only are these animals being slaughtered,

41:43forests are being cleared,

41:45just so that we can have farms to raise these animals.

41:52Now, when we are clearing those forests,

41:54we are erasing the biggest carbon sinks that we can have.

42:00Also, we are robbing the species of their habitat.

42:06And in doing all that,

42:10how are we displaying any kind of self-love?

42:15So, self-love, when it comes to talking of our own interests as species,

42:19self-love has to be inseparable from love towards the wider ecosystem.

42:26Unfortunately, that's not what our education is teaching young people.

42:30Otherwise, it's very, very easy to take care of this problem.

42:34All the deadlines that we are setting for ourselves,

42:38be it 2030 or 50 or 70,

42:42we can overachieve even before those deadlines.

42:47Because it's we who are doing it.

42:50That's the challenge and that's the opportunity.

42:53It's not being sent down by the gods.

42:57It's not being conspired by the aliens.

43:01We are doing it.

43:01And if we are doing it, we may as well stop it right now.

43:06But to stop it, we require the kind of consciousness

43:10that acknowledges itself as the culprit,

43:13that acknowledges that it has been living in ignorance

43:16and it has been living in ignorance all throughout these centuries,

43:19just that the ignorance was not displaying its devastating consequences

43:24because our numbers were not so large.

43:26And because the industrial revolution had yet not happened,

43:30therefore, we did not have this much power to destruct in our hands.

43:34Now, we have numbers and we have the industry

43:38and we have the technology and the know-how, the knowledge

43:40and we have great power and all this is a very, very explosive combination.

43:46So that's where we are.

43:48And it's a very slippery slope, very slippery slope.

43:54I'm fighting it in my little way on a daily basis

44:00and I see the challenges and the challenge that I'm seeing,

44:06Professor, is really not technological.

44:09Jealousy, you cannot treat through technology.

44:13Ignorance, you cannot treat through technology.

44:15Lovelessness, you cannot treat through technology.

44:18All the human darkness within, you cannot deal through technology.

44:25And when I talk of veganism or when I talk of plastic

44:29or when I talk of population, when I talk of climate,

44:32the obstacle that I face, I repeat, is not technological.

44:36It's not that people are not aware of better technologies.

44:40It's not that people are not aware of the numbers.

44:43It's just that people have not been sensitized enough.

44:46People are not loving enough.

44:48The norms that we have, the norms post the Enlightenment period in Europe,

44:55the religious values that we have, the distorted religious values,

44:58that is not the really spiritual values,

45:03they are not at all conducive towards a solution of this problem.

45:10Education, I think, unfortunately, fortunately,

45:14is the only thing that can save us.

45:16We require huge armies of dedicated educators.

45:22We require tremendous propaganda.

45:24We require publicity in all ways, in all forms.

45:29We require people to go knocking each home

45:33and get the doors open and barge in and have tutorials.

45:38And if that can happen, then probably we can have governments

45:42to tax the right things, to subsidize the right things.

45:45And only then we can have public policy in the right direction.

45:50Well, you know, I certainly, as an educator myself,

45:54and someone who is organizing a worldwide teach-in on climate injustice,

45:58that is a very well-spoken position.

46:02And I agree with you that there are so many solutions

46:12that are within our grasp.

46:13And diet is obviously a huge piece of that.

46:20And engaging people in that conversation

46:23is part of what we want to do for the teach-in.

46:25And I think food is a wonderful avenue

46:29towards engaging people into their sense of relationship with the planet.

46:34Because you don't have to go very far from what's on your plate

46:37to understand how you're impacting the world.

46:41For me, I wrote a book about 15 years ago

46:44called Fighting for Love in the Century of Extinction.

46:47And in some ways, it kind of goes the other way,

46:49which is, what is it that motivates us to even care

46:58about the species of the world?

47:00Why is that the right thing to do?

47:03And fundamentally, it's because if you step out into the world

47:07and you just look at the sky and you touch a handful of earth,

47:14or you smell the smell coming from the bushes,

47:21that's something we don't want to lose.

47:23It's what we are losing, right?

47:25Is that a connection to that world outside?

47:28And that's a big part of human purpose, I think,

47:32is protecting that world so that it will be there for our children

47:38and for all Rubyans to come.

47:41The thing there is to go out and be there with the natural aromas

47:47and just watch an animal.

47:50Or if it is safe enough, just touch a small animal.

47:54Or lie under the starry sky and be able to pause and meditate.

48:00You first of all need values that tell you

48:03that you do not need to be chasing success all the time.

48:07You know, think of an undergrad student.

48:10Why will he spend his nights watching the starry sky

48:16if he could rather slog for grades and ensure a better job offer?

48:20I'm not saying one should not study and not secure better grades.

48:24But the thing is, do we have a culture,

48:28do we have the kind of education that incentivizes reflectiveness,

48:34meditativeness, basic spiritual values like self-inquiry?

48:40Or as teachers, we are all the time motivating our students

48:47and rather pressurizing them.

48:48To do this, to be better, to achieve more,

48:53to have higher grades and CGPA and a better job offer

48:56and an internship there and a job there and all those things.

48:59You know, if the student's success is measured by all these things,

49:03please tell me why will he just spend time sitting by the sea and doing nothing?

49:11Don't get me wrong, I'm not advising that one should just sit by sea and do nothing.

49:15But one should, one should actually for a large part of a day.

49:22One should do that every month.

49:25You know, that is a beautiful way to spend your life.

49:28We'll do well together, Doctor.

49:30Yes, we will.

49:31And you know, we're coming to the end of our hour.

49:34And I'm just so grateful to you for the work you're doing

49:38and for the perspective that you're sharing.

49:40It's not one we hear often.

49:42Because we are all so caught up,

49:50caught up in this race that we need to step off.

49:54So thank you very, very much for the opportunity to talk with you today.

49:58It was a wonderful hour, a wonderful hour.

50:00And I'm sure we'll have more such conversations in the future.

50:04Okay, good to speak with you.

50:07Great, thank you.

50:07Thank you so much.

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