A Haunting - S07E04 - Evil Never Dies
An abusive ghost turns a family's dream home into a nightmare and the property's dark history is revealed.
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00:00A million-dollar mansion on the coast of Florida is rumored to house a terrifying ghost.
00:18It felt like looking into the face of sheer evil.
00:21Alive, he committed unspeakable atrocities.
00:26Someone died from a hanging right there.
00:29Dead, he continues his reign of terror.
00:33You didn't want to turn your back.
00:34You didn't want to close your eyes for fear of what might happen if you did.
00:37I was terrified.
00:39I was afraid for my children.
00:41I was afraid for myself.
00:44Whatever was there was after me.
00:47Will the family get out before it's too late?
00:52In America, there is real evil.
00:56It lurks in the darkest shadows and in our most ordinary towns.
01:01Between the worlds we see and the things we fear, there are doors.
01:08When they are opened, nightmares become reality.
01:23On the waterways and marshes of the Escambia Bay in Pensacola, Florida, stands a majestic
01:29million-dollar mansion.
01:34In the summer of 2009, Jennifer Welburn and her two teenage daughters, Lauren and Candace,
01:40bask in the beauty of their new home.
01:45Before we moved to Florida, it was just the girls and I.
01:47I was a single mom trying to raise them, put them both through school, take care of all
01:52of their daily needs all by myself.
01:54I was like, wow, this is really my house.
01:58I was like, I'm dreaming somebody smacked me and waking me up.
02:03Hey, Jen, you about ready to go?
02:08I was until I came out here.
02:12Pretty spectacular, isn't it?
02:19A few months earlier, Jennifer and her high school sweetheart, Jamie, reconnected and
02:26got engaged.
02:27Together, they moved into their dream house.
02:30I found this beautiful home close to the water.
02:33It was the perfect family house because there was plenty of room for the kids.
02:38So, Lauren, how many times did that guy call you today?
02:41When I first met Jamie, I absolutely loved him.
02:46Twice.
02:47No, it was three times.
02:49Like mother, like daughter.
02:51Heartbreaker.
02:52He was really sweet and you could tell he made mom happy.
02:57This is a guy that I can look up to as a dad.
03:02I figured that we would live there happily ever after, but that's not how it turned out.
03:12It turns out, the beauty of the house and the surrounding land mask a violent history.
03:24Pensacola, Florida is one of the oldest European settlements in North America.
03:29By the mid-1800s, the native population had been completely overrun by new landowners.
03:36Cotton plantations flourished and slaves accounted for nearly half of Florida's growing population.
03:43You can imagine Escambia Bay being the waterway right on the property.
03:48It was definitely used in slave trading.
03:50Today, the horrors of the past are buried deep, but not dead.
03:59Someone has never been able to let go of the land or the house.
04:11A few weeks after moving into the house was when I actually noticed the first signs of
04:16something strange going on.
04:20I went upstairs and noticed that the pictures were hanging upside down on the wall, as if
04:27that's the way we had placed them.
04:42Initially, I thought that the girls might be playing a prank on me.
04:46Lauren?
04:47So, I walked into my daughter's room.
04:51Lauren?
04:58And her windows were wide open.
05:01Candace?
05:02The blinds were pulled up.
05:05So, you know the air condition is on.
05:08Why are all the windows in Lauren's room open?
05:11She hasn't even been here all day.
05:12I didn't open them.
05:15Well, somebody opened them.
05:17It wasn't me.
05:18So, I suppose you didn't flip the picture in the hallway either, huh?
05:22Mom, what are you talking about?
05:24Forget it.
05:25Just please keep the windows closed, okay?
05:28Okay.
05:30I thought it was really weird, but I decided not to pay too much attention to it, and I
05:34just put it to the side and tried not to think about it.
05:38Over the following months, Jennifer isn't the only one who senses something strange
05:44in the new house.
05:49A few weeks after moving in, Lauren and Candace enjoy girl time at home while their mom and
05:55Jamie are out.
05:58The first time something happened, Candace and I were alone in the house.
06:08What was that?
06:12I don't know.
06:14You stay here.
06:15I'll go check it out.
06:21And we kept hearing this noise upstairs sound like somebody was walking around.
06:38I went into my mom's room where the noise was coming from.
06:44I told you to stay downstairs!
07:09What was it?
07:11I don't know.
07:14There was nobody up there, so we just kind of swept it under the rug and just assumed
07:19that it was the house.
07:21Probably nothing.
07:22Come on.
07:30A few nights later, Jennifer is alone in the kitchen when she senses a change in the air
07:38as if someone were watching her.
07:44What's going on?
07:46For the past month, Jennifer Welburn and her daughters have had the distinct feeling that
08:14they are not alone in their charming Escambia Bay, Florida mansion.
08:25I would walk around the house, I felt constantly like I was being watched, but I could never
08:31pinpoint what exactly it was, it was just a really eerie feeling.
08:39My grandfather, from before I was even born, had shared ghost stories that just got passed
08:43down, but I never really believed in any of it myself.
08:48You have to see it to believe it.
08:54But not too long after moving in, Jennifer has a terrifying encounter she can't explain.
09:16It felt like looking into the face of just sheer evil.
09:20I heard a blood-curdling scream, so I immediately ran down thinking that something very bad
09:27had happened.
09:28What's wrong?
09:29There's someone in the window!
09:30There's someone out there watching me!
09:42We went outside, and there was nothing there.
09:52No one, no sign of anyone, I just didn't see nothing.
09:56Well, whoever it was, they're gone now.
10:00Did you get a good look at them?
10:03No, but there was someone there.
10:07It was a man, he was looking right at me.
10:11But Jamie doesn't believe her.
10:14It was probably just kids.
10:16You probably scared them just as much as they scared you.
10:19Somebody was there.
10:22Somebody was there.
10:25Maybe the house is haunted or something.
10:30Haunted house?
10:31You've been watching way too much television.
10:34We know that stuff doesn't even exist.
10:36Finally, I told her, let's just let it go and keep an eye on things, make sure everything's
10:41going to be fine, no problem.
10:44He didn't feel the house was haunted.
10:47He thought that I was crazy.
10:49There's no way to explain what's happening, so he just didn't want to hear any of it.
10:56Come on, let's just go on back in the house, okay?
10:58Come on back in.
11:00I was really at battle with myself because on one hand I knew what I had seen, I knew
11:04what I had experienced.
11:05Come on.
11:06And on the other hand, I really didn't believe it.
11:09Everything's all right.
11:10I just could not believe that I had a ghost in my house that was haunting it.
11:16At first, Jennifer keeps the unexpected intruder a secret from her daughters.
11:31I was worried because I had physically experienced something and seen something that no one else
11:39had.
11:42But she finally decides to bring it out in the open.
11:48I've sat down with the two girls and explained to them a little bit about what I thought
11:53and what I felt, and sure enough, they were experiencing the same types of events and
12:00emotions that I was.
12:02I finally felt like, okay, I'm not going crazy.
12:04Finally, someone else can see this too.
12:07Knowing that mom was going through the same thing definitely made me scared.
12:12When you're the only one feeling it, you're kind of like, well, maybe it's nothing, just
12:16kind of brushing under the rug.
12:18But to know that somebody else is experiencing the same things makes it more real and definitely
12:23a whole lot more scary.
12:25For the next few weeks, talking about the haunting only heightens the fear in the house.
12:32As a parent, it was terrifying that my girls were having to witness a lot of the same things
12:38that I had.
12:39It was a difficult situation because I didn't know what to do.
12:42I didn't know how I could help them.
12:43I couldn't even answer all of these questions for myself.
12:51Within a few months of moving in, tension is at an all-time high.
13:02Lauren finds herself walking around on eggshells in constant fear of the unknown and the unseen.
13:32I was in my room and I turned around and it was just a really eerie feeling.
13:47Something was in my closet.
14:03Something was in my closet.
14:05For the last few months, Lauren and Candice Welburn have been experiencing paranormal activity
14:30in their million-dollar Pensacola, Florida home.
14:34Everywhere they go, the teenagers sense evil.
14:40While their mother, Jennifer, is convinced she's seen a ghost.
14:46I was terrified.
14:48I was afraid for my children.
14:51I was afraid for myself.
14:53Jennifer's fiancé, Jamie, doesn't believe her.
14:58Strange things were happening in the house that I didn't believe in the paranormal.
15:02It was such a big house.
15:04I just thought that maybe she wasn't used to it because it has its own little creaks and sounds.
15:17Then one night, Lauren's instincts go on high alert when she feels a presence in her bedroom.
15:28I was in my room and I turned around and something was in my closet.
15:59I was petrified.
16:04It had this hold on me.
16:06It wouldn't let me call for help.
16:09I tried to scream out for my mom, but I couldn't get anything out.
16:13I felt absolutely helpless.
16:17I don't know how long it was.
16:19Seconds, maybe minutes before I was finally able to scream.
16:24I heard Lauren scream.
16:26Lauren, what happened?
16:28And could tell by the way she yelled for me that something had hurt her.
16:32Honey, what's wrong?
16:34What's the matter?
16:35She picked her arm up to hang on to me, to cling on to me.
16:40She had two, it looked like claw marks.
16:44They looked fresh.
16:46It was like she had a knife in her hand.
16:49Two, it looked like claw marks.
16:51They looked fresh.
16:53It was pretty new, whatever had happened.
16:55Lauren remembers the man lunging at her, but not being scratched.
17:00What did you do to your arm?
17:03I don't remember ever being scratched or feeling pain.
17:09Seeing that there was completely horrifying for me.
17:15It really scared me.
17:22Jennifer fears that the ghost she saw in the window has now attacked her daughter.
17:31What happened?
17:33There was a, a man.
17:37She was scratched, look.
17:40Jamie has no idea what to think.
17:43Now both his fiance and her daughter are convinced the house is haunted.
17:47By what?
17:49The first thing that went through my mind is, how did it happen?
17:53Has she decided to hurt herself for attention?
17:56Hurt herself and not want to tell us?
17:57I mean, I'm really concerned of what the surrounding circumstances are of how it actually happened.
18:02She doesn't know.
18:04There was a, a man.
18:08It attacked me.
18:10I'm not going back in there.
18:13I can't go back in there.
18:14You don't have to, honey. You don't have to.
18:17She was shaking, trembling.
18:19She didn't understand what had just happened to her.
18:21She didn't even really understand what she had just seen.
18:24As a parent, you protect your child, and I was not able to do that.
18:29I was terrified.
18:31Whatever it was definitely meant us harm.
18:35Jennifer decides to take no chances with her daughters.
18:40That night, we took Lauren and Candace, and we all slept in the same room.
18:46I didn't want my girls alone. I didn't want to be alone.
18:50We needed to be together where we could look out and protect one another.
18:57No longer able to hold back her anger, Jennifer confronts Jamie about the haunting.
19:04What are we going to do?
19:07About what?
19:08About the house.
19:10Lauren was attacked. I'm really worried.
19:13I don't know, Jen. I just can't believe this stuff is happening to us.
19:17In the world I live in, if someone's a threat, you can face it.
19:22And there, I felt like there's just nothing I could do.
19:24I couldn't really give them any peace of mind. I mean, what could I really say?
19:29It was really frustrating that Jamie did not believe.
19:35Well, I'm going to find someone. Someone who can help us.
19:39Okay.
19:42I knew that my house was haunted.
19:45I had to get help. I had to do something.
19:48Because I did not know what was going to happen next.
19:52With the help of friends, Jennifer finds Tony Talley, a paranormal expert, and invites her to investigate the house.
20:03My name is Tony. I'm an empath, and that means that I feel things very deeply about environments and people.
20:10Right away, Tony feels that the energy surrounding the house is off.
20:16When I arrived on the property, something just didn't ring right.
20:20I felt very uncomfortable.
20:26The level of negativity made you feel like you had to look over your shoulder.
20:30You definitely knew something just wasn't right.
20:33Hi, I'm Tony. Jennifer reached out to me.
20:37My biggest hope with Miss Tony coming to the house was just to tell Jennifer that it's all in her head,
20:43and go back to being life as normal, and just forget about the whole thing.
20:47Hi. Thank you so much for coming.
20:50How is Lauren?
20:52She is still really upset.
20:56You could just really see that Jen was wearing the stress.
21:01You could see tightness in her jaws.
21:03Her whole body language just really showed that she'd been under stress for a while.
21:08She was refusing to sleep in her room.
21:13Well, that's where I'd like to begin.
21:15In Lauren's room. Is it upstairs?
21:17Yes. It's the first door on your right.
21:34Tony can immediately sense an evil force at work when suddenly...
21:41That dark energy, he had written his name in the mirror.
21:45H.A.L. Howell.
21:57I was awestruck. I wanted to run.
22:03For more of Haunting, visit destinationamerica.com
22:11Haunting
22:22For the past few months, Jennifer and her two teenage daughters have been spooked
22:27by what they believe is a ghost in their Pensacola, Florida home.
22:32Then, Jennifer's oldest daughter, Lauren, is attacked.
22:36Ah!
22:39Lauren! Honey, what's wrong?
22:42As I saw the marks on her arm, I was terrified.
22:48I knew that if it had attacked her on this level, I was afraid what was going to be next.
22:54A skeptic of the paranormal, Jennifer's fiancé, Jamie, has been no source of comfort.
23:01I just thought people were just a little overdramatic.
23:04If the wind blew, they'd blame it on a ghost. I quite frankly didn't believe in it.
23:12Feeling desperate and alone in her fight, Jennifer calls upon Tony Talley,
23:18an empath with the ability to feel the presence of entities from other worlds.
23:23My biggest hope was that Miss Tony would be able to come in
23:28and give us our house and our lives back again.
23:35It doesn't take long for the ghost to introduce himself.
23:42There was a large mirror that had partially fogged,
23:45and that dark energy, he had written his name in the mirror, H-A-L, Hal.
23:51I was up close and personal and in a one-sided fistfight with dark, evil energy.
24:03You are not welcome here! You must leave this house!
24:09You hear about things like this, but until you see it with your own eyes,
24:14you just always kind of have a little bit of doubt when you hear other people talk about it.
24:18Well, now here I am in a situation that I can't doubt the people that have invited me.
24:25On the inside, it made me feel nervous.
24:28Even though I was very afraid, the family needed me to be stable and confident
24:36to get this energy out of their home.
24:38The only spirit welcome in this house is the spirit of God!
24:49H-A-L
24:55The ghost of Hal eventually draws Toni to the backyard,
24:59where a feeling of dread immediately washes over her.
25:06As I made my way around the outside of the home,
25:09it became very clear that a lot of lives were lost on that property.
25:14As an empath, coming in contact with that kind of feeling is extreme sadness.
25:21And then, she sees them.
25:30I had a flash vision of multiple people hanging from the trees.
25:37The men appear to be slaves.
25:40The house sits near Escambia Bay,
25:42believed to have been the site of a slave plantation in the 19th century.
25:47According to Toni's vision, Hal was the plantation's slave master.
25:56I came to the conclusion that this entity Hal was over the slaves,
26:02somebody who mistreated the slaves.
26:05These are people that died without their last rites.
26:09They died under the most cruel circumstances.
26:12I knew this house had a very dark presence.
26:15I knew the family was in danger.
26:25Toni gathers the family together and confirms their worst nightmare.
26:30Their house is haunted by an evil ghost.
26:35I know who attacked Lauren.
26:37His name is Hal.
26:40And he used to live on this land.
26:43Hal was a plantation master.
26:45It was ingrained in his personality to be cruel and inhumane.
26:50And he brought that with him into his afterlife.
26:54I could see Hal to be in excess of 6'2".
26:59Very large build.
27:01Very balded looking.
27:03A scour across his face all the time.
27:06You could see the meanness on this person
27:08from the top of his head to the soles of his feet.
27:11If he were to laugh or smile,
27:13it would be at somebody else's weakness or pain.
27:16I had not told her anything about what he looked like
27:20or what we had actually seen.
27:22She came in and described it to a T.
27:24I wanted to feel relieved, but I didn't.
27:27I felt more terrified knowing that someone who was an expert
27:32in this sort of thing had seen the exact same figure that I had seen.
27:37It actually made me more scared to be at the house.
27:40So how do we get rid of him?
27:42I believe we need to do a house cleansing.
27:47And I'm going to start in Lauren's room.
27:50At this point in time, I was willing to try anything to reclaim my house.
27:54It was surreal that Miss Toni was able to validate
27:58some of the things that were going on there.
28:01One half of me, I wanted to believe her,
28:03and the other half of me still didn't.
28:11I hereby banish all negative energy from this house.
28:15I knew that at that point, the mission was to rid the house
28:20of all that darkness and all that evilness.
28:23Through the power of light and love.
28:27For the next few days, the family senses a levity in the house
28:32as if hell has disappeared.
28:35After the cleansing on the house, it just felt completely different.
28:39It felt like it had felt when we first moved in.
28:42We had this little glimmer of hope that the cleansing had worked.
28:48Everybody in the house just had an initial sigh of relief.
28:52This is done. It's finished.
28:55I was incredibly hopeful that we were going to get our life back.
28:58That the house was going to once again be my dream home.
29:08But the peaceful state of the house is about to come to an abrupt end.
29:13Hell is back.
29:25HELL IS BACK
29:41Ever since they moved into their million-dollar mansion in Pensacola, Florida,
29:46Jennifer and her teenage daughters have been tormented
29:49by the ghost of a former slave plantation master named Hal.
29:54All of us were scared. There was a lot of tension in the house
29:57because we didn't know what to expect anymore.
30:00In the fall of 2009, despite her fiancé Jamie's disbelief in ghosts,
30:06Jennifer brings in an expert to cleanse the house of the evil spirit.
30:11But she soon finds out it didn't work.
30:15He was back and he was back with a vengeance.
30:25HELL IS BACK
30:32I felt a, just a kind of a grip on my ankle.
30:38I had this just gripping fear go through my body, like,
30:42this is someone trying to hurt me.
30:45I knew that someone was under my bed.
30:47Being a good Southern Christian boy, I keep a black Bible right by my bed
30:52with a .45 loaded and cock right on top of it.
30:55What is it?
30:56There's someone under the bed!
30:58I was terrified. I didn't realize what was going on and what was happening.
31:04You got three seconds to come out, I'm going to open fire!
31:09I just wanted to get at it and I wanted to inflict pain on it.
31:13Ah!
31:21There was nothing there. Nothing.
31:24That was impossible and it freaked me out.
31:28Jamie realizes he's up against the same evil force that's been after his family
31:33and now it's after him.
31:35This is my house!
31:37I just lost it.
31:39This is my house!
31:41I went on a tirade.
31:42This is my house!
31:44A normal person would probably think I was insane.
31:46You want to bully somebody, bully me!
31:49I felt so helpless.
31:50This is my house!
31:51I have a loaded .45 and I can't defend myself.
31:54I knew that this was how he wanted to ruin my life and my family
31:58and he was not going to stop until he did.
32:01It was completely terrifying to know that whatever this was
32:04could pull a man out of bed like it did.
32:08It terrified all of us.
32:11For Jamie, this was the first time that he knew in his heart of hearts
32:16that the house really was haunted.
32:19It caused him to feel like he wasn't in charge of his household anymore.
32:23There was something there that was bigger.
32:26Something there that had more control.
32:29That scared Jamie.
32:36With nowhere else to turn,
32:38Jamie was pleased with empath Tony Talley to come to their aid once again.
32:43I was hopeful that she might still be able to help us.
32:47Maybe something was just inadvertently left out the first time
32:52that would completely cleanse the house and give us back our home and our family.
32:58That night, Tony returns to do a second cleansing.
33:0218-year-old Lauren and 17-year-old Candice are not present.
33:08I need you to remain in prayer with me and focus your energy.
33:16I hereby banish all negative energy from this home.
33:20When I was invited to come back to the home the second time...
33:24The Lord is my shepherd.
33:26After walking through and blessing and praying again,
33:30I knew it would take divine intervention to be able to get that dark energy out of there.
33:35He leads me in the path of righteousness for his name's sake.
33:39It made me very afraid for the family.
33:42Afraid for the teenage daughters.
33:44Afraid for anybody else, really, that would come into that home.
33:54All at once, there was a very large thud on the wall directly behind me.
34:00Tony has made someone angry.
34:04I just kind of, like, lost the feeling of direction.
34:11She just does an immediate stop...
34:18and gets thrown back against the wall.
34:21It felt like somebody had punched me.
34:26As she takes her hand away, it's pretty obvious that something...
34:30Oh, my God! What is that?
34:31The only way to describe it looked like something bitter.
34:33It was gruesome. I mean, it was bad.
34:36It made me feel like I was up against the most evil thing I've ever faced in my life.
34:42Tony reluctantly claims defeat.
34:45It appears Hal has won.
34:48I can't help you anymore.
34:50Everything until now has just been a warning.
34:53Miss Tony said that she didn't feel that she alone would be enough
34:58to rid the house and the land from Hal.
35:02I knew Hal was not going to leave.
35:05This energy that Hal is, this...
35:08This is beyond where my expertise lies.
35:12Hal's energy was just not going to go easily.
35:16It really required divine intervention.
35:19I'll find someone to help you.
35:21But I can't tell you what to do.
35:24Only your hearts can do that.
35:28She said that there was not going to be a happy ending.
35:34That this is only going to get worse.
35:41She really felt that we were in danger.
35:46It was devastating because you spend most of your life
35:50thinking and dreaming about an opportunity to live in a house like that,
35:545,000 square foot, and it turns out to be a living nightmare.
36:05For now, Jamie and Jennifer decide to keep Hal's attack on Tony a secret from the girls.
36:11But they do tell them they are thinking about moving.
36:16I was ready to be out of that house and try to get the normalcy back in our lives,
36:20but after everything that had happened, I was just... I was ready to go.
36:27But it won't be soon enough.
36:34I went into my mom's closet.
36:46Mom! Mom!
37:01For the past seven months,
37:03Jennifer and her family have been living in a haunted million-dollar mansion near Escambia Bay, Florida,
37:09while an angry ghost targets family members one by one.
37:15An empath has had visions of a ghost named Hal,
37:19who she believes used to be a slave plantation master.
37:27He's angry.
37:30I was scared to death.
37:32He was a bully.
37:34He liked being in control.
37:36He liked people to be afraid of him.
37:39And has warned them they are in great danger.
37:43The family makes plans to move out of what was once their dream house as soon as possible.
37:50When Miss Tony shared with us that we were in danger,
37:54Jamie and I decided to have a serious talk about the house.
37:59We didn't know where we would go, but we didn't know what else to do.
38:03We had to think about the girls.
38:18I saw this shadow figure, and I knew that it was Hal.
38:26I felt this burning feeling on the back of my neck.
38:30I just remember it hurting so bad.
38:33What?
38:36My God!
38:37She had a scratch going from the base of her hairline halfway down her back.
38:42For Jennifer, this is the last straw.
38:46We're leaving. Right now.
38:53It was at this point that I said, I don't care.
38:56My kids, this is not worth this.
38:59I don't care about the house. I want out, and I want out now.
39:04As much as I had loved the house, I didn't want it.
39:08I didn't care about having my own room anymore.
39:11I didn't care about how big the house was. I was done.
39:14I couldn't handle that house anymore.
39:16Come on, Candace. Come on!
39:18It doesn't matter what it costs. It doesn't matter what the devastation is financially.
39:22It's time to say goodbye, cut our losses, and get my family to safety.
39:29As crazy as it sounds, I felt like I was in a fight with what was in that house.
39:36Girls, come on. Get in the car. Let's go. Get in. Please. Come on.
39:40I've never walked away from a fight.
39:43That's the moment I had to concede that it won.
39:48That I would have to take my hit and move on.
39:53I focused straight. I put that car in drive.
39:57I never looked back.
40:09After this happened, we were struggling financially for a little while
40:13because all of our money was tied up in the house.
40:17We sold the house back to the bank,
40:19and the house that we paid a million dollars for was sold for $119,000.
40:27I'm very blessed that we were able to get out unhurt and relocate
40:32and have our family together and safe.
40:36It was a very, very difficult time.
40:42Before I moved into the house, I did not believe in ghosts at all.
40:47I don't know that it's something that I'll ever fully put behind me.
40:51I think that it's something that I'll always deal with.
40:55I completely believe in the paranormal now.
40:57Whereas before, I would laugh at anybody that said it.
41:01Until you live it, don't judge it, because it is real.
41:06I was very sick for the next few years after coming in contact with the house.
41:11I had to have an emergency surgery.
41:13They removed a mystery four-pound tumor that had doubled my intestine in half.
41:17It was life-threatening.
41:20I stopped doing house blessings altogether.
41:24I believe that opens a gateway that invites dark, evil energy.
41:33I don't think I'll ever be the same again.
41:35I don't really think there's any way you could.
41:37You can't experience things happening like this to your family,
41:41things happening like this in your own home, and forget about it.
41:46It changes who you are.
41:49I don't know if whatever this was has manifested itself at all
41:52to the people that are living there now, but I have no doubt it's still there.