Reaction as Sunderland lose to Plymouth plus Middlesbrough chat
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast, brought to you by the Sunland Echo.
00:24My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Copley and Phil Smith.
00:28For the first time this season, Sunland have lost the game of championship football.
00:32Their unbeaten start to the campaign came unstuck against Plymouth Argyle at Home Park on Saturday afternoon.
00:39Phil, obviously a really disappointing way to lose that match, but you were at the game.
00:43I mean, what did you make of Sunland's performance?
00:47I didn't think it was a terrible performance per se.
00:51I think that the first half, certainly the first half an hour,
00:55I thought they were much the better side without being quite at their sharpest.
00:59I think it was pretty much what we've seen all season from Sunland, really.
01:02Plymouth had a fair amount of the ball without doing much with it.
01:05And when Sunland won it back, they were breaking really quickly and posing a threat.
01:09Maybe not quite so much as they had done against Sheffield Wednesday,
01:13but still I thought they were in the ascendancy.
01:15And then Plymouth ended the first half really strongly
01:18and Sunland weren't really able to get that momentum back in the second half.
01:22I think you have to give Plymouth a lot of credit.
01:24I think people had made out that they were some terrible team before the game,
01:28while they'd drawn two of their four games.
01:31And I think you saw that they had some individual quality.
01:33I thought Sissoko on the right wing was excellent.
01:36On the left wing, sorry.
01:37Whitaker on the right wing, we know he's a good player.
01:39So it was disappointing.
01:41I think that there was some positives.
01:43Mundell was excellent.
01:45And the fact that Sunland were able to get back in the game,
01:47having gone two on down was encouraging.
01:49Maybe just guilty of a little bit of naivety at the end.
01:51So I'm not too concerned, while it was disappointing.
01:56I think the big change from previous games is they gave up a lot more chances.
02:00No teams really being able to get out of Sunland's back four.
02:03And what we saw on Saturday was that the likes of Sissoko were very able
02:06to get the ball in space and cause problems.
02:08So definitely some things to work on.
02:12Definitely some, I suppose, slight alarm bells, if you like.
02:16But I saw a lot worse performances in Sunland towards the end of last season.
02:20I didn't think this was in that category.
02:22I personally thought a point would have been a fair result.
02:26I mean, James, obviously it was always going to end at some point, wasn't it?
02:30This perfect start of the season, based on what you saw on Saturday.
02:34Do you think there are cause for optimism going forward for Sunland yet?
02:39Yeah, I don't think there's any reason to panic.
02:42I thought Sunland actually kept Plymouth at arm's length in the first half.
02:45As Phil mentioned, they weren't exactly at their best.
02:47But I was encouraged because I thought, actually, there's a couple of extra gears here
02:52that come from Sunland, as we've seen against Burnley, Sheffield, Wednesday, Portsmouth and Cardiff.
02:57I felt like Sunland's ceiling was a little bit higher.
03:00Credit to Plymouth, they came out in the second half and they really put it on Sunland.
03:04And it was a massive gut check, I thought.
03:06The atmosphere at home park sounded excellent, to be honest.
03:09It sounded like they got behind the team, obviously desperate for a win as well.
03:13So I think it's a bit of a learning curve, really, that perhaps there was a little bit of complacency.
03:20Not that I'm accusing Sunland's team of being arrogant.
03:22But obviously, you know, when you've won four on the bounce,
03:25everyone's telling you how much of a good team you are and how good of players you are.
03:30You maybe slip into the habit of thinking, well, we'll just sort of beat these because we're good enough.
03:35But it didn't quite work out that way and Plymouth really sort of came on strong.
03:39There was a couple of little individual errors as well.
03:41But for me, no reason to panic.
03:44I didn't see it as some sort of tactical masterclass by Wayne Rooney,
03:49or there was massive gaping holes in La Brice's Sunland plan.
03:53I just think Plymouth maybe wanted it that little bit more on the day.
03:57A couple of bits of good fortune as well.
03:58I mean, I think their second goal, obviously, with Paterson producing an amazing save and it comes straight off Ballard,
04:05was very unfortunate for Sunland, really.
04:08So, yeah, I'm not overly concerned.
04:11I think it's disappointing.
04:12There's obviously disappointing facets of the performance for sure.
04:15But I'm hoping, actually, that in the long run, this sort of result can be a bit of a wake-up call
04:21and sort of make them a bit stronger going forward.
04:23Because it's a reminder, actually, that if this team want to get where we all think they can get,
04:29which is challenging for the top six, maybe with a couple of additions in January,
04:34depending on how the league maps out, then you have to be really, really consistent.
04:38They've done that for four games.
04:39But against Plymouth, they maybe just dropped below the level slightly, particularly in that second half.
04:44And it's a lesson, actually, that what Lebris has said, that you've got to go for the jugular as well when you're leading 1-0.
04:50You really need to try and put teams away, especially the Championship,
04:52because they're always going to have 20, 30 minutes and Plymouth provided that.
04:57I mean, you mentioned him already there, Phil, but Romain Mundell, three goals in three now for him
05:03since he came in at the start in 11 after Jack Clarke's departure.
05:06I mean, how good has he been in recent weeks?
05:10Yeah, I think he's been excellent.
05:12I thought he was Sunderland's best player even before he scored the goal on Saturday, to be honest.
05:17I think there were still some signs at times in his game of a little bit of naivety.
05:21There was a couple of times when he took a shot on when I think it probably wasn't the best option.
05:24But generally speaking, I think he's a persistent threat in the same way that Clarke was when he carries the ball.
05:31And I think the thing I like about Mundell is as well, is that actually,
05:34I've said this before, his work rate is really, really good.
05:37I think we sometimes associate wingers and young wingers with, yeah, they've got talent,
05:41but you don't always get that sort of solid, basic performance with them.
05:45Whereas Mundell, you definitely do.
05:47I think he's been excellent, a brilliant bit of recruitment, really, to see the opportunity to sign him in January.
05:53He already looks like he'll be worth a hell of a lot more than what Sunderland paid for him to get him from standard liaise.
05:58And I think that, you know, when I was saying before that, you know, I thought a point would have been a fair result.
06:03Don't get me wrong, Plymouth outplayed Sunderland for the first 25 minutes, half an hour of the second half.
06:09They absolutely did.
06:10And like I say, I think that they found space in Sunderland's set-up that we haven't seen before, but Sunderland could have won it.
06:17You know, before Edwards' goal, after Mundell had scored, he put in a brilliant cross for Isidore at the back post,
06:22which Isidore headed into the ground and over the bar.
06:24And although it was quite a narrow angle, he probably should have hit the target.
06:28You know, and if that goes in, then it's a 3-2 win and some just come from behind.
06:32So, yeah, I think that Mundell has been, you know, you could, I know it's, you know, he didn't start the first couple of games,
06:39but I think you could make a case, you could put him in there, couldn't you, for like player of the season so far in the early five games,
06:44because of the context of what he's had to take on in replacing Jack Clarke.
06:47I mean, you think about the pressure going into that game the day after, well, Clarke hadn't officially signed for Ipswich,
06:53but the day we knew he was going, for Mundell to produce that performance against Burnley, wasn't it?
06:57And then to back it up with the last two.
07:00You know, I think that obviously you urge a little bit of caution because we've seen with all of these players,
07:05this is still pretty much Mundell's first season of senior football.
07:08And we've seen with like so many Sunderland players over the last three years,
07:11that inevitably there'll be some fatigue and probably a little bit of dip in form at some point.
07:15But I love watching him play. He gets stuck in, like he had a little scrap with Joe Edwards, which maybe wasn't advisable,
07:22but I think Sunderland fans like to see their winger getting stuck in and, you know, really playing for the bag.
07:27So, honestly, I can't speak highly enough for Mundell.
07:30I think he's been exceptional for the last three games and long may that continue.
07:34There was a moment in the second half as well.
07:36I think it was just before their equaliser, actually around the 50-minute mark,
07:41and Mundell won the ball in his own box.
07:43He beat his man and carried Sunderland 50 yards up the pitch.
07:46Now, that's something we actually saw Jack Clarke do a lot for Sunderland.
07:50And in that instance, it relieved a lot of pressure, obviously came to bear about three or four minutes later,
07:55and Sunderland did eventually concede.
07:57But as well as his attacking output, he's got three and five, I think.
08:00It's that defensive side of the game that Phil mentions, which is really important for wingers,
08:05and especially at Sunderland as well, where hard work and graft is so highly rated.
08:10And I think that's what's so pleasing is that he has shown that he doesn't appear to have that sort of winger syndrome
08:16that we talk about sometimes, where they're a bit sort of flashy and airy-fairy.
08:20He really likes getting stuck in.
08:22Phil mentioned the battle he had with Edwards.
08:25He was well up for that.
08:26And I think Danny Collins was actually talking about it on the commentary
08:31that maybe it was time just to withdraw him, actually, because he was maybe getting a little too stuck in.
08:36But in fairness to Mundell, he managed to keep his head.
08:38And not long after that, he scored Sunderland's equaliser.
08:41So, I think he's got a good temperament.
08:43Obviously, can't be doing the stuff that happened with Edwards every game,
08:47because it will probably result in a red card eventually.
08:50But I sort of appreciate his willingness to get stuck in and have a go.
08:55I think he's been really impressive so far.
08:58And out on the other flank as well, Patrick Roberts' first goal of the season.
09:02I mean, first goal since...
09:04I was trying to think, is he scored since he scored that last-minute equaliser against Watford?
09:08And that was, what, April of last year or something?
09:11It's been a long, long time.
09:13But he did score at the weekend.
09:15I mean, just reward for a very impressive start of the season for him.
09:21Yeah, and I think that, like...
09:22I was a little bit surprised when he stepped up to take the penalty, actually.
09:26I was kind of thinking when it first got awarded, I wasn't sure who was going to take it.
09:30It was interesting. There was no doubt whatsoever.
09:32Like, Roberts had the ball pretty quickly.
09:33So, it seems like that's probably something that he stuck his hand up before saying he wants them,
09:38which I think is a great sign.
09:40I think he's playing really well this season.
09:41One of the things that I find so interesting about Roberts is that, like,
09:45he has some role in pretty much every Sunderland goal at the moment.
09:49I've said this a few times when we were talking last year.
09:51I can't remember whether it was 10, 15 games into the season, something like that.
09:56And somebody asked Tony Mowbray about the fact that, at that point,
09:58Roberts didn't have many goals or assists.
10:01And Mowbray sort of said, like,
10:04yeah, that's absolutely true and we want more from him.
10:06But if you dig a little bit deeper, I think the phrase they use in data analysis,
10:10I think they call it second assists,
10:12which is where you're the person who passes to the person who gets the assist.
10:15I know some people hate that kind of stats.
10:17But what was really interesting was Mowbray said Roberts is basically top.
10:21So sometimes he doesn't necessarily get the headline of the goal or the assist,
10:24but he's involved in a lot of goals.
10:25Now, obviously, after his hamstring injury in the second half of last season,
10:28you know, his output clearly dipped significantly.
10:30I don't think anyone would argue that he was, you know,
10:33anything other than a long way short of his best.
10:34But I think you've seen again this season that he has got goals and assists,
10:38but also he's playing, like, pretty much every Sunderland goal,
10:43Roberts has some kind of role in it.
10:44It might not be him playing the final pass or the final cross or sticking it in the net,
10:48but he's invariably involved somehow, whether it's through set pieces or open play.
10:51And again, when I'm talking about those fine margins in the games,
10:54he put in an amazing cross on his right foot, which Isidore,
10:57maybe Isidore with five more games under his belt, gets on the end of and heads into the net.
11:02And it's 3-2, just didn't quite get there on Saturday.
11:04So I think I actually wrote my analysis that the two big positives were the two wingers.
11:10I think Robertson and Mundell were Sunderland's best performers on the day.
11:15And I think that they're in a really, really good place right now.
11:17And I think Roberts had a poor second half of last season.
11:20I don't think anybody would sort of question that.
11:23And I know there was a big push to get him back in for pre-season,
11:26to get his fitness where it needed to be so that he was ready to hit the ground running in third place.
11:30And we obviously took that on board because, you know,
11:32his level at the moment is really, really good.
11:37Some negatives to address, James.
11:39Obviously, you know, conceding a goal in the manner that Sunderland did right at the death there.
11:44Always disappointing, but perhaps a little bit more disappointing
11:46given the fact that Anthony Patson will probably feel he should have done better with the initial effort.
11:50I mean, it feels as if there's been quite an outcry online.
11:53But what do you make of it?
11:54Because surely it's just a case of goalkeepers make mistakes and it is going to happen from time to time.
12:00I think so.
12:01I think it's obviously really frustrating because Sunderland have equalised.
12:06The seven minutes have gone up on the added time board and you're thinking,
12:09right, Sunderland are in the ascendancy, we're going to win this.
12:11And then really it's come down to an individual mistake, hasn't it, in terms of Patson.
12:16But there's a couple of things to highlight before, you know, in the faces leading up to it and in the shot as well,
12:22which Patson eventually saves, which I think is from their centre back.
12:25He's got all of the time in the world and Sunderland really should be getting out to close him down.
12:30So I think you have to look at it in terms of, you know, a collective defence,
12:36especially coming towards that later part of the game.
12:40I think Anthony Patson's copped a fair bit of criticism.
12:43You know, some of it is justified when it comes to areas of his game.
12:47At the end of the day, he's a young Championship goalkeeper.
12:50People will highlight the fact that he's sort of 24, 25 now.
12:53That is still really young for a Championship goalkeeper.
12:55He's got a fair amount of experience under his belt, which is obviously helpful.
12:59I think the nod towards his distribution is fair.
13:06Perhaps it could be better. I'd imagine that's something he's trying to work on.
13:10But let's be really honest about it.
13:11If his distribution was sort of Jordan Pickford levels, then he probably wouldn't be at Sunderland still
13:15because his shot stopping is unbelievable, usually, anyway.
13:19I mean, I mentioned it earlier, but Plymouth's second goal, to get a hand on that, it is absolutely ridiculous.
13:24It's one of the saves of the season.
13:26He is an unbelievable shot stopper.
13:29I like his temperament and goal as well.
13:31He's sort of very laid back.
13:32I think he's sort of addressed some of the shortcomings in his games.
13:36When he first came onto the scene at Sunderland, he was a real, real worry under a high ball from a corner kick or a free kick.
13:43He sorted that out. I think he commands his area really well.
13:46Yes, his distribution could be better, but he's a fantastic shot stopper.
13:49Could he have done better with Plymouth's winner?
13:51Yes, absolutely.
13:52Goalkeepers will make mistakes, though.
13:54He's not going to be perfect for a 46-game season.
13:58I don't really feel there's any need to sort of crucify him.
14:03There is, of course, a separate debate as to whether Sunderland have provided enough cover and competition for Anthony Patterson over the years.
14:09I think that's absolutely right that that debate is had.
14:13But generally, I'm more than happy for Anthony Patterson to be Sunderland's goalkeeper going forward.
14:20I don't think he gets an easy ride.
14:22I think he's very, very good.
14:25And we've been hearing that scouts from top Premier League clubs tend to agree as well.
14:29So, he's not perfect.
14:31None of Sunderland's players are.
14:32But for me, I think maybe just a bit of level-headedness needed about him.
14:37Yes, it's frustrating to lose against Plymouth.
14:39I completely get that.
14:40But he'll be aware of that mistake as well, and it's something he'll work on, I'm sure.
14:45And another big blow potentially, Phil, Dan Ballard obviously picking up an injury.
14:50Do we know anything about that at this stage?
14:54No, not at the moment.
14:56I think it's one where realistically he's going to have to go and get that seen by probably, I would have thought, a specialist.
15:02And so it might be one that we don't hear about until maybe the middle of the week, I think.
15:07So, you know, reluctant really to speculate too much because I don't think that would be right.
15:11You know, all I can say is, as I reported at the time, obviously he left the ground on crutches and with his boot and a brace, which I would suggest is not a great sign.
15:21He'd gone up front for the last few minutes of the game.
15:24Actually won his header, and I think he picked up the injury when he landed.
15:28So I don't know whether it's something to do with his ankle or what have you when he's landed, because he didn't actually get up in full-time whistle-blow straight after and he had to be carried off by two physios.
15:37So we'll just have to wait and see on that one.
15:39I think it would be fair to assume that he's going to be a pretty major doubt at this stage for the weekend's game.
15:45You know, Sunderland, thank God they were proactive and brought in Chris Metton on deadline day because otherwise, you know, I think the cover at centre half would be really, really, really light.
15:54So fingers crossed it's not too serious.
15:56But I think that Metton, I would imagine, would be on standby.
16:00And, you know, it's not ideal that, to be fair.
16:02I mean, listen, they brought a player of that calibre in and an experienced National and Premier League defender.
16:07You'd expect him to be able to cope with a local rivalry game in the Championship.
16:14But at the same time, it's clearly far from ideal.
16:16And it does leave Sunderland stretched as well, because all of a sudden, if, for example, we talked about the lack of cover at full-back, if he was to get an injury now,
16:23you know, hopefully he doesn't, but, you know, you could quite easily become stretched.
16:26So, yeah, that was definitely, I think there were two big negatives to Saturday's game.
16:31One was how many chances Plymouth were able to create.
16:34And the other was Ballard's injury, because it does look like there could be an issue there.
16:38So, yeah, we'll have to wait and see on that one.
16:41But clearly, it's not a great sign.
16:43I've just realised I've been saying that Paterson made an excellent save for Plymouth's second, but it was actually Plymouth's first, wasn't it?
16:49So, my apologies for that before I get pelters online.
16:53Yeah, and that's one of those where, you know, like, that is an unbelievable save from Paterson, like we're talking about, if that stays out, we're talking about saves.
17:02I thought he made one unbelievable save.
17:05He made two errors.
17:07I think one was his kick out straight in the opposition that led to the first goal.
17:11Obviously, he nearly made amends with that unbelievable save.
17:13And obviously, the third one, he could do a little bit better.
17:15But, you know, I think it is a team game ultimately.
17:18And Sunderland did give up too many chances in the second half.
17:22It's really interesting because it's something that we spoke about off the back of the first few games, which was, you know, obviously, it's been a great start for Sunderland.
17:29But it's going to be interesting when they play different kinds of opponents and they have to show something a little bit different.
17:33And what we probably did see on Saturday was that Sunderland had more possession than they've had at any stage of the season.
17:38And that meant that they were vulnerable to counter-attacks.
17:40I mean, that's kind of obvious, isn't it?
17:42When you have the ball, you know, you're getting players higher up the pitch, you're vulnerable when you turn it over.
17:46And we definitely did see that Plymouth were able to get a bit of joy when they won the ball back and they moved it quickly out wide.
17:51So, yeah, I think that was one of the reasons why Lebris was not getting in any way carried away after the first few games.
17:57And he certainly wasn't too downbeat after Saturday because he just said, this is part of the, you know, I knew this would happen at some stage.
18:04It's something to learn from, you know, and that's the key.
18:06Interesting to see on Saturday whether they're able to get back to that sort of really resilient structure, if you like, because something definitely went a bit awry on Saturday.
18:16Let's look ahead to Saturday.
18:18Obviously, Middlesbrough travel to the stadium, always a very interesting game.
18:22Not a game that's someone to have a particularly great record in in recent times.
18:27I mean, given the performance on Saturday, James, do you think that Regis Lebris will be considering changes?
18:34Obviously, that midfield, because of the options that he has available to him, is still a matter of some debate.
18:39Obviously, Dan Neil came back into the side against Plymouth.
18:43Do you think there'll be any temptation to chop and change there?
18:45How do you think he'll stick with what he's gone with in recent weeks?
18:50It is a very good and interesting question.
18:53I'd imagine he would keep Dan Neil in there because he's team captain.
18:58I think whether Brown comes in is a really interesting question, and I imagine it would be for Chris Rigg.
19:05Now, that's not a knock on Chris Rigg's performances at all, but, you know, local derby game against Middlesbrough do seem to need to protect him.
19:13The flip side to that is he's been playing so well that he might justify his inclusion in the team,
19:16but it is one of those tricky games where he is still so young and by the manner of his performances,
19:22I think we all forget how young he is at times because he does display a good level of maturity.
19:27But would Alan Brown, with all of his AFL experience, I think he's played, I think, 280, 300 times for Preston in the AFL.
19:36So he's got all of that experience that might just be wise to drop him in.
19:41I don't think he would replace Dan Neil. I don't think he would replace Joe Bellingham.
19:45So I think for me it would be Brown or Rigg.
19:47So I'm interested to see what happens there.
19:49And you'd expect Meppham to come in for his debut, wouldn't you, for the injured Ballard?
19:54As Phil mentioned, it's, you know, very good business at Sunderland to manage to get that over the line.
19:59Otherwise, I can't really see too many changes.
20:03I guess Isidor will be wanting to push to start at some point, but with the form of Romain Mundel.
20:09I know Maiander didn't score, but don't really think he did too much wrong against Plymouth.
20:14Argyle still kept making those runs.
20:16We know Lebris likes him.
20:18So I don't expect, you know, Regis Lebris to rip it up.
20:21He's been very, very level, even when Sunderland have won, hasn't he?
20:26He's been very sort of level-headed.
20:28I don't expect him to make rigging changes just because Sunderland have lost a game.
20:33And as I mentioned earlier, I actually saw that game against Plymouth maybe as a little bit of a mentality thing,
20:38rather than something massively tactical.
20:40I think there's an argument to say that maybe Lebris could have made his subs like five, ten minutes earlier.
20:44But to be honest, that's one of those arguments you're always going to say when you've lost a game, isn't it?
20:50Because you're looking at what we could have done different or what the manager could have done different.
20:54So I didn't feel that Wayne really sort of out-tacticed Lebris at all.
20:58So I'm sort of expecting just business as usual, really.
21:01But hopefully the players can sort of come out and put that consistency together over the 90 minutes,
21:07which they have shown, actually, for the most part this season.
21:10Obviously, different challenges with it being a local derby.
21:14It's going to be a massive crowd at the stadium and they'll have to get the grips of that.
21:17So it's interesting, a real interesting sort of test, actually, of this young side who we know can play good football.
21:24But can they do it against Middlesbrough in a sort of highly anticipated, highly charged game?
21:30It'll be really, really good to see how they perform.
21:34And obviously, all those options available to Lebris' film.
21:37And we've still got the likes of Milan, Aleksic and Salih Samed to come in to the squad.
21:43I mean, do you think Saturday is probably going to be a bit too soon for them to be sort of seriously considered for inclusion?
21:50Yeah, well, Lebris said on last Thursday that Samed wasn't in full training yet.
21:53So I think he's arrived with a very small injury.
21:56I mean, he said seven to 10 days last Thursday.
22:00So I think if you just, you know, the basic maths would suggest that he might be involved.
22:04But judging on that, if he hasn't started full training until potentially not even yet, maybe in the next few days,
22:11I think it's very difficult to see him being thrown straight in for a game against Middlesbrough.
22:14And I think that James is right.
22:16I actually don't think there's any need for sweeping changes.
22:18I genuinely don't.
22:20My gut tells me it might be a decent game for Brown to come in for Rigg.
22:23As James said, it's absolutely no knock on Rigg whatsoever.
22:26I just think we've seen it last year and it's important.
22:29We said it with Job, so we have to say the same with Rigg.
22:31You can't play 46 league games.
22:33So you've got to pick the right moments to maybe use them as an impact substitute.
22:37You know, if we said that Job was overplayed last year, well, Rigg's only, you know,
22:41he was pretty much the same age as Job was then.
22:43So I think it might be a bit of a decent opportunity to play Brown.
22:46I agree with James that the heat of that game, I think that might be one way you really see how,
22:50you know, what a valuable player Brown is and all his experience.
22:54Mienda for me, Isidore might start, but I think Mienda deserves another chance.
22:58I don't think he was poor on Saturday.
23:00I think that the out-of-possession stuff he does is really good.
23:02I'd be amazed if against a team of Middlesbrough's quality,
23:05La Brice wanted to change that.
23:06So I don't see changes other than possibly Brown maybe met them.
23:10I'd be surprised if there was too much more on that.
23:12I think Oleksiić, you know, we have to stress, Oleksiić only actually really arrived at Sunderland
23:17a couple of days before the Plymouth game because he's been on international duty for Serbia.
23:21So he's barely had any.
23:22This will be his first full week of training.
23:24We know that of the players who signed, he's English understandably
23:27because he's a young lad from Serbia.
23:29His English is not where some of the other players are.
23:31So I think that's going to be more of a,
23:34he is, for me, he is definitely going to be an impact substitute for a while.
23:37I think La Brice will be really careful in picking and choosing his moments to introduce him.
23:41So, you know, I think there'll be one, there'll definitely be one change,
23:44I think possibly two, but I don't see it as the,
23:48I don't see this as the game where you make changes.
23:50If you actually start to look towards October, you know,
23:52suddenly they're having a lot more sort of choose the victories and what have you.
23:56That's when we're going to, I think, see the likes of Isidor and Samed starting a bit more regularly.
24:00And then obviously it will be up to them to keep that church.
24:02But I think it will be not far off as you were on Saturday.
24:05And for me, like rightly so, like the players have had five games,
24:08they've played brilliantly in four of them.
24:11They've played not dreadfully in one and lost it.
24:13And I think they deserve, by and large, another chance to come put that right.
24:17Like I say, me suggesting brown players is no knock on rig.
24:20I just think that that's a, sometimes you've got to take the long view.
24:23I think we've seen that with these young players.
24:26I mean, on the basis of that then, is Saturday as much a sort of test of Sunderland's mentality
24:32as it is their quality in the pitch, their ability to bounce back from a bit of a bump in the road?
24:37I think there's an element of that.
24:38I also think Middlesbrough might be the strongest opponent they've faced yet.
24:41I think that's another thing I would say, and that the table might not suggest that at the moment.
24:45But, you know, if you look at the teams that have played so far,
24:48Burnley would clearly be the strongest team.
24:51But as we talked about at the time, there was a lot going on there
24:53in terms of where they were at in the transfer window.
24:56That, I think, was a little bit of a caveat to that.
24:58Middlesbrough, I think everyone expects them to be up there this season.
25:01They're not far off the playoffs.
25:02They've got real stability.
25:04Even the games that they haven't won this season,
25:06they've probably been fairly dominant, I think, for large parts of it.
25:09So I agree with you.
25:10It's definitely a test of that mentality and that,
25:13ensuring that they don't knock their confidence.
25:15But my personal, my gut instinct at the moment is this is going to be the best football team
25:20that Sunderland have played so far this season.
25:21And I think it's going to be really, really interesting
25:24to see how they kind of cope with that test.
25:27Middlesbrough have only lost once this season as well,
25:29conceded the same amount of goals as us four.
25:31So it's not like they're, you know, yes, they've drawn two games as opposed to us.
25:37We've won those fixtures, but it's not like they've been hammered or anything like that.
25:42I think I agree with Philip.
25:43You know, Carrick's had them playing well for a long time now.
25:47It will be a massive test.
25:51OK, I think that's probably all we've got time for this week,
25:54lads, keep it short and sweet.
25:56Thank you for listening along at home.
25:58We'll be back next week with the RAW, plenty of reaction to that Middlesbrough game.
26:02Obviously, for everything Sunderland in the days between,
26:05you can keep up with the Echo.
26:07We'll be at the match on Saturday, all of the post-match, all of the reaction to that.
26:11But in the meantime, see you soon.