Analysis as Chris Rigg's magic settles Sunderland vs Middlesbrough clash
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sutherland Echo.
00:25My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Cotby and Phil Smith, got plenty to be discussing
00:31on this Monday afternoon.
00:33I think one thing that none of us were necessarily expecting to be discussing at this point in
00:38the season is some potential transfer business.
00:41However, it is understood that Sutherland are closing in on an agreement with free agent
00:46striker Aaron Connolly, first reported by Roker Report this morning.
00:52It's something that we've discussed on the podcast before, isn't it, Phil, the potential
00:55for Sutherland to dip into that free agent market.
00:58We sort of suggest that it might not be the most usual thing for them to do, but it would
01:02appear that there's maybe been a bit of a change in stance and it looks like a deal
01:07that Sutherland are trying to get over the line.
01:09Yeah, I think we're at the stage now where this is more likely than unlikely.
01:13Yeah, it's really interesting, as you say, it's highly unusual for Sutherland to do this,
01:19mainly because the reality of signing a free agent outside the transfer window is that
01:23they've not had a pre-season and therefore you're realistically looking at a period of
01:27at least a month where any player is potentially able to impact the team on a consistent basis.
01:34I suppose where Aaron Connolly maybe differs from his standard free agent is where he probably
01:41slightly differs is that there is a potential for this to be more of a long-term signing
01:46for Sutherland.
01:47Clearly the age he's at, the stage he's at in his career, I think it's a little bit of
01:51a calculated risk in that it's a young player who clearly hasn't delivered on the potential
01:56he showed when he first broke through at Brighton, but he has a reasonable amount of championship
02:00experience.
02:01His goal-scoring record at Hull, which was his last club, is decent, is very decent really.
02:08I think we can take some encouragement and I suppose some excitement from this in that
02:12it's a deal that Sutherland didn't have to do.
02:14They've got enough players to get through to January, but it's an ambitious move and
02:19I think that it's a sign that they believe they can really have a go this season.
02:23I think what is interesting is the implications it has, which I'm sure we'll get to later
02:26in the podcast, for the rest of the squad because it's not a small squad.
02:30It feels like it a bit at the moment because at the moment there's a few players who aren't
02:34fit, but actually this is a pretty big squad already and there's a lot of implications
02:38I think of this deal.
02:39So I'm very encouraged to see Sutherland trying to add more experience to the group,
02:43strengthening up front, giving LaBriece another option, but yeah for sure it's certainly surprising
02:48because they've tended to avoid signing players outside the transfer window for a very obvious
02:52reason.
02:53So, while there are reasons for it, it's a big departure from what we're used to.
02:58James, I mean, what do you make of all of this?
03:03Because Aaron Connolly, as Phil sort of alluded to, a player who broke through at Brighton,
03:07had a huge amount of potential.
03:09He's still only 24, he maybe hasn't lit the world alight, but he has scored goals fairly
03:15consistently.
03:16I think last season it was something like 8 in 28 for Hull, but when you actually break
03:20that down it was like 8 in 13 starts, which is obviously a much more impressive return
03:24really.
03:25So, I mean, is this a deal that you're sort of pleased to see Sutherland pursuing?
03:30I think it makes a lot of sense when you look at what Sutherland have done before.
03:34Obviously there were different ages when they actually signed for the club than Aaron Connolly
03:37is now, but Patrick Roberts, Jack Clarke, they needed a bit of a career reboot.
03:41You look at Jan Perveda as well, who signed earlier in the summer, he's after a similar
03:47spark in his career.
03:48So, I think it makes sense.
03:49Phil mentioned there the profile of the player, he's only 24, championship experience, he's
03:54scored goals in the league as well.
03:55My head has done extremely well, I think, since coming in.
03:58Obviously he didn't score against Borough, but still put himself around, makes the right
04:01runs.
04:02But over the course of a championship season, I think you are going to need a little bit
04:07more of a proven goal scorer.
04:09I think cover and competition is always really important and I think perhaps it shows maybe
04:13that Sutherland are starting to learn a little bit.
04:15We've talked a lot over recent seasons about depth that first season in the championship.
04:21Sutherland were hit really hard towards the end with injuries and arguably there were
04:25a couple of injuries away from, you know, taking it to Luton Town in that second leg.
04:31They were decimated, really.
04:32I don't think they had either first choice centre-back.
04:37So yeah, I think having a more robust squad is definitely something that Sutherland have
04:42needed to do.
04:43I'm pleased that there's been action taken on that and, you know, look at Sutherland
04:47promotion teams from seasons gone by and they had sort of goals from everywhere, didn't
04:51they?
04:52Just thinking of that Keane season when we got promoted from the championship, there
04:57were like three or four players that could score goals, Dwight York, Aaron Connolly,
05:02Anthony Stokes, Carlos Edwards.
05:05There's probably more I'm forgetting as well.
05:07So I think it's always good to have options and I think it's actually shown a bit of ambition
05:11in the sense that Sutherland maybe want to go and attack the championship a little better
05:15than they did last year.
05:17I think it's positive, to be honest, I'm quite pleased to see it's going through.
05:21It's a little bit of a change of departure that we haven't really seen Sutherland target
05:24the free agent market, but I think where there's value there, I think Sutherland should definitely
05:28go for it.
05:30It does feel like, you know, you're talking about the free agent market, there's not necessarily
05:34always the greatest amount of depth in there, but it's felt for a few weeks now that if
05:39Sutherland were going to go and pursue a player who was sort of the right profile, has played
05:44in the league before, certainly in the right position as well, you know, we've spoken endlessly
05:48about the search for a striker, then Connolly was kind of like the standout name, I think
05:53it's fair to say.
05:54Obviously, Phil, the other thing is, as you already mentioned briefly, the sort of implications
05:59that this will have for other members of Regis Labrista's squad.
06:03I mean, at least Mayend has been the start and striker and has performed really well.
06:07I think we're all in agreement that over the first six games of the season, but obviously
06:11Wilson Isidor came in over the summer, Ahmed Abdullahi used to come back from injury as
06:16well, Nazrousan's out there on the periphery.
06:19I mean, what do you think it means for those players now that, you know, if Connolly does
06:23come over there, get over the line, if he does come in the next day or two?
06:27Yeah, I mean, I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised in that, like, obviously we know
06:31that certainly with Abdullahi, like, he was not being signed as a, you know, a player
06:36to sort of play on day one.
06:37Sunderland knew that he had this potential groin issue.
06:40Obviously, we didn't know that for a week or so after, but it was very obvious that
06:44that was just a little bit like Mundell in January.
06:47There was a deal that had to be done that they weren't expecting and, you know, it was
06:51on the right financial terms, so they went and did it rather than saying, you know, this
06:55is the player we need for Labrista's team now.
06:58So, I think we know that they were trying to sign other strikers towards the end of
07:02the day that they weren't able to do.
07:04So, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised in that, you know, there clearly already were
07:07signs that they felt they could do with another player in that position.
07:10And I think, as you mentioned there, Connolly clearly of the free agents was the standout
07:15name. You know, one of the reasons I mentioned the fitness thing, which I think is a big
07:18part of it, you know, when Sunderland have always opted against signing free agents in
07:22the past is, you know, they always say it's not about, they would rather, you know, put
07:26their faith in a young player or, first and foremost, any player has to be able to play
07:29at the level physically and technically that they think, you know, is required to succeed.
07:36So I think that, in some ways, there were already some hints that the likes of Roosen
07:40in particular, maybe Labrista wasn't entirely sure about.
07:44I think, you know, despite the fact that Aushijin Bha played 90 minutes and scored for the U21s
07:50yesterday, I think this is another sign that they're not a big part of the plans at the
07:53moment.
07:54Obviously Connolly doesn't play in the same position as Aushijin Bha, but I'm talking
07:58about, you know, the fact that you've got nine players on the bench.
08:00We have Perveda, who we expect to be back at the weekend.
08:03Sunderland signed him in the summer.
08:04He's going to be involved.
08:05You know, Abdullahi to come back towards Christmas, you know, Brown to come back into the mix
08:09as well.
08:10So, Salis Abdel Samad, who's not even been on the bench yet.
08:13I think we're beginning to see that, you know, Labrista has been quite ruthless, hasn't he,
08:17since he came in.
08:18That's one of the things we've spoken about.
08:19He's been really sort of clear in his decision making.
08:21And so I think this is a sign that I think a few players are going to find it really
08:24difficult to get regular minutes here.
08:26I think Reissan's the big one.
08:27I think Isidor's flexibility means that he's probably going to be quite an important player
08:31for Labris.
08:33I am surprised because I felt like the level that Miendo is playing at and the praise that
08:39Labris has given him, even in the games where he didn't score, I thought that they might
08:42just wait till January to reassess then, and they've decided to be a bit opportunistic.
08:46But I definitely think this has fairly significant implications for Reissan, who hasn't played
08:49much recently.
08:51And certainly, Aushish and Barol or Labris, you know, does keep saying the door's open.
08:54I think it's very, very difficult to see a scenario now just because of the sheer competition
08:58from places where they're regularly in the matchday squad.
09:03I suppose, obviously, looking ahead to January now, that there is a version of events where
09:07Sunderland don't feel the need to go and sign a striker because Connolly does come in, because
09:12Abdullahi comes back from injury, you know, if they perform the way that Sunderland would
09:16like them to perform.
09:17And it sort of then raises some interesting questions about where, if anywhere, Sunderland
09:22would look to target in the window window.
09:25Fullback for me, I'm sure Phil would agree with that.
09:28I think that's the one position on either side that I look at and think it's a little
09:32bit light. Obviously, you have the option of O-9, who has actually played left-back
09:36and right-back during his Sunderland career.
09:38Say, if we had Ballard and Mepham fit or Ballard and Alesi fit.
09:41Alesi's obviously played on the left before as well, but I just think behind Sunderland's
09:46top-quality centre-backs, to be fair, obviously Trahume and Dennis Sergen, there isn't a
09:50great deal. Jensen Sealt coming back from injury, deputised there last season, but it's
09:54going to be a long time until he's ready to go well into the new year.
09:58So don't really expect him to play that much of a significant part.
10:01It's a similar story for Huggins as well.
10:03Obviously, you don't know how they're going to recover from these injuries, but there
10:05were two pretty bad ones, I think.
10:08You know, Jefferson Bennett's playing as a left-back for the under-21s.
10:12Is he going to be an option in the Championship?
10:14Probably not.
10:15I don't think anybody would sort of bet on that happening.
10:17So I think that's the position for me going into January on either side, really.
10:22Although Sunderland do have some sort of internal solutions.
10:24I think, you know, good quality backup and succession planning as well, because I actually
10:29think if Hughman and Sergen continue on the trajectory, stayed injury-free as well, that
10:35they could be highly sought after.
10:36So a bit of a sort of Romain Mundell, Jack Clarke succession planning wouldn't go missing
10:41that position.
10:41But as we know, it's quite difficult to do some of these deals in January at times because
10:47the cost can be quite inflated.
10:49But saying that, you can pick up good players.
10:50We picked up Mundell in January, which looks a bit of business now.
10:54So, yeah, really interesting.
10:55But I think left and right-back for me would be the position, other than Stryker.
11:00But that's before Connolly comes in.
11:03And the one name we haven't mentioned as well, Phil, Trey Ogunsui, obviously under-21
11:08Stryker, who's been named in the matchday squad for the past couple of weeks.
11:12And obviously, we've seen him play a couple of times in recent weeks, James, and have
11:15been hugely impressed with his output at a youth level.
11:18I mean, probably he will, you would assume, just sort of sit around the under-21s now,
11:23maybe a little bit less first-team involvement.
11:25And maybe that's not the worst thing in the world for his development as well.
11:29Yeah, I think so.
11:30I asked Lebris about him last Thursday at the press conference, just because it felt timely
11:33with him being on the bench, obviously at Plymouth, and then again the other day.
11:36And I think Lebris made pretty clear that he rates him, but it was about giving him,
11:41there was an opportunity there to sort of give him that taste of a first-team matchday,
11:46of the experience of being around the first-team group, rather than realistically him being
11:50on the bench to come on.
11:51So I think that, you know, you're right, Ogunsui hasn't actually yet played a huge amount
11:55of under-21s football.
11:57And I think that's sort of the natural next step for him, is to play sort of week in,
12:00week out at that level.
12:02I think he's a hugely talented player.
12:04As you mentioned, I think he is really, really gifted.
12:07You know, you've mentioned the games where Yuson was impressed.
12:10I thought he changed the game against Bilbao when he came on.
12:12Something that obviously started well, but Bilbao were completely on top when he came on.
12:17And just his first touch, his physicality, his energy, really turned the game.
12:21I do think he is an incredibly exciting prospect that fans should be really excited by.
12:27But I think it's fairly clear that he's been on the bench as an exposure, if you like,
12:31as an experience thing, rather than necessarily being seen at this stage as a game-changing option.
12:37So I do think what we'll see is he'll probably drop out over the next few weeks and start
12:41playing more regularly in the under-21s.
12:43But, you know, certainly no criticism of him.
12:45I think someone just saw an opportunity while they were in this limbo, if you like, with
12:49injuries and what have you.
12:51It was a really good time to sort of give him a little bit of an exposure to that environment,
12:54which, if you remember, is exactly what happened with Chris Rigg.
12:57He travelled with the first-team squad a couple of times before he eventually made his debut
13:02at Shrewsbury in the FA Cup.
13:03So I think that's a fairly sort of natural progression, if you like.
13:09You mentioned Chris Rigg there.
13:11Should we talk about Middlesbrough?
13:12Obviously, a huge win for Sunderland, a return to winning ways for Sunderland on Saturday
13:17lunchtime after that late disappointment against Plymouth the week prior.
13:21I mean, how important, James, was it that Sunderland regained some of the momentum that
13:26they maybe lost on the south coast?
13:29Hugely important, I think, against Middlesbrough at the Stadium of Light.
13:31You know, it's a big game, potential banana skin.
13:34I think it shows a good mentality within the group, really, doesn't it, to lose at Plymouth
13:39and to bounce back so quickly.
13:42As I said, against Plymouth, I didn't feel like it was sort of panic stations.
13:45I didn't think Sunderland had been cut wide open.
13:47We had a fair amount of bad lookout, I would suggest, as well.
13:51I didn't look at it and think Lebris' game plan needed sort of ripping up.
13:54I think he agreed, sort of just got them driven and training during the week, maybe reaffirmed
14:00some of his ideas and his plans and it paid dividends.
14:04I think what's really interesting about Sunderland is they're quite happy not to have the ball
14:07at the moment, yet they never really look troubled, to be honest.
14:10I know Middlesbrough hit the bar with that Conway header, but other than that, I'm struggling.
14:15I think I was having this discussion, actually, with Michael Loft after the game from the
14:19Wise Men Say podcast.
14:21When you're live watching the game in Middlesbrough across the halfway line, as a fan, you're
14:24sort of conditioned to think, oh God, Middlesbrough are on the attack, this could spell danger
14:29because that's just what being a football fan is like.
14:32But when you actually watch the highlights back, watch the full game back,
14:36Middlesbrough aren't really doing a lot.
14:38They're not penetrating.
14:38They're not creating loads of chances.
14:40They had a couple of moments, but I never, watching the game back, didn't really feel
14:44that Sunderland were threatened very often.
14:47There's obviously a couple of decisions as well.
14:48I mean, it's marginal whether Hulme should be on the pitch, perhaps.
14:53I've heard a lot of contrasting opinions.
14:55It's one of those that's maybe halfway between a yellow and halfway between a red.
15:00So, you get some of those given for you, you get some of those given against you.
15:05But Sunderland probably should have had a penalty against Mundell as well.
15:08So, although Michael Carrick, I think, was a bit miffed after the game, I genuinely thought
15:13during it, it sort of balanced itself out, to be honest.
15:15And I think Sunderland were well worthy of the win in the end.
15:18I thought they controlled the game without having as much of the ball as Middlesbrough,
15:24if that made sense.
15:25And that sort of seems to have become a little bit of an MO under Regis Le Brie.
15:30And yeah, Chris Rigg, I mean, blimey, what a finisher, what a player.
15:33And Joe Bellingham as well, that we mentioned a lot.
15:36I think he turned 19 today, actually.
15:37It's just silly, silly how good those two are.
15:40And Dan Neal, the self-proclaimed old man in midfield at 23 years old.
15:45It's a hugely exciting time, in my opinion, for Sunderland fans at the moment.
15:52Absolutely.
15:53I mean, there is so much to sort of dive into in more depth there.
15:57We'll talk about the Trey Hulme, well, non-red card decision first, Phil.
16:02It was one of those, wasn't it?
16:03I sort of hate the cliche of it, but it felt like an orange card.
16:07It was, you know, you've seen them given and you've seen players get away with them on
16:10the day as well.
16:11Yeah, at the time, it just felt like a yellow card, watching it live.
16:15And then people who'd obviously seen the replay on social media suggested he'd been really
16:18fortunate.
16:19When you watched it back, did I think it was like an obvious red card?
16:22I wasn't totally convinced myself.
16:24Having said that, if you'd been given red, would you be watching it back saying it's
16:27an absolute howler?
16:28I don't think you would have done.
16:30So, I don't know.
16:31It's one of those things.
16:32I think it could have been given.
16:33I think he was fortunate.
16:35And there was obviously a rash challenge that could have had, you know, that could have
16:38cost him.
16:38And so, I think he has got away with it.
16:40But, you know, I don't think it was a complete howler.
16:43I thought, generally speaking, the referee was fairly poor.
16:45Constantine, who's a Premier League referee, dropped in.
16:48I thought the officiating, generally speaking, was very inconsistent, certainly in the yellow
16:52cards.
16:52And that's for both teams, by the way, not just Sunderland.
16:54And, you know, maybe, you know, we always say, like, you know, it's the biggest myth
16:58in football, that these things even themselves out because it just doesn't work like that.
17:01But, you know, last year, Sunderland lost this game because they didn't have the right
17:06Sunderland lost this game because of a fairly nonsensical red card, I would suggest, to
17:10Dan Neil.
17:11So, maybe they were due a bit of luck.
17:13And, you know, I certainly think as well, you know, again, maybe it wasn't an absolute
17:17stonewall, but I think Mundell should have had a penalty.
17:20I thought that was a trip and a push from Aylen.
17:23From behind, never any realistic chance of getting the ball.
17:26You know, and at that point, Sunderland could have put the game to bed if that decision
17:29was given.
17:29So, I don't think it was an atrocious decision, personally, albeit I think that Hulme did
17:35get away with one.
17:36But I thought, you know, I think it's obvious, you know, the opposition manager, certainly
17:41after defeat, is also always going to focus on the referee.
17:44I think that Sunderland deserved it.
17:45I thought the first half there was basically nothing in it.
17:47I think it could have gone either way.
17:48I thought both teams looked dangerous when they counted and not particularly dangerous
17:52when they had the ball for long spells.
17:54And there were lots of moments where it could have gone either way.
17:56Obviously, Lattelaffe had that little thing that went just over the bar.
17:59Conway should have scored with that header.
18:01But the second half, I thought Sunderland had complete control without the ball.
18:05I don't know.
18:05I never really felt threatened.
18:07The only way you felt Sunderland were going to score is if a third yarder flew in the
18:11top corner or if there was a deflection or something like that.
18:15You know, and I think that's borne out of the fact that, you know, when I was taking
18:17a closer look at my analysis on Sunday, they only had two shots from inside the box the
18:22entire second half, you know, and that was them chasing the game.
18:25So, I do think Sunderland deserved the win, given the fact that they led for so long and
18:29were able to limit Middlesbrough so much.
18:31And that was the most encouraging thing, because we worried after the Plymouth game that maybe
18:34Plymouth had found some ways to expose what had been a really good defence previously.
18:39So, for Sunderland to get back so quickly to doing well what they'd been doing, you
18:43know, against a very good opponent, I think is hugely encouraging.
18:48So, yeah, maybe a little bit of fortune early on.
18:50But for me, over the course of 90 minutes, I thought Sunderland just about deserved the
18:53win, given how strong I think Middlesbrough are.
18:56And I think that's a really exciting sign moving forward.
18:59Just on Hulme again as well, I don't think it should work like this, but I think it probably
19:04counted in his favour that it was early on in the game as well, I think, had it been
19:07a little bit later.
19:08It shouldn't work like that, because if, you know, if it's bordering on a red, then it's
19:11bordering on a red, it should be given as a red.
19:13But because it was so early, I wonder if the referee sort of made him think twice about
19:17it.
19:18Phil raises a good point about Premier League referees dropping down, though.
19:21I always find it annoying when the Premier League referees are parachuted into a big
19:25game in the Championship, because the threshold of fouls, it's just different.
19:29The games flow differently, the referee differently in the EFL, particularly from the
19:33Championship to the Premier League.
19:34It's such a big jump that I always feel like these Premier League referees that are
19:38parachuted in just struggle with the consistency of decision-making, because it's
19:42different to what they used to.
19:43And I think we definitely saw that Sunderland versus Middlesbrough, and it was pretty poor
19:47for both sides.
19:49Well, it was Jared Gillett last year, wasn't it, who took charge of this fixture at the
19:54time last year.
19:54And obviously he, like you say, Phil, gave Dan Neil that fairly contentious record.
19:58It does seem to rear its head quite a lot, doesn't it?
20:02Chris Rigg, you know, we're journalists.
20:05We try not to be too hyperbolic about these things.
20:07But how special is this boy?
20:12I think he can be anything.
20:15I think that's obvious now at this stage.
20:16I think that we are now at the point where it's just the raw facts of how good is he,
20:22well, how many players of his age are playing this regularly with this kind of output at
20:26this standard of football?
20:28And the answer is a tiny, tiny handful.
20:31I think that Rigg can pretty much be anything he wants to be, because at the moment, well,
20:36there are no obvious flaws in his game.
20:38Physically, he can look after himself already at this level.
20:42He doesn't seem to tire, so his athleticism is really good, and his technical quality
20:46is very, very good.
20:49He can be anything.
20:51It's going to be up to him now.
20:52It's as simple as that.
20:53And I think one of the most exciting things about Rigg is that nobody gives you any indication
20:58who actually knows him and spends time with him.
21:01Then they have any concerns about his ability to stay grounded, to keep his feet on the
21:04floor, to keep improving.
21:06It's one of the first things everyone mentions about him.
21:08I really like Lebris' quote in the press conference afterwards where he said, you know,
21:12he doesn't think too much about the age, because you can be 30 and immature, or you can be
21:1617 and mature.
21:17You know, age doesn't always equal maturity.
21:20And I think it's so true in Rigg's case.
21:22I think, you know, I think you're absolutely right, Jase.
21:25I think it's not being hyperbolic.
21:27I think it's just a fact that this guy can play at the top level.
21:31But of course, the only sort of caution to that is we're six games into the season, you
21:36know, and part of the journey that he's going to go on is learning how to deliver week in,
21:41week out over a 46-game season.
21:44We haven't yet had a league midweek fixture, so that's going to be a new challenge for
21:49him when he's got the Tuesday game as well.
21:51And I say that not as a downer.
21:53I just say it's the same with Mundell, is that I anticipate there'll be a point in the
21:56season where maybe we go, he's probably not quite where he was right at the start of the
22:01season, or maybe he's not at his best form.
22:03And I think that, you know, it's important not to get carried away with that either when
22:08that happens.
22:09But in answer to your question, I don't think there's any element of hyperbole.
22:13I think we're talking about potential Champions League footballer in the future if he sort
22:17of can keep his feet on the ground and keep improving.
22:19I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that he's got both the technical ability and
22:23the physicality to go and play at that level.
22:25It's incredibly exciting.
22:26And I mentioned it on our on the whistle with James after the game.
22:29I do think that maybe in 10 years' time, we'll sort of laugh that we were watching, you know,
22:35this Joe, Rick, Neil triangle, you know, a championship level.
22:40I think we might look back and wonder how on earth that happened, because I think the
22:44talent in the three of them is scary.
22:46It's going to be interesting, obviously, moving forward, just to move on a little bit in
22:49terms of when Salih Abdul-Samad's fit as well, because I think there is an argument
22:53that now that Samad are playing just with one holder midfielder very much rather than
22:58two, you know, is that role perfect for Neil or might we get a bit more out of him pushing
23:03him further forward when Samad's fit?
23:05I think it's really exciting that there are these combinations, you know, when Brown comes
23:08back as well.
23:09That's a position that we felt was maybe a bit of a weakness last season that now feels
23:12like arguably some of the strongest position on the pitch.
23:16And, you know, given how long the season is, I think that's really, really exciting.
23:22I think you're absolutely right.
23:23We feel so stacked in the middle of the park, and I think part of that, James, as well,
23:27is Joe Bellingham, isn't it?
23:29I mean, I know he was your man of the match on Saturday, Phil.
23:33It's not necessarily that he wasn't playing well last season, but he seems to have come
23:38on leaps and bounds over the summer, doesn't he?
23:41He has, and I think it's testament to him that he set such a high bar for himself anyway,
23:49that, yes, he's had praise for his performances, but it's not really a surprise anymore.
23:54I think that's really testament to the levels he's set at such a young age.
23:57Obviously, we've seen him as a 17-year-old, you know, all the way through to his 18th
24:02and 19th birthday, and it's almost just, it's not a shock anymore that Joe Bellingham's
24:07good at football.
24:08And I think what's really pleased me, we saw quality, obviously.
24:11He netted goals last season, important goals, too, against Rotherham.
24:14Springs to mind, he got that one against Plymouth, which was quality.
24:17You know, he's shown technical ability.
24:19For me, it's the mentality.
24:20It was the desire in the middle, playing as that number eight role against Middlesbrough.
24:24He was getting stuck into anything.
24:26He was using his body really, really well.
24:28It was across everything.
24:30He was sort of doing those doggies, that defensive work, and that, for me, is really pleasing,
24:35especially when you consider Rigg into that as well.
24:38Rigg does that.
24:38Dan Neil does that.
24:39They all, and you could throw Romain Mundel in there as well, actually.
24:42They all understand the defensive side of the game at such a young age, which is hugely,
24:47hugely important.
24:48And I think, actually, when you talk about these young players, that's what will actually
24:52set them apart, is that they are really technically talented and able, but they also understand
24:58their role on a football field as well, and that they can't be passengers, and they do
25:02come back, and they do work for the team.
25:03And just on the Chris Rigg point earlier, I'm not sure I've seen a better 17-year-old
25:09player for Sunderland.
25:09If you look at the headline names through Sunderland's academy over the years, like
25:14Jordan Henderson, probably at a similar level to Chris Rigg when he was 17, although he
25:19didn't break through for Sunderland until a little bit later, but that's because Sunderland
25:23were in the Premier League.
25:24I think he's the only really comparable player.
25:27Obviously, Jordan Pickford, in a different position, didn't see him a little bit until
25:31later.
25:32Mickie Gray is obviously a player who came on through Sunderland's academy and had a
25:37tremendous career.
25:37We've had a lot of good footballers come through Sunderland's academy and had really, really
25:42good careers, but I'm not sure that anybody's ever come through at Sunderland at 17 and
25:47been this good.
25:47I think he's ridiculous at the moment.
25:54And another man who made his debut at the weekend, obviously quite a bit more experienced
25:58than Chris Rigg, but nonetheless, very, very effective.
26:01Chris Metham.
26:02I mean, coming in, that's because Dan Bollard didn't train the whole week, Phil, but it
26:06looked like he'd been there for weeks, months, years, even.
26:11It was exactly what you hope from an experienced Premier League central defender that you're
26:16breaking on loan.
26:18I thought he was really, really, really good.
26:22It's almost like the biggest compliment you can pay a centre-half, isn't it?
26:25Most of the time you don't really notice they're there, just made simple but effective
26:29decisions in possession, always seemed to be in the right place to sort of snuff out
26:33crosses or shepherd the ball when there was a ball over the top.
26:37I thought it was a seriously impressive debut.
26:40I think it was one of the most complete debuts I've seen for quite a while, to be honest.
26:45I was so encouraged by his performance and I think, again, it gives me encouragement
26:50that Sunderland were prepared to do that deal, similar with Alan Brown.
26:53Maybe something a little bit different to what we've seen from him in the past.
26:57I think it's really exciting and I think realistically it's huge.
27:00I think that Bollard, I think, is a future Premier League player.
27:03I think he's been amazing for Sunderland since he signed and I think that now, he now
27:10knows that he might not play on Saturday and that when he next comes back on the team,
27:13he has to be eight, nine, out of ten, otherwise he might lose his place again.
27:17So, I think that it's a really exciting signing in its own way and I thought it was an
27:22excellent debut and I just feel like, again, we talked about Sunderland midfield there.
27:26I know that with Alissa injured, Sunderland don't have loads of depth at centre-half,
27:30but they do have when people are fit and hopefully Alissa will be back in November.
27:34For me, four top-end Championship Central defensive options competing for two,
27:39possibly three places.
27:40I just think it's a really, really healthy place to be.
27:43I think you're always looking at the stage of the season to see whether what you're doing
27:47is sustainable and I think that naturally there will be a dip for Sunderland at some
27:52stage.
27:52There's going to be a point where teams work them out a little bit and they have to find
27:55some nuances.
27:55There might be a point where some young players dip.
27:58I think we have to be prepared for that and not get sort of overreact when that happens,
28:02but I think the depth in the squad generally is much, much better than it has been in recent
28:07times and I think that gives me excitement when these mid-week games start, Sunderland
28:11might be in a better position.
28:12I know that sounds a bit odd at the moment when you've got academy players on the bench,
28:16but when you actually think about where the squad could be in three, four weeks' time,
28:20I think it is quite exciting and that's ultimately when Sunderland are going to need those players,
28:25when those mid-week games, when you've got Derby on a Tuesday night, which we saw last
28:28year.
28:29Remember when we lost to Huddersfield as Pomo re-went, we lost to Rotherham in mid-week,
28:33lost to Waite, Huddersfield in mid-week.
28:35That is really when you have to show some steel and show some depth and I feel like
28:40we're getting slowly to a point, albeit there's a couple of positions where it's not the case,
28:44full-back being one, where one injury or one player dipping their form doesn't feel like
28:49it's going to be the end of the world for Sunderland and that's what we've all been
28:52sort of hoping for for a while now.
28:55I'll throw this question to both of you, but I asked it on social media earlier, when the
28:59four centre-backs are fit, Ballard, Alessi, O'Neill and Mepham, we've obviously seen a
29:04fair bit of Alessi now at centre-back, Mepham we've only seen one game, but what is Sunderland's
29:09strongest centre-back pairing?
29:10I think it's hard to come up with a definitive answer.
29:14I honestly couldn't, I couldn't answer that question, I genuinely couldn't and I think
29:18that's a really good position to be in.
29:21I think that at the start of the year I wouldn't have put Alessi in that category because we
29:25hadn't seen much of him at centre-half.
29:27I thought by the time he got injured he was playing really, really well and after a couple
29:31of games to find his feet I thought he looked like he was showing a lot of promise.
29:36I think that it's always tempting, this thing with 0-9 where we almost sort of go, well
29:41he's not really a centre-half and oh well, I think the reality is that he always improves
29:45and to be honest it wouldn't be a huge surprise to see him improve again now that there's
29:49competition.
29:49I just think it's really hard to pick a Sunderland team without Luke 0-9 in it.
29:53It's not something I would be doing, so for me 0-9, I still think he's one of the first
29:57names on the team sheet.
29:58But I think the nice thing is there's variety there as well, very different kinds of centre-halves.
30:03Ballard brings a level of physicality and aerial dominance that I don't think anybody
30:08else does and there's certain games where that's going to be absolutely crucial and
30:12I think that's a nice thing.
30:13I think Lebris has been hinting really from day one that generally speaking he's going
30:17to be a lot like Alex Neil.
30:19He's not one of those who don't change a winning team or he will look at every single
30:23game on its own merits and pick the players that he thinks are best for the game.
30:27We haven't really seen that from him so far because I don't think he's had the options
30:30because of injury and fitness and what have you.
30:32He's pretty much had to stick with a set of 11 but I do think he's going to, as the
30:36season goes on, he's going to tinker and it might be the case that someone plays really
30:40well and drops out the next game.
30:42I do think that's going to be the theme.
30:44I think we'll see a lot more rotation from him moving forward.
30:48Yeah, I would fully echo that.
30:50I mean, I doubt that thought to be fair.
30:55Whoever was to be left out, you'd feel a little bit indignant for them, wouldn't you?
30:59Because all four of them, I know Ballard obviously had a couple of difficult moments against
31:05Plymouth but all four of them have shown their merits already this season.
31:10Again, it's another cliché and I'm not huge on clichés but it's a nice headache
31:15for Regis Labrista to have, knowing that he has those four players.
31:19When they're all fully fit, obviously, like you say, at least it's going to be a little
31:21while longer now, but when they're all fully fit and he is picking two out of the four,
31:28it's a far cry from the days of Sunderland, just desperately trying to cobble together
31:32a back four, isn't it?
31:33You mentioned that second leg, James, and there wasn't a single player over six foot
31:38on the pitch, was there?
31:39No, there wasn't and it's mad as well because coming into the season, had you said that
31:46some Sunderland fans would have Ballard as potentially third choice behind two other
31:50centre-backs, you'd have thought, how in the world has that happened?
31:53But at the moment, in the minds of Sunderland fans, I'm not saying it's right or wrong and
31:57obviously you need rest of rotation, but at the moment, Ballard's third choice.
32:02Well, I guess that is the question, isn't it?
32:04Because looking in the immediate short term at the Watford game, would you stick with
32:10Mepham and 0-9?
32:11Would you leave Ballard on the bench for that game or would you reintroduce him?
32:15I think from what I saw at the weekend, I would be loathe to change it.
32:19I thought Mepham and 0-9 did really well together.
32:21I think actually playing next to Mepham could help take Lugo 9 on again, as Phil mentioned.
32:28I think what we forget about Ballard as well is that his pre-season was really heavily
32:31interrupted, wasn't it, by that injury.
32:33He got himself fit and then he's had that Plymouth issue as well.
32:35So, I actually don't think it's the worst thing in the world that Ballard maybe is out
32:39for a little bit and comes on toward the end of games or whatever.
32:44And we know about Sunderland and the Championship and just Championship teams in general.
32:48You do need a squad.
32:49So, I don't think I'd break that partnership up just yet, but I mean, yeah, it is a great
32:53headache to have, it really is.
32:58Just moving away from the first team a little bit, Phil.
33:01Obviously, I know we spoke about Adil Ashish and Abdullah Bar before on the pod.
33:06Both of them played for the under-21s on Sunday, a 4-3 defeat against Everton away from home.
33:11Both of them scored for the under-21s against Everton as well.
33:14I mean, is that something you think Regis Liberis will have an eye on?
33:18Will he be encouraged by the work that they're showing to maybe try and force his way back
33:22into his plans?
33:26Yeah, a little bit.
33:27I think it's quite a hard one to work out, isn't it?
33:29I think that, you know, I asked him about the two of them last week at his press conference
33:33and he sort of said that he'd been pleased with what they'd done in training.
33:36And then Saturday, it seemed like an obvious chance to bring Ashish back into the squad,
33:40didn't it?
33:40With Alan Brown not being available, I know they're not the same player, but realistically,
33:46they occupy similar positions on the pitch.
33:49And I just felt that was quite telling because I think that ultimately, if Sunderland has
33:53been 1-0 down after 70 minutes or whatever, Ashish is a player who could potentially make
33:56something happen for you.
33:58And I think it's probably quite revealing that Liberis opted not to bring him into the
34:04squad.
34:04He's been very clear that he's not closed the door on them and they can still force
34:08the way back in training.
34:08But it feels like they've got a long way to come back.
34:11And I just think, like the sign of Connolly, as I said before, I understand that they don't
34:14play in the same position.
34:16But realistically, that's another attacking player who is coming in the building to play.
34:21And I think when you put Perveda in the mix, Brown back from injury, you know, they need
34:24to find a place in the squad for Samed.
34:27I just think it's going to be really difficult.
34:28I can't see either of them really regularly getting their way back in.
34:32And the reality is certainly Ashish, who has played most of his football in Ligue 1, the
34:36French Ligue 1 that is, obviously.
34:39I think we're at a stage where I think those two are going to be looking to move in January
34:43and I suspect it'll be the same with Rousset if, as it plays out, Connolly comes in and
34:48takes that place in the squad.
34:49So I think credit to both of them really for obviously taking that chance yesterday, playing
34:5490 minutes, scoring.
34:56It feels like they've got quite a bit of work to do.
34:58I don't feel like Lebris is going to change his mind kind of overnight.
35:01He doesn't seem to give us that impression.
35:03So you never know.
35:04Football's a strange game, but I just feel like maybe sort of the writing's on the wall
35:09a little bit for those two.
35:10But you never know.
35:10If they keep sort of impressing and training, they keep scoring in Ligue 21's games, then
35:14you know, they've got a chance, haven't they?
35:20Yeah, that's the thing as well.
35:21It does feel like Lebris is willing to be genuinely quite meritocratic about things
35:26as well.
35:26And obviously the one name we haven't even mentioned yet, James, is Milan Aleksic.
35:29He's sort of been kind of involved for the first time over the weekend on the bench on
35:34Saturday and then obviously played for the U21s on Sunday.
35:37Again, he's another player who it's going to take a little bit of time for him to get
35:40up to speed, but he's another option in the middle of the park, isn't he?
35:43Yeah, I think it'll definitely be a slow burner when I went to the Q&A with the summer
35:49signings at the stadium last week.
35:51He didn't speak any English at all, really.
35:54So I think that'll be something we'll be looking to rectify.
35:57You know, he's such a young lad coming into a new country.
35:59It's going to take a while.
36:00We've seen it with other players, haven't we?
36:03Obviously, Maienda, it's taken him a year to sort of find his feet.
36:07So I think anything we get from Aleksic this season will be a bit of a bonus, really.
36:13I think I'm excited to see him play because he's so highly rated.
36:17But yeah, it's one of those where we don't really know what sort of impact he's going
36:23to have on Sunderland's first team.
36:24It could be one for the future.
36:26I might be doing him a disservice and he might come in and really surprise us and start
36:31contributing fairly soon.
36:33But I guess that's why it's so exciting, isn't it?
36:34It's the sort of the unknown.
36:36It's one of those nice sort of foreign football manager signs, isn't it?
36:40When you get somebody that's highly rated and you're excited to see how they'll do.
36:44But yeah, looking forward to seeing him play, definitely.
36:48And finally, Phil, Watford next weekend, another tricky test for La Brissa's side.
36:56Yeah, it's an interesting stage of the season, isn't it?
36:58Where it's really difficult to work out how strong an opponent is.
37:00So like, is this the Watford who won their first three games of the season or the one
37:04who lost 4-1 to Norwich, who haven't exactly had a brilliant start of the season themselves?
37:08So yeah, it's going to be a really interesting game.
37:12They're still a team who I think have a lot of quality.
37:16I think that realistically, you know, they're not a million miles away from being the team
37:22that had parachute payments and had Premier League players in it.
37:24So I think it's one that you cannot afford to take lightly because they have real individual
37:29quality.
37:30Interesting that the centre-half and also that goalkeeper and captain both came off
37:34with injuries within 15 minutes of the game starting on Saturday.
37:37So, you know, if neither of them are fit for this weekend, then that's a pretty big blow
37:41for them.
37:42So yeah, I think it'll be a really difficult game.
37:46I think what's really nice about Sunderland at the moment is, you know, it doesn't feel
37:50like, especially when they go away from home because of the points they've already put
37:53on the board, like they're under a huge amount of pressure, really.
37:55I think we've seen this season that they seem to really enjoy it when they can invite the
37:59team on a little bit and maybe try and break a pace.
38:02So looking forward to it, I think it's just a nice feeling to, you know, we spent a lot
38:06of time on this podcast talking about, you know, which player has to drop out, you know,
38:10who's going to be really unlucky not to be picked.
38:12It feels like a while since we've been kind of having those conversations.
38:15And so, yeah, looking forward to it.
38:17But I do think it'll be a tricky game, although I don't expect Watford to be up there this
38:21year.
38:21I think they have declined quite a bit from the team a few years ago that was sort of
38:26jumping between the Championship and the Premier League.
38:29You know, they still have enough, they definitely have enough individual quality.
38:32And we've seen that in the last few times Sunderland have played them in various fixtures,
38:35even when they haven't been doing very well.
38:37They've got individuals who can hurt you.
38:39Another really tricky game, but no reason for Sunderland to be anything other than really
38:43positive and optimistic going into it either.
38:48OK, lovely stuff.
38:49I think that's probably all we've got time for on this week's show.
38:51Join us again next week when we'll be discussing all of the latest Sunderland news and
38:55developments.
38:55In the meantime, follow the latest Black Cats news at SunderlandEagle.com, or if you're
39:01not already, follow the three of us on social media.
39:03Thanks to James.
39:04Thanks to Phil.
39:05Thanks to you for listening.
39:06Catch you again next week.
39:07Goodbye.