#khabar #khawajasif #militarytrial #militarycourts #arshadsharif #shaheedarshadsharif #pti #justiceyahyaafridi #chiefjusticeofpakistan #chiefjustice #barristeralizafar #mohammadmalick
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Muhammad Malick
Guests:
- Barrister Ali Zafar PTI
- Khawaja Muhammad Asif PMLN
Shaheed Arshad Sharif Ko Insaaf Kab Milega..? Mohammad Malick Analysis
Does PTI accept Justice Yahya Afridi as Chief Justice...? Barrister Ali Zafar's Shocking Revelations
"PTI MNAs nay constitutional amendment ki himayat...", Khawaja Asif
"Military tanseebat par hamla karnay walun ka case military court mein...", Khawaja Asif
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
Subscribe to our channel and press the bell icon for latest news updates: http://bit.ly/3e0SwKP
ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
(Current Affairs)
Host:
- Muhammad Malick
Guests:
- Barrister Ali Zafar PTI
- Khawaja Muhammad Asif PMLN
Shaheed Arshad Sharif Ko Insaaf Kab Milega..? Mohammad Malick Analysis
Does PTI accept Justice Yahya Afridi as Chief Justice...? Barrister Ali Zafar's Shocking Revelations
"PTI MNAs nay constitutional amendment ki himayat...", Khawaja Asif
"Military tanseebat par hamla karnay walun ka case military court mein...", Khawaja Asif
Follow the ARY News channel on WhatsApp: https://bit.ly/46e5HzY
Subscribe to our channel and press the bell icon for latest news updates: http://bit.ly/3e0SwKP
ARY News is a leading Pakistani news channel that promises to bring you factual and timely international stories and stories about Pakistan, sports, entertainment, and business, amid others.
Category
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NewsTranscript
00:00Assalam-o-Alaikum, you are watching Khabar Lahariya, I am Muhammad Malik.
00:16There are a lot of news, but first I would like to talk about Ashraf Sharif Shaheed.
00:21Today is his second birthday.
00:23He was like a younger brother to us.
00:26I realize this every day.
00:31Because this is the same time band that I used to program in.
00:34My office is the same as Ashraf's.
00:37So every day I walk in, I remember what happened and what didn't.
00:41I have to say with great sorrow that Ashraf is slowly becoming a picture on the wall.
00:47It's his second year, his second birthday.
00:49Nothing happened.
00:51He has gone to the Supreme Court, to the High Court, commissions have been made,
00:55fact-finding committees have been made, a good report has been made on fact-finding.
00:59And after that, silence.
01:01In fact, when there was a hearing in the Supreme Court last time,
01:04another strange scene happened that day.
01:06The hearing was adjourned.
01:08Ashraf Shah's bench was made.
01:10When he sat on the bench, he said,
01:12this is a three-member bench, this should have been a five-member bench.
01:15How did the case come to us?
01:17The biggest problem is that the case is not moving forward.
01:21Today, Vukla, as we speak,
01:23he has a big cut in Peshawar as well,
01:25and he is talking about the freedom of judiciary for everyone.
01:28But when Ashraf Sharif's family wanted to make him a lawyer,
01:31believe me, they spoke to the top 12-13 lawyers.
01:35Not everyone made excuses and took the case.
01:38Later, a retired judge from our district, he volunteered and became a lawyer.
01:42He did not find a lawyer in this country,
01:44where there are hundreds of thousands of lawyers.
01:46Anyway, that's a different story.
01:48Then, some characters whose names were coming up,
01:51one of them is a very important character, Mr. Faiz Ameed.
01:53He is also on trial at the moment.
01:55I don't know if he is being talked to about this or not.
01:58But it seems that there is a lot of talk.
02:01The matter is not moving forward.
02:03And a message is going very clearly,
02:05that if someone gives his life for the truth,
02:07for his beliefs, for his nation,
02:10then perhaps there is no value for him in that country.
02:13There is no recognition of him.
02:15And we hope that the new leadership of the military has come.
02:20The situation in Islamabad has also changed.
02:22The power equation has changed.
02:24So those people who might have covered it up until yesterday,
02:27and could have covered it up,
02:29they are not in power today.
02:31Will the current leadership of the military and our civilians make it a priority?
02:36Will the new Chief Justice take this forward?
02:40This is our prayer.
02:42And there can be a lot of things on this,
02:44but I would like to say that I have one request to Mr. Imran Khan.
02:49In October 2022, he said in a speech that he had called Arshad
02:54and warned him to leave the country.
02:56Your life is in danger.
02:58After that, he was out for 10 months.
03:00After that, he was arrested.
03:02He gave a lot of speeches on that too.
03:04He mentioned Arshad every time.
03:06Now I have only one hope,
03:08that when he gets a chance to talk to the media again,
03:11then God willing, he will tell the truth
03:13that what facts did he have,
03:15on the basis of which Arshad was asked to leave the country.
03:18Because no one is getting a clue right now.
03:21If he gives that clue,
03:23then maybe something will move forward.
03:25And I think the support that Arshad gave him,
03:28and his death,
03:30this support was a big help.
03:32Because the people in power at that time did not like this.
03:35So I think Arshad has a debt on Khansa too.
03:38And I hope that he opens this matter now,
03:41tells the truth,
03:43then maybe this matter will move forward.
03:45We can only pray,
03:47otherwise this will be the third or fourth time in this country,
03:50and we will keep talking like this.
03:52But this is very expensive blood.
03:54It should not be left.
03:56And God willing, it will not go either.
03:58But justice should be found.
04:00We, the nation, his family are waiting.
04:03And it is a matter of great shame,
04:05if Arshad Sharif does not get justice here.
04:35So this tells you how deep the divisions are.
05:05Mr. Ali, Assalam-o-Alaikum.
05:29Assalam-o-Alaikum.
05:31The constitutional amendments have been made.
05:33Now you tell me that
05:35the PTA stated that
05:37our Chief Justice is only Mansoor Ali Shah.
05:39There is no one else except him.
05:41Now you can say it in a controversial way,
05:45but I think Justice Zia-e-Afridi is not controversial.
05:48Is Justice Zia-e-Afridi
05:50your Chief Justice or not?
05:54Look, in my opinion,
05:56he is not at all controversial.
05:58In fact, all three judges,
06:00Mr. Zia-e-Afridi was the senior most.
06:02He is a very respected judge.
06:04And in my opinion,
06:06all the judges of the Supreme Court of India,
06:08I rate them as top of the line judges.
06:14Their education is very good.
06:18Their background is also very good.
06:20They have made very wise decisions.
06:22So I think if you look at all three,
06:25there was no difference.
06:27Therefore,
06:29our position was that
06:31we do not want to be person-specific.
06:37We want that whatever be the constitutional amendments,
06:41the criteria should be very clear and transparent.
06:45So you consider him to be your Chief Justice?
06:49According to the constitution,
06:51he is the Chief Justice.
06:53There is no doubt that
06:55the constitutional amendments have been made.
06:57As long as these amendments are in place,
06:59if they are not abolished,
07:01then he is the Chief Justice.
07:03But we do not agree with him.
07:05At least, I do not agree with him
07:07that this is the right way.
07:09I think there should be a change.
07:11No, I am asking because
07:13two leaders of your party,
07:15your Secretary General PTI,
07:17Mr. Salman Akram Raja
07:19and Mr. Hamid Khan,
07:21they said yesterday and today
07:23that Mr. Afrid should not have been accepted.
07:27He should not have been accepted.
07:29Do you agree with them?
07:31Look, these are two different things.
07:33One is not to accept.
07:35We should not accept.
07:37Second, what is their choice
07:39whether they accept him or not.
07:41This is their choice.
07:43It can be demanded from them
07:45that your turn will come later.
07:47Let Mr. Masood Ali Shah do it first.
07:49This is their choice.
07:51Let Mr. Ali Shah do it first.
07:53This can be demanded from anyone.
07:55But ultimately, it is their choice.
07:57If they do not want him,
07:59then he will be the Chief Justice.
08:01If they had refused,
08:03then the next turn would have been
08:05of Aminuddin Khan.
08:07Do you think Aminuddin Khan
08:09would have been a better choice?
08:11No, I do not think
08:13that Aminuddin Khan's turn
08:15will come later.
08:17In my opinion,
08:19if all three of them refuse,
08:21then it will be the turn
08:23of someone else.
08:25This is what I think.
08:27Perhaps,
08:29this was not their intention.
08:31Their intention was
08:33that if no one
08:35from the first three
08:37accepts him,
08:39then he will go to the fourth.
08:41But the language used
08:43Their interpretation is that
08:45the next senior
08:47will come to the third panel
08:49and will have to make a choice
08:51among the three.
08:53Anyway,
08:55there was a big development today.
08:57Bushra Bibi was bailed
08:59in the Tosha Khana case.
09:01Some people are looking at it
09:03from different angles.
09:05There were two demands of PTI
09:07which were also adjusted
09:09by Maulana.
09:11One was that there will be
09:13no military courts in this amendment.
09:15Bushra Bibi's orders
09:17have arrived.
09:19Do you feel that
09:21this is a softening of stance
09:23towards the establishment
09:25and towards the party?
09:27No.
09:29I think it was a big victory
09:31of PTI.
09:33In the first draft,
09:35all these things were there.
09:37Age had to be increased.
09:39Mr. Faiz Shah had to stay.
09:41Similarly,
09:43the provision of military courts
09:45was also there.
09:47Similarly, the power of the High Court
09:49had to be abolished.
09:51All these things were there.
09:53But we supported Mr. Allama,
09:55Mr. Maulana, and JUI.
09:57And we
09:59kept requesting them
10:01that...
10:03Don't you think this is a softening of stance?
10:05No.
10:07I think this was a political stand
10:09which was successful.
10:11But the first draft
10:13was not successful.
10:15I am asking because
10:17when Faisal Wabda
10:19is a colleague of yours,
10:21he says that his thoughts
10:23reflect
10:25other thoughts.
10:27He also gets information.
10:29He also said that Bushra Bibi
10:31will stay.
10:33Otherwise, he never gives good news
10:35for PTI.
10:37I am asking because
10:39is there a connection or not?
10:41No, there is no connection.
10:43As far as the case of Bushra Bibi is concerned,
10:45I think
10:47it was a very good case
10:49on the merits.
10:51If Mr. Wabda predicted it,
10:53he might have done it
10:55because he knew that
10:57the High Court was going to give a bail.
10:59And we were expecting this.
11:01What can we say about the cases?
11:03In this country, the punishment was on the age.
11:05That case was
11:07a very light case.
11:09Tell me, do you expect
11:11that it will be done?
11:13As I said,
11:15let me explain a little bit.
11:17In the lower courts,
11:19there is no hope
11:21that we will get justice.
11:23But as you have seen,
11:25in every case,
11:27when the case goes to the High Court,
11:29the High Court gives us relief
11:31because the case does not get done.
11:33And especially when
11:35there is a complete debate
11:37about the case.
11:39We have seen this in the case of Iddat,
11:41in the case of Tushakhana 1,
11:43in the case of Saifur,
11:45and in the case of bail.
11:47We are denied from below.
11:49We are denied.
11:51We are punished.
11:53But on top of that,
11:55we get justice.
11:57But tell me one thing.
11:59You have praised Mr. Afridi a lot,
12:01and rightly so.
12:03Now that you have become a Chief Justice,
12:05does it make any difference
12:07who the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court is?
12:09Because all the things
12:11will be decided
12:13by the senior judges
12:15of the Judicial Panel.
12:17All the political cases
12:19will go to the Supreme Court.
12:21So does it really make any difference
12:23whether Mr. Mansoor Shah
12:25would have been the Chief Justice
12:27or someone else,
12:29Senior Moss or Number 3?
12:31I don't think
12:33it would have made any difference
12:35because you are right
12:37that there are two types of powers.
12:39One is that the powers
12:41that are left with the Supreme Court
12:43are of a common
12:45civil court
12:47or a very senior criminal court.
12:49That is, the civil cases
12:51and criminal cases will be done.
12:53And where all the proceedings
12:55of political cases
12:57used to take place,
12:59all of them will go
13:01to the IMEI Bench.
13:03And the Presiding Officer of the IMEI Bench
13:05will decide
13:07and supervise it.
13:09So what is your party saying
13:11about this?
13:13That our Chief Justice was just
13:15Mr. Mansoor Shah,
13:17we don't believe anyone.
13:19If this is such an irrelevant question,
13:21then why this aggression on this?
13:23Look, there are two things here.
13:25One is the movement
13:27of lawyers.
13:29And the movement of lawyers
13:31is different from PTI.
13:33And there it is being said
13:35that the principle
13:37of seniority
13:39should be implemented.
13:41Not that you give
13:43authority to the executive
13:45or give authority to some other committee
13:47to decide
13:49among the first three judges.
13:51So I don't think
13:53this is a legal issue.
13:55This is a demand
13:57of lawyers.
14:25Chief Justice.
14:55Chief Justice.
15:25Chief Justice.
15:43Sir, down to my last 30 seconds,
15:45divisions,
15:47no one can deny that there were divisions of judges.
15:49Mr. Mansoor Shah is going back to his old age.
15:51There used to be a camp
15:53of Mansoor Shah.
15:55There was no camp here, but there were divisions.
15:57Will Justice Jaya Afridi
15:59be able to reunite
16:01this fractured Supreme Court,
16:03in your opinion?
16:05Yes, this is the hope.
16:07And the hope is also because
16:09you have seen in his tenure
16:11or in his judgments in many cases
16:13that he has been making
16:15independent decisions
16:17and no one saw that...
16:19Will the government be able to do it or not?
16:21In your opinion?
16:23I think, God willing, they will be able to do it.
16:25Mr. Ali Zafar, thank you very much.
16:27Now it's time for a break.
16:29After the break, let's hear
16:31what the Defence Minister says
16:33about Faiz Ameed
16:35and who wants to hold
16:37Imran Khan's trial
16:39in the military court in the future
16:41and why he wants to do it
16:43and if they are bringing a second amendment
16:45for this.
16:51Welcome back to the show.
16:53We will talk about this
16:55with Defence Minister Khawaja Asif
16:57and we will talk about two or three critical things.
16:59Why is the tenure of the Chief Justice
17:013 years? Why not 5 years?
17:03Do these three judges want to
17:05put their finger down?
17:07What is being done about General Faiz Ameed's trial?
17:09When will his decision be made?
17:11Because people are saying
17:13that this is the biggest question
17:15related to whether Imran Khan's trial
17:17can go to the military court
17:19or not. There are many other things.
17:21Let's talk to Khawaja Asif.
17:23Thank you very much for your time.
17:25I have two or three questions.
17:27First, you have passed the constitutional amendments.
17:29How did you do it?
17:31We will talk about that later.
17:33But tell me, is there a phase 2
17:35of the constitutional amendments?
17:37Because the MQM people are saying
17:39that they have been guaranteed
17:41that the local bodies will do it in the next phase.
17:43The ANP people are saying
17:45that they have been given the mandate
17:47and the military courts are saying
17:49that there are specific incidents
17:51on May 9th, especially
17:53the incidents of attacks.
17:55Earlier, this was a part of the original
17:57plan of the amendment.
17:59Then Maulana Sahib stepped aside.
18:01So, is there a phase 2
18:03of the constitutional amendments?
18:05And if there is, when will it come?
18:07Look, I don't have
18:09an answer to these two things.
18:11When will it come?
18:13It is coming.
18:15I will answer that.
18:17Until there is
18:19a total consensus
18:21created
18:23on all the things
18:25that you have said,
18:27whether it is about the MQM
18:29or the ANP,
18:31I can give my
18:33personal opinion
18:35that
18:37the agenda
18:39that is left,
18:41the original script
18:43of the amendment,
18:45sooner or later
18:47it will come.
18:49But for that,
18:51we will have to prepare
18:53so that there is a consensus
18:55and there is no
18:57uncertainty.
18:59Everybody should
19:01be on board.
19:03And whatever
19:05needs to be fixed,
19:07the cracks
19:09in the system
19:11or the damage
19:13to the system over the years,
19:15or if there are
19:17requirements that
19:19need to be met
19:21on time,
19:23I am in support
19:25of creating
19:27a broad consensus
19:29in the Parliament.
19:31The amendment that we
19:33did on 26th, PTI was on board.
19:35PTI
19:37is on record.
19:39The discussion
19:41in the
19:43special committee
19:45room 5
19:47was that
19:49we had
19:51two main
19:53disagreements
19:55with the amendment.
19:57One was
19:59that
20:01there should
20:03not be
20:05a military course.
20:07They should not
20:09be given
20:11an extension
20:13or a new term.
20:15Mr. Faiz Yusuf is not
20:17remaining and
20:19a non-military course
20:21is being formed.
20:23We are in agreement
20:25with this amendment.
20:27They went to meet
20:29Bani PTI.
20:31Bani PTI did not
20:33allow them.
20:35Mr. Faiz Yusuf
20:37said that
20:39he has done
20:41as much as he could.
20:43I cannot go beyond this.
20:45Otherwise, my Senators
20:47and my people will be arrested.
20:49I cannot go beyond this.
20:51When we saw Kasim Ronjo's
20:53entire incident,
20:55he gave a complete speech
20:57and put allegations.
20:59Later, his video came out.
21:01We saw this video
21:03when Imran Khan's people
21:05were leaving the party.
21:07His videos came out.
21:09There was a lot of
21:11similarity.
21:13One single camera shot.
21:15It seems that people
21:17were forced to do this.
21:19Otherwise, these things...
21:21Let me
21:23listen to you.
21:25You are talking about one amendment.
21:27We did not...
21:29You tell me
21:31We did not
21:33do this.
21:35We did not do this.
21:37We did not do this.
21:39We did not do this.
21:41We did not do this.
21:43We did not do this.
21:45We did not do this.
21:47We did not do this.
21:49We did not do this.
21:51We did not do this.
21:53We did not do this.
21:55We did not do this.
21:57We did not do this.
21:59Salman,
22:01another one.
22:03These people fought independently.
22:05They fought against our ticket.
22:07They fought independently.
22:09These people fought elections.
22:11Legally, they had
22:13the right
22:15to change
22:17their opinion
22:19and give us their opinion.
22:21There is no compulsion.
22:23Let me tell you that
22:25these people were originally
22:27In the last election, a lot of people went to PTI because they didn't get a ticket, or because someone else was ahead of them on their ticket.
22:39If you look at some of them, they went to PTI two or three months before the election.
22:48That's why I'm trying to make an argument.
22:54Otherwise, no one from PTI has taken a stand for this amendment.
23:03If this had happened a long time ago, why would we have accepted this amendment with one or two votes?
23:14We had our own numbers. We could have gotten votes from the Speaker or the Chairman of the Senate.
23:23That option was always open for us.
23:26So, if you want to make a point, you can do so.
23:34Otherwise, this is factually wrong.
23:38We'll take your point on that.
24:08This is a legal point. I'll give you my opinion on it.
24:13Tomorrow, the argument will be that the Defence Minister gave this statement.
24:18That's why I'll disagree with it.
24:20But let me ask you a question.
24:24Who attacks Pakistan's military installations?
24:28You answer me.
24:30Anyone who is against the army.
24:33Would anyone be hostile?
24:35No, not against the army.
24:38Who attacks the military installations?
24:48Has this ever happened in Pakistan's 76-year history?
24:53No, this has never happened.
25:00We'll have to find a way to prove it.
25:06Pakistan's military installations in Mardan, Chakdara, Peshawar, Lahore, Faisalabad and Mianwali resisted.
25:19There was firing there.
25:22Otherwise, they would have gone to the airfield and destroyed our planes.
25:26Only India can do this.
25:28I asked this question because I know that only India can do this.
25:36If I understand your point, then you can't say it formally.
25:42But you are saying that there is a high possibility of trial in their military court.
25:48I'll give you another example.
25:56What happened in America, they made a rapid course to punish those who attacked the parliament.
26:03There was no military installation there.
26:06If there was an attack on military installations, then you have to go to the military court.
26:10But there was an attack on the parliament.
26:13They made a special course at that time.
26:16And they punished people there.
26:18Within 2-3 months, all the evidence they had against the people there.
26:24The 18-year-old man who was sitting at the table, he was a woman.
26:31They were all decorated soldiers.
26:34They were all decorated soldiers.
26:36It didn't happen in the parliament.
26:39It happened at the military installations.
26:42If you see someone from within or from without,
26:46try to sabotage, let's say, a military installation in Pindi.
26:52How will you interpret that?
26:56Then tell me one thing, Mr. Khan.
26:59All of them are waiting.
27:01I think that when General Faiz's trial is going on,
27:08on the basis of that, it will be decided what statement he gives, what he does not give,
27:13what evidence has been collected.
27:15And after that, the decision will be made whether Imran Khan will be trialled in the military court or not.
27:20I tend to agree with you.
27:23What you are saying, whether I speculate or you speculate,
27:28there will be speculation.
27:30No, no, it's okay.
27:32One thing is that I don't think,
27:35maybe you know better,
27:37that General Faiz's military trial has already started.
27:42I don't know about this at least.
27:46Can you give us an idea of how long the decision is expected to be made?
27:51No, no, no.
27:53From my understanding in the custody,
27:58they have been taken for an investigation.
28:03Once that investigation is completed,
28:06only after that, if there are any allegations, they will be taken to the military court.
28:10Okay, so the formal trial has not yet started?
28:13Do you have any information as to whether they have been presented in a court,
28:18or whether there is a court or something like that?
28:21We don't know anything.
28:22Of course, everything is in camera.
28:23I am asking you because you are the defense minister.
28:26You must know whether the trial has started or not.
28:29The trial has not yet started.
28:31No, no, I know that the trial has not yet started.
28:41This will be a long process.
28:44I don't want to speculate.
28:48These are issues that should be avoided by speculating.
28:52There was a development today as well.
28:56When you brought the amendments,
28:58you said that there is a backlog of cases on the Supreme Court.
29:02We want the benches to hear these cases,
29:07so that the Supreme Court can close other cases.
29:09Today, there was a very interesting development.
29:11A case was going on.
29:12These were employees of the Ministry of Petroleum.
29:15There were 7-8 employees.
29:17They had been sacked.
29:18They had filed a case for reinstatement.
29:20The lawyer took a breath and said that
29:23it is the right of the Supreme Court
29:25to live a peaceful life.
29:27Our clients' lives have been ruined.
29:29Justice Mansoor Ali Shah and Justice Ayesha Malik said
29:33that this case will go to the Supreme Court.
29:36Technically, this is a case of reinstatement of employees.
29:40What if the judges are upset?
29:44I don't think so.
29:46What if there are 60,000 cases on the Supreme Court
29:49and only a few on the benches?
29:52The Empire might strike back.
29:57I don't think that the Supreme Court can give a decision
30:04that this is a case of reinstatement.
30:06This is a case of interpretation.
30:08They will have to create a framework
30:12to define whether this is a constitutional matter
30:18and whether it should go to the Constitutional Court.
30:25If Muhammad Malik gets fired tomorrow,
30:32he will say that he has a fundamental right
30:35to move around the district.
30:37He has fired me.
30:39If this case goes to the Constitutional Court,
30:41it won't be like this.
30:43This is what I am saying.
30:45It is possible that the judges are upset.
30:47They can move the workload to the Constitutional Benches.
30:55I won't speculate on this.
30:58Whenever a new system is created,
31:02it evolves.
31:05It goes through an evolution process.
31:07You will agree with me.
31:09When it goes through a judicial process,
31:17it becomes more refined.
31:20I think that the judiciary will decide
31:24which cases will go and which won't.
31:27The decision will be made
31:31based on the refinement of the law.
31:34Whether I speculate or Mr. Malik speculates,
31:38which case will go and which won't,
31:40we will leave it to the Apex Court.
31:42Mr. Khair, tell me one thing.
31:44Yesterday, you annulled Mr. Yahya Afridi
31:47for the Chief Justice.
31:50He is a man of impeccable integrity.
31:53The best thing about him is that he has been non-controversial.
31:57In the past 3-4 years,
31:59he has been non-controversial in all political cases.
32:02But he was at number 3.
32:04Did you discuss this?
32:08Do you think Justice Mansoor and Justice Muneeb Akhtar
32:12will continue or resign?
32:15Did you discuss this?
32:18Let me give you an example.
32:212-3 weeks ago,
32:23or 1-1.5 months ago,
32:26I don't remember exactly,
32:28but very recently,
32:31the High Court of Lahore
32:34had an appointment with the Chief Justice Committee.
32:38There was a panel of 3 judges.
32:44It was a panel of judges
32:47who were recommended to us.
32:51This was recommended by the Judicial Commission.
32:54Obviously,
32:56the Judicial Commission had a more potent body
33:00than the Parliamentary Forum.
33:04I was chairing the meeting.
33:08We endorsed the recommendation.
33:14Ms. Alia Neelam was at number 3.
33:18There were 2 senior judges.
33:20We endorsed their decision.
33:24Both the judges are working.
33:27They did not resign.
33:29It is the decision of the honourable judges.
33:32There is nothing wrong with that.
33:34I think this is an example of the recent past.
33:41Secondly,
33:43technically,
33:45I know that
33:47they were not elevated to the Supreme Court.
33:50At that time,
33:52the judges of the Supreme Court
33:54did not agree.
33:56If they had been elevated on time,
34:00Mr. Afridi,
34:04he would have been the senior judge.
34:06Now,
34:08by the grace of God,
34:10they have become
34:12totally non-controversial judges.
34:14Their decisions,
34:16their career,
34:18their upbringing,
34:20their family background,
34:22everything is impeccable.
34:24I am not saying that anyone is wrong.
34:26In that case,
34:28these 2 judges,
34:30Mr. Muneeb and Mr. Mansoor,
34:34if they continue,
34:36I think it is very normal.
34:38I have given you a precedence.
34:40We will take a short break.
34:42I have a lot of sensitive questions
34:44for Mr. Khawaja.
34:49Welcome back to the show.
34:51Mr. Khawaja,
34:53we saw very interesting timings.
34:55When the 8-5 decision was made
34:57for the benches,
34:59there were 2 clarifications
35:01from 8 members of the benches.
35:03Both of them came at a very crucial timing.
35:05First, when there was a vote.
35:07Second, it was a very critical timing.
35:09Yesterday, when Mr. Faizeesa
35:11gave his emotional note,
35:13it came at a very critical time
35:15when he knew that
35:17he was going to lose everything.
35:19The emotional note he wrote
35:21did not say anything.
35:23But it meant that
35:25he was trying to get article 6 passed.
35:27The judges who subverted the constitution
35:29under ambition,
35:31gave 6 months extra to General Bajwa
35:33and everything else,
35:35they must face the consequences.
35:37So, at this timing,
35:39the judge's note came
35:41when that judge was also being considered.
35:43Did this emotional note
35:45also come under consideration
35:47in the committee?
35:49No.
35:51To be frank,
35:53Munna didn't even know about this note.
35:55I am talking about myself.
35:57I didn't know.
35:59The rest of you may not know.
36:01Because we were busy the whole day
36:03sorting out what to do.
36:05We were busy with each other.
36:07We didn't know what was going on in the news.
36:09We didn't know at all.
36:11I am telling you honestly.
36:13I didn't know.
36:15The rest of the members,
36:17we didn't discuss this at any stage.
36:19Secondly,
36:21you made an interesting point
36:23that
36:25the judges
36:27whom you named
36:29at a crucial time,
36:31those 8 judges,
36:33they kept giving judgments
36:35to support
36:37the circumstances
36:39at that time
36:41to support
36:43a particular party.
36:45They kept providing cover
36:47by giving judgment or note.
36:49You must have discussed this.
36:51This must have been evaluated.
36:53No, this was not discussed at all.
36:55I said
36:57there was nothing negative about anyone.
36:59I am not authorized.
37:01I am under oath
37:03that I can't divulge details of the discussion.
37:05But I am telling you
37:07on oath
37:09regarding any judge,
37:11not a single negative word
37:13was uttered.
37:15Not a single negative.
37:17How did this balance happen?
37:19If all the judges were so good,
37:21then why did you bring up the third person?
37:23Look,
37:25I think
37:27there is no third person.
37:29Look,
37:31I will give another example.
37:33I gave this example in the assembly
37:35on the floor.
37:37In the army,
37:39if a fourth, fifth,
37:41seventh,
37:43or eighth person can be appointed,
37:45then that is
37:47a very big institution.
37:49But you have seen
37:51that in the army,
37:53when a fourth, fifth, or seventh person was appointed,
37:55he did everything in front of everyone.
37:57He did not do anything
37:59according to his own number.
38:01He did not do anything
38:03according to his own number.
38:05We have put a new tradition
38:07on that.
38:09For 12-13 days,
38:11I have been pleading with Mr. Bajwa
38:13that a person is at number one.
38:15According to your merit,
38:17he is at number one.
38:19Why are you resisting?
38:21Why are you resisting?
38:29Sir, tell me the last question.
38:31You did a three-year
38:33tenure of the Chief Justice.
38:35I am getting
38:37criticism about that.
38:39The parliamentarians
38:41did it because
38:43whoever becomes the Prime Minister,
38:45his term is five years.
38:47Every Prime Minister will have
38:49a chance to appoint
38:51a Chief Justice.
38:53Since he has to appoint
38:55three senior judges,
38:57he will have three judges
38:59in his control.
39:01Since he has to appoint
39:03three senior judges,
39:05he will have three judges
39:07in his control.
39:09If you had appointed
39:11five years,
39:13you would not have
39:15been criticized.
39:17You have appointed
39:19three top judges
39:21in three years.
39:23Why three years?
39:25Why not five years?
39:27Look,
39:29it could have been five years.
39:31It could have been five years.
39:33It is not a motive.
39:35I have heard
39:37your innovative opinion
39:39for the first time.
39:41There is no motive.
39:43There is no motive.
39:45Whenever there is a discussion
39:47in the world,
39:49for example,
39:51of democracies,
39:53of Britain,
39:55of America,
39:57all of them are appointed
39:59in the same way.
40:01American presidents
40:03have recommended
40:05personal friends
40:07for the bench,
40:09for the Supreme Court.
40:11They have known views.
40:13They are conservative.
40:15They have a stand
40:17on gay and lesbian issues.
40:19They have a stand
40:21on race and racial issues.
40:23You are right.
40:25There are public hearings.
40:27Confirmation hearings
40:29are public there.
40:31You will not do that here.
40:33You will decide.
40:35It should be done.
40:37Why did you not put that in the amendment?
40:39It should be a public hearing.
40:41But you
40:43told me the next day
40:45that you would
40:47start a drama
40:49based on them.
40:51You decide
40:53on your own.
40:55I am telling you
40:57that you had to
40:59give an argument
41:01that the parliamentarians
41:03would ridicule them
41:05and they would become
41:07hostages.
41:09I think
41:11the time is up.
41:13But I need your opinion.
41:15One thing has evolved.
41:1710 seconds.
41:19One thing has evolved.
41:21What you are saying
41:23has evolved.
41:25We have reached there.
41:27There is no need
41:29for a constitutional amendment.
41:31You can still decide
41:33based on their nomination.
41:35Let the
41:37evolution process
41:39decide that.
41:41We are in no hurry.
41:43We have crossed
41:45a threshold.
41:47When the time comes
41:49and you
41:51become comfortable
41:53then we will
41:55do that as well.
41:57So you are saying
41:59that you will hit me
42:01a few months later down the road.
42:03Thank you very much
42:05for your time.
42:11You have heard
42:13two or three interesting
42:15things from the defence minister.
42:17The trial has not started yet.
42:19There is another process.
42:21This means that there is
42:23still a long way to go.
42:25Because clearly
42:27until this trial is decided
42:29it is clear that
42:31their future about
42:33military role and the main 9th
42:35which is the biggest bogeysack for PTI
42:37no one can deny
42:39this decision.
42:41It is clear that
42:43this process will continue for a long time.
42:45I think
42:47we are not talking about weeks.
42:49We are talking about months.
42:51I think there will be a lot of problems
42:53in the future.
42:55Until
42:57they come out
42:59how much political stability
43:01will be gained?
43:03Only time will tell.