Guessing Régis Le Bris' Sunderland team to face Millwall with five unavailable
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:25My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Copley.
00:28No Phil Smith this week, he's off Skybing, so you're stuck with the two of us, I'm afraid,
00:32but I'm sure we'll manage, we'll soldier on through, won't we, James?
00:37It's been quite a couple of weeks, hasn't it?
00:40No Sunderland, international break, the end of our lives, I think it's fair to say.
00:45But they're back in action on Saturday, a trip to Millwall, probably going to be a tricky
00:49trip to Millwall, I think it's fair to say.
00:50Millwall obviously in decent form at the moment, and one that's going to be made all the more
00:54difficult by a number of personnel issues that Sunderland are having at the moment.
00:59It feels like they're missing half a team going into this weekend.
01:02I mean, it's kind of difficult to know what side Reg is going to pick for this one, isn't it?
01:08It is very difficult.
01:09So I think we're going to have a little exercise, aren't we?
01:13And we're going to go through a couple of teams together because there's a lot of variance.
01:18And I think we'll set the boundaries first.
01:19So obviously, Jobe suspended, Hume suspended, Patrick Robertson suspended.
01:24Mundell and Brown came off against Coventry City.
01:27Now, there's been a lot of rumours online about the extent of Romain Mundell and Alan Brown's injury.
01:32I would hazard a guess that both of them aren't going to be available for the Millwall game.
01:36That's just through stuff that I've heard.
01:38So we're going to work on the proviso that Mundell and Brown are also out.
01:43So that's five first teamers.
01:45Obviously, Jobe, Hume, Robertson, Mundell have all been crucially important.
01:50And obviously, Brown's been in and out of the side.
01:52So you've got injuries in defence, injuries in attack and injuries in midfield as well and suspensions.
01:58So it is a conundrum, I think, for Regis Libéry.
02:01And I don't think Millwall away at the Den when it's absolutely freezing is when you want this sort of conundrum, to be honest.
02:08So I am very, very interested to see what happens, what team he picks and how the players react,
02:13because it's going to be a big old test.
02:17Yeah, you sort of alluded to it there, but it's not only the fact that Sunderland have these injuries, these suspensions,
02:24but it's kind of wide reaching throughout the team.
02:27It's also in positions where they're not particularly well stocked, I think it's fair to say.
02:31Obviously, we've spoken at length and repeatedly about the lack of adequate full-back cover.
02:37So to be missing Trae Hume is a big blow.
02:41You then also look at, obviously, Paddy Roberts not being in the team.
02:45Ordinarily, you can sort of absorb that blow if you have an Ian Pavetta fit and ready to go, but Sunderland don't.
02:53You could also probably get around it if you have Romain Mundell on the other wing, thereby allowing Tommy Watson to maybe play slightly out of position out on the right.
03:02But again, it's looking as if Mundell is going to be a big doubt as well.
03:06I think it's fair to say at this early stage.
03:07So, yeah, it's kind of a perfect storm, isn't it?
03:11There's a lot of these things happening at once, a lot of blows for Sunderland to sort of weather at the same time.
03:17And I guess one of the things that I sort of wanted to ask you about then is how Regis Liberis might try and get around it.
03:25One of the things that has been sort of repeatedly touted is this idea that he might potentially change shape for this game.
03:30Not something that we've necessarily seen from him so far.
03:33Obviously, there's been slight alterations, but for the most part, it's been that 4-3-3 formation, if you like.
03:41Suggestions that maybe a three at the back might work better, given the players that Sunderland have available this weekend?
03:48Yeah, possibly. So I've got a couple of teams written down here, but they're 4-3-3.
03:54And the reason I've done that is because obviously we haven't seen him really change formations much, especially not from the start.
04:03Obviously, he went to a back five against Coventry, and he has done it towards the back end of games.
04:08He's brought on an extra defender. But I think for the most part, we've seen him wedded to that 4-3-3.
04:13Now, the personnel is really interesting. We'll move on, obviously, the five at the back options perhaps a bit later.
04:19And this is just one of my teams. It's not the team I necessarily think he's going to pick, but I haven't thought about it.
04:26I just thought that this may be offered the best balance.
04:29So obviously, I would go with Simon Muir or Patterson and Gould, whoever's fit.
04:33We don't necessarily know which one that's going to be.
04:35I would probably go towards Pat O if he was fit, although Simon Muir has done nothing wrong.
04:39So either or there. Serkin goes left-back. Ballard comes in at centre-back.
04:44I think you could play Mepham alongside him. And then at right-back, you've got a couple of options.
04:48You could play Zach Johnson there. You could play Ben Crompton there.
04:51You could play Leo Hjelda there, possibly, although Hjelda's played more at sort of left-centre-back, left-back.
04:58I would then think about, just for one game, putting 0-9 in a defensive midfield.
05:03I don't think he's a defensive midfielder. I'm not really that keen on him playing there.
05:07But I just think in terms of his positioning, his experience, his awareness, I think he could do a job there for a game.
05:14Obviously, you'd have Neal and Rigg there. I would then play Connolly out on the right-hand side.
05:19And I would play Isidor through the middle with Watson back to his favoured left.
05:24I thought that was sort of the most balanced team that I could think of.
05:28Obviously, there's a couple of variations. You could go with 0-9 at right-back instead.
05:33You could keep Neal sitting, but then you'd have a very inexperienced midfielder,
05:38potentially Rigg alongside either Aleksic, who hasn't played at all, or Harrison Jones.
05:44I mean, that's a big task for either of them away at Millwall.
05:47And then I would have the same front three. So, yeah, those were my sort of two preferred teams.
05:53I don't think Regis Libre will go in that direction, but that was what I came up with.
05:59I'll be interested to hear your variations on that or whether you would consider going to five at the back,
06:03because I haven't actually written a team out for five at the back.
06:06So I think that's a very interesting question altogether.
06:10Yeah, so I did a predicted 11 towards the back end of last week and I sort of looked at it.
06:18And while I don't, again, I don't necessarily think that Regis Libre would like to go to a five at the back,
06:26I think that the fact that you've got 0-9 Ballard and Mepham all fit.
06:31Obviously, Ballard's come through, I think it was 76 minutes for Northern Ireland the other night.
06:34He scored in that game as well. He looks ready to go now, I think it's fair to say.
06:38I think the fact that you've got those three, I don't know if it maybe forces his hand just a little bit.
06:44Obviously, then the big question you've got is not left wing back, that'll be Denis Sirkin and he'll absolutely thrive there.
06:50He gets forward enough, as he does anyway.
06:52Is then that right wing back position, I think it's a really tricky one to answer.
06:57I think that one way or another, Tommy Watson will be in the team.
07:02I think if you go to a five at the back, does that then necessitate him playing a right wing back?
07:09That's a big ask for him. He's a left winger.
07:13I thought he did very well in parts against Preston, but I think it's fair to say that he always looks more comfortable on that left wing when he's able to cut inside.
07:22So, putting him not only on the opposite flank, but then in a slightly more defensive role, that's obviously a huge ask for a player who is only 18, he's very inexperienced at this level.
07:33I guess then the other issue is that that would probably then necessitate bringing in a Milan Aleksic in that midfield.
07:41And again, he hasn't made his debut yet.
07:44For me, it does feel that if he is going to make his debut, now is as good a week as any, because the players who Sunderland are lacking in the areas that they're lacking as well.
07:56Joe Bellingham, Alan Brown, both not available.
07:59You know, he is an international, I mean, youth international, but he's been in that Serbia squad, an international standard midfielder who is sitting on the bench.
08:08So, a lot of fans are crying out to see their first glimpse of as well.
08:11Now, obviously, there must be a reason that Le Bris has not opted for him yet.
08:17It's a big move coming over to Sunderland from where he was at.
08:22And, you know, I understand that the grasp on the language probably isn't as far along as it might be in a year's time, for instance.
08:30So, there are obvious obstacles there.
08:32But at the same time, you know, they've signed him for a reason.
08:37And at a certain point, you kind of need to take the plunge.
08:39And I think that right now, where Sunderland are going into this weekend, for my money at least, would be as good a time as any to at least give him some form of run out.
08:50I think if we get through this weekend and we haven't seen any of Milan, Aleksic, even from the substitutes bench, then you sort of start to question why he's in the squad.
08:59You know what I mean?
09:00Yeah, I think it's so strange that, you know, because I do get, you know, he's come over from a different country, very highly rated.
09:08We've paid a lot of money for him, as you mentioned eloquently, the language, you know, the fitting into a new environment.
09:15But for me, the game would have been against Oxford at the Stadium of Light.
09:18He was on the bench, Sunderland were tuning up, Oxford offered absolutely nothing and Aleksic didn't come on.
09:23And that, for me, it really makes me wonder whether he'll be considered for a starting spot away against Millwall at all, because surely, surely that was the moment.
09:33I mean, we're going to speak to, well, Phil will speak to the Regis Lebris on Thursday or Friday.
09:38So I'm sure we'll get a better answer of, or better picture of where Aleksic sits in his thought process at the moment.
09:45But for me, that was not a red flag because it's still early days in his Sunderland career.
09:49But if he wasn't put on then, is he going to be trusted away to Millwall?
09:54And I agree with you, I think we've got to see him at some point and I'm excited to see him.
09:58I'm looking forward to seeing him.
09:59But, you know, the guy I mentioned, Harrison Jones, he's actually played more football for Sunderland than Aleksic.
10:06You could say he's probably more of a 10, you know, Harrison Jones, although he does play for it.
10:11He does play as an eight for the under-21s occasionally, but Championship's a little bit of a different ballgame.
10:16So, I mean, there's so much to consider, Jase.
10:19And as well, the two front threes I've gone for are obviously Connolly right, Isidore through the middle and then Watson on the left.
10:27There's no guarantee that Regis Lebris will actually do that because we've seen him put Connolly through the middle, Watson on the right and Isidore on the left.
10:33But I just think in terms of Millwall away in the Championship, I think we're going to need that target, man.
10:39I think Sunderland really suffered against Coventry City when Isidore was shutted over to the left.
10:45Connolly could do a job on the right.
10:47But, yeah, there's so many, so many questions.
10:52But, I mean, Kjelda's a really interesting one because quite clearly Lebris likes him.
10:56He's brought him on in games. He gave him the captaincy against Preston North End.
11:00He's talked about him in glowing terms.
11:02Obviously, it's been very hard for him to dislodge Meppermann 0-9 and then Alesi before him.
11:08And then he's probably behind Ballard in the pecking order.
11:10But could he come in and do a job in a back three or a back five?
11:14It's really, really interesting.
11:16But the trouble is that right back, isn't it?
11:18And, you know, Zac Johnson's more of a right-sided defender.
11:22So it is perplexing.
11:24And I'm really interested, firstly, to see what he says on Thursday.
11:28And then secondly, to see the team sheet at two o'clock because it's, yeah,
11:32I don't remember this much uncertainty over a Sunderland team sheet for a long while, actually.
11:39Yeah, I think that the Gelderman is really interesting because if he could be trusted to play on the right-hand side of defence,
11:46it solves a lot of issues immediately, you know.
11:49And equally, you know, Adiel Ys is back in training.
11:54There are positive signs there, but it's been a while since he's had a run out of any nature.
12:02And then beyond that as well, we know that he is a left-sided defender.
12:05Obviously, he played wonderfully at the start of the season, but he's very much more a left-back than he would be a right-back.
12:15You know, the other question then is, do you maybe think about Luke O'Neill at right-back?
12:20I know you've mentioned it as one potential option.
12:22I think that if he were to stick to a four and if he were to choose one of those three centre-backs,
12:28I think O'Neill is probably the most natural option to be shifted out there.
12:34Obviously, he's played there before, so he's played everywhere for Sunderland, I think it's fair to say, isn't it?
12:37He's played there for Sunderland, so I don't know.
12:41The Zach Johnson one's interesting as well because, you know, he's been in and around the first team.
12:45He's done nothing wrong when he's been in and around the first team, I think it's fair to say.
12:48You know, he's given a good enough account of himself for a young lad who hasn't had many minutes.
12:55And again, it's one of those, isn't it, where how much do some of them trust in youth?
13:01And I think so far this season, it's all the truth, isn't it?
13:04You know, you look at the players who've come through, who are really having big seasons and emerging at quite a pace.
13:10You know, there's certainly no indications that Le Bris would withhold somebody based on the fact that they haven't got that experience or that they're not old enough.
13:19You know, so maybe Johnson is the one.
13:22Maybe he trusts Sheldon out there.
13:24Maybe it is O'Neill.
13:24But like you say, it's kind of baffling.
13:30It's baffling.
13:30And I don't think we're used to being baffled by it at all.
13:34Somebody's just pointed out that Laxey Metman was a right back in his youth days.
13:36And I have heard actually that he's played right back at times.
13:40And actually, having thought about it, Jason, just looking through Sunderland's squad list, I've done my team without Baar and Aushish in mind because they haven't played much at all.
13:53I think Baar's got one substitute appearance.
13:56Aushish may be similar.
13:57I can't remember off the top of my head.
13:59It'd be really interesting to see what Le Bris says about them, whether they come back into the fold, because that would perhaps solve a little bit of the midfield issue if O'Neill wasn't right back.
14:09Then you could have Aushish or Baar in the middle, maybe.
14:12I mean, I don't like Abdullah Baar as a centre midfielder at all.
14:16He could be an option off the right wing.
14:18But would he play Aushish ahead of Oleksiy in the middle against Millwall?
14:25I don't know.
14:27Yes, there's just so many variables.
14:29And I think actually, just as a little aside, what's telling, as he was pretty much signed for the first team but it hasn't worked out, is in all of this, in all of this analysis, in all of these different teams, considering under-21 players that can make the step up, none of us have mentioned Joe Anderson.
14:46And I think that probably signals where he is in his Sunderland career as well, looking ahead to January and the summer, that he's not really in favour.
14:55I haven't seen him since Preston in the Carabao Cup.
14:58So he's one you could probably rule out and you'd probably expect him to leave as well.
15:02But that Aushish and Baar is really interesting because they've both played fair amounts of first-team football.
15:08But La Brice clearly didn't trust them and really want them anywhere near the set-up when Sunderland were in good form and had loads of options.
15:15So, you know, has he kept them sweet?
15:18Will they play for him?
15:19You know, it's fascinating, really, isn't it?
15:23Yeah, again, to sort of echo what I was saying before about putting Kjelde in at right-back, if there is a version of this where Abdullah Baar plays on the right and Aushish plays in that sort of slightly more advanced midfield role,
15:36it instantly solves a lot of problems because they are players who were bought to play in those positions and who have played in those positions for Sunderland as well, you know.
15:45So whether or not La Brice has enough trust in them at this point to throw them in, I'm not so sure.
15:55And I think that is the big question here, isn't it?
15:57Because there have been so many moments already this season where not even, you know, not in terms of starting berths or anything like that,
16:07but we've sort of received the team sheet and you're kind of looking through the substitutes bench and you're thinking,
16:12well, if Adil Aushish isn't on the bench for this game, when is he going to be on the bench?
16:17Do you know what I mean? There have been so many moments like that where you would assume that even if he's just there to make the numbers up,
16:24having that, you know, I use it in a very relative sense, but that slightly more experienced head would be the sensible thing to do.
16:36Sensible might not be the right word, but at least the logical thing to do.
16:39And La Brice just hasn't. And I think that really does speak volumes about where he sees both of those players.
16:45I think obviously Barr appears to be slightly closer to that first team picture than Aushish because he has been on the bench three or four times a season, something like that.
16:54So, you know, there are certainly options.
16:58Whether they're options that La Brice will seriously consider, I'm not so sure.
17:05But at the same time, you know, if they do get a run out on Saturday, then what better opportunity to prove to him that they do have a future at Sunderland,
17:13that they are of worth to his project and that they can contribute?
17:18Because, you know, again, we're looking at Sunderland and over the sort of broad span of the season writ large.
17:26If you can call on an informed and effective Abdullah Barr as cover for Patrick Roberts or, you know, Ian Pavetta, who clearly has his injury problems at the moment,
17:35then that would probably save someone a few headaches in the January window as well.
17:40But again, it comes back to that thing of whether or not La Brice is willing to go there.
17:43And I'm just not sure whether he is right now.
17:48It's so interesting because he hasn't really said this in so many words about Aushish or Barr,
17:55but a lot of the noises that come from La Brice around the players that do play for him are about them understanding the game model,
18:02buying into what he wants, sort of understanding his plan.
18:06He uses the word game model quite a lot, and he likes it when players fit into that game model.
18:10They understand that game model and they execute that game model.
18:13So reading between the lines, you can only sort of deduce that he either doesn't rate them as football players or he doesn't think that they've bought into his system.
18:24So it's a bit of a damning indictment, really.
18:26And just as a little aside, Jase, as well, thrown it back to this summer.
18:32Obviously, the signs, Sam Eddington there on loan, he hasn't been fit at all.
18:36And I think now is the time where we're seeing that sort of transfer failure, not that it was necessarily Sunderland's fault.
18:43You know, they didn't realise the extent of his injury for whatever reason.
18:47Could that have been flagged up in a medical possibly?
18:51But it seemed to exacerbate as his Sunderland career sort of began.
18:56And there's been a couple of setbacks, so it's hard to pin blame on that.
18:59But, you know, Sunderland did cover for that eventuality.
19:03They did cover for this eventuality in ways.
19:05You could argue all day about the full-back situation and whether that's properly staffed at the moment.
19:08But in terms of central midfield, they did have an inkling this could happen.
19:11They did plan for rotation and that transfer, it just hasn't worked yet.
19:15We haven't seen him. He's not been fit.
19:17I'm not sure he's trained yet, but that's one that's really, really sort of set Liverpool back, I think, in terms of the middle of the game.
19:24Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
19:26Because, you know, you look on paper and Sunderland have obviously that midfield three that we've seen most of the season,
19:32that Neil Bellingham-Rigg trio, which, you know, I maintain that he's struggled to find a better midfield three in the Championship than that.
19:40I think they're as good as the Championship have to offer as a unit when they're on their game.
19:45Obviously, Alan Brown has impressed for the most part when he's been called upon.
19:50Started the season in the team, obviously got injured, dropped out, but has been called upon several times and has contributed.
19:57And then you look beyond that and if we were talking about a situation where Oleksij had hit the ground running
20:03and where Sam Edd hadn't suffered with this injury that he's really aggravated over the course of however many months now, we're talking really, aren't we?
20:11Sunderland have six central midfielders and that's absolutely fine.
20:15And therefore, Adil Ashish can afford to be left out.
20:20You know, you've got, you mentioned it, but Harrison Jones, you know, we watch a lot of the under-21s and I'm always impressed with Harrison Jones.
20:27I think what he offers is brilliant.
20:30And I said this last week on the podcast, but I do genuinely see him as a player who, over the next couple of years,
20:36could force his way into that first team picture on a more regular basis because I think he's got the attributes to do so.
20:41But again, like you say, the Sam Edd thing is kind of hamstrung Sunderland massively because you take him out of the equation and suddenly they do look a little bit light.
20:50And I think that it's for that reason as well that these persistent Jordan Henderson rumours that they get dragged up again and again and, you know, make them what you will.
21:02But I think that's why they're so appealing at the moment, because you look at it on a pure sort of numerical basis.
21:08And right now, you would have to say that someone could use another midfielder because, you know, that they're at least one short.
21:15And also, I don't doubt that when he gets fit and when he gets up and running, you know, Sam Edd was playing Champions League football last year.
21:22I think he's got something to offer. He will be a very good signing for Sunderland.
21:26But there's no guarantee of that. And we haven't seen anything from him yet to suggest whether he will or whether he won't.
21:31So you could find yourself in a situation come the January window where Sunderland have four midfielders they can rely on.
21:37One, in Ashish, who is very much an outcast, and then two who are massive unknown quantities, entities, I can't get my words out, but massive unknown entities.
21:47And if that is the case, then suddenly you're looking at the second half of the season and a potential promotion push, as we're all hoping, thinking, well, is that going to be enough for them?
21:56So I really don't know. I think the other quick thing to point out about Ashish as well,
22:00you mentioned about obviously the game model and how Lebris likes players who he knows he can trust within that model.
22:06Let's not forget that they have worked together at Lorient and it didn't work out at Lorient, but you have offloaded him there.
22:14So I do wonder with Ashish whether or not the writing might be on the wall with regards to him.
22:21One thing I do quickly want to come back to as well is the Wilson Isidor thing,
22:25because I think Lebris maybe will be tempted to put him out on the left because then it allows a Connolly or a Maienda, we haven't even mentioned Elisa Maienda.
22:33Yeah, that's a very good point, actually. Yeah, that is a very, very good point. He could do that.
22:37Yeah, so he might do that. But I fully agree with you in the sense that I think that especially over the past few weeks when we've seen Lebris do that,
22:45Sunderland have lost a very important aspect of their attack and play.
22:51That's nothing against Maienda, who I think started the season fantastically, especially given the circumstances.
22:57I think that Aaron Connolly is understandably still finding his feet in a Sunderland shirt.
23:03But I think that right now the best option for Sunderland as a goalscoring threat is to have Wilson Isidor playing through the middle.
23:11So I really hope that Lebris sticks with that and doesn't experiment with putting him out on the left wing again.
23:20Yeah, and I think just, you know, I've got different sort of teams running through my mind here, but we've talked about three at the back or five at the back,
23:29and then we've talked about the 4-3-3. But Sunderland, when they're actually defending, they're sort of morphing to that 4-4-2, don't they?
23:35So that could be an option as well as a starting formation. You could have a sort of a flat 4-4-2.
23:41You could go two up front. You could play Maienda there. You could play Isidor off the left with Connolly up front.
23:47So there's options there as well. And on a wider point as well, I actually sympathise with the club and with Lebris a little bit on this,
23:54because the scenario really where you've got Job, Hume and Roberts all suspended at the same time.
23:59I mean, Hume was on four yellows for weeks, and then it's just Sod's law that he gets suspended at exactly the same time that Job and Roberts are on.
24:08So you can't really plan for that. You know, Ian Pavade has come in. They knew about his injury record, but he hasn't been fit at all.
24:14You can argue about that transfer. But then against Coventry to have Mundell and Brown go down in the same phase of play, you can't legislate for that.
24:24Alan Brown as well. I mean, when we were linked with him in the summer and when he signed, I think it was when he signed actually, because it was one of those out-the-blue signings, wasn't it?
24:32Me and Phil looked at his injury record. He's hardly missed a game for Preston. I think he's on to his third or fourth injury for Sunderland now.
24:39The rumours are that it could be a bad one, a potential fractured leg or leg break. He did look in some discomfort against Coventry.
24:47And then you've tried to get Sam Eddin, and that's not worked either. So it's tough.
24:52And I do sympathise with the club and the squad plan as well, because I think when everyone's fit, there's a really, really healthy squad there.
25:01And I think, you know, going back to maybe the playoffs under Tony Mowbray, when Sunderland didn't have a fit centre-half
25:08and there was injuries to Stewart and Ellis Simms had gone back, that squad never looked fully fleshed out to me.
25:15And there was an opportunity in the January to perhaps address some of that, and it didn't really come.
25:20Sunderland tried a few things, but it didn't really work.
25:23But now I think, you know, there are a couple of players away from being a really, really top team in the Championship,
25:28and they are a top team in the Championship because we're going into the November international break top.
25:33But, yeah, full-backs are a concern. But, yeah, I can't stress how interested I am to see what happens on Saturday.
25:41It's fascinating. I think, and it is, it's like, obviously, Lebris has done really, really well for Sunderland so far,
25:48but we are coming off the back of three draws, although we are unbeaten in eights.
25:53We threw away the two-goal lead against Coventry, and it's just such a tough test that, you know,
25:59if they come away with, like, a really spirited point or manage to nick a win, it could do so much for Sunderland in terms of the promotion.
26:08I don't want to over-edit because Sunderland could conceivably lose against Millwall, and they could still go on and be a playoff team.
26:14They could still go on and get automatic promotion. I don't think losing against Millwall would define Sunderland's season.
26:21However, if you do manage to pick up a good point or a good three points,
26:25it can be one of those where it can potentially look back on at the end of the season and go, right, that was the game,
26:30because we had so much adversity, five players out, a makeshift team, and we managed to get something.
26:35It could really, really do a lot for the belief.
26:38So, yeah, I'm actually looking forward to watching the game because, you know, Millwall have got a few ex-Sunderland players as well.
26:44Whatmore's in a good vein of goalscoring form.
26:47I haven't looked at their injuries to see if they've got any struggles at the moment, but expecting a tough, tough game.
26:53Yeah, I mean, you mentioned Sodslaw. It is kind of Sodslaw that Millwall barely have any injury issues at the moment.
26:59I think they've got a couple of doubts, from what I understand, a couple of doubts who could potentially make their comeback at the weekend.
27:06So, yeah, you're going to the den against essentially fully physical.
27:10I think they've won four of their last five, two of their most recent one or so.
27:15They're in a good place themselves, really making a push towards the playoffs.
27:18They obviously have the spell done in Millwall where they look as if they might kick on.
27:22But, you know, I fully agree with you.
27:24I think that if you can get a result there, it could really galvanise this team.
27:29Not that they necessarily need galvanising, they're top of the table, you know.
27:31And I think, you know, you look at the context of the three draws, I actually don't think that all three of them were the worst results.
27:41And, well, obviously the Coventry one was really gallant, really gallant, given the nature of it.
27:45If they'd have won that Coventry game, the other two would have looked magnificent.
27:49Well, maybe it's not magnificent, but they would have been certainly more palatable.
27:52Yeah, much more permissible, aren't they?
27:53If you can go and get three points heading into the international break.
27:57But, you know, it's done, it's how they bounce back from it.
27:59And one of the things I would say about this Sunderland team and the Regis Lebres is that
28:03they really believe that there is a much greater character, a much more obvious grit to them than there was, certainly last season.
28:12Obviously, we know what happened this season.
28:14Yeah, so I think that, you know, they're in a much better place to deal with this sort of thing than they were, say, even 12 months ago, you know.
28:21So we'll see how it pans out. We'll see how it pans out.
28:23Should we brighten things up and talk about the prospect of Joe Bellingham and Chris Rigg leaving the club?
28:30Let's do it. Let's do it. We've all got thoughts on that actually, haven't we?
28:34Yeah, I mean, it feels like you can't move at the moment for transfer reports.
28:39Feels like they're a daily thing at the moment where some club or other is preparing a bid or is sending scouts.
28:46Obviously, Bellingham and Rigg are two players who are likely to be in high demand because you look at the age that they're at,
28:53you look at the profile that they're at, you look at the impact that they're already making on the first team picture in the North East.
28:59And I think it's very understandable that these are the sort of players who you would expect to be linked with an exit from the club.
29:06That being said, James, how much weight do you put into some of these recent reports that we're seeing?
29:14Yeah, I think that there's going to be chat about them because they're both high profile.
29:20I think outlets, including our own, will be stories about them because they are high profile, they're performing well, they're young, they've got price tags on them.
29:29So that interest, that level of noise, I think it's to be expected.
29:33I think it's a little bit of a compliment in a way to how they've both progressed.
29:37It can be massively frustrating for fans and us alike when we want to keep this team together.
29:43But I'm very relaxed about it heading into January.
29:46I don't think some of the fans need to worry too much.
29:48I think there will be bids.
29:51I wouldn't be surprised if bids materialise for both of them because, as I say,
29:56they are performing exceptionally well to the point where we've even really stopped discussing how young they are.
30:01And they are two crucial players, the 19 and 17 years old.
30:06It's madness, really, especially the stature and the maturity of Joe Bellingham.
30:12That red card against QPR, notwithstanding.
30:14So there's going to be interest.
30:17But I'm relaxed about it in terms of January, simply because they've both signed contracts in the summer.
30:23When they signed those contracts, I doubt either of them thought that they would be going six months later.
30:28I think the summer would be a more natural time to consider that.
30:33And I don't think there's even any guarantees they'll go in the summer.
30:36A lot in the summer would depend on which division Sunderland were in, I'm sure.
30:42But yeah, Rick signed a three-year deal and I think Jobb extended his to 2028 from memory.
30:47So I just can't see them going in January.
30:50I think there's going to be a lot of noise.
30:52But unless it's like ridiculous money, and I mean like ridiculous,
30:56what benefit is there to Sunderland to sell in January?
30:59It disrupts the team, it unsettles the fan base.
31:02So unless it's money where we all go, wow, okay, that's like January desperation money,
31:09then yeah, we'll take it and we'll rebuild.
31:12And I'm talking like, I don't know, 30, 40 million or something like that.
31:16Not for both either.
31:17I mean, for one of them.
31:19Is the club going to play that in January from the Premier League?
31:22I'm not really convinced.
31:24You know, the clubs that would be looking to sort of do that date of January,
31:27I think Joe Bellingham and Chris Rigg as good as they are,
31:32can they go into like a relegation-threatened Premier League team who've got money
31:36and can they sort of save their season?
31:38I don't necessarily see that as good as they are.
31:41It's not going to be like an immediate impact signing.
31:44It's going to be sort of a developmental signing for a Premier League club.
31:49So I just, I don't know what you think, Jase, but I just, I can't see it in January.
31:54Yeah, I find a lot of the noise around them mildly annoying that we have to cover it
31:59because I just can't see it.
32:02Like, I just really, really can't see it.
32:04And, you know, we have to write a lot of these stories and we have to cover it ourselves
32:07and stuff, but it's like, you know, Manchester United scouts watching Chris Rigg.
32:12It's like, well, yeah, like, of course they are.
32:15Like all scouts in the country are watching Chris Rigg from further afield than England as well
32:19and have been for some time.
32:21We know Manchester United wanted to sign Chris Rigg before he signed his professional deal at Sunderland.
32:26But the thing that Sunderland had on the side and have on the side is that they're going to play him in the first team.
32:31So in terms of the players' point of view as well, and I want to include Job in this,
32:35like, where's the sense for them to go now either?
32:41It just, it doesn't add up.
32:43It doesn't stack up.
32:44They've stayed for a reason and I'd assume they'd want to finish at least the season
32:50having signed a new contract.
32:51So very long-winded answer, but I don't see them going, but there will be a load of noise
32:57and that's just what January is like, isn't it?
32:59And, you know, I have to accept that we'll probably be part of that noise as well.
33:03So I can't criticise too much because that's the game at the end of the day.
33:09Yeah, I'm sort of tempted to agree with everything you've said.
33:12I think what I sort of add to that is that, you know, you talk about January money and,
33:17you know, potentially a desperate bid coming in, but one thing that you'd have to say about
33:23this Sunderland recruitment model, I know we all sort of shudder when we hear the word
33:27model, but like certainly to its credit, I think that so far they have always sold at
33:36the right time.
33:37They've always maximised the income that they've been able to get from players.
33:40So obviously, you know, talk about the Jack Clark thing over the summer, a lot of people
33:45weren't happy with that fee, but certainly the point at which he left the club probably
33:49made the most sense given the length of contract that he had remaining.
33:53You know, you can sort of quibble about whether it should have been an extra three million
33:56here or whatever, but certainly the point at which they decided to pull the trigger
34:00and sell him and move him on, that was the right time for the club to do that, you know?
34:06I think that for that reason and for the reasons that you mentioned, obviously, you know, the
34:12fact that Rigg has this contract that runs first professional contract, Jorbs is even
34:16longer still, because Sunderland aren't in a position where they have to sell these players,
34:22I really do think that they will hold out.
34:24And I think that if you look at both of them and ask yourself, are they going to be worth
34:30more or less come the end of this season, if they continue to play the way they're playing,
34:35then the answer inevitably has to be that they will be worth more because they are young
34:38players on an upward trajectory who are impressive on a weekly basis.
34:42So I think that Sunderland will be very, very aware of that.
34:45I also think that you're absolutely right, you know, Sunderland can offer them first
34:49team football weekly, first team football, that's going to aid their development, that's
34:53going to only put them in the shop window more if they do have aspirations for a big
34:57move further down the line.
34:59But also I think it's worth pointing out that they're playing in a team who are thriving,
35:05you know, we're not talking about these players being shining lights in a team who are in
35:10the lower mid table or who are battling relegation.
35:13Sunderland are, you know, maybe automatic promotion might be beyond them, maybe it won't
35:19be beyond them.
35:20But certainly, I think at this stage, we at least have to acknowledge that Sunderland
35:23should be playoff contenders at the very least this season, they should be in the conversation
35:29for a top six finish.
35:30So you look at that way and you go, well, surely that's got to be tempting in its own
35:36way, the fact that they're playing for a team who are playing well, who could progress,
35:41who could potentially earn a promotion, you know, so I think that has its benefits too.
35:45And I think when you take all of that into account, yeah, I just struggle, I struggle
35:51to see it, I don't, I think that Sunderland have put themselves in the best possible position
35:56they could to beat these players in January.
35:58And I think you're right, there will be a lot of noise.
36:02But I just think that, like you, I just can't see it.
36:06I just can't see it.
36:07I think that come the end of the season, depending on what division Sunderland are in, then there
36:11might be some really tricky conversations to be had.
36:13But I think you could say that about a lot of players, Dennis Serkin has been the best
36:17fullback in the division for my money.
36:19Well, I was going to mention this, but like, say we're spitballing here and we're getting
36:24probably ahead of ourselves, Phil would most certainly tell us both off, but looking ahead
36:29to the summer, if Sunderland didn't get promoted, you could be looking at, as you mentioned,
36:34Serkin, Hulme, Job, Rigg as players that would potentially have a lot of interest in the
36:39Premier League.
36:40And Sunderland have done reasonably well at having like one big sale a summer, you think
36:45back to Ross Stewart and then it was Jack Clarke.
36:47We know they want to have sort of squad stability, they want to avoid sort of a fire sale, mass
36:53exodus.
36:54They would argue they're not a selling club at all, they sort of sell one player for big
36:58money a summer, they reinvest, you know, it's not really in their DNA to have massive, massive,
37:04massive sales or numerical sales like say Hull did with Filogy and a couple of others.
37:08But you could get in the summer and, you know, Sunderland are also really big on not standing
37:13in players' way when the time has come, that was the promise made to Jack Clarke and it
37:18was the promise kept.
37:19Now, you do worry if Serkin, Hulme, Job and Rigg all have serious Premier League interest
37:25and Sunderland don't want to stand in the way and the money's good, suddenly that's
37:28like four players and you could even throw like a Dan Neal in there.
37:31Now, I'm not saying Sunderland would definitely lose all of them because I don't think they
37:35would, but, you know, we've done so well and they've done so well that failure to get promotion,
37:40it's like all of a sudden you're looking at quite a few and you want to avoid that really.
37:46But, I mean, Sunderland are still in the hunt for the promotion spot at the moment and could
37:52be in the playoffs or whatever.
37:53So, probably are getting a little bit too ahead of ourselves, but it's an interesting
37:56little caveat, I think.
37:58Yeah, absolutely.
37:59And, you know, it's a double-edged sword, isn't it?
38:01You sort of mentioned it before, but it's a compliment, you know, the fact that we're
38:05talking about this young squad, young squad who struggled through the second half of last
38:11season as well.
38:11You know, a lot of these players were in that team, but they've come on leaps and bounds
38:16that they really are flourishing at the moment under Regis Libres.
38:19And I think that, you know, full credit to them, the fact that we're having these conversations
38:24and we're seeing, you know, however speculative they may be, the fact that we're seeing transfer
38:29reports linking Real Madrid with Chris Rigg and Borussia Dortmund with Joe Bellingham.
38:35It's just, yeah, you've got to take it as testament to the way that they've started
38:39the season. And like you say, hopefully it's the start of the season that can then carry
38:44them on to achieve something really quite special over the road.
38:48And, you know, we talk about the model quite a lot, don't we?
38:51And don't get me wrong, there have been serious, serious things to criticise about the model.
38:57You know, maybe the failure at strength under Tony Mowbray when they really needed it in
39:01that January, the summer afterwards wasn't really the best.
39:04There was the striker issue for a long time.
39:08You know, there's been various other things.
39:10But under Christian Smeetman, Stuart Harvey, Kirill Iridreifus as a wider point, we have
39:14gone from, like, Calum McFadzine that left back to Denis Sogdun, you know, Max Power
39:19filling it right back to Trey Hulme.
39:21We've got two of the best young midfielders in the country, or arguably three, actually,
39:25if you still count Dan Neal as young at 22, which you probably have to, in Rigg, Neal
39:30and Bellingham.
39:32So I think, yeah, we've come quite a way.
39:35I'm just thinking of, like, Sunderland's midfielder league, a lot of times, like, this
39:38is with the greatest of respect to these players, but I think the current crop are on a different
39:42level.
39:43But the likes of Josh Scohen and George Dobbs and players of that ilk, it's good to see
39:50how we've progressed.
39:51Yes, there have been some serious missteps along the way, most of them covered on this
39:55podcast quite extensively, but I think, by and large, I think you'd have to say it's
39:59been a net positive, really, considering where Sunderland are at the moment.
40:04Absolutely.
40:05Absolutely.
40:06Shall we wrap it up there?
40:07My laptop's about to die as well, so I think we might have to put it on the fridge.
40:11National world laptops, eh?
40:13National world laptops.
40:14Bloody hell.
40:15That was a choice.
40:16A choice.
40:17Anyway, yeah, that's all we've got time for on this week's show.
40:19Join us again next week when we'll be discussing all of the latest Sunderland news and developments.
40:23In the meantime, you can follow all of the latest Black Cats news on the Sunderland Deco,
40:26or you can give us a follow on social media as well.
40:29Thanks to James, and thank you for listening.
40:31We will be back next week.
40:33Goodbye.