Lt Gen A.K. Bhatt (retd), DG, Indian Space Association speaks with Col Anil Bhat (retd.) on new space-age opportunities for India's armed forces | SAM Conversation
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00:00Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor. Today, we are going to
00:13discuss the new space age opportunities for India's armed forces. And for this discussion,
00:22it's my pleasure to welcome my namesake, Lieutenant General Anil Bhatt, Retired, who
00:30is the Director General of the Indian Space Agency. I think ISRO, the Indian Space Research
00:39Organization, has made some great strides in the past couple of decades. And considering
00:47the kind of problems we had in the past of not really getting a worthwhile political
00:59backing from the governments in earlier decades, and also a lot of pressure, sanctions from
01:11foreign powers, I think we have done tremendously well. And ISRO has proved itself to be an
01:25organization which has not only reached out with modest resources, but has been a great
01:37carrier for foreign countries also to send their products into space. Without delving much,
01:51I'll request General Anil Bhatt to bring us up to date with the latest.
02:00Sir, I'll go into a few very interesting and important things which have happened in India
02:09and in the world. Of course, to start with, I should talk of ISRO, which had a very humble
02:17beginning, where they used to launch sounding rockets. And in 1963, the first sounding rocket,
02:25which we launched from Thumba, was borrowed from the Americans. Some explosive for it was
02:33given by the French. And interestingly, it was carried in a Soviet helicopter to that location.
02:39Great.
02:40So, we literally had a cooperation of three different space nations, space powers at that
02:48time to help us. But as you know, just six years after that, the Americans landed on the moon. So,
02:57you can see the gap which ISRO had with the Americans. But the success story is that last
03:04year, Chandrayaan-3, with a landing on the southern hemisphere of the moon, is the first
03:12to have a soft landing there. This is how fast in technology, in space, ISRO has brought us. It's
03:22been a great achievement done on a very frugal budget. We know about Chandrayaan, we know about
03:30the Aditya mission, we know about our mission to Mars, all of them very unique. Technology at the
03:39lowest cost to achieve the best. Now, one thing which happened around 2000 in the world was, as
03:46they call it, the new space age, where NASA, and even in Europe, the government started opening
03:55space to private players. And that brought in new kind of industrialists, very imaginative
04:03industrialists in the West. And the leaders of that were Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and the owner
04:11of Virgin Galactic. They were the ones who really brought space and as of today, in competition,
04:20they are even ahead of NASA. While this was happening in the world, in India also, in 2020
04:27June, the Prime Minister took a very bold historic decision. And what the decision was that he
04:35announced that now space in India, which was a static sector, will be opened to private players.
04:45From his announcement to today, there have been great strides which have taken place.
04:51Firstly, we have a space policy, which is the most forward looking policy
04:57in the world. In fact, it allows non-government entities, basically meaning public sector,
05:04private sector and startups to do everything in space, be it in communication, be it in navigation,
05:11be it in ISR. And even the last thing what it allows is asteroid mining and landing on the
05:18moon if private players can do it. So this is what the government has opened space to the private
05:24players too. Along with it, they opened an organisation, a new organisation called InSpace,
05:32which is the regulator and promoter and authoriser of anything to do in private
05:40or space. Fortunately in this, my organisation, Indian Space Association, was also formed around
05:48the same time after the Prime Minister's decision. And what we could do with the Ministry of Defence
05:54was lay down 75 defence space challenges. What were they? They were the aspirations of the military,
06:04of the armed forces, of what do they require in future, be it in communication, be it in P&T,
06:12be it in ground stations. They laid down 75 different things which they wanted to. And why
06:19are they called defence challenges? Because they are under a scheme called IDEX, where 1 crore,
06:2610 crore or even 25 crore are given to whoever wins the challenge. And this is a permission for
06:33co-production. Now from 2000, when the private sector was not there, or if there were any
06:42suppliers to ISRO, they had no idea what did the defence forces require. To 2022, when the Prime
06:50Minister announced these 75 defence challenges, every private player in India is aware of what
06:57the defence forces require. Things like launch on demand, that is called responsive launch.
07:05And what it means is that as soon as a war starts, there is a particular area which the
07:12defence forces want to see, maybe some forward area of Leh in Ladakh by the army, or some spot
07:19maybe in Malacca Strait by the Navy. Immediately rockets could be launched, satellites will be
07:27launched to look over that area. Now that capability is being developed along with
07:33private space. So what has happened in the last 4 years is the government has laid down great
07:40opportunities for private players. The defence forces have been able to declare and lay down
07:47on the table what do they require, what do they expect from the industry. Along with that,
07:53the famous PSLV and GSLV are now in future...
08:00If you could please expand on the abbreviation.
08:07Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle and GSLV, Geo Satellite Launch Vehicle.
08:15These are vehicles, the PSLV has a certain capacity, GSLV has more capacity. But the
08:23workhorse of India is the PSLV, which has had more than 50 successful launches. And
08:31till today it is going on. Now the next five PSLVs which will be made are being made in
08:38collaboration with the private sector. HAL and L&T has been given a contract to make the first
08:46five PSLVs. It is a contract of 850 crores. And the next step is the GSLV, which is the biggest
08:54launch vehicle India has, will also be made by public-private partnership.
09:00And in future, the next launches for the next five to eight years will all be done in the
09:07private domain. Two years back, ISRO also found another small rocket, a new launch vehicle was
09:17made that is called the SSLV, Small Satellite Launch Vehicle. Because now the requirements was,
09:26a PSLV or a GSLV is like a bus. It has a number of satellites in it, and those satellites are
09:34launched. Like India, the largest number was 106 satellites, which was a record for a long time.
09:41A total largest number of satellites being launched by one launch vehicle. But in modern
09:47times, there are requirements by different companies to launch their satellites in a short
09:52time, and launch at different heights, maybe in the low Earth orbit, the middle of medium Earth
09:58orbit or in the geosynchronous orbit. So now SSLV is the preferred vehicle, a smaller vehicle. And
10:07so SSLV was launched successfully by ISRO. And now this technology is being transferred to the
10:13private sector, that they can commercialize it. So, what ISRO has done is, they have launched
10:22we are looking in the future from the private sector is, to be a supplier for the military,
10:29for the defense forces, as well as be a global supplier. Also, yes.
10:37No, I thought let's, we can link that up. On 8th October, this year, 24, the Cabinet Committee for
10:47Security headed by the Prime Minister, Mr. Narendra Modi, approved of phase three of the
10:54space-based surveillance, which involves launching of 52 satellites along the borders of China and
11:03Pakistan. And out of these 52, 52 will be low Earth orbit and geosynchronous orbit.
11:1321 satellites will be made by ISRO and 31 by private companies. Am I right?
11:20Yes. So, I would like to expand on this. Firstly, the government's aim now is to create
11:32capabilities in the private sector, that they are able to meet the needs of the defense forces,
11:40as well as the commercial sector. While ISRO, as per the government's policy,
11:47is required to look at exploratory science, go to Moon, Mars and beyond. After ISRO has made
11:57developed a technology that needs to be transferred to the private sector.
12:01Now, SBS-3, as you were mentioning, it has a plan of 52 satellites, which are mostly for ISR,
12:12that is Intelligence, Surveillance and Racking. And these satellites will be of different kinds
12:19of sensors, Earth observation sensors, SAR sensors, which can see in day and night,
12:24and other kinds of hyperspectral sensors. Now, the faith of the government
12:31in the private sector is established by this, that out of 52,
12:3732 or 31 satellites will be made in the private sector.
12:44Yes. And what we hear is, they would be giving this contract to three to four companies.
12:50Because what has happened in the last three, four years,
12:53we have three companies which have already launched satellites. One of them is Pixel,
13:01another company is Dhruva, another company is Ajista. And there are more other companies,
13:07more companies ready to launch satellites. The plan is to give them this contract.
13:14Initially, they will be making a few satellites to see and test that they meet the requirements
13:19of the Indian Armed Forces. And then of course, the complete contract for 31 satellites will be
13:25given to them. So, in a few years, a constellation of satellites, which meets the requirement of the
13:33armed forces would be Indian made satellites with a large number in the private sector.
13:40What is, is there also a latest launch by, in November, on the GSAT-20 launched by SpaceX?
13:54Yes, sir. Now, one thing and if you have been following space,
14:02the capacities or the biggest satellite which can be carried by GSLV is limited to a certain
14:12amount of weight. Now, this GSAT-20, which is around 540 kgs, and especially to be launched
14:19in the geosynchronous orbit, this capacity is not there with the rockets, which we presently possess.
14:27Of course, in the future, we are planning for a new generation launch vehicle.
14:32But previously, whenever we have been having launch of this weight and this size of satellites,
14:39we've been doing it from Orion space, or from other foreign agencies. This time,
14:45the best offer we have got, and the most convenient has been from SpaceX. And that is why about
14:515 to 6 months back, ISRO decided to launch GSAT-20 or GSAT-N2 from SpaceX,
15:00which has been successfully launched.
15:02Is there, as far as, you know, in 2020, I think at Galwan, we had a problem of
15:14not knowing exactly what the Chinese are doing or when they were doing. Can you throw any light on
15:22whether with our present capabilities, we won't have such a problem?
15:30Definitely, sir. What you are saying is, of course, I do not know the specifics of that.
15:36But with the revisit time, you are right, because the revisit time which we have,
15:48and with the number of satellites we have, we cannot cover an area like Galwan with a revisit
15:55time of 10 minutes, 15 minutes, or in the best case persistent, that we continuously cover it.
16:02Like, just to explain it to you, sir, if one spot, say, lay has to be kept under observation,
16:10it will require eight satellites in the orbit, one after the other to cover one point. And that
16:18would be equivalent to the footprint of the satellite what it can see. If the area is larger,
16:23it is eight multiplied by two, three, four, or whatever. Now, when SBS-3 comes with 52 satellites,
16:32some in the geosynchronous orbit, seeing a larger area, some in the low Earth orbit,
16:38being closer, seeing a smaller area, but having more accuracy, a combination of this has been
16:44worked out scientifically. And by that, what would be at least an ideal requirement for having a
16:51better visit time, revisit time. And that is why this number of 52 has been achieved. Maybe it will
16:57require a little more in the future, but 52 is the bare minimum requirement. Okay. And lastly, I think
17:04if we go back to the test we had at Pokhran, what is it, it was called the Smiling Buddha.
17:17Yes, you are right. You are right, sir. We were able to, well, we were able to keep the Americans
17:28in the dark. I mean, it just turned out that they didn't know exactly what and when we did,
17:33what we did. Because they also did not have a revisit time, which was of lesser of five or
17:4110 minutes or 20 minutes or half an hour. Not enough time over the target. So, we knew the
17:50gaps between when the satellite was looking at Pokhran and not, and we took advantage of that.
17:55No, I think that was, that was an achievement. Yes, it was a brilliant idea by our scientists
18:02that time, our people who were doing this. And also it had the involvement of the Indian Army
18:07sappers. Yes. Well, anything further you would like to add, Gilbert?
18:18So, sir, today in any war which is going to get fought in the future,
18:25space is one to assist the three armed forces for better communication, for better navigation,
18:36as well as providing them an ISR, which is persistent, meaning you can look at the enemy
18:44anywhere on your border for 24 hours. And more and more with the war which has took place in Ukraine,
18:52this has become very clear. Today, both sides are totally visible to each other because of
19:00the capabilities of satellites you have. In fact, even China on the South China Sea
19:06has a revisit time of 10 to 12 minutes. And that is why this capability is an opportunity as well
19:19as a challenge. Opportunity because you can see everything of the enemy from when he takes off
19:26from his mainland itself or a challenge because he can also see into whatever we are doing.
19:33And hence, much more smaller forces, spread out forces have to move anywhere on the border,
19:41be it the western border or the northern border. Another dimension which has now come into space
19:48and which we have to look at is private players have become critical elements of the space war.
19:56In Ukraine, Russian war, the capabilities of Ukraine were maybe one satellite,
20:04but they have in the ultimate taken much more advantage of space
20:09because a private player like Starlink would provide them communication when their communication
20:17was jammed. The entire communication of the Ukrainian army has been supported by a private
20:24player called Starlink. Similarly, ISR is being provided by three private companies called Maxar,
20:34Planet M, Okai. They are all three private companies. So, this is a new dimension of war
20:40in space where larger assets are being provided by private players. And that is why the development
20:47of private capability in India is equally important.
20:53Thank you, Jain Bhatt. Thank you for a very enlightening session on this very
21:03exciting period of achievements for us. Thank you.
21:11Thank you, sir. And it's always a pleasure to be there with South Asia Monitor
21:15and with the senior Anil Bhatt.