The Patriots MUST Pursue Mike Vrabel | Pats Interference w/ Callahan & Kyed - video Dailymotion

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The Boston Herald's Doug Kyed rejoins the show to cover a sad state of the Patriots, from Jerod Mayo's latest head-scratching comments Monday, whether Drake Maye sits on Sunday and the Patriots tank for the No. 1 overall pick, why the Krafts are in a no-win situation and why they should pursue Mike Vrabel. Later, the guys answer your mailbag questions. ************************************************ Patriots Content Brought to you by.... 💰 Prize Picks - https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/CLNS Download the app today and use Code CLNS at PrizePicks.com/CLNS & Get $50 instantly when you play $5!  🎫 Gametime - https://gametime.co Take the guesswork out of buying NFL tickets with Gametime. Download the Gametime app, create an account, and use code CLNS for $20 off your first purchase. Download Gametime today. Terms apply. What time is it? Gametime!

Transcript

00:00:00Well, you know, I'd love to say happy Monday, but we can't for obvious reasons.

00:00:18So we're going to settle a day early, recording Monday, midday, for an early happy new year

00:00:22to, as always, people's favorite guest, my coworker at the Herald, Doug Kide, talk a

00:00:26little Pats.

00:00:27And, uh, I don't know, as always the last few weeks, not the football itself, because

00:00:34I wrote about that 40 to seven game, rewatched every single snap.

00:00:38You watched it again.

00:00:39It's a miserable experience, but we'll just chalk it up to one day at a 366 this year

00:00:44that like the job kind of sucks, because there's also one game left out of the 17, the Patriots

00:00:50have played and no one knows what the hell is going to happen after that.

00:00:53Are you ready to dive into pretty much everything but the football?

00:00:57Yeah, I think so.

00:00:58We, I mean, we also don't know what's going to happen in this final game, which we'll

00:01:01get into it a little bit as I think John may have said about 15 times this morning, everything's

00:01:07on the table.

00:01:08So who knows?

00:01:09We might see, uh, I don't even know, you might see Ben Brown or quarterback, uh, but yeah,

00:01:14I'm ready to get into the non-football stuff, I guess.

00:01:16I mean, um, we'll see how much of it there is.

00:01:19There's a lot of unknowns and I guess what happens in week 18 is going to answer those,

00:01:25but I don't know.

00:01:26I mean, number one, overall pick, if anything, like I feel like the, um, I don't know, the,

00:01:33like the spirits are higher after, after Sunday's results now, um, even after this week than

00:01:38they've been in past weeks.

00:01:39Yeah.

00:01:40I say this because, you know, folks who listen on Mondays expect full film review.

00:01:46It's me hanging out with myself.

00:01:47I just couldn't do it.

00:01:49Like we're going to do a version of Andrew drinks alone and talks to himself probably

00:01:53next week at some point, the end of the season, everyone deserves a beer, especially after

00:01:57the holidays.

00:01:58But today we are going to go backwards in a way just to hit quickly on what did happen

00:02:03Saturday in the fall, because my column after that was just to say, look, if Mike Fable

00:02:08wants to come to new England, and that's a guy who will have interest from a lot of different

00:02:11franchises with head coaching vacancies coming up, the craft should give him the job.

00:02:16And you and I, even in the 48 hours, since that game started, that prompted that column,

00:02:21uh, we'll talk about it because we haven't actually talked about it since we have Gerard

00:02:24males comments this morning, which shocker, there are some more question marks after he

00:02:28gave some answers that didn't make a whole lot of sense.

00:02:31And it feels like we're picking on Gerard, but for the most part, he was short to the

00:02:35point deflected, and then just kept going the eye.

00:02:39And as I said, put his foot in his mouth.

00:02:41Then we're going to talk about what do you want to do Sunday?

00:02:43Because as you said, Patriots right now, the number one overall pick Joe Milton, come

00:02:47on down.

00:02:48And then Monday, black Monday and beyond what his ownership going to do this, uh, plus anything

00:02:52else.

00:02:53And a lot of mailbag questions because you guys were great.

00:02:54And if you do not hear your question answered, blame Doug, because these mailbags always

00:03:00get a lot bigger when I wrote them in with that initial tweet, I'm like, Oh, what do

00:03:03you want to hear?

00:03:04Uh, so not, not my fault.

00:03:05So let's start with the fable stuff because here's, here's where I landed.

00:03:10I would not fire Gerard Mayo justifiably.

00:03:13I still think that scratching an itch versus enacting a solution at the end of the season.

00:03:19This has been an underwhelming, disappointing, terrible season for the Patriots.

00:03:24Okay.

00:03:25Mike Frabel is an outlier in two really important senses.

00:03:28Number one, he's a head coaching candidate with a career winning record available on

00:03:33the market.

00:03:34That's a rare commodity at this point.

00:03:36Number two, he's someone that wants to be here.

00:03:40And I think the notion that like, why would the crafts keep go shopping down the aisle

00:03:43where it's all of their past trophies and goodies and players and coaches and just stick

00:03:47with the system.

00:03:48Mike Frabel has not been employed in New England in 15 years.

00:03:52Those 15 years more than the eight that he played here are the reason he's attractive.

00:03:56Different coaching philosophies, techniques, styles.

00:03:59He's done this before and beaten the Patriots twice, including knocking them out at the

00:04:02end of the dynasty era.

00:04:03And number three is just a simple fact.

00:04:05If anyone who runs a business, obviously not speaking from experience.

00:04:09If you can get an upgrade in a certain area with a certain person or position, you go

00:04:15and do it because it's business and this isn't personal.

00:04:19So to grant Gerard some grace here, the guy had five years of coaching experience before

00:04:25he became one of 32 head coaches.

00:04:28Now, you know, I'm serious in the national football league.

00:04:31Okay.

00:04:32That guy's not supposed to succeed.

00:04:34He's not set up to succeed.

00:04:35And that's a raw deal you get fired after one year.

00:04:37But Mike Frabel is better than you now.

00:04:39He, I believe, will be much better over the near future.

00:04:43And I just got to a point watching that game going, Doug, I don't know what the future

00:04:47holds, but I have no good argument for if Mike Frabel, who reportedly does have interest,

00:04:52wants to come back home, the Crafts shouldn't just jump on it because of what he will do

00:04:56to fix the culture issues here, raise the floor of the roster and to have the best quarterback,

00:05:01by the way, in Drake May.

00:05:02He had ever coached as someone who's been to an AFC championship game, won a coach of

00:05:06the year and earned the number one seed in the AFC.

00:05:10Number one thing I would say is that it's been said over and over again, that the plan

00:05:14here was that Bill would coach one more year, Bill Dodgick would coach one more year.

00:05:18Then you go to Drodd-Mayo.

00:05:19And it's pretty clear that from year one, Drodd-Mayo wasn't ready for it, hadn't been

00:05:23coaching long enough, hadn't been groomed for it.

00:05:26It didn't work out the way as planned.

00:05:29And since you rushed him into the job, there's no guarantee that all of a sudden now learning

00:05:33on the job, he's even going to be ready for it in year two, year three, whatever it is.

00:05:38You know what Mike Vrabel is.

00:05:39You know that he's ready.

00:05:40I think the second thing is, if you're the Crafts, you have to ask yourself, what does

00:05:45Drodd-Mayo do better than Mike Vrabel?

00:05:48Or what could he do better than Mike Vrabel?

00:05:50And if you're struggling to come up with answers, then I think this becomes a little bit more

00:05:53clear.

00:05:54And the third thing, and probably the most important thing, is that the staff that Mike

00:05:59Vrabel could assemble is much better than the staff that Drodd-Mayo assembled back when

00:06:06he became head coach in January, because he had so few contacts around the NFL.

00:06:11They had to kind of scramble and put pieces together.

00:06:15Guys that, you know, Elliott Wolfe knew, guys that Alex Van Pelt knew.

00:06:20It wasn't a cohesive way of structuring a coaching staff.

00:06:24And Mike Vrabel, who's coached in Tennessee, coached at Ohio State, coached in Houston,

00:06:30he just knows so many more people.

00:06:32And he's had people under his staff before who have won football games.

00:06:37You know that the floor of the staff that Vrabel can put together is much higher than

00:06:41that of the Patriots staff right now.

00:06:43And the ceiling is much higher as well.

00:06:45Yeah, it's just, so do you co-sign on that?

00:06:48Because again, we haven't talked about it and it's a hard thing.

00:06:50It's a big if, right?

00:06:51This guy will have opportunities with several different franchises, he'll be able to command

00:06:55a salary and come in with that resume that he might be a top 10 NFL coach right as he

00:06:59walks in the door.

00:07:00And I get he had two losing seasons, but you and I haven't talked about it.

00:07:03Like you sound on board with that notion if he wants to come back and they're a priority

00:07:07that you would do it.

00:07:08Yeah.

00:07:09I think there's a much clearer path to winning if Mike Vrabel is your head coach in 2025.

00:07:15And I'm sure that the Crafts still see a lot of upside in Drodd-Mayo as a head coach.

00:07:20I just haven't necessarily seen it this season and maybe they still do.

00:07:25We're going to get into more Black Monday stuff later on, right?

00:07:29Because I do have something else to say on this.

00:07:31Yeah.

00:07:32I just, I wanted to start there because it sounds like the easy, simple solution.

00:07:35And there are people again, who would push back and be like, what's so great about Mike

00:07:37Vrabel?

00:07:38He's not God's gift to coaching.

00:07:40Okay.

00:07:41But I know what he is, is a guy who is not going to suffer from the fundamental breakdowns

00:07:45you've seen on defense or the culture stuff.

00:07:47And I'm not talking about calling out players to the media.

00:07:49That's not inherently a negative, right?

00:07:52It's not about being a conservative in-game coach.

00:07:55It's about a guy who comes in, had winning records right away, knows what his culture

00:08:00is, has the experience of doing this as a head coach and the Patriots do move on from

00:08:03Drodd-Mayo.

00:08:04I want someone more experienced than him, or certainly someone who's been through it.

00:08:07And you might be, oh, what about Ben Johnson?

00:08:10I've said this before.

00:08:11The analogy is a coordinator is really like the head of a department in high school.

00:08:16You're teaching English.

00:08:17You're telling other people how to run that department of the entire operation.

00:08:22The head coach is the principal.

00:08:24There's not a whole lot of hands-on teaching, instruction, coaching, obviously in this case,

00:08:28when you're the head coach.

00:08:30But you're setting the expectation, the practices, the schedule, everything else about the organization

00:08:34going down.

00:08:35I know how well Ben Johnson could tell me about Shakespeare.

00:08:37I have no idea how he's going to set everything else from the tension on down deal with parents

00:08:42as a potential head coach.

00:08:43I know what Mike Vrabel does.

00:08:44I would bring him in right now.

00:08:46But for now, Drodd-Mayo has at least one more game as head coach.

00:08:49This morning, he says everything's on the table for the finale against the Bills, Sunday

00:08:54at 1 o'clock, by the way, because that was not determined for the folks who missed it.

00:08:58And that includes possibly sitting Drake May.

00:09:00He said to his understanding, Drake is not in the concussion protocol, but if he is,

00:09:04he would learn later today.

00:09:05Monday, he dismissed the notion that Daniel Ekowale brought up to me one-on-one, that

00:09:10effort was a problem against the Chargers, and still didn't really want to talk about

00:09:14for Monterey Stevenson starting when he told the local radio broadcast and the national

00:09:19TV broadcasters that Antonio Gibson would start as a point to make about accountability.

00:09:26So of all that, plus the stuff that he said on the EI, where do you want to start?

00:09:31The effort thing, I think, is the most interesting to me because we've talked a lot about the

00:09:34Stevenson-Gibson thing.

00:09:36And I don't know, it feels like a minor thing, but it's just a bigger microcosm of everything

00:09:42else that's happened this season.

00:09:43The effort thing was just so bizarre because he said multiple times that he didn't see

00:09:47effort issues.

00:09:48It was more about execution.

00:09:49Didn't see effort issues, more about execution.

00:09:51And then Jermaine Wiggins asks him a follow-up about the Daniel Ekowale comments to you.

00:09:56He said, you know, there were times when on field goal block, guys weren't getting their

00:10:01hands up.

00:10:02But for the most part, guys were trying.

00:10:04It's like you either have to go all in and say effort was not a problem.

00:10:09I did not see a single issue with effort, no effort issues, all execution, nothing

00:10:14to do with effort, or you have to kind of own it and be like, yeah, here's an example.

00:10:20On field goal block, guys weren't getting their hands up.

00:10:23So I preached to the guys after the game, you have to try, otherwise you're not going

00:10:26to be here.

00:10:27Like you either have to go all in on one direction or the other.

00:10:30You can't pretend like there's no effort issues, specifically bring one up and then still try

00:10:36to downplay it.

00:10:38And I don't know, all of these things are obviously minor in a vacuum, but there's just

00:10:41been so many instances at this point that you're just like, what are you doing?

00:10:47It's week 17 now, you can't still make those mistakes.

00:10:50And I think that one thing that really struck me about it is that Mayo's now very clearly

00:10:54trying to do this Bill Belichick impression of say as little as possible, say yes to re-watch

00:11:00the film, like rely on phrases like coach's decision, say there's a lot on the table,

00:11:05all these things.

00:11:06Best interest of the football team.

00:11:07Best interest in the football team, all those different things.

00:11:10But as soon, literally the second that it came out of his mouth of him saying, you know,

00:11:15on field goal block, there was times the guys didn't get their hands up.

00:11:17The first thought I had was Bill Belichick would never say that.

00:11:20And you don't have to, you don't have to be Bill Belichick.

00:11:24Like I thought that one of the, that was one of the positives that Drodd Mayo was doing

00:11:27through the first, let's say 14 weeks of the season is that he wasn't just trying to do

00:11:31the Bill Belichick thing because it didn't work for Matt Patricia, didn't work for Josh

00:11:34McDaniels, didn't work for, for all these different guys who have come from the Patriot

00:11:37system.

00:11:38So Drodd Mayo was trying something different and now he's kind of trying to do Belichick,

00:11:43but also saying things that Belichick would just absolutely never say.

00:11:48And that's why it's not working because, and it goes back to the Vrabel thing.

00:11:51Like Vrabel has a voice, Vrabel knows how to handle the media, Vrabel knows how to handle

00:11:55the team.

00:11:56I think that that's something that Drodd Mayo is still really struggling with.

00:11:59And if it hasn't clicked through 17 weeks, I'm not sure if there's a guarantee it's going

00:12:04to click by next season either.

00:12:05Yeah.

00:12:06And I would say it goes back earlier this season because Lord knows this is the most

00:12:11overly referenced column ever written, but, and I'm the one at fault for that.

00:12:15Like the media messaging was an issue back in the spring and then in the summer and about

00:12:19important things like the quarterback competition and what mattered and what would factor into

00:12:23that decision.

00:12:24And then even as that went on, they pivoted to Drake Mays like, Oh yeah, of course the

00:12:27offensive line was a factor.

00:12:28What do you mean?

00:12:29Like, it's okay.

00:12:30Right.

00:12:31The football coaches lie to the media.

00:12:32I am not so sensitive.

00:12:34My sensibilities are not at the feet of someone telling the truth the whole time.

00:12:38Football coaches lie.

00:12:39Bill Belichick lied.

00:12:40Drodd Mayo has entitled to lie in the best interest of the football team.

00:12:43But the full quote, which you tweeted from that comment in WEI about the field goal blocks,

00:12:49quote, it's hard when you know the score kind of gets out of control to keep pushing on.

00:12:53And I would say the majority, most of, if not all the guys were still going out there

00:12:58trying to make a play.

00:12:59So when you say majority, most of, if not all, we're still trying to go out there and

00:13:04make a play.

00:13:05That means some that weren't.

00:13:07And it's not just Daniel quality one-on-one to me.

00:13:10It's Jonathan Jones saying after the game, Hey, when the, when the going gets hard, we

00:13:14go home.

00:13:15We're a team that can't overcome that adversity.

00:13:17So I just, the importance of this is take the full media and the reporting and the listening

00:13:23of this and the recording, whatever it is out of the equation.

00:13:27If he's this inconsistent with people who have a limited time with him, okay.

00:13:32Asking simple questions.

00:13:34What is it like with the football team?

00:13:36Because these answers stem from what he thinks, what he believes, and when he's prepared and

00:13:41organized.

00:13:42And clearly to me, what this says is he's not organized enough or prepared enough or

00:13:47sticking to the same core concepts, except for the last couple of weeks.

00:13:50And you're like, yeah, it stinks.

00:13:51We're not getting the same Gerard and his actual thoughts and answers, but that's his

00:13:54prerogative.

00:13:55To close up, to clam up.

00:13:58And then he opens up again.

00:13:59And you're going, I don't like what's inside.

00:14:00Like it's just, it's, it's bad.

00:14:04Um, Drake may though, being on the table as someone who might sit on Monday, good decision,

00:14:12bad decision.

00:14:13What do you think he does?

00:14:14What does that mean?

00:14:15Well, I mean, they had the number one overall pick right now.

00:14:18I would start to a million, like a hundred percent.

00:14:20They're like, there's no hesitation in my mind about that.

00:14:22It's tricky though, obviously, because like drawing Mayo's job might be at stake in this

00:14:26game.

00:14:27So if you're drawn Mayo, obviously you want to go out and look as good as you can demolish

00:14:31the Buffalo bills, backups, whatever it is.

00:14:34Like I understand the point that you're making, but if, if beating the bills, JV team sways

00:14:41the craps and maybe it does, cause there's a real distinction between what you and I

00:14:44think should happen and what will happen.

00:14:46What's the most likely bet?

00:14:48I think they should move on.

00:14:49Mike Bravo.

00:14:50I don't think the crafts are going to fire.

00:14:51That's my bet right now.

00:14:52But like, what do you, do you think if they win that that's meaningful?

00:14:57I mean, it's not to me, but for Gerard Mayo, he has to be looking at this as being meaningful.

00:15:01Like he's not going to try and lose this game because for him, he's probably just like,

00:15:04well, that will increase my chances that I get fired.

00:15:07But so unless there's some sort of agreement between Mayo and the crafts of like, listen,

00:15:13we want to get this number one overall pick.

00:15:14Like this is going to be the best thing for the future of the franchise.

00:15:18We got to put out Joe Milton.

00:15:19We got to start, you know, Tyrese Robinson at garlic.

00:15:23We got to, we got to just play our backups and, and try to try to get that number one

00:15:27overall pick.

00:15:28Unless there's some sort of agreement, then there are these, like these factors are at

00:15:32odds where like Gerard Mayo wants to keep his job, Gerard Mayo wants to win and everyone

00:15:38else should be trying to buy for that number one overall pick.

00:15:41Obviously the players want to play well in this game, but no, I mean, I think that there's

00:15:46enough of an excuse to start Joe Milton, just to say like, we've seen enough of Drake

00:15:51May.

00:15:52We know that what we have in Drake May, he just either got concussed or almost got concussed

00:15:56against the chargers.

00:15:58No use of risking me in this game.

00:16:00We want to know if Joe Milton's can be our backup quarterback in the future.

00:16:03We want to know what we have in him.

00:16:05We want to know if he's a potential trade piece in the future.

00:16:08Let's put them out there because the bills are also going to be playing their backup.

00:16:12So I think there is enough of a case to do this without being like, we're fully tanking,

00:16:18that it makes sense.

00:16:19And for me, a hundred percent, I am doing that.

00:16:22You want the number one overall pick.

00:16:24You'd probably like to see what you have in Joe Milton.

00:16:26And he'd like to play Jalen Polk and Jayvon Baker and all of these guys as much as possible,

00:16:30just to see what you have for the future.

00:16:32I completely agree.

00:16:33You just have to ask yourself, what does a win of Sunday matter relative to what the

00:16:38number one overall pick in the draft could become?

00:16:41Even if you just stick and pick, that's a guy who's there for five years.

00:16:45That's someone you're selecting as the best player in the draft who will obviously fill

00:16:49a position of need because the only positions in the Patriots roster, aside from quarterback,

00:16:54are positions of need.

00:16:55And so, or you could trade back-

00:16:56But what does that matter to Jordan Mayhew if he's not back?

00:16:59You know?

00:17:00Yeah.

00:17:01Right.

00:17:02Well, and that's the thing.

00:17:03You mentioned if the Crafts and Mayhew have this agreement.

00:17:06He was asked last question of the day by our guy, Mark Daniels, like, have you received

00:17:10assurances of return?

00:17:11Here was his answer.

00:17:12Quote, I'm always in constant communication with ownership, and I feel like we're still

00:17:16on the same page.

00:17:17So, a non-answer, but he seems to indicate, yeah, I feel like I'm going to come back.

00:17:22You know?

00:17:23And they should absolutely start Joe Milton on Sunday.

00:17:28They should absolutely play the kids.

00:17:30They've sold this messaging from the beginning of the season.

00:17:33We're going to develop, find our foundational pieces.

00:17:35There's enough there to sell it.

00:17:36It still doesn't mean, though, that the veterans in that room know what's going on.

00:17:40And any cultural fissures right now are only going to deepen with that happening.

00:17:47Because I don't think he can sell, whether it's Keone White or some other people on defense

00:17:51or even on offense, his message and vision right now.

00:17:55What's the cost of that?

00:17:56I don't know.

00:17:57Guys will go home after Sunday.

00:17:58But it's just, it leads to this, I think, kind of, I don't want to say like a depression

00:18:04in the building, but this ugly feel in the building.

00:18:08Even losing a side of like, we're going to do this for a guy that's not even in the building

00:18:11to get a pick that you don't even really care about, because you guys aren't good enough

00:18:14and this season sucked.

00:18:18For the people on the outside, and I am curious what you think about this, how ugly could

00:18:23this be at, say, 138 on Sunday afternoon in Foxborough?

00:18:29Where the home team fans, let me just lay it out, and I want you to fill in the gaps.

00:18:34The home team fans want them to lose.

00:18:35I think most of them do.

00:18:37Everyone heard or reported on, Drot and Mayo heard the chants, fire Mayo, at the end of

00:18:42the game last weekend.

00:18:43Anyone else in that building now is emboldened to do the same after the first freaking punt

00:18:47of the game.

00:18:48Then you have the Bills backups, who are probably more talented than the Patriots starters,

00:18:51and the Patriots just don't play their starters.

00:18:52They're at risk of losing again.

00:18:54If this is a big deficit and a half-empty stadium cheering Fitherhead to coach, and

00:18:59then you have the two hometown fans actively rooting for their team to lose, what kind

00:19:04of black mark is that for the franchise and ownership?

00:19:07Yeah, and I mean, that's a big thing, is that if you put Joe Milton out there, I think it

00:19:13does lessen the fire Mayo chants.

00:19:15It does lessen the boos.

00:19:17It does lessen everything that might come with it if you're trying as hard as you can

00:19:21in that game and still potentially lose to Mitchell Trubisky and the Bills backups.

00:19:27In some ways, yeah, maybe it is the best thing for Drot and Mayo to even keep his job by

00:19:32putting Joe Milton out there.

00:19:34Honestly, now I'm kind of changing my tune on this because, yeah, you probably won't

00:19:38hear as many fire Mayo chants, and at least if you lose in that game, then there's an

00:19:42excuse for it.

00:19:44So I don't know.

00:19:45It's something that Drot and Mayo and Alex Van Pelt and all these guys have to make a

00:19:48tough decision on.

00:19:49I will say that Alex Van Pelt, throughout the season, has been pretty selfless and has

00:19:54really put the team above himself as far as not putting Drake May at risk, waiting to

00:20:00start Drake May over Jacoby Brissett, and I could see him doing something similar now

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00:21:28PrizePix, run your game.

00:21:30It's a great point about Alex Van Pelt because he was asked right before the Bills game.

00:21:35They run him four times, two sneaks, two zone reads.

00:21:37Why don't you just want to run the quarterback who can clearly run?

00:21:40You ran in the preseason and could help an offense that right now needs all the help

00:21:44it can get.

00:21:45He was like, it's to protect the kid.

00:21:47And we know Mayo, either through the veiled, you said it, not me, or comments before being

00:21:52like, yeah, I'm on board.

00:21:53Yeah, we should do that.

00:21:54He's a really talented kid.

00:21:55He's got good legs.

00:21:56I love that about him.

00:21:57Wanted that to happen.

00:21:58I would not be surprised if that was directed from the top down.

00:22:01But it's a credit to Alex Van Pelt because he was nice to the media, or he's better speaking

00:22:06to us and more direct.

00:22:07If the guy's an adult in a room that is lacking some adults, and that's behind a podium, I

00:22:12think it's in meeting rooms, and he might be the fall guy.

00:22:15I think he will be the fall guy, which brings us to Black Monday.

00:22:20There's going to be change on the staff, and I think we'll find out pretty quickly.

00:22:24If they're consulting with you, though, where do you start and where do you hope to end

00:22:31up understanding that if you fire a coordinator, there's process and hiring, you need some

00:22:35targets.

00:22:36And if you're filling out the staff underneath that, it'll probably be dependent on the coordinator

00:22:40you hire to replace Alex Van Pelt, or DeMarcus Cummins, or even the head coach, if you part

00:22:45with Rod.

00:22:46So no one feels bad for the Crafts, obviously, because they put themselves in this situation.

00:22:50But I do think that this is a tough decision that they have to make.

00:22:55Because I'm going to lay it out.

00:22:57You can't bring back Drodd Mayo, but not Elliot Wolfe.

00:23:02I think that, like, you can't fire Elliot Wolfe, but bring back Mayo.

00:23:07I don't think that makes sense.

00:23:09You probably can't bring back Wolfe, but not bring back Mayo, because there's going to

00:23:14have to be this infrastructure in place with a new head coach and a GM, and you'll have

00:23:18to work together.

00:23:19So that's a tough decision.

00:23:21And you can't bring back DeMarcus Covington, but not Alex Van Pelt.

00:23:26Because the defense has been a much bigger issue.

00:23:28It seems like Alex Van Pelt might become the scapegoat here.

00:23:33But there's a lot of things that, like, you can't do this if you're going to do this,

00:23:35you can do.

00:23:36So I think...

00:23:37Wait, let's stay with the Covington thing, though, because I've said someone's going

00:23:41to get a Rod deal here.

00:23:43And that includes Gerrard.

00:23:44One year, new head coach, shitty roster, like you're supposed to lose.

00:23:48This isn't about fair.

00:23:49Like, I think they could fire Van Pelt and keep Covington, because Gerrard just likes

00:23:53him.

00:23:54And if he has a say, he's going to stick with his guy, no?

00:23:58I don't think you can do it.

00:23:59I think the defense has been so bad.

00:24:01The expectations for the defense were so much higher.

00:24:04This is a unit that everyone was expecting to be top 10 again.

00:24:08They're 30th or whatever it is right now.

00:24:10Yes, they've had injuries, but they have so far underplayed expectations.

00:24:15I don't think you can bring back Demarcus Covington, but fire Alex Van Pelt.

00:24:21I think you either have to fire both coordinators or bring both guys back.

00:24:27Or I guess you could bring back Alex Van Pelt, but not Demarcus Covington.

00:24:32That doesn't seem like a likely scenario here.

00:24:35I mean, the idea of bringing back Demarcus Covington, but hiring this senior defensive

00:24:41coach who has head coaching experience to help out the unit, it's like, okay, well,

00:24:45is that going to be a new coordinator?

00:24:46Or is that just going to be a guy who's helping out Drodmeo and Demarcus Covington?

00:24:50Because yeah, it would make sense, but this defense has just been so bad top to bottom

00:24:56all season that to bring back the more underperforming coordinator over the guy who's actually helped

00:25:03the offense improve and develop Drake May, I don't think you can do it.

00:25:09I just wonder the consequences, the obstacle there you would think is merit and logic.

00:25:18And what I'm saying is if you're an owner, if you're in the NFL, very often these decisions

00:25:23are not made based on merit and logic.

00:25:26It's based on pressure from the fan base in the media.

00:25:29It's based on relationships.

00:25:30It's based on nepotism.

00:25:32And I'm not saying Demarcus Covington couldn't make a year or two leap.

00:25:35It's just to say that wherever he could be next, same with Drodmeo, I don't think he's

00:25:39going to get there in a way that catches up to a theoretical Mike Vrabel and whomever

00:25:43Vrabel's defensive coordinator would want to be, or even a Patrick Graham that Patrick

00:25:46Graham wanted to be here.

00:25:47But then you get into a conversation, you talk about how thorny and complicated this

00:25:51is.

00:25:52I don't know the answer to this question because Patrick Graham left before I came onto the

00:25:55beat here in New England.

00:25:56What if he's a Belichick loyalist?

00:25:58What if he wants nothing to do with Drodmeo?

00:26:01And then you're dealing with not only just a tiny pool of people that know the Patriots

00:26:05defense in the system and want to come back here when Drod's on the hot seat, but also

00:26:10don't have something personal against Drod because they're close with Bill, who obviously

00:26:15was furious and hasn't spoken to Drod since.

00:26:19And I say that to underscore your original point of this is a brutal position that the

00:26:24crafts are in.

00:26:25And I would argue not now, but in a second, they cornered themselves on this.

00:26:32I think that going back to the fairness question, I think it can create culture issues if you

00:26:37bring back Covington and don't bring back Van Pelt, because I do think that you've got

00:26:41guys in the building being like, how did our AVP get fired, but not Covington?

00:26:46What the hell is going on here?

00:26:47When you already have guys like Keon White saying that major changes have to come this

00:26:53off season.

00:26:54You have other guys like Daniel Equality and Jonathan Jones speaking out like, I think

00:26:57it does.

00:26:58The culture is already an issue.

00:27:00And I think that that would only create bigger culture issues.

00:27:04And I think that goes beyond fan base and everything like that.

00:27:07So I think the answer is probably you have to bring back Mayo and Wolf, or you have to

00:27:16clear house.

00:27:18And I know that we haven't really talked about Elliott Wolfe for the front office.

00:27:23I mean, I've been steadfast on this to give a GM one year just seems preposterous.

00:27:31I know that that's not what a lot of people believe.

00:27:33I know that there's a lot of people who think that based on what Elliott Wolfe did this

00:27:37off season, he should be fired.

00:27:39But we don't know what this draft class is going to look like in two years.

00:27:43They smartly underspent in free agency because it was a bad free agent class.

00:27:49And there was no reason to overpay guys that they didn't want to be a part of the future

00:27:55to save money for this off season, next off season, when they can actually build up their

00:28:00team a little bit better.

00:28:02Draft class looks bad, certainly had some misses in free agency.

00:28:06But I think that firing a GM after one year just puts yourself at risk of becoming those

00:28:13like Browns and jets and all those other teams that have changed over year after year

00:28:18after year, because like, all right, so what happens if they're bad again next year?

00:28:22Then you fire your new GM too.

00:28:23It's like, when does that stop at that point?

00:28:25So if they had believed in Elliott Wolfe last off season, then I think that you have to

00:28:31continue that belief and believe in him of what this process is.

00:28:36And I think that you could easily say the same thing about Drodd Mayo.

00:28:39But I just think that there's more chances for a head coach to prove himself over a season

00:28:44than there is for an executive or for a GM.

00:28:47So I don't know.

00:28:49I think the options are either bring back both coordinators or get rid of both coordinators.

00:28:55And I think that just the way the structure is, you almost have to do the same thing with

00:29:01Mayo and Wolfe too, either like bring both guys back or just start over from scratch.

00:29:06Yeah, to wrap up the Wolfe conversation, I think in large part, I agree with you.

00:29:14And I think there are people on the outside going, what are you talking about?

00:29:16Right, yeah.

00:29:17And I understand the frustration.

00:29:20This is nothing personal about Elliott, who like full disclosure, had conversations with.

00:29:24You read some of his comments to me in a one on one before the season and a profile I did

00:29:30on him in March.

00:29:31And in doing that profile, April rather, right before the draft, speaking with several current

00:29:36former NFL GMs, multiple of both, there's a lot of belief in him around the league.

00:29:42And when the job description in year one is to offload the bad contracts, cut the dead

00:29:47weight on the roster, Judith Schuster, Davante Parker, Trent Brown, get out of here, save

00:29:51money and roll it over into 2025.

00:29:53And there's a better free agent class.

00:29:55OK, find the quarterback of the future.

00:29:57Yeah, he's had misses in free agency.

00:30:00Yeah.

00:30:01KJ Osborne was brutal.

00:30:02Jalen Polk has been historically bad, as you've documented very well.

00:30:05Jayvon Baker has been a joke, a guy that was off of some team's draft boards, and you

00:30:09took him in the fourth round.

00:30:10OK, and Matt McConkey was right there, someone I argued for.

00:30:13Every GM misses, every front office misses.

00:30:15But the only way you learn if they have more hits than misses relative to average GMs is

00:30:20to get a larger sample size.

00:30:22Yeah.

00:30:22And this is not an inexperience issue or perhaps an immaturity issue, as far as I know, like

00:30:28it is with Gerard Mayo, five years of coaching experience.

00:30:30Elliott Wolfe has more than two decades in NFL front offices.

00:30:33Doesn't necessarily make him good.

00:30:35But it gives me more reason to believe that if he's charging your two with get good talent,

00:30:40now he has more resources to do so.

00:30:42Not to mention the Matthew Judon trade.

00:30:45He, like the rookies he drafted, need more time to figure out what you have there.

00:30:51Yeah, because I mean, I've always made this point, but like, yeah, what happens if the

00:30:56draft class looks good?

00:30:56It's all in two or three years from now.

00:30:58Then it's like, OK, well, thanks for Drake May, see you at the door.

00:31:01Like, thanks for the draft.

00:31:02But I also just don't think that there's like, who do you want as a GM?

00:31:07Is there a guarantee that you're going to get a GM?

00:31:10There's no guarantees as far as general managers go like, well, people would throw names like,

00:31:14oh, give me the assistant guy in Kansas City.

00:31:16Give me someone assistant GM in Detroit.

00:31:18Like, that's great.

00:31:18But what you're what you're asking for is this abstract idea that could be anything like

00:31:24the same thing I wrote about Mayo.

00:31:26It's just potential in your head.

00:31:28They could be better.

00:31:28It's like the backup quarterback.

00:31:29I haven't seen it yet, but I'm going to project all my hopes and dreams onto this empty person

00:31:35or name that hasn't done anything yet, but in my mind will do better than what I've seen,

00:31:39because what I've seen from Wolf has been disappointing.

00:31:41What I would argue is to a degree, it was supposed to be and throw in some bad luck

00:31:45and some bad decisions, which we call down real time with the offensive line, which is

00:31:48a complete failure in his part, replicating Bill Belichick's mistakes inexcusable.

00:31:53But aside from that, there's no grounds to be fired.

00:31:56Here's a GM who's hired for a multi-year job, and we're not even a full year into him

00:32:00having roster control.

00:32:02It's also, I mean, obviously, Ed misses in free agency, and I don't want this to become

00:32:05this big, like, defend Elliott Wolf thing or anything, but like, they're not catastrophic

00:32:09misses like KJ Osborne was signed for what?

00:32:11$3 million.

00:32:13Yeah, these aren't like these aren't whoops.

00:32:16We signed Kirk Cousins for like $100 million guaranteed or whatever.

00:32:20Now we're screwed for the future.

00:32:22And like Calvin Ridley.

00:32:23I mean, yeah, and I don't want to turn this into like a Bill versus Elliott thing, but

00:32:32like near the end of Bill's tenure, like signing Juju Smith Schuster, you had to subtract cap

00:32:38space to cut that guy.

00:32:40Devante Parker, like you had to subtract cap space to cut that guy like those aren't necessarily

00:32:45catastrophic misses, but they are worse misses than what we've seen so far in free agency

00:32:52from Elliott Wolf.

00:32:53You can talk about some of the re signings.

00:32:56Totally.

00:32:57Like, I don't know.

00:33:00The hope is that Kyle Duggar looks better next season.

00:33:04He's not dealing with like ankle injuries or whatever's going on this year, but like

00:33:07that right now looks like you could potentially have to cut beta need some space in the future.

00:33:12We'll see what it looks like next year.

00:33:14No one possibly could have predicted what's going on with Christian Barmore, so I don't

00:33:18really want to touch that one, but like Gabriel Peppers, you sign him to a contract extension.

00:33:22Devante Godshaw, you sign him to a contract extension.

00:33:26Those aren't necessarily looking as good as say like signing Hunter Henry to his extension

00:33:30or anything like that, but still you thought you knew what you had in those guys, so it's

00:33:38easier to admit.

00:33:39I don't know.

00:33:39Yeah, but once again, like do whatever you want to do.

00:33:44It's tough to bring back one of those guys and not cut bait completely or bring back

00:33:50both of them.

00:33:51Yeah, and here's to bring it back to the crafts who again criticized Elliott Wolf all you

00:33:56want.

00:33:57I think the job was not a ready-made roster this year and there have been with along the

00:34:01way and they happened and look, he could be out of a job because like I said, it's not

00:34:04all based on merit and logic.

00:34:06Sometimes it's just like they've seen enough and they need to move on if the crafts do

00:34:09move on.

00:34:11Here's the problem.

00:34:12Congratulations.

00:34:13You just became the Carolina Panthers.

00:34:15Right.

00:34:16Three head coaches in three years.

00:34:18Three different front office leaders in three years.

00:34:21No continuity, no culture, no semblance of a plan and that's how they got here in the

00:34:25first place.

00:34:26Like we bitched about Belichick, rightfully so, not having a succession plan.

00:34:30People forget before Tom Brady.

00:34:32Where were the tight ends?

00:34:33Gronk retires and you have two years, the worst item play in the league.

00:34:36Brady retires, no succession plan there.

00:34:38He had the Cam Newton experience.

00:34:39Bill Belichick, your succession plan was to write in the contract of a fourth year assistant.

00:34:44Hey, you'll be the guy coming up because we like you and you spent some time at Optum.

00:34:49And again, Gerard Mayo might become a great head coach one day, but that day is not today.

00:34:52It's not tomorrow.

00:34:53It's not the day after.

00:34:54It's not even going to be next year.

00:34:56And so for the crafts who relied on Belichick for so long and everything stemmed from him,

00:35:01the system, the game plans, the personnel evaluation that it gets so specific.

00:35:05Once you turn over a new leaf to Wolf and Gerard Mayo,

00:35:08they've not replaced anything around them to fill in that infrastructure.

00:35:12Like you and I both know people from other organizations on the coaching staff in the

00:35:16front office get here and are like, where's all the stuff?

00:35:20Where's all the support staff?

00:35:22How is this?

00:35:23I have how much money to relocate my family sometimes?

00:35:27Like what's going on here?

00:35:28They need to upgrade themselves.

00:35:30They need to modernize themselves in a way that I thought Gerard Mayo was going to do that.

00:35:34That was way too much to ask for a guy again in a sixth season of coaching to do as a head coach.

00:35:39He's learning on the fly.

00:35:41You're not learning as owners.

00:35:42And that's the issue here.

00:35:44You need to upgrade and supply and support your people and develop them in a way that

00:35:49was long the most undersold benefit of having Bill Belichick as your head coach.

00:35:53Josh McDaniels will start as a small assistant.

00:35:55He'll become your offensive coordinator.

00:35:56Brian Flores will be a grunt work and then a defensive coordinator calling a Super Bowl.

00:36:00We allow three points.

00:36:01Okay, they're not developing people like that.

00:36:03And the coaching staff in the front office and they don't have the infrastructure.

00:36:07It's cool.

00:36:08It's actually great.

00:36:09They have a football only training facility coming up.

00:36:12Here's the problem.

00:36:14That's in 2026 at the earliest.

00:36:16And right now you might be starting over with a whole new coaching staff in front office.

00:36:21And you don't have to even take it from me.

00:36:23And this is the last point I'll say.

00:36:25You and I both remember being at the combine.

00:36:27But we're talking to people around the league.

00:36:28We're like, what the fuck is going on for the Patriots?

00:36:31And then the NFLPA report card drops out.

00:36:3429th out of 32 teams.

00:36:36You're the fourth worst franchise in the league.

00:36:39Not according to me.

00:36:40Not according to Doug.

00:36:40Not according to any kind of media or fans.

00:36:42According to your own players.

00:36:45Ownership gets a D.

00:36:47The weight room gets an F.

00:36:49You have F for treatment of families.

00:36:51Those grades told you then and tell you now exactly where this franchise is.

00:36:55And as much as everyone wants to fire Girard and fire Elliott, fire everybody.

00:37:00Again, I'll say it.

00:37:01It's more scratching an itch than a solution.

00:37:03But right now, you might need to do both if you're going to get anywhere.

00:37:07And whatever you pick, you're in a no-win situation.

00:37:09But the Crafts put themselves there.

00:37:13100%.

00:37:14Really curious to see what that report card says this year.

00:37:17Because I'm expecting it to actually be a little bit higher.

00:37:21Just on Girard being more of a players coach.

00:37:24I think they did set up some sort of thing for families.

00:37:26There's a family room now.

00:37:28But at least those things won't be as low.

00:37:30But I don't think the facility.

00:37:32Maybe them announcing that they're going to have this new facility.

00:37:35Maybe that improves that grade a little bit.

00:37:37But I think maybe travel gets a little bit higher.

00:37:39Because I know that some players didn't like having to stay in the boonies

00:37:43rather than actual cities.

00:37:45I think they've improved that a little bit.

00:37:46But the hotel that we were at in Buffalo where supposedly they used to stay all the time.

00:37:49They did.

00:37:50Yeah, they did used to stay at the beautiful Buffalo, Niagara, Marriott or wherever it is.

00:37:56So yeah, I think it might be a little higher.

00:37:58But I don't think it'll be significantly higher.

00:38:00They haven't made like crazy upgrades yet.

00:38:03No.

00:38:03And look, I'm tired of the blame game.

00:38:06I know I just ranted there about ownership and the infrastructure

00:38:09and their failure to develop people and refurbish the infrastructure.

00:38:13But the point is, blame's on everybody's hands.

00:38:15And it goes for Mayo.

00:38:16It goes for Wolfe.

00:38:17It goes for Van Pelt and DeMarcus Covington.

00:38:19And sometimes that doesn't make you feel good at home being like,

00:38:21oh great, blame everybody.

00:38:22But there's not a good way out of this.

00:38:25Because it took a long while to get here.

00:38:27This is organizational rot.

00:38:28And replacing that with real growth, whether it's Mayo growing in year two

00:38:32or Covington or new people or Fable or whomever, is going to take time.

00:38:36And it's unfortunate, but that's where they are.

00:38:39And I don't think we missed anything in the process of covering all that.

00:38:43Anything from the last 48 hours that you want to hit on?

00:38:45I don't think so.

00:38:46Nothing major.

00:38:47Nothing else major, I don't think.

00:38:49It was a pretty quiet Sunday.

00:38:51So yeah.

00:38:52Yeah.

00:38:54I will say this.

00:38:55What would you make of the locker room?

00:38:56And we haven't talked about Keon White's comments to Karen Griegan.

00:39:00But that's the first mailbag question coming up as we pivot.

00:39:03Would you just make generally of the locker room and kind of the vibe after that loss?

00:39:09I mean, it's interesting with Keon White.

00:39:12And like you said, we'll get into it.

00:39:14But you do wish he'd be a little bit more specific.

00:39:18But I think he is kind of having people read between the lines.

00:39:22The locker room in general, I thought it was a little interesting.

00:39:26Like you saw Jalen Hawkins, Del Pettis, and Marte Mapu sitting in like a huddle

00:39:34at their lockers for over an hour after the game, which is very uncommon.

00:39:39Just like dissecting, it seemed like everything had happened.

00:39:42Del Pettis told me that he was just asking a lot of questions to two older guys.

00:39:46Jalen Hawkins said it was all about them sticking together

00:39:49and continuing to try and do all that stuff.

00:39:52So I thought that was a really interesting scene in the locker room.

00:39:56You also had Dietrich Weiss go up to Jalen Polk about an hour after the game,

00:40:02sit next to him, have a conversation with him in his locker for a longer time.

00:40:07That's a veteran captain talking to a rookie.

00:40:11But then hours later, you've got Jalen Polk posting on Instagram,

00:40:15calling himself the most hated.

00:40:17It's like, unless Dietrich Weiss is telling him to do that.

00:40:22I mean, I'll also say that Dietrich Weiss had a comment criticizing fans for booing.

00:40:27Devon Godshaw had a comment, multiple comments criticizing fans for booing Mayo

00:40:34or for chaining fire Mayo and for booing.

00:40:37So I think that kind of goes back to the leadership issue where

00:40:41those are two of the vets in the locker room.

00:40:43And they're being like, hey, we don't deserve to be booed.

00:40:46You can't really tell the fans what to do.

00:40:48And it also makes you wonder a little bit about what the message from Dietrich Weiss

00:40:51to Jalen Polk even is after the game, especially when Jalen Polk posts like that afterwards.

00:40:58And I do think this team has a major leadership void.

00:41:02Certainly losing Juwan Bentley and David Andrews didn't help,

00:41:05but I think there still would have been a leadership void in the locker room

00:41:09based on the next guys in line there.

00:41:12I think that, I don't know, that's probably my number one takeaway.

00:41:14Devon Godshaw first comments out of the gate to the media also was,

00:41:18I thought we defended the run well.

00:41:20It's like they ran 150 yards and you guys just gave up seemingly in the fourth quarter.

00:41:27So yeah, maybe you allowed four yards per carrier or whatever it was,

00:41:31but it doesn't mean that you did well when you lost 40 to seven.

00:41:36So that was kind of a rant, but.

00:41:38No, you took us around.

00:41:40We were by the receivers for a little bit,

00:41:42hung out with the safeties and then ended up with Devon Godshaw.

00:41:45Who just, regardless of how the game went, starts with the run defense,

00:41:48because that's what concerns him.

00:41:49And I think it's not him in a good light.

00:41:52It's not super common across the locker room, but it's common enough

00:41:57where you're not going to say splintered in a way that you go back last year

00:42:00and you had Mac Jones guys, you had Bailey's happy guys, or even two years ago.

00:42:04But it's certainly, you know, you do the old cliche, five fingers or one fist.

00:42:10Like there's a lot of guys out for themselves and it's not,

00:42:13you need to the Patriots and being a team that's one overall pick.

00:42:18It's a bad team, but the guys who have bought in aren't reaping the benefits of that hard work.

00:42:22Like teacher twice told me, I go, Hey, what are the stakes of this?

00:42:24After the Bayou last four games, what's the stretch?

00:42:28If we finish strong, it says the hard work matters.

00:42:32Your own three, two of these games were not remotely close.

00:42:35So it says we're working right now.

00:42:37It doesn't work.

00:42:38What's happening right now does not work in the culture reflects that.

00:42:41So last thing I say, no, no, no more lasting.

00:42:46I do have a very belated travel tales, which I've never done this with somebody else.

00:42:51But the Buffalo trip, because we, I promised to deliver what happened in Buffalo a little

00:42:55behind the scenes from when we landed and everything going around the game.

00:42:57And I think you're going to have good insights into there,

00:42:59starting with a hundred ounce beer tower.

00:43:01But before we get to beer towers in Buffalo,

00:43:03Bill bag, here's the key on white question, Carlos.

00:43:06Hey guys, cool.

00:43:07I was interested in hearing your opinion on key on white situation.

00:43:10Dry double down on his previous quote, saying that he and Keon

00:43:13are on the same page, but the situation seems weird.

00:43:16Narrator.

00:43:17Yes.

00:43:18Do you guys view him as a foundational player in the rebuild?

00:43:21What message will it send out?

00:43:22If dried comes back and Keon subsequently requests betrayed.

00:43:27I think it's really interesting that now twice, as Carlos mentioned,

00:43:30drawn me, I said, I had a conversation with drawn me with, with Keon.

00:43:34Why he didn't mean that.

00:43:35It's like.

00:43:36Keon white is such an interesting guy that like, I can almost see him

00:43:40meeting with the dry man being like, that's not what I meant.

00:43:42And that's just like literally all he says and like, and not specifying

00:43:47any more about what exactly he did mean by any of it.

00:43:51Because he is kind of a Mercurial that I did.

00:43:55I butchered the pronunciation of that word.

00:43:56Mercurial.

00:43:57It wasn't a Danny Heifetz butchering, but I might cut that for later.

00:44:02Just sort of my own kicks.

00:44:03Yeah.

00:44:03At least I knew how it was pronounced.

00:44:05I'm like Danny Heifetz too, just like has no idea how words are pronounced.

00:44:10But he, I mean, you'd like him to be a key part of the rebuild, but

00:44:17heading into the season, I remember having conversations about Keon white being like,

00:44:20are we sure he's going to be this dominant force?

00:44:23Because he wasn't last year.

00:44:25He started off the season.

00:44:26Well, he's kind of petered out a little bit.

00:44:29He said that he himself is not fully happy with his performance.

00:44:33The Patriots pass rush has been horrendous since the game against the Bears.

00:44:37Midway through this Chargers game, I turned to you and said,

00:44:40I feel like the Patriots haven't had a real sack in like six weeks.

00:44:43And I was like, I must be forgetting something.

00:44:45I wasn't.

00:44:46Their fastest sack since their nine sack performance against the Bears came in 4.4

00:44:51seconds.

00:44:51That was Christian Barmore sacking to Otonga-Vailoa.

00:44:54They've had three sacks since that nine sack performance against the Bears.

00:44:58Two of them were Josh Allen and to Otonga-Vailoa

00:45:01kind of just like running themselves into sacks.

00:45:03And the third one was Brendan Schooler running off the edge to Otonga-Vailoa

00:45:07scrambling to his left and Brendan Schooler catching up with them

00:45:11five seconds later or whatever it was.

00:45:13Like they legitimately have not had a real

00:45:16guy in the pocket stack him in three seconds since that game against Caleb Williams.

00:45:21And Caleb Williams is like the worst quarterback in the league

00:45:24in pressure to sack, right?

00:45:25So of course that's going to be the game that they actually get after the passer.

00:45:28But Keon white should be the key there.

00:45:30He should be someone who can get after a quarterback in three seconds,

00:45:33three and a half seconds, whatever it is, sack him in the pocket.

00:45:35He's not doing it.

00:45:36No one else is doing it.

00:45:37And I think that it does raise questions about

00:45:40is Keon white just a rotational player in the future?

00:45:42Is he a strong side ad?

00:45:44Like pass rusher is probably their second or third biggest need right now.

00:45:52Like you're actually probably getting by better with Mario Douglas,

00:45:57booty and Kendrick Bourne than you are with the Patriots current pass rushers.

00:46:01The Patriots pass versus actually worse than the receiving court right now.

00:46:06I don't think there's enough evidence to claim definitively

00:46:10that Keon white is a foundational player.

00:46:12Like you would hope that for a second round pick

00:46:14who flashed at times as a rookie and not in a statistical way.

00:46:17And then started this season with four sacks in two games.

00:46:19And Kyle Shanahan two weeks later is like, oh, that 99, we got to look out for him.

00:46:23And yeah, the 49ers blew them out.

00:46:25But Keon says to me, I know I can play good football.

00:46:28It's not happening right now.

00:46:30That has him unhappy.

00:46:31And even some of his comments again to me.

00:46:33And he said other things to other people.

00:46:35The major changes one being the one that got the most airtime and attention.

00:46:39But he says to me, like I've never felt more disconnected.

00:46:43It's a word he used or less on the same page than I do right now.

00:46:46I said, disconnected from what?

00:46:48He says, that's what I got to figure out.

00:46:50So like there's this vagueness here that either he's playing this long game

00:46:55and trying to lead you on but only to a certain point.

00:46:57Then you got to figure out the rest or he's just lost.

00:46:59Either way, it's a problem.

00:47:01And there is something to a guy in his mid-20s who's got to figure out

00:47:04how to be better at his job.

00:47:05Like all of us.

00:47:06Okay.

00:47:06He's not blameless here.

00:47:08And there's certainly an eagerness for people to hear criticism of the coaching.

00:47:11Because that's all we want to do now is just fire away, Gerard and everyone on staff.

00:47:15But it should be better than this is my point.

00:47:17And it's not.

00:47:18And that's a reflection on coaching, reaching him as a player.

00:47:21And I asked him straight up.

00:47:22I was like, hey, how's the rest of your life?

00:47:24Feeling disconnected is kind of a depressive suggestion, right?

00:47:29You feel isolated, right?

00:47:29He's like, my mental health is good.

00:47:31Like I'm having a ball outside the facility.

00:47:32It's when I come in here that I have a problem.

00:47:34So again, I don't think there's enough that he's a foundational player.

00:47:38But the fact that Gerard says twice, we're on a good page.

00:47:43And Keon White says, no, I meant what I said.

00:47:47That's the disconnect between Keon White and his head coach.

00:47:52I mean, I'll also say about Keon White.

00:47:54Keon White didn't talk to anyone last year.

00:47:56He basically didn't talk to teammates last year.

00:47:59So to hear him be like, I'm disconnected in here.

00:48:03I think some of these things are Keon White's personality.

00:48:06And I think that, obviously, you can still be a very good player

00:48:10with a distinct personality.

00:48:11But he does have a distinct personality.

00:48:14And I credit him for saying these things out loud, though.

00:48:18Even if he is going to be vague, at least expresses feelings about these things.

00:48:22Yeah.

00:48:22And there's also, I think you could make a case that

00:48:26when Daniel Aquali tells me in London,

00:48:28some guys in here think too highly of themselves.

00:48:29He could be on that list.

00:48:31People talk about other players playing selfish, as Devon Gotchow said.

00:48:35Keon White can make that list.

00:48:36Like, he should not be the person that you just trust

00:48:40to be a reliable, accurate narrator of events in the Patriots locker room.

00:48:44Because he's saying things that you would want to hear as an angry fan.

00:48:47Just put him in context.

00:48:49It doesn't mean they're all wrong.

00:48:50It doesn't mean they're all right.

00:48:51We can parse through this and be like, this is likely what it means.

00:48:53And he also is taking accountability, which builds some credibility in his comments.

00:48:58Like, you're not going to blame the guy who's saying, oh, it starts with me.

00:49:01But it's more complicated than he's making it sound.

00:49:07Even if, for the most part, he's right, there are things that we could tweak here.

00:49:10Anyway, I want to remind the good folks that, A, I think we're still going to do this

00:49:13with longtime listener Nick Roy, who has two tickets to Sunday's game.

00:49:17If you want to boo, if you want to cheer,

00:49:19if you just want to go see Joe Belton throw the ball out of the stadium,

00:49:22we might be able to make that happen for you here in the Pats Interference Podcast

00:49:25if you donate to Leukemia and Lymphoma Society.

00:49:27If you don't get those tickets, and you would have said, rather, go to a game next year.

00:49:30Or if you want to go to a Celtics game, you want to go to a Bruins game,

00:49:32you want to go to a concert, and you might see Doug there.

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00:50:29Question number two.

00:50:30This made me laugh.

00:50:31Manolo.

00:50:32Hey, Andrew.

00:50:33The Pats are currently sitting on $161 million of cap space.

00:50:37I've not verified that number.

00:50:39Realistically, how much of that could be converted into funding for a space program

00:50:44that builds a rocket capsule to fire the offensive line directly into the sun?

00:50:51Um, yeah, I think a lot.

00:50:55Uh, yeah, maybe they could get NASA on the phone and see what they can do.

00:50:59Um, I don't know.

00:51:02The cap space thing is, it's huge.

00:51:04And like between the cap space and potentially having number one overall pick in the league,

00:51:09I think someone has this like formula for like the most off-season value that you can

00:51:15have heading into an arc.

00:51:16Like the Patriots would be far and away there right now.

00:51:19Because there's no, there's no team in the league who has two first round picks right now.

00:51:23So like having the first overall pick is far and away the most valuable in the draft.

00:51:29And then they also have the most cap space.

00:51:30So yeah, I mean, if there's any team that can improve their roster as much as possible

00:51:35this year, it is definitely the Patriots.

00:51:37I think a lot of that has to be invested in the offensive line, but also in the wide

00:51:40receivers.

00:51:41Like I said, also in edge defenders, uh, you don't know what Christian Barmore's future

00:51:45hold.

00:51:45So defensive tackle is up there as well.

00:51:47There are so many needs on this team.

00:51:49I don't think that you can actually address all of them, even if you do have $130 million

00:51:54in cap space and the number one overall pick, but it does go a long way toward addressing

00:51:58those needs to, to the fact that maybe you could finish next season with seven wins or

00:52:02eight wins.

00:52:02You know, you're not gonna be a super bowl contender yet, but I think that you can improve

00:52:05quite a bit.

00:52:06So the two names that are known for agency, which this is not what, um, Manolo asked,

00:52:13but T Higgins and Ronnie Stanley are the two names in it.

00:52:18Ronnie Stanley left tackle for the Ravens far and away the best offensive tackle available

00:52:22T Higgins, the far best receiver, which reminded me that after Saturday's game, when Devon

00:52:26gotcha, I was at home, presumably wherever he was just tweeting and all calves T Higgins.

00:52:30Like I get that there's some sort of engagement to cultivate there and win over some fans

00:52:37who might be upset with your postgame comments, but man, that, that looks shitty for your

00:52:41teammates.

00:52:41And granted, there's no good case of the Patriots receivers this season.

00:52:45He's right to want T Higgins.

00:52:47Everyone on that team should want to, it's just a bad thing optically where either it

00:52:50doesn't care or doesn't know.

00:52:51And either it just, just kind of rubbed me the wrong way a little bit.

00:52:54Um, let's move on.

00:52:56No, that also $161 million, not enough.

00:52:58I would guarantee you without knowing a single thing about space or building spaceships and

00:53:03a person into space, it's going to be more.

00:53:05It's also a lot of weight, an entire offensive line, thousands of pounds.

00:53:11Would you believe that when I was covering college Roseville, actually Penn state, USC,

00:53:16great game.

00:53:17Saquon, Chris Galvin, Jujitsu, Mr.

00:53:19Schuster, a bunch of NFL pros, Sam Darnold that I watched USC's offensive line at the

00:53:24time board and escalator.

00:53:27And it's a sparkling, super expensive hotel where they were hosting media availabilities.

00:53:31Once everyone got on, the thing stopped stairs because it couldn't bear all that weight.

00:53:37Mind you, do you remember?

00:53:38And you probably do remember Zach banner?

00:53:41Yeah.

00:53:41Yo, he was huge.

00:53:42Lincoln candy, son.

00:53:44Yeah.

00:53:45Yeah.

00:53:45Six, eight, uh, three 70, three 80, like three nights.

00:53:50Yeah.

00:53:50But, uh, anyway, actually stop.

00:53:52There's a tweet somewhere.

00:53:53You can find it.

00:53:54No one wants to do that.

00:53:55Kurt, who, uh, I had some good suggestions last week in the radio and I was offering

00:54:00up, Hey, do you get a good thoughtful question?

00:54:02Respectful question for Gerard Mayo.

00:54:04I might use that question.

00:54:05He had some good suggestions.

00:54:06The timing was just off, but Kurt, we answer your question.

00:54:08Now.

00:54:09Quote, we all know this roster has a lot of room for improvement.

00:54:12Do you think Elliott Wolf has the ability to close with upcoming free agents and will

00:54:17the crafts overspend to assist in landing those free agents?

00:54:23Yeah, I don't, I'm, I, I think, I think Elliott Wolf himself has the ability to close.

00:54:29I think that the issue is.

00:54:31Are players going to want to come here?

00:54:32Like, I guess, and that's part of closing, but you've got Drake may.

00:54:37Um, but I was, I'm just like, I was just looking at some of the free agents this off season

00:54:42and like one of the top free agent edge defenders is cool.

00:54:46Mac.

00:54:47It's like Cole Mac just saw this firsthand.

00:54:51What this looks like in New England.

00:54:52Is he really going to be banged down the door to play for drive me on this team?

00:54:56Cool.

00:54:57Max, probably a guy who was hoping to win a super bowl.

00:54:59That's not going to happen in the next year, probably two with the Patriots.

00:55:03So it's, it's an uphill climb to get free agents to want to come here.

00:55:08I do think the Patriots will be willing to overspend for guys though, because they have

00:55:13to, that's, that's the reality of the situation.

00:55:16And quite frankly, they have the cap space to do it.

00:55:19They need to spend this cap space on someone.

00:55:21They need to hit the cash floor over the next three, over the next two years.

00:55:25And I know like Robert Kraft knows the optics.

00:55:29If they come back into this next season with like, oh, we've got $70 million to carry over

00:55:33in cap space.

00:55:34Like it's going to look really bad.

00:55:36So they are going to spend this money.

00:55:38They are going to have to overpay.

00:55:40And I think they're going to be willing to overpay to get these guys.

00:55:42And they were willing to pay a lot of money for guys like Brandon and Calvin Ridley.

00:55:46Like didn't work out last off season, this off season.

00:55:50It has to.

00:55:51It has to work out.

00:55:52And yeah, I mean, I think Elliot Wolfe has the ability to close, but you really do need

00:55:58someone out there pitching guys as well as possible and recruiting and doing it as best

00:56:03as you can to get these guys to come at top dollar and to not want to go to a better team

00:56:09with a better foundation and a better infrastructure.

00:56:12And that was the biggest issue with Ridley and Ayuk, right?

00:56:15Everyone's like, oh, you can't close.

00:56:16You can't get the big name receivers.

00:56:17Well, Ayuk didn't want to come here.

00:56:19Also didn't end up getting traded.

00:56:21So that's not an entire sure thing that that was going to happen.

00:56:24And Ridley wanted to go to Nashville and play for a team that had been better, was more

00:56:29talented, paid him more money, and certainly had a better tax situation.

00:56:33So forget the whole craft snafu of girlfriend versus wife, didn't want to come here, yada,

00:56:37yada.

00:56:37Like I get that you could paint that as Elliot Wolfe not closing.

00:56:42But if he does, you're paying Calvin Ridley like $27 million instead of the $22, $23 that

00:56:46he got.

00:56:47I'm with you.

00:56:48I do think they will overspend because you have to.

00:56:51They did it.

00:56:52Also, people forget less than four years ago, set the freaking record for spending in free

00:56:56agency in a big way.

00:56:58And their argument that this was like somehow taking advantage of a market inefficiency

00:57:03because the cap had come down and we had more space was bogus.

00:57:06It was a bad PR pitch.

00:57:07But the bottom line is they spent real cash in a real way.

00:57:10And when we say the word overpay, as Kurt did, that's not a good thing, though.

00:57:16Right.

00:57:16You're not extracting value from that.

00:57:18And at this point, as I said before, the Patriots can't be picky.

00:57:22But anyway, I'm with you.

00:57:23I think they were not.

00:57:24Obviously, you have to spend money on the right people.

00:57:26And that's what the Patriots have tried to do.

00:57:27That's what they tried to do last offseason.

00:57:29But like the cap is going to keep going up.

00:57:31Like if you give a ton of money to T Higgins, it's not going to look that bad two, three

00:57:35years down the line when wide receivers are making even more than that.

00:57:38So I actually don't hate the idea of overpaying because at some point the value is going to

00:57:44go up anyway on these guys.

00:57:46Yeah.

00:57:46All right.

00:57:46Let's breeze through these last couple and then do Buffalo really quickly.

00:57:50Evan quote.

00:57:50Why do you think we aren't seeing Dave on Baker and Jalen Polk getting in as many snaps and

00:57:55reps in the last couple of games?

00:57:57So much negativity surrounding Polk most hated.

00:58:00But I feel like the lack of reps isn't helping his development.

00:58:04Because they're not as good as the other wide receivers.

00:58:06And like they each got targeted in this game against Chargers.

00:58:10Now the guy caught a pass.

00:58:11They were both on the field late in the game.

00:58:13Neither one caught a pass.

00:58:15I don't know.

00:58:15I really try not to be so low on Jalen Polk and Javon Baker because like they're rookies

00:58:20and maybe they can't improve.

00:58:21But like I wrote 26 days ago about Jalen Polk struggles and about how he was having a historically

00:58:30bad year and like cited all these stats and he was either last in or like super low end.

00:58:36Since December 4th, when I wrote that story, Jalen Polk has not caught a pass.

00:58:41So all of those things are now worse than they were when I wrote that story.

00:58:45Because he's been targeted twice since I wrote that.

00:58:48Still hasn't caught a pass.

00:58:49So his catch rate's down.

00:58:50His yards per run is down.

00:58:52All of these things are even lower than they were almost a month ago.

00:58:56And I mean, Javon Baker hasn't caught a pass yet.

00:58:58The expectations were lower for him as a fourth round pick.

00:59:01But he's also the same guy who said that he gets your popcorn ready.

00:59:04I make people in wheelchairs stand up.

00:59:06And he hasn't got a pass yet.

00:59:08So they stink.

00:59:10I think it's the answer, right?

00:59:11Javon Baker's target was on a slam.

00:59:13Backside slam.

00:59:14One-on-one.

00:59:14We're going to clear space.

00:59:15Put everyone on the opposite side of the formation.

00:59:18Just win on the slam.

00:59:19Couldn't do it.

00:59:19And Jalen Polk has two catches since Halloween.

00:59:22To your point about not since December 4th, which I'm glad you clarified.

00:59:25I was like, how do you know that was 26 days ago that you wrote that story?

00:59:29But they stink right now.

00:59:31So they can't rely on Drake looking at them and knowing they'll be in the right place

00:59:35and do the right thing.

00:59:36I'll also note, this has happened two weeks in a row now.

00:59:39Jalen Polk goes out there for some random third-down snap.

00:59:42And they run a simple all-curls play.

00:59:45Like, the stuff they're being handed still this late in the season has to be so simple.

00:59:49Go downfield.

00:59:51Stop right after you cross the third-down marker.

00:59:53Turn around.

00:59:54That's the stuff that they're doing.

00:59:55And it's still not working.

00:59:57J-Tuck.

00:59:57One more thing on Polk.

01:00:00I know this is all retrospect.

01:00:02I probably should have said this better.

01:00:03Like, this is all in hindsight.

01:00:04But like, I was a big University of Washington fan last year.

01:00:08Overall, I like the Jalen Polk pick in the second round.

01:00:10He was a projected second rounder.

01:00:14Yada, yada, yada.

01:00:15Like, Jalen McMillan's having a lot of success with the Buccaneers.

01:00:18Right now, I think he just caught two more touchdowns.

01:00:20Like, when all three of those guys were healthy last year,

01:00:23Romo Dunze and Jalen McMillan were better than Jalen Polk.

01:00:27So Jalen McMillan had a bunch of injuries last year.

01:00:29He had an ankle injury.

01:00:30Missed half the season.

01:00:31He was kind of a slot-only guy.

01:00:33But like, it's not shocking to see Odunze and McMillan playing better than Polk.

01:00:38There's no part of me that thought that Polk would have 87 yards at this point

01:00:42with the amount of playing time that he's had.

01:00:43Do you ever think Vidarian Lowe would have more catches than Javon Baker?

01:00:49What's that?

01:00:49Since Halloween?

01:00:50Or since December?

01:00:51Since January?

01:00:53Oh, then Javon Baker.

01:00:54No, no, no, no, no.

01:00:55Yeah, I thought you said Jalen Polk.

01:00:56But yeah, no, no part of me.

01:00:59All right.

01:00:59Like I said, this next one, not sure if it was totally in good faith.

01:01:02But I think it's quickly good to explore.

01:01:07This is dramatic.

01:01:09As the ashes continue to smolder in the end of the dynasty.

01:01:12Not smoldering.

01:01:13It's dead.

01:01:13It's dark.

01:01:14It's been like beat on by everyone else in the NFL.

01:01:16What do you think the local Patriots and Boston media will look like in a year or two?

01:01:19A lot of wagons were hitched to their success.

01:01:24I don't think it's going to look that different.

01:01:25I mean, Patriots are still number one interest as far as the four major sports.

01:01:31Football is always going to be number one.

01:01:33And quite honestly, it's been how many years of this now at this point?

01:01:37Like Patriots haven't won a playoff game since 2019.

01:01:42And nothing has dramatically changed.

01:01:44I guess some companies have changed a little bit.

01:01:46But I don't know.

01:01:48I don't see a whole lot changing.

01:01:50And interest currently right now is higher than it's been all season.

01:01:55So sometimes losing isn't the worst thing for business.

01:01:57Yeah.

01:01:58And it leads to more interest in the offseason, which you could say this broadly.

01:02:02About the whole country.

01:02:03Like the NFL is the biggest show and show business in entertainment.

01:02:09Right.

01:02:10I've called it an American addiction football.

01:02:12So that's not changing locally.

01:02:14That dynasty forever changes region to being a football, not just town.

01:02:20But they said region like the whole northeast.

01:02:22So as bad as the Patriots are, the Celtics just won a title.

01:02:26People still find them boring, even though they lose and kind of play with their food.

01:02:29Now people are not going to Red Sox games as often.

01:02:32And the Bruins are stuck in the NHL, kind of like four siblings in a family of four.

01:02:36So I would also say separate from this, like you said, it hits the wagon to the success.

01:02:43I think Michael Holly, you want to go back early dynasty, Tom Curran, Mike Reese.

01:02:48Like those guys are just excellent at what they do, independent of what they cover.

01:02:51And I think there are a lot of really good people on the beat.

01:02:53So this is not like, oh, palling around with the media.

01:02:56But Michael Holly is a New York Times bestseller.

01:02:58Mike Reese is as good as a beat writer there is in the country.

01:03:00And Tom is wildly talented, funny and good at what he does.

01:03:02So yeah, they would be anywhere.

01:03:04And that's independent of Bill and Tom and whomever else.

01:03:07So three more than travel tales.

01:03:09We'll get out of here.

01:03:10Patriots report.

01:03:11What do you make of Caden Wallace at right tackle?

01:03:13And Jalen Polk and Jayvon Baker's reps towards the end of the game,

01:03:16obviously limited sample size.

01:03:17But I'm just hoping for any glimmer of development

01:03:20and knowing what you have and don't have going into next season.

01:03:24Unfortunately, it's like a little bit too little too late with Caden Wallace.

01:03:27We're like, please, a couple of drives at the end of this game.

01:03:31Hopefully, you see him start in week 18.

01:03:34But like, I don't know how much you can really bank on from,

01:03:38you know, one and a quarter games or right tackle for the future.

01:03:41Like, I don't know.

01:03:43Like, I think you still have to add some.

01:03:47I guess it helps that you could potentially still move over to right tackle.

01:03:51So maybe you don't need to address right tackle this offseason

01:03:56because you hope that Caden Wallace can do it.

01:03:58If he can't do it, then you've still got Michael Wenu

01:04:02and you have enough depth at guard.

01:04:03But yeah, I think that you definitely would have liked

01:04:06to have seen like 10 games of Caden Wallace at right tackle

01:04:09play solid football to know that you had that assurance in the future at right tackle.

01:04:17Yeah, it's too little to say.

01:04:19I don't think anything last Saturday is going to change my view of their season.

01:04:23I don't think anything on Sunday is going to change my view of the season.

01:04:25It's disappointing broadly, but also in the way that

01:04:29if Caden Wallace had just been left at one position,

01:04:31and I understand you want to cross train some guys,

01:04:33and that's a new offensive line, and you've got injuries

01:04:36and decisions to make, and they're not always easy.

01:04:38But if you want a third round rookie to play

01:04:40one of the most difficult positions in all of football,

01:04:43let him focus on one position.

01:04:45They haven't done that.

01:04:46He got hurt, only recently regained his full playing weight and strength

01:04:50as he told me the other day in the locker room.

01:04:52It's just too little.

01:04:53And what we've seen from Polk and Baker again,

01:04:55like we talked about, is not good.

01:04:56Miserable Pats fan, is there a possibility of the Patriots

01:05:00getting penalized for tanking if we start Joe Milton?

01:05:03My answer is no.

01:05:04No, like I said earlier, there's enough of a case to do it

01:05:07as far as you got to see what you have in the future there.

01:05:10No, I don't think they would get penalized for that.

01:05:12All right.

01:05:13Pyramid the podcast.

01:05:14Cool.

01:05:15Time machine.

01:05:16That's how this starts.

01:05:17We go back to the start of the season.

01:05:19I tell you that by the end of the year,

01:05:21Drake May is undoubtedly awesome and shows flashes of being elite.

01:05:25We, meaning the Patriots, end up with the number one overall pick

01:05:27and still have more than $130 million in cap space to spend.

01:05:31Are you happy?

01:05:36Um, I mean, I guess, but like it takes out,

01:05:41it takes out way too much context of the season.

01:05:44Because like, yeah, you're happy with that.

01:05:47And like I said, you, like you have value this off season,

01:05:51undoubtedly with the number one overall pick and a bunch of cap space,

01:05:55but to not know if you have the answers at your head coach,

01:05:59your coordinators, the front office, all these things, like those are major issues.

01:06:03So like, yes, there are absolutely things to be happy about,

01:06:06but in like looking at that in a vacuum, yeah, you're happy,

01:06:10but this doesn't exist in a vacuum and you can't be fully happy with what's going on

01:06:15based on what transpired the season.

01:06:17I know that the Patriots, you know, wind up three, four wins, whatever it is,

01:06:21that's about what they were projected to start the season,

01:06:24but it takes out even more context of all of those wins

01:06:29were in the first half to middle of the season.

01:06:33They're going to end with a giant losing streak

01:06:37and they have not improved from week one to week 18,

01:06:41or at least week one to week 17.

01:06:43They looked better in week one than they did in week 17.

01:06:46And that's a major problem.

01:06:48And as our pal, Chris Mason wrote, tell me what the Patriots are good at.

01:06:53Right.

01:06:54The answer is nothing that upsets me.

01:06:57And this, like, I think the question comes from a place of perspective.

01:07:00And that's something that, you know, even media self-included sometimes can lose

01:07:04when you get someone to the weeds and dive into the details of a season,

01:07:07what's happening week to week.

01:07:08And what does this game mean?

01:07:09What are the trends?

01:07:10What could happen next?

01:07:10Yada, yada.

01:07:11You zoom out.

01:07:12Yeah.

01:07:12Drake may being great is a huge, huge development.

01:07:15Pillar of the program, whoever is around to coach it, lead it, mold it, whatever.

01:07:20Cap space is good.

01:07:22I want to know, though, if the Patriots can be good at anything,

01:07:24because everything around Drake may has not only just been below average,

01:07:29it's been below expectation.

01:07:31And that's a key part to me.

01:07:32It was not a high bar to start the season.

01:07:35But even with that, it's gone below.

01:07:37And that speaks to coaching, talent, direction, culture,

01:07:40all this stuff we've been talking about for months.

01:07:41So I get it.

01:07:42I do think that's a useful framework,

01:07:44but it leaves out too much context, as you said.

01:07:47OK.

01:07:48So Buffalo.

01:07:51This is the part where, if you want to jump off,

01:07:52this is pretty much the end of the football talk.

01:07:54But I promise to take everyone on the road with us.

01:07:57And this usually starts with you, very graciously, picking me up.

01:08:00It's two weekends ago now.

01:08:01Travel tale segment before Christmas at my apartment.

01:08:04We go to Logan.

01:08:06We get the weeds in this.

01:08:08Flight's delayed.

01:08:08Whatever.

01:08:08We're hanging out.

01:08:09We have me, you, the two camera guys from NBC, Glenn and Moose.

01:08:14Mark Daniels, Chris Mason.

01:08:16Just like bullshitting, talking about the team.

01:08:18And some guy was like, do you guys work for a radio station?

01:08:21We're like, no, we just can't separate work from life.

01:08:23And here we are boarding an airport, getting on the plane,

01:08:26watching the first of the semifinal games.

01:08:28This is when the college football playoff started.

01:08:30And we land a little place called Wingnuts,

01:08:33of course, ends with a Z, right next to our hotel.

01:08:36And as I teased, well, tell me what you thought of Wingnuts.

01:08:39Because I like, forget the Z.

01:08:41This was an A plus to me.

01:08:43Yeah, it was really good.

01:08:45I think I had a realization, not to go too far into this,

01:08:49but I had a realization of why wings are so much better in Buffalo,

01:08:52because I genuinely think they are.

01:08:54I think Duff's is really great.

01:08:56I think Wingnuts was great.

01:08:57I think every wings place I've had is great.

01:08:59And then I get home and either the local place,

01:09:03or I got wings from like Pisoni's or something.

01:09:06It's just like the expectation is so much higher

01:09:09and the competition is so much greater in Buffalo

01:09:12that you have to have good wings.

01:09:14You have to be able to step up against these other places.

01:09:17Otherwise, no one's going to go to you.

01:09:19And that competition, that expectation does not exist in Massachusetts,

01:09:23where like even I know people love Buffs and Newton.

01:09:25It just, to me, is nowhere near as good as the best places in Buffalo.

01:09:29Yeah.

01:09:30So we go out with the MassLive guys, staying at our hotel.

01:09:33Mind you, that hotel just, I don't know,

01:09:37molded in my image of like hotel heaven,

01:09:39in that you have this giant gym.

01:09:41You've got a giant Mountain Dew in the cooler.

01:09:43There's actual single and crossbowls that are next door.

01:09:45And yes, that might be a 12-year-old

01:09:47and a 33-year-old's body checking in this hotel.

01:09:50We get in, go to Wingnuts, and we're like,

01:09:52all right, we'll have a little bit here.

01:09:53We're watching the games.

01:09:54I think it was Texans Chiefs.

01:09:56And then there was the Steelers-Ravens was on after that.

01:09:59And we're getting ready to check out.

01:10:01We have a little bit of food.

01:10:02We're going to go into town a little bit later.

01:10:04And Mark spots someone walk by with this,

01:10:08I don't know, two and a half foot cylinder.

01:10:10And it's clear, except for the part it's filled

01:10:12with some kind of beer.

01:10:13And the waitress walks behind me.

01:10:15And he's like, what the hell was that?

01:10:16Gets up out of his seat,

01:10:18walks around the corner into the other room.

01:10:19I go, that was a beer tower.

01:10:21So I said, all right, well, here we go.

01:10:23And split that mostly with him.

01:10:25Granted, you're driving.

01:10:27We would never risk anything like that.

01:10:28We got an Uber, we're going to town.

01:10:30But Wingnuts, if you got an afternoon to kill,

01:10:32grab a beer tower.

01:10:33And we threw that down.

01:10:35Probably the best wings of my life, by the way.

01:10:37Nice recommendation from our guy, Matt Perino

01:10:40at Syracuse.com, upstate New York.

01:10:42I think the New York version of Matt's life.

01:10:45You split then to meet with friends.

01:10:47We go to Dinosaur Barbecue.

01:10:50Excellent spot.

01:10:51Enjoyed there.

01:10:52There's an Irish pub called Banishee next door,

01:10:56which just goes to prove, as I always say,

01:10:58I don't care if you're in Spain, Siberia,

01:11:00South Africa, or Buffalo.

01:11:02There's always an Irish pub.

01:11:04And it always feels like home.

01:11:05And I was so glad to be there.

01:11:08We end up, because I went to bed earlier that night.

01:11:10I don't know what it was.

01:11:12Maybe the wings were just the half

01:11:13of a 100-ounce tower of beer.

01:11:15There was one last spot, though, called Detour.

01:11:18And this was a bar that Chris Mason discovered.

01:11:20He had been to last year with our guy, Dakota Randall,

01:11:22who was just aficionado

01:11:24when it comes to espresso martinis.

01:11:25And that's what this bar was supposed to be,

01:11:27a kind of a martini bar.

01:11:28I just wanted to watch the end

01:11:29of the UConn Women's Basketball game

01:11:31because we're bouncing around in downtown Buffalo.

01:11:33First of all, when he discovers

01:11:35they had been there the year before,

01:11:36he finds that Dakota,

01:11:38big into these espresso martinis,

01:11:39was disgusted with the quality of it.

01:11:41And I'm looking around at the back of the bar

01:11:43and I'm seeing the high end of this

01:11:46is the stuff that used to get me excited in college.

01:11:48Like someone walks into the house

01:11:50with a bottle of Grey Goose

01:11:51and is like, that guy is the man.

01:11:53And then I look around, I'm like,

01:11:55these are mostly kids

01:11:56who were probably just out of college.

01:11:57And then you have the recent divorcees

01:11:59who were trying to get back into the swing of things.

01:12:01And I'm like, I don't really want to be here.

01:12:04I do want to see the end of this game

01:12:05which UConn ended up losing.

01:12:06And then it got to the point of,

01:12:07I think I'm going to go home.

01:12:09So Chris and Mark were disappointed with their drinks.

01:12:11I leave, they go on,

01:12:13then find out the place they went to after last year.

01:12:16As they're searching around the block

01:12:17and they have a picture

01:12:18and they're looking around,

01:12:19actually burned down the next bar they had been to

01:12:22and loved so much.

01:12:23So I don't know what happened to Buffalo

01:12:25in the 12 months from last year to this year.

01:12:28I like downtown Buffalo

01:12:29a little bit more than I expected,

01:12:31save for that disappointing detour last stop

01:12:33before we had a 425 game,

01:12:35very thankfully, the next day.

01:12:37And that was my Buffalo experience.

01:12:40Yeah, I guess fun fact, not that fun fact,

01:12:45but a fact about the bar burning down.

01:12:49It was set fire by a man named John W. Burns,

01:12:53which is fitting for an arsonist.

01:12:57I guess he worked there,

01:12:58said like, I'm going to burn this place down

01:13:00and 15 minutes later burned it down.

01:13:02So very unfortunate for that bar in Buffalo,

01:13:07but you have to see the irony

01:13:09or the, I don't know, John Burns for an arsonist.

01:13:12That's, I went to a place called Founding Fathers,

01:13:20which was a like presidential and history-themed bar

01:13:24with, like you said, a couple of friends,

01:13:25a couple of Bills beat writers,

01:13:28which was interesting.

01:13:30The bartender there goes around

01:13:32like yelling trivia questions

01:13:34at people who are sitting around

01:13:36and it was voted like the 18th best bar

01:13:39in the country in like 2016 or something like that.

01:13:41And they're very proud of this fact.

01:13:43And there's like posters all over the world being like,

01:13:45we're the 16th best in 2016.

01:13:46So that was fun, but yeah, I enjoy Buffalo.

01:13:49It's very chill there.

01:13:52Very easy to get in and out of the airport.

01:13:54I know a lot of people don't like

01:13:55the Buffalo trip every year, but I'm for it.

01:13:57I think it's fun every year.

01:13:59Big time for it.

01:14:00I'll say this too,

01:14:01because their new stadium is going to go up in 2026.

01:14:04If it's a warm weather game

01:14:05or you just don't care about the cold,

01:14:07I would say make the trip.

01:14:09I did that as a kid growing up,

01:14:10rooting for the Patriots once.

01:14:12And I think it was the first road game

01:14:14they won that year, it's 2009 season.

01:14:16But it's literally underground.

01:14:19You walk into kind of the first,

01:14:21they're like the concourse level.

01:14:22And then if you have a lower seat,

01:14:23you're going down into it.

01:14:26Then there's the field.

01:14:27It's very homey.

01:14:28It's in the middle of a neighborhood

01:14:30separate from the city, like in Orchard Park.

01:14:32You'll see the stadium being built next door.

01:14:34And it's just everything you want

01:14:36in like a very raw football experience.

01:14:38Separate from that,

01:14:39best candy bar in the press box in the entire league.

01:14:42And a little problematic

01:14:43when you're kicking around,

01:14:44wasting time before a 425 kick.

01:14:46But yeah, it's a closer game.

01:14:49We had good things to say about it afterward.

01:14:50Didn't do a full breakdown of that one either.

01:14:52But yeah, recommend the Buffalo trip.

01:14:54They have Swedish Fish,

01:14:56Sour Patch Kids,

01:14:57and Peanut M&Ms,

01:14:58which is just a pretty deadly combination.

01:15:00And some Reese's Pieces,

01:15:02which I tweeted in honor of our fallen soldier there.

01:15:05Yes.

01:15:06So anyway, Mike Reese made it back for the next game.

01:15:09Thank you for spending overtime here.

01:15:11It is going to be a wild week.

01:15:13And hopefully a happy new year

01:15:15to everyone listening and watching.

01:15:17I believe, fingers crossed,

01:15:18we will have a current Patriots player later on next week.

01:15:20Not just for a four minute drill,

01:15:23which resulted Mike Giardi naming Taylor Kyles

01:15:25as the person he would most like to hit every day.

01:15:28Not a media feud.

01:15:29We had some good laughs on Sunday,

01:15:30or Saturday rather.

01:15:31Anyway, Patriots player on for the entire episode.

01:15:33Stay tuned for that.

01:15:35And then, who the hell knows?

01:15:36Next week, Black Monday.

01:15:39But Andrew sits by himself, drinks alone,

01:15:41talks to himself.

01:15:41He's coming back.

01:15:42In the meantime, thank you, Doug.

01:15:43Yep, absolutely.

The Patriots MUST Pursue Mike Vrabel | Pats Interference w/ Callahan & Kyed

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