Titans Writer Paul Kuharsky joins CLNS Media's Taylor Kyles on the latest episode of Patriots Daily to discuss what Mike Vrabel could bring to the Patriots.
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SportsTranscript
00:00I am joined by Robert Griffin, the third James Whitefield.
00:12Yes, Mina Kimes.
00:13All right.
00:14So first play, we're going to look at second into one of the Patriots first offensive plays.
00:21What's going on?
00:22Everyone?
00:23Taylor Kyle's here for CLNS Media coming at you with another episode of Pats Daily brought
00:26to you by our good friends at Prize Picks and Game Time.
00:28And today I'm honored to be joined by Paul Kowarski.
00:32He's a 25 year veteran covering the NFL, been a little bit all over the place.
00:36But most importantly for this conversation, he's been in Tennessee for quite some time
00:41and for the entirety of Mike Vrabel's tenure there as head coach and with Mike Vrabel actually
00:45just completing his interview somewhere in Boston.
00:48You can go in the comments and say where you think you might have been.
00:51The interview is complete.
00:52And as we all know, it feels like Mike Vrabel is the leading candidate.
00:55So for an idea of what Mike Vrabel was like leading in Tennessee and also what he might
01:00bring to the Patriots, we're going to get some of Paul's insights.
01:03So thank you so much for joining, man.
01:05I really appreciate the time.
01:06How are you doing and how has the early part of the off season treated you so far after
01:11what's been a tough year for both franchises, both top five picks this season?
01:14I'm well, thanks for having me.
01:16Yeah, it's been a crappy week here.
01:21We had the GM who kind of got Vrabel fired a year ago, ran Carthon out, Chad Brinker
01:29assuming full football power here a year after he kind of hopscotched Carthon outside of
01:35personnel power and a voice of the Titans, Mike Keith, who's been the radio play-by-play
01:42man and a huge ambassador for this team going back to his alma mater today.
01:48So he's called everything for this team since 1998, I think.
01:55Your most recognizable voice is in radio too, I can hear it right now.
01:59Called Music City Miracle 25 years ago yesterday, going back to his alma mater, a job that does
02:06not come open very often, but going to call basketball and football for the Vols and Titans
02:13at a really low point right now, really need not just the game day stuff, but he's a guy
02:20that could put a happy face on a lot of bad stuff.
02:23So it's kind of cherry on top of all the bad stuff that's happened for the Titans that
02:27he's leaving.
02:28I'm sorry to hear about that, brother, but hopefully we go back to the Vrabel era, maybe
02:32some happy memories.
02:33And I'm actually going to kick off with your impression of Mike Vrabel during your time
02:37covering him.
02:38Obviously had plenty of ups, but also had some downs towards the end of his tenure.
02:42So I'm curious during his time and your time covering him, what was he like as a coach
02:46for you when you were actually covering him as a reporter?
02:49All that stuff?
02:50Well, I like him a lot.
02:51I wrestled with him frequently because he's a difficult guy from a media perspective.
02:58Not Belichickian.
02:59People really overcast him as being like Bill, and he's got a little bit of Bill in him,
03:06but he's in no way a Belichick disciple like guys who coached for Bill and went out into
03:13the league and mostly failed are.
03:17Certainly an influence, but he's also been influenced by other guys.
03:21He played in Pittsburgh, played briefly in Kansas City, worked at Ohio State, worked
03:28for the Texans, cites his high school coach who I met also as a big influence.
03:33His dad was a coach, was a big influence.
03:37But Mike Grable's a good football coach who doesn't let much get by him.
03:43Super, super prepared.
03:45Gave his guys three points of emphasis every week and told them if they did these three
03:50things, if we get two turnovers, if we hold them under 75 yards rushing, if we sack the
04:01quarterback three times, we will win this game.
04:04And guys said, you know, it was like a 90% hit rate that if they did the three things
04:09that he told them they needed to do, they would win a football game.
04:13Now he was better early than he was late.
04:17The last two years were bad.
04:19The roster got thinned out.
04:21There were times with the poor roster that he squeezed more out of them than he had business
04:26doing.
04:27The last two years, it was maybe asking too much and he lost some of his magic.
04:34But there's a reason why he's the hottest prospect on the market now.
04:37And it was a surprise to many of us that he didn't get a job last year.
04:40And we'll dive deeper into what it was that made him successful early before we get into
04:44some of those later years, because when you say the points of emphasis, it's funny.
04:48That is kind of Belichick-y in there because the players, his last season, were saying
04:51the same thing.
04:52They were losing, but they're like, hey, in the meetings, Bill's telling us what to do.
04:55Even Mayo had his points of emphasis, but obviously, Vrabel's a guy who's done it and
04:59did have that measure of success.
05:00So what was it that allowed them to not only, obviously, they just barely missed the playoffs
05:04this first season, then three years in a row, they get there, didn't always win when they
05:08were in the playoffs, but still were a team that it felt like nobody wanted to play during
05:11that stretch.
05:12Yeah.
05:13Went to a championship game when they weren't as talented as teams.
05:18They beat the Patriots along the way there.
05:20The greatest Patriots career.
05:22Yeah.
05:23Beat the Ravens in Baltimore when the Ravens were a much more talented team, it seemed
05:30like, and hung with Kansas City for a little while at Arrowhead.
05:33Three games on the road, a crazy stretch, and it's a team that started very poorly with
05:38Marcus Mariota under center and changed to Ryan Tannehill and then got hot and went a
05:46long way.
05:49Really good at building a culture, having guys believe in things, follow, understands
05:56players, told them, if you've got something that comes up at home, just let me know.
06:01It's not a big deal.
06:06Hands-on on the field, jumps on blocking sleds, gets hands-on with offensive linemen, gets
06:10hands-on with outside linebackers and defensive linemen, positions that he played successfully
06:16in the league.
06:20Got the respect of key guys.
06:23If you're in his doghouse, it was tough to get out, and so I think you really had to
06:29work to earn his trust, but it really meant something.
06:34He designed some things.
06:35There was a game early in his career where they beat the Texans where they were without
06:39their top two tackles, their quarterback.
06:41They ran some wildcat with Derrick Henry.
06:44He had no business winning, and he put it together with tape.
06:48It's a really impressive win, the kind that, again, in the last two years, he didn't have
06:54as much of a core to win with.
06:58He's good with fringe players.
07:01He could patch people in as long as he had, I thought, a spine to the team, but in those
07:09last few years, it was maybe too much for him to overcome.
07:12I think he has a big ego, and it grew as he had success in Tennessee, and it maybe
07:19helped undo him a little bit, though I didn't think it warranted him being fired.
07:23I think it warranted more of a reset than they were willing to offer him.
07:27We'll get into that as well, but I'm curious.
07:29You mentioned the doghouse because with the Patriots, the biggest issue with Gerard May
07:32was just the erosion of the culture.
07:35Things were obviously bad under Gubelicek, but especially the defense, you still saw
07:38they were tough, they were disciplined, and you had guys that clearly bought into what
07:42was being sold, but with the Patriots under Gerard Mayo, you had players starting to talk
07:47out more than usual.
07:48It didn't feel like things were as buttoned up.
07:50Even that one player criticized the fan base, and I'm not sure that kind of thing is going
07:53to fly under someone like Mike Brable, so what were some of the things that got players
07:57in that doghouse, just so Patriots fans have an idea of what things will not fly under
08:01his potential regime?
08:03Well, repeat mistakes.
08:06He frequently said it, including the language, dumb bleep that hurts the team.
08:12He didn't have a high tolerance for dumb bleep that hurt the team, and he talked about that
08:17on a regular basis.
08:18Soft tissue injuries, particularly that guys had repeatedly, and he was big on what guys
08:24did from the time they left the team, like now, until they reported back for the beginning
08:29of the offseason program, and the work they did in that time, the work they did from mid-June
08:35to mid-July when they came back, those five weeks, maybe, that players were on their own,
08:41and he thought those two sections of time away for guys that worked with the team were
08:47really invaluable in terms of setting the tone in what could happen to them with soft
08:51tissue injuries, and they had several guys that were what he called repeat offenders,
08:57and he called them out for it.
08:58David Long was a linebacker that they didn't resign.
09:01He went down to Miami, didn't have as big a problem for a while, and all the Titans
09:05fans were like, well, that's the Titans' fault.
09:08Ultimately, it didn't work out for him in Miami.
09:10Christian Fulton, another guy who played okay for the Chargers for a while, and then wound
09:15up with hamstring problems again, and he's just a guy with hamstring problems, and Vrabel
09:21tried to weed those people out, but they also had huge injury problems while he was here,
09:26and they've had huge injury problems in the years since he left that a lot of people wanted
09:31to account to him overworking guys during the week, but there's no evidence to suggest
09:39how much that's on him and how much, and I'm with him on that.
09:43Colton Dowell, a seventh-round receiver here, towards ACL, getting tied up on a double team
09:48on a special teams play running up the sideline, and that's not the team's training staff or
09:53Mike Vrabel's usage.
09:54It's just crap luck, but they've had too much crap luck under him and in the year with him.
10:01Interesting, the David Long piece, I remember when they kind of let him go, I was so curious
10:05because I always loved the tape that I saw as a player, but that makes a lot of sense.
10:10Being able to actually be on the field, we know that was big under Belichick, and I'm
10:13sure that's a message that he carried as well.
10:15Ironically, they tried to bring David Long back, maybe with three games left in the season,
10:20two games left in the season because they needed to replenish inside linebacker or at
10:24least special teams, and he failed his physical.
10:28The most unfortunate kind of irony, I would think.
10:31But overall, I think Patriots fans, it'll be music to their ears to hear.
10:35They heard, you know, don't make repeat mistakes from DeRod Mayo, but then it turned out he
10:38was making the repeat mistakes and so were his players.
10:40So somebody who's going to hold himself and the rest of the squad accountable, I think
10:44that's going to be a very nice change of pace.
10:46We're going to get more into what didn't go so well for Mike Vrabel because we got to
10:49get the full picture and much more.
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12:01All right, so we've alluded to it, right?
12:03The last couple of seasons didn't go so well for Mike Vrabel.
12:06I've heard it kind of sounded like it was just about everything, but primarily coaching.
12:10But from your perspective, what exactly was it that led to their downfall and what were
12:14the things that Mike Vrabel also was responsible for?
12:17Because when the team does decline, I feel like it can't at all be on the or none of
12:21it can be on the head coach's hands, if that makes sense.
12:24Well, his coaching staff wasn't good enough.
12:27And I read a piece or two, maybe one from Boston, that gave him credit for hiring offensive
12:31coordinators well.
12:32He didn't.
12:33Matt LaFleur was his offensive coordinator his first season.
12:36That was John Robinson, his general manager.
12:38Matt LaFleur interviewed for Mike Vrabel's job with the Titans.
12:43And when he didn't get it and Vrabel didn't get Ryan Day as his offensive coordinator
12:48and maybe somebody else that he wanted, it seemed like John Robinson said, hey, Matt
12:53LaFleur interviewed for the head coaching job.
12:55I like him a lot.
12:56Why don't you take a look at him for offensive coordinator?
12:59And he brought him in.
13:00And Matt LaFleur wasn't a great offensive coordinator in his one year here.
13:04And then Green Bay hired him early rather than late to be head coach.
13:08And he's obviously taken off there.
13:10But he also stepped into the end of the Aaron Rodgers era and a good roster in Green Bay
13:15and has taken off into a very good head coach.
13:19He replaced him wisely with Arthur Smith.
13:22And Arthur Smith was a very good offensive coordinator here.
13:24But Arthur Smith had been on the staff of two or three previous Titans head coaches
13:30working his way up the ranks here.
13:34So credit to Vrabel for recognizing that he was the right guy to promote.
13:38But he didn't find Arthur Smith somewhere.
13:42He inherited Arthur Smith.
13:45And then after Arthur Smith got the job with the Falcons, he turned to Todd Downing, who
13:51he had brought in to coach tight ends to replace Arthur Smith.
13:55Todd Downing, terrible offensive coordinator, terrible play caller.
13:59I'm told that he is a good football coach, but not a good play caller.
14:04That was certainly the case here.
14:07It was certainly the case with the Jets this year.
14:10When he got his chance there, that proved to be the case again.
14:15And then after two years, he replaced him with Tim Kelly, who was involved in Houston
14:21with a little bit with Deshaun Watson when he was a good football player there.
14:27And Kelly didn't have the greatest stuff to work with, but hardly solved the Titans offensive
14:32problems in a big system switch.
14:35So the offensive coordinators were not good enough.
14:39And that's a challenge for Vrabel.
14:41If you're going to have a good young offensive coordinator and he's good, he's going to get
14:47hired away like LeFleur did and like Arthur Smith did for head coaching job.
14:52And you better have people on your staff to funnel through and keep that going.
14:56Any defensive head coach is going to have that issue.
14:59And I don't think Vrabel was as prepared for it as he should have been.
15:03He stuck with a special teams coach who he just thought the media, I had multiple conversations
15:09with him where he just kept telling me, I didn't understand, I didn't understand.
15:13But I understood the kick returns and the punt returns that they were giving up on a
15:16regular basis.
15:17I understood that they never found the returner who wasn't at more risk to fumble than he
15:21was to pop off a big return.
15:25And I understood that finally, Craig Aukerman, his offensive coordinator was fired during
15:31his last season when the special teams gave up two punt blocks, the second of which resulted
15:37in his punter breaking his leg and dislocating or tearing his ACL when he waited so long
15:46to make a move on that.
15:48So if he hires some of these people when he gets his next head coaching job, that would
15:52set off alarm bells to me.
15:54I hope, and I've told him this, just BSing with him, you better do a better job with
15:59your assistant coaches and your staff and your next stop than you did here rather than
16:04thinking that when he fired Keith Carter, the offensive line coach who went to the Jets,
16:11he had an opportunity.
16:12The offensive line was a disaster for a share of his term here after Derrick Henry had run
16:19for 2,000 yards and they had done great work.
16:21It fell apart and they had a chance to hire a new, go out and get somebody with experience
16:28and everything.
16:30And instead he hired Keith Carter's assistant who he said blew him away with his interview.
16:35Well, a great interview didn't give him any experience, which he had none of.
16:40He was bashed for that hiring and the offensive line certainly didn't get much better personnel,
16:45but it also didn't get much better coaching.
16:48So that kind of hit on what my concerns were with Mike Vrabel is one, the fact that, yeah,
16:52he would have to, if the offensive coordinator or play caller that he hires does have success
16:57and they keep having success and he does well, he's going to have to keep hiring these
17:01guys and show that he can identify talent.
17:03And not only that, but the Patriots as a guy who wants more control, right?
17:07I don't think he wants to have full say.
17:09I think he wants to work with the general manager, whoever's going to be at the top,
17:12wants to work with ownership, but he's going to want to have some say.
17:15So I'm curious when it comes to building out that part, like the coaching staff and also
17:19even for the Patriots, the analytics department and the personnel building is very, very behind.
17:25So are you confident?
17:26And I know there was a piece on like him working with the Browns and getting some perspective
17:30from them.
17:31Would you be confident that he has what it takes to build that staff and to build out
17:35some of the other departments and make the Patriots the more well-rounded kind of group,
17:39not just from a personnel perspective, but also for really a team building perspective?
17:45Not an analytics, no.
17:48He's not a big outward believer.
17:50I mean, he believes in them and you saw what he did to the Patriots in that one game where
17:55he took the rules loophole and he abused it.
18:00He understands stuff like that.
18:02And he was a good clock manager and a good user of the rules.
18:09And he says all the time, you tell us what the rules are and we'll play by them.
18:14And he always knew exactly how to best take advantage of things.
18:18He also once punted in a crucial game, maybe a playoff game, might've been the playoff
18:24game against the Bengals the year that they had the number one seed and then lost at home
18:29despite sacking the quarterback nine times where he punted from across midfield on a
18:36fourth and two with the game deep in the fourth quarter.
18:42So not a very analytical decision on that one, but he relied on himself and his right-hand
18:47man, John Stryker, who now works for the Los Angeles Rams and they did the bulk of the
18:53analytics.
18:54He wasn't big on buying into the analytics push that the Titans are making now with Chad
19:00Brinker running the thing.
19:03I don't think he's big on having a big analytics department with a lot of stuff.
19:08I think he thinks it's really his realm and that you don't need a big thing.
19:15Maybe his ideas on that change, if he's picking those people or if it's his department instead
19:22of somebody else's department.
19:24But I think he thinks it's largely overdone by a lot of people.
19:28And then when it comes to the defensive coaching staff, we touched on offense where a lot of
19:31the success he had was for people who were already there.
19:34How did you feel he did when it came to evaluating talent on that side of the coaching staff?
19:38Well, you know, it was shaky for a while with Shane Bowen.
19:45So he had Dean Pease initially, which was a good job, an experienced defensive coordinator
19:53who he had a good relationship with, with his playing days to be a sounding board for
19:58him early on.
20:00And then I think things went south a little bit.
20:03Some players later told stories, maybe him, I don't know if I'm remembering it absolutely
20:10correctly, but I feel like he took the chalk out of Dean's hands.
20:14Dean retired.
20:16And then he had a year where he refused to call Shane Bowen, who was coaching outside
20:23linebackers and defensive coordinator.
20:25But Bowen was kind of the defensive coordinator.
20:28Then the next year, he finally promoted him to defensive coordinator.
20:32And then there was still some confusion as to whether Mike was in charge of the defense
20:38or Bowen was in charge of the defense.
20:40And then finally, Bowen was given clearly control of the defense.
20:46But I do think he had some good assistance on defense.
20:50I think he's a very good teacher on both sides of all.
20:53I think he's a very good teacher.
20:55And I think that comes from his dad having been a coach and a teacher.
21:01And I think some of those things are very effective.
21:04I don't think players are used to seeing a guy, and he's getting older, but he still
21:09hits the gym and hits the sleds.
21:12And you saw highlights of him in Cleveland as an advisor running sprints with Jamis Winston.
21:19He's equipped to beat anybody anymore, but he sure as hell is going to compete.
21:23And I think players love that.
21:25And even the stories of him getting knocked around by the interior offensive line, where
21:28they're like, dude, you're going to get hurt.
21:29You got to be careful out here.
21:31Hopefully, he makes sure he doesn't get himself hurt as the head coach, if he is in New England
21:35or wherever he is.
21:36We won't be able to stay safe.
21:37All right, we got just a couple more questions to close this now.
21:39But first, quick word from our friends over at Game Time.
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22:31All right, Paul.
22:32So just to wrap this one up, obviously, Mike Vrabel has a lot of places that he could grow
22:37as a coach.
22:37Like, I know I've heard that his play calling was too conservative.
22:40I know defensively, he says he wants to be diverse up front, pretty simple on the back
22:43end.
22:44Then obviously, you have Derek Henry, Brian Tannehill, probably going to be a run first
22:47team.
22:48So would you agree that maybe he was a little too conservative, too straightforward as a
22:52coach and as a play caller?
22:53Obviously, he wasn't the one doing it, but he's still the head coach, and it's his system.
22:57And where do you think he can improve at his next stop?
23:00Well, I think offensively, he played to what he had.
23:03He did say at one time later on when people were being presumptive that a heavy run game
23:11was kind of his thing.
23:13He said, look, I walked into Derek Henry.
23:17If I had walked into something else, we might have been something else.
23:22And he famously told Ed Werder at one point near the end of a season or maybe even heading
23:31into a playoff game, if we wanted to throw the ball 50 times, who the hell would we throw
23:36it to?
23:38Kind of talking about the personnel that they had and didn't have.
23:41And listen, the Titans have been a wide receiver black hole for years and years and years.
23:46They have Calvin Ridley now who they signed.
23:48A.J. Brown was the only receiver they drafted and developed who turned into a really good
23:54wide receiver in like 20 years.
23:59And then his GM traded him away in a deal where they tried to get Traylon Burks to be
24:04Justin Jefferson to Stevon Diggs.
24:06That trade doesn't go that way in the Titans world.
24:11So I think he played to his strengths.
24:14They weren't always aggressive.
24:16He had teams, his best teams played good third down defense.
24:20They played good red zone defense.
24:22They played good two minute offense and defense.
24:27They were good situational teams that played smart where the big yarded stats might not
24:32have been good, but the important stuff was.
24:36And I think he could do that.
24:37I think if he came and had Drake May, who we saw this year and obviously did some impressive
24:43things even in the loss to Tennessee, that'd be as good a quarterback situation as he had
24:50since Pete Ryan Tannehill.
24:52And Pete Ryan Tannehill, you know, it was a limited offense.
24:55It was a play action pass offense off Derrick Henry running.
24:59But I don't know about his player evaluation.
25:05I mean, the guys that were clearly his, he had some hits and misses and the Titans at
25:12their best during his time were based around early John Robinson, GM, where he was good
25:20talent wise.
25:21And then John Robinson fell off the face of the world and started drafting guys like Isaiah
25:25Wilson and Caleb Farley and Traylon Burks, whose collective contribution was absolutely
25:31minimal.
25:32And when you have three first round picks like that, you're not going to be a very good
25:35football team.
25:35You said it.
25:37You said it very well.
25:38That's a good way to sum it up.
25:40Hopefully Patriots have plenty of personnel issues, but at least when you have the quarterback,
25:44a lot of caps face, a lot of draft capital.
25:46Once again, if Mike Vrabel were to choose to England, you hope maybe he gets some guys
25:50that can be more of the AJ Brown kind of mold and less of everything that John Robinson
25:55picked towards the end.
25:55But Paul, thank you so, so much for your time.
25:57And I think just let me add one thing.
25:58I mean, I think he's either in New England or he's in Oakland or Las Vegas.
26:03Sorry.
26:04I think there's other places.
26:06I mean, he said as much in the athletic, but it's obvious from his experience here, stable
26:12ownership and a chance with the quarterback.
26:16So Raiders have a decent pick, but I think Brady clearly is going to be taking on a bigger
26:22role there.
26:25He would have a say in who the GM was if they hired him as head coach.
26:29And these other jobs are just nowhere, don't offer nearly as much.
26:33Chicago has a quarterback, but ownership seems kind of wimpy.
26:38The Jets are a mass.
26:40I think those are the two most favorable jobs for the most favorable candidate.
26:47So now I got to ask, do you think that Mike Vrabel took the interview with the Jets as
26:50kind of a way to get the Patriots attention?
26:54We'll see.
26:54I mean, some people should go so far as to speculate that Vrabel is in place in New England
27:00when Mayo is fired, and he took the interview with the Jets for Intel.
27:04Oh, okay.
27:05I actually heard that little bit, but that is interesting, but I will leave with that
27:09fun nugget.
27:09So once again, Paul, seriously, I really, really appreciate you taking the time.
27:12Thank you so much for being on.
27:14Now, before I let you know, go, please let the people know where they can find you and
27:18what's up.
27:18Maybe we should be looking out for if anybody wants to get caught up with what's going on
27:22down there in Music City.
27:23I'm at Paul Kuharski NFL on Twitter slash X.
27:29I don't call it X.
27:30At Paul Kuharski, K-U-H-A-R-S-K-Y NFL on Twitter.
27:37Come check it out.
27:38Don't call it X.
27:39I knew I liked you, Paul.
27:40Thank you so much once again, and thank you all as always for watching.
27:44Now, take care of yourselves.
27:45Take care of each other.
27:46We will see you next time.
27:47Peace, y'all.