The Boston Celtics have made a name for themselves as a team that is pushing the 3-point shot to ever greater heights under head coach Joe Mazzulla, and having done so helped win them a title in 2024. But now there is hand-wringing over the shot by analysts and fans of the team alike as Boston is currently in a bit of a funk from beyond the arc in recent weeks.
Is the team shooting too many treys? Is such a thing even possible? Could it be that the wrong players are taking the shots? To get an answer to all of the above and some historical context with the team and the long-distance shot, the hosts of the CLNS Media "Celtics Lab" podcast joined forces with WEEI's Justin Turpin and SB Nation's Noa Dalzell to talk to former Celtics assistant coach and player Dana Barros for this week's pod.
A pioneer of the shot among Boston's past players, Barros has some interesting opinions on Boston's current slump from deep and plenty of tales to share as well, so this is an episode you do not want to miss.
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Is the team shooting too many treys? Is such a thing even possible? Could it be that the wrong players are taking the shots? To get an answer to all of the above and some historical context with the team and the long-distance shot, the hosts of the CLNS Media "Celtics Lab" podcast joined forces with WEEI's Justin Turpin and SB Nation's Noa Dalzell to talk to former Celtics assistant coach and player Dana Barros for this week's pod.
A pioneer of the shot among Boston's past players, Barros has some interesting opinions on Boston's current slump from deep and plenty of tales to share as well, so this is an episode you do not want to miss.
Celtics Lab is brought to you by Prize Picks and GameTime.
CLNS Media is Powered by:
💰 Prize Picks - https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/CLNS
Download the app today and use Code CLNS when you sign up & Get $50 instantly when you play $5!
🎫 Gametime - https://gametime.co
Take the guesswork out of buying NBA tickets with Gametime. Download the Gametime app, create an account, and use code CLNS for $20 off your first purchase. Download Gametime today. Terms apply. What time is it? Gametime!
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SportsTranscript
00:00Celtics lab is brought to you by ice picks and the game time app.
00:06Alrighty, welcome to the Celtics lab podcast brought to you by price picks, the exclusive
00:11fantasy basketball partner of the CLNS media network, brand new game and by game time tickets
00:15less than tickets, the lowest price guaranteed with time is it's game time. It's also time
00:20to talk to our friend Justin Turpin over at wei Justin, what's up? What's up, guys? Thanks
00:25for having me on. Yeah. I'm Cameron. Justin Quinn is down in Mexico City. Dr. Quinn and
00:32Alex Goldberg. The base god is in Brooklyn. Alex, what's up? Yo, we're hanging out. I'm
00:38actually not in Brooklyn right now. I'm in Orlando. And no magic games coming up. So
00:44I'm just staring at palm trees. Yeah, there are worse problems to have. But there's that
00:50is a problem to have. Terp. You're here because this is a special episode. Anyone who clicked
00:56on already knows what's going down. On Saturday, Peyton Pritchard hosted a basketball event,
01:03a one on one event. And it was hosted at the Dana Barrows basketball club. Dana Barrows
01:07played for the Celtics in the late 90s. And then for a game in 2004. And Turpin and I
01:13went down with Noah Dalzell of Celtics blog. And we talked to Peyton Pritchard. He was
01:20great. We talked to him for a few minutes. I have a story that came out. Turpin's working
01:23on a story off of that that you'll you'll get to enjoy. But we talked to Dana Barrows.
01:27We said, Hey, can we get a few minutes? And he said, Why don't you come into my office?
01:31And we ended up talking to him for like 20 minutes. He's one of those magnetic people
01:35that just loves to talk. So we thought we'd turn that into the entire lab portion of the
01:39programming. So in the second half of this program, listeners, you're going to enjoy
01:43a conversation with me, Justin Turpin, Noah Dalzell, and Dana Barrows, former guard for
01:49the Boston Celtics.
01:50I actually want to interrupt you real quickly, just because someone wrote me today about
01:56Dana Barrows three point streak and how the New York Knicks supposedly intentionally disrupted
02:03it. I don't remember this happening. If anyone does, please let me know.
02:07Well, that's interesting. Well, Turpin, I don't want to give your story away too much.
02:11But do you want to talk a little bit about what Dana said about three point shooting?
02:15Yeah. I mean, that streak you just mentioned is kind of what jumpstarted my idea. And what
02:20I wanted to ask him about was just obviously the biggest discourse surrounding the NBA
02:24now is if there's too many threes. And this guy was ahead of his time, apparently, because
02:29he led the Celtics in three point attempts when he was here, finished top five a couple
02:33of times. So I was curious as to what his thoughts were. And I was actually a little
02:36bit surprised when he said he thought they were taking too many threes, because obviously
02:39he was a three point shooter. And his reasoning was interesting, though, because it's not
02:43necessarily the shot volume, it's who's taking them. It's lower percentage shooters are taking
02:48these threes, which makes the game having too many three pointers now. So I thought
02:53that was interesting from him, especially for a guy who made his career off shooting
02:57the long ball. And obviously, this was way before it really took off. But it was interesting
03:02to hear him say that and his reasoning being the percentages and who's shooting them rather
03:06than the shot volume itself. Yeah, he for context in the mid 90s was shooting
03:12like five ish a game in an era when entire teams are shooting 15 a game. So he was really
03:19a pioneer in that way. And just to preview the conversation at one point, he said, I'm
03:24a humble guy, but I'm probably one of the seven best shooters of all time. So it really
03:28is a fun conversation. I guess, Justin, you can also help us, Justin Turpin with another
03:35sneaky fun conversation. So the Celtics over the weekend lost to the Kings, they just completely
03:42let go of the rope in the fourth quarter. Celtics trapped eight and seven over their last 15.
03:46Then they have a game on Sunday against the eight wind pelicans that goes down to the
03:50literal wire. And the Celtics pull out a win. But it's a it's a one point game. It's not
03:55a convincing win. And after the game, Joe Missoula, a little unprompted, joked and said,
04:02you know what, we're 28 and 11. But it sounds like I'm talking in a morgue here. And he
04:06kind of continued to talk about like, what a privilege it is to be under the gun. Even
04:12though they're such a winning team. And it was Joe to have those moments where he gives,
04:18you know, more than you're expecting, because usually he gives the bare minimum in that
04:20regard. Turpin, what was your kind of read on that moment, just like, Joe being Joe,
04:26and then also to agree with him.
04:28I definitely agree with him. And the read on I had was just he kind of said the quiet
04:32part out loud, like they're not really admitting to that they're kind of keeping it in house
04:36that they want to be the best they can be. And that was the first time that we've really
04:40seen and be like, all right, you know, we've kind of earned this, like last year, they
04:44really stayed grounded, and we didn't earn anything. And then this time, he kind of was
04:48like, all right, you know, we've kind of earned this right, not that we're playing our best
04:52basketball, how we're playing is not okay. But we're not going to stress about it. And
04:56I think that was a very logical way of thinking. And I think that's how a lot of fans feel
05:00now, where last year and years before, it was always we're living and dying by every
05:05loss, everything's magnified, even if a like, even a win last night, or against the Pelicans,
05:11like, you're going to over overthink that. And now it's just kind of like, they're eventually
05:15going to figure it out, because they've earned that trust. And for years, they fought to
05:19earn that trust. And that's why everything was under this microscope every time they
05:24struggled. And that's just not the case anymore. And that was the first time you really saw
05:28them admit it. Because Joe really prides himself on the mindset and the team itself is really
05:32focused on that mindset. And they don't really care about the outside noise and all this,
05:36they're just going to keep doing them. But that was the first time you saw them really
05:40kind of take the ownership, I guess, like take the luxury of being a champion and having
05:46earned that right, and actually use it to their advantage, because he's absolutely right.
05:50Like, they're the third best record wise, their third best team in the league, they've
05:53shown they can hang with both the teams above them. You know, and you mentioned it like
05:58this, even this last stretch, like they're what nine and seven in their last 16. If you're
06:02looking at the Memphis game is kind of the hallmark. That's, that's a fine stretch for
06:07most teams. But again, it's just the expectations and the standard here is so much different.
06:13So I thought that was really interesting. I actually liked him saying that.
06:16Yeah, Alex, just quickly. So Joe, basically on Friday said that wasn't he made it clear
06:23it was an effort thing that they lost the game. Sunday, he said, Look, we missed our
06:27shots. And that's not sustainable. Like, sometimes you just have to roll with the punches. And so he
06:32kind of did to Justin's point split hairs. But Alex, either as a fan or someone with more distance
06:38between, you know, the team and the results, are you buying that those shades of gray,
06:44or does it still kind of just look ugly from a macro perspective?
06:47I mean, I think you can kind of buy the shades of gray and the long run as far as the team.
06:53But I definitely get the sense that there is some urgency amongst the players and some kind
06:59of frustration. And Chris Stapps Porzingis, and Jason Tatum, both have alluded to this in kind
07:05of recent press conferences, which is they don't necessarily feel that they are playing
07:10to their standard of basketball. I think that's the right place to be. And I'm,
07:16I'm happy to hear that from them that they know that they are capable of more than this.
07:21Um, but you know, I mean, listen, as a fan, like it, it sucks to lose to the Kings in a game that
07:28they definitely could have won. Um, you know, I'm not like, as kind of Justin mentioned earlier,
07:34I'm not living and dying with every loss, the same way I was before they won the title, but
07:39it's still blamed, like they should have won that game. And they didn't win that game, because they
07:43kind of stopped playing hard in the fourth quarter. I am kind of interested, though,
07:48in thinking, because, you know, the approach that I've seen Missouri use this year,
07:54feels like it's a lot more experimental than it was in previous seasons, where he's trying stuff
08:00out, he's trying out kind of weird lineups and weird rotations, and kind of giving different
08:04people the ball and kind of different scenarios, I would assume to prepare them as much as possible
08:10for the playoffs. I do kind of wonder, you know, at what point do we start thinking about and this
08:18is where I'm going to get a little spicy with this. So the Celtics net rating with Al Horford
08:24in the starting lineup now has been very good this year. And I don't think this is necessarily
08:30something we should do for the regular season. Because Al Horford probably should be on ice as
08:35much as possible until the playoffs. I do kind of wonder after last year's finals run in which
08:40Al Horford was the starting center for all but two games. How quickly is Joe going to be pulling
08:47that button when it gets to crunch time? I don't know. It'll be interesting.
08:51Let me pause the action. This is called the tease. I'll do an ad read. But the premise
08:55that Alex is suggesting is that Horford should start over Porzingis. Turpin, you can have first
09:00bite of the apple because Noah Dalzell has been talking about that a bunch and we were sitting
09:03next to her last night. So we're better prepared for that spicy take Alex than you know. But first,
09:09let me pause the action talk about our friends over at prize picks. His basketball season is
09:13heating up. And I'm fired up to be using prize picks. And actually sit next to Turpin.
09:20The mayor can attest that I love looking at the lifeline in the middle of the game.
09:26I like the fantasy option of prize picks. And I like that I can turn my cash into 1000 times my
09:32cash at prize pick. So that is my favorite way to check in on the action to make things a little
09:36more spicy. And I'm serious. It's 1000 times. That's not hyperbole. That's the boost. I also
09:42love that they have taco Tuesdays, which you can use prize picks discount select player projections
09:47up to 25%. So even if it's not a marquee game over the weekend, you can still get in a little
09:52weekday fun. So you just pick more or less on your favorite players. Jason Tate, I'm gonna
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10:02Is James Harden going to continue to play like an all star and beat father time here?
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10:20code CLNS get $50 instantly. After you play your first $5 lineup prize picks run your game. Alright,
10:28Turpin take the bait. Should Al Horford start over KP? I think Alex said the reason I wouldn't do it
10:36is because you're pretty much putting him on ice until the postseason. You need him as fresh
10:39as he can be. And it wasn't a problem last year. I thought they did a great job staring him,
10:44but looking back to the 2022 23 season, that Miami series in the Eastern conference finals,
10:50he was out of gas. He lost it. And you can't afford that. And now that's two years ago.
10:55And now you're going to put them in that situation now. And I understand it's a little
10:58bit different. There's not as much pressure on him because they have faith in guys like Cornette and
11:03Keita to relieve him. Honestly, a lot of the times they're up big where they could rest,
11:07rest them as well. And they trust KP, but I just think they're going to ride this until
11:12they figure it out. And I think Porzingis mentioned it last night where they're just
11:15too talented not to figure it out eventually. And we've seen what they can do, how dominant
11:19they were last year. It's just a matter of sticking with it. And I don't think it would
11:23be a problem, but it is something I'd be curious about is how Kristofs would take going to the
11:28bench. Obviously they had that meeting, the top six last year before the season, they all addressed
11:34everyone's willing to do it. But now that Al was the one to do it, he's the one that's used to that
11:39role. And another part of that too, kind of contradicted to what I'm saying is Al's shooting
11:43splits are not that great off the bench. They weren't really that good either last year too,
11:48just, they were so good. It kind of flew under the rug a little bit. And he also started a ton
11:51of games, but I think it would be beneficiary, but it's just, I don't see them doing it only
11:56because Al's already kind of accepted that role. They've already buried that and they've shown how
12:02dominant they can be. It's just a matter of finding their rhythm. So I think the combination of
12:07keeping Al fresh and also letting these guys figure out, and Joe loves these situations.
12:13That's another thing. He loves to make guys try to figure it out on the fly, make them uncomfortable,
12:18push his guys. This is a good opportunity for him to do it. So I don't see it happening though.
12:24I don't think the argument is as farfetched as people might make it seem.
12:29Dr. Quinn, one of the things that has been haranguing this Celtics team is that since
12:34the beginning of December, they're 23rd and three point percent, even though they're still first in
12:38attempts. And you have in our notes that they haven't shot above 34% since the Houston game.
12:43So first of all, I want you to weigh in perhaps on the KP Al Horford thing, but also how much of
12:48their struggle is just three point shooting and we're making mountains out of molehills.
12:53I think you just answered the question for me. Honestly, I am not overly concerned. It is very
12:59weird that a team full of good shooters is not shooting well, particularly considering it's one
13:04of the things they do the most when they play. So I just think that more time and more patience,
13:11and also I'm not, I don't want to make an excuse for the Celtics, but we all kind of expected
13:16around 59, 60, 61 games, and that's what they're on pace to win. So it's not fun to watch,
13:23particularly when they drop games against teams you don't want them to be dropping games to,
13:27but I don't really see it as a huge deal yet either.
13:31Yeah, we were talking about this in the elevator last night that Boston was 37 and 12 last year.
13:38And if they had lost to the Kings, they're 27 and 12. And unfortunately for the Celtics,
13:44the stretch they're in, just like you can line up comparisons that look stark. But in the grand
13:50scheme of things, we also spent the entire summer and fall saying the regular season doesn't matter.
13:53The regular season doesn't matter. And maybe our paycheck depends on us, you know, making
14:01drama out of this. But in the grand scheme of things, I can't imagine that
14:06anything that's happening right now has any bearing on what happens in May and June.
14:10But it's gonna be quite embarrassing when that doesn't pan out. Yeah, Alex, I'll take the bait
14:17too. I think that Porzingis is still getting into rhythm. He has looked awful shooting threes,
14:23but the threes that he takes, speaking of Dana Barrows, are cocky and deep, and that's really
14:29helpful. And the pivot that he plays when he's inside, either just like rising up and shooting
14:34over guys, or going inside outside is still super valuable. I will say, interestingly,
14:41the lineup tweaking, we've seen a lot of Jason has to play with the bench guys, and Jalen gets
14:49to play with Porzingis. Against the Kings, actually, we saw the opposite, and Jason got
14:53some run with Porzingis. I'm curious about that. Before we close out the news section,
14:58Turpin, is there anything about the past few weeks and some of the rotations and changes that you
15:04think deserve more spotlight? Yeah, I think Alex kind of hit on it too, where they're mixing it up.
15:11He's being experimental. But he's been doing the Jason playing the first quarter all year,
15:16and it felt weird to me in the beginning, just because Jalen really took pride in that role.
15:21He really enjoyed it, and he excelled in it last year. And Joe said it's kind of keeping the
15:27defense on their toes, keeping other teams on their toes is why they're doing it. But it was
15:31just interesting to me, just because of how dominant Jalen was in that role. I'd like to
15:36see Jalen get a couple more shots at it, just because their first quarter, especially recently,
15:40has not been great. It's the first and the fourth quarters. They've been struggling. So
15:44maybe you tinker with that a little bit, because they've been interchangeable with that. When Jalen
15:48has it going, Joe's left them in. When Jason has it going, well, he usually finishes anyway, so it
15:52doesn't matter. But he's shown a willingness to get away from that and tinker with different
15:57things. So I think that's one that I'm really keeping an eye on, just because you don't really
16:01think about it as much. I think when you're talking about the lineups, a lot of people
16:05just focus on the starting five and the closing five. That's really it. But those sub-patterns
16:10within the game, like Jason playing the first quarter over Jalen, and obviously Jason's a
16:15great player, and he's capable of it too, but Jalen just so aggressive in the first quarter,
16:19because he makes it a point to kind of set the tone, and that's something he takes pride in.
16:23So I'd like to see him get a little bit more burn in the first quarter. Maybe mix that up a little
16:27bit, because you know, at the end of the game, the closing lineups are still going to be the same.
16:31They're always going to lead back, no matter what he does with the sub-patterns, it's all going to
16:35lead back to the starting five, maybe Peyton or Allen there, but those are the seven that are
16:40going to close. There's no one else. The only thing, I'll push back on that and say that,
16:45so Jason plays the entire first quarter, and so the second, and often the entire third,
16:49so the second and fourth start with Jason on the bench. We've seen a couple games where the second
16:54quarter, then Jalen goes beast mode, and it's great, and the Celtics, you know, get into a
16:58little offensive rhythm, but against the Kings, against the Thunder, against the Pacers, with
17:05Jason on the bench, the fourth quarter has started a disaster, and suddenly the Celtics are down
17:0910 points, and they're playing on the back foot. So I'm curious about that rotation insofar as
17:15Jason, I think Jason's defense is quite underrated, and I think taking him out to start the fourth
17:22has been problematic. He and DeJounte Murray didn't check in until the six and a half minute
17:27mark in the fourth quarter last night, and maybe that's to let other guys flounder and see what
17:32sticks, and maybe that's Jason needs a longer rest, but actually, my conspiracy is that Joe
17:39just doesn't want any team to have any good tape on the Celtics, but I don't like that substitution
17:45pattern specifically, because they're getting popped in the fourth. I think at one point,
17:50they are going to have to get to what they want to do, because as much as you don't want to show
17:54anything, Joe says it all the time as well, it's about building habits in the regular season,
17:59and if guys aren't getting into the flow of who they're going to be playing with in the post
18:03season, hence what we're seeing with the starting five right now, there could be some issues. So
18:07eventually, I wouldn't be surprised if there's changes just for that pure fact. Sure. So let's
18:13finish the news that we have in our rundown, and a few of them are a little outdated and also silly,
18:18so I'm going to do it this way. We haven't yet talked about the Brandon Jennings Jason Tatum
18:25situation. I'm going to ask you all to summarize that situation in one word. I'm going to assume,
18:30so while you guys think about it, I'm going to assume people who are listening to this podcast
18:34know that Brandon Jennings called Jason Tatum soft. Jason Tatum posted about it on Instagram,
18:39and then had an okay game, but not a great game after that, admittedly. So I would describe
18:46that kerfuffle as boring, despite the fact that it clicked a lot of things. Justin Quinn,
18:55how would you describe the Brandon Jennings Jason Tatum kerfuffle of 2025?
18:59Who?
19:00Yes.
19:01Ah, you took mine! Come on!
19:04That's infuriating. All right, you got to go next while I think of another one.
19:10Clicks.
19:10Clicks.
19:13Yep. And Alex?
19:16I guess I'll go with loser.
19:22Again, I hope people listen to this conversation with Dana Barrows. I think the problem is,
19:27so former players have perspectives none of us possibly could, and I really appreciate that,
19:33and I hope you appreciate the conversation with Dana Barrows. I think problematically,
19:37players are fitting the mold of the guys on first take, and now instead of getting unique,
19:44different media, players are just doing an impression of the guys you get on ESPN in the
19:52morning. And I don't need Brandon Jennings to generate hot clicks. I'd actually like to hear
19:56his stories. Which is to say that please stick around for this conversation between Justin
20:03Turpin of EEI, our guest today, WEEI for those who don't know, Noah Delzell of Celtics blog,
20:10and me of this podcast. Through the magic of editing, we'll take you away to our conversation
20:15with Dana Barrows, who really is a rocket. Mr. Barrows, thank you very much, and he's got a
20:20podcast coming out, so stay tuned. But first, I'm going to pause the action and talk about our
20:25friends over at game time, because the NFL playoffs are heating up, the NBA season is heating up,
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21:07they've got all sorts of tickets, but you have the peace of mind of knowing that you're not
21:11breaking the bank and worrying that you paid too much. So whether it's the NFL playoffs,
21:17the college football playoff is coming up, is that right? A week from the final? A week from
21:22tonight, go on Game Time, find your tickets if you're a college football fan. Or if you're a
21:26basketball fan, you can get Celtics tickets, BC tickets, etc, etc. So go download the Game Time
21:32app. Go use the promo code CLNS for $20 off. Terms apply. Again, download the Game Time app,
21:40create an account, redeem the code CLNS for $20 off. Download Game Time today. What time is it?
21:45It's game time. It's also time for our conversation with Dana Barros. So for Dr. Justin Quinn and for
21:51the bass god, Alex Goldberg, who's available for your bass needs in the New York area. Thank you
21:56very much. And from all of us here at Celtics Lab, thank you to Justin Quinn of W... Justin
22:03Turpin. There's too many Justins in the damn chat. It happens. It happens. Mayor Turpin,
22:09where can they find you? You can find me on WEI on Wednesdays at 1130 on the midday program with
22:16Jones and Keith. And you can get me on Twitter at Justin M. Turpin. Yeah, so if you need to know
22:22more about what the hell is going on with the Bruins, those are your people. Okay, stick around
22:27for a conversation with former Celtics guard Dana Barros. Until next time, adios. I come in here
22:32like crazy, like, I say at least three, four days a week, especially in the summer more,
22:37while the kids are at school. I come in here, I turn up music on every court and just shoot by
22:41myself. I don't do it as much, but like the first three, four years, it would be almost every day.
22:47I saw you still got it at the 25 for 25, the thing with Fourier at the Ardbeg Center. And that was a
22:53bad shooting day. I saw the videos. That was a bad shooting day and it was still hot. But that's why
23:00I love Prince, because I told him only number 11s, you know, we be shooting. That's right,
23:04that's right. Yeah, how much connectivity do you still have with the team? I've been doing
23:10consultants for like 16 years now. Cool. So I retired in 04 and Danny, Paul was a good friend
23:18of mine when I played. So Danny was just like, hey, can you just hang around, keep Paul, keep
23:23Paul in check. And so I was assistant coach for one year, full year. Yeah. Director of player
23:29development for the 08 championship. Yep. And then I just went to consultant. Once I started doing
23:34this, I didn't want to do that. How hands-on when you're in the player development, how hands-on
23:40are you guys with everything? Obviously, like Joe Mazula was really intentional in giving those guys
23:44credit. How hands-on are you guys in scout, whatever it may be? Pretty hands-on. I mean,
23:50my specific guy was big baby. Every single day we did pick and roll. So I would come off, try it,
23:55and he got the pump. So we did like seven different moves and I work on the post-ups.
24:00I did Stefan Marbury every day when he was here for that short period of time. But
24:04yeah, you really specific. Guys are really anal about their program up to the game. Like Ray,
24:11I remember one day I was in the gym early just doing an appearance and Ray was in there shooting
24:16and I went out to go help rebound and they was like, don't touch the ball. And they're like,
24:23he doesn't want anyone to touch the ball. Boys were like frantic. Don't touch the ball. So I was
24:29like, whoa, but that's how players are. And it's people too. So they have Sam Cassell in a role
24:37like that. Plus, have you talked to him at all about, you know, supporting the team in that
24:41specific way? No, but Sam, I know who Sam is. Sam was, he was a coach when he was playing.
24:47The way he talks now is the way he was. He's also like the mayor of TD Garden. Yeah,
24:50there you go. Right. He'll walk in and he'll talk to Akeem. He'll tell Akeem what he's supposed to
24:54do. So that's the way he was the whole time. Yeah. So he's really just staying in his role
24:59as he was. And I'm sure the thing about him that I love is he's going to say whatever it is.
25:05Yeah. And that's what it is. You know, he's not going to sugar coat. He's going to.
25:08How do you think that balances with Joe? I think that's great. I think Joe is a straight
25:12up and honest person, like straight up and down, like there's black and white.
25:17There's Joe, you know what I'm saying? So yeah, I think that fits in perfectly.
25:23Being a former player, whether you subconsciously believe it or not,
25:29that gives you a little more credibility to the players that are playing now.
25:32Yeah. Being a former, do you have to be an NBA player for that or the fact that Joe played in
25:36college? No, even if you won championships in college, like there's a certain amount of
25:40credibility that in the back of our mind as a player, like, can I really, does this guy really,
25:46really understand basketball? Because like, I know there could be people who study something
25:53and be amazing at knowing it, but can't actually do it. And when you do it, when I played the game,
25:59it looks totally different from when I coached the game and when I watched film.
26:03So there's so many perspectives. I only see it as a player.
26:06I feel that. So they do this full time. I'm a high school teacher during the day and I do
26:10this part time and I don't have kids. So I know that like whatever my perspective is in the
26:14classroom, it only goes a certain distance because I don't have kids yet. And so I know I
26:18can't like see around that corner. Right, right. And when you were playing, obviously you were
26:22ahead of your time with the three point shooting. That's one of the biggest debates now in the NBA.
26:26Do you think there are too many threes now? I do. I think every team doesn't have the ability to do
26:32it. You know, I think Golden State obviously set a precedent to where everyone's been trying to
26:36follow that for the last 10 years or so. And I think we have come the closest to doing it. I
26:43mean, we have seven, eight guys who can literally shoot 40 percent from the three. But then you get
26:48outside that box and then you get teams that have maybe two or three good shooters. And now we see
26:54five for 40 games constantly. And we see because even the Celtics being the best three point
26:59shooting team in the league, we go two for 13 in a quarter or a half. You know, we'll be down 20
27:05in one quarter. We're up 16, you know, in a 36 point swing because we went eight for 12 that
27:11quarter. So that's just the way the game is. And it's going to be ugly basketball. Even for me, I see
27:17three on one, two guys go to the corner and you got 30 percent three point shooters shooting
27:22threes on the three on one. And it's like, whoa, like that's a little too much.
27:26I looked at it today, actually. You were a big three point shooter. Your career high was five
27:30attempts per game. That's all eight of them. All eight of the top Celtics average five.
27:37And Steph, what average is what, 14 a game? That's more than the team's average in the 90s.
27:43I think in the 90s and 95, when I made the all-star team, somebody told me a stat that
27:48in 95, the team's average 13 and a half or 12 and a half threes per game. And that's what
27:55one player is averaging. So do you think it's more of like you got to adjust when it's not
28:01working? Because clearly the Celtics have shown it can work. Do you think it's something it just has
28:05to adjust to when it's not following? I don't think the analytics calls for you to adjust.
28:09I think it calls you to shoot more. You know, like that's just the way it is. I don't I don't
28:15particularly think that's great. You know what I mean? Analytics has changed the game in so many
28:20ways. But I kind of stand back and I say, OK, it's great. But how many free throws are we taking out
28:27of the game because we're not driving and are we getting opposite teams, players in foul trouble?
28:33You know, like when I played, your best player had you're going to have to guard. We're going to
28:37we're going to go at you to get you in foul trouble five times in a row in the first quarter.
28:42You know what I mean? What were the conversations like surrounding the three when you were playing?
28:47I mean, I took a lot of flack, you know, even though I was a 41 percent shooter. But if I came
28:52out 0 for 2 or 0 for 3 and I would shoot two and three feet behind the line, I would hear
28:57the announcers watching the game go. No wonder Barrows hasn't played in three games. He's taking
29:03shots like that. But that was my shot. If you didn't know me, you wouldn't know that was my shot.
29:07Yeah. So I was totally like just ahead other than Reggie Miller and then like Dan Marley and some
29:13other guys started really shooting behind the line. Was that all you or was that a team initiative?
29:19Oh, that was just me. I have colleagues. Well, we played in the Big East tournament.
29:23I have posted videos where I'm shooting three feet behind the NBA line in 1989.
29:30I'm shooting from the logo. So it wasn't my height and people, you know, thinking all I can do is
29:37shoot. They just kept getting up on me more and more. So I just kept pushing my game further
29:41and further out. But I could still go by and do the floater thing. When you see, you know,
29:46much worse shooters getting up so many times now, do you wish you had had that opportunity or
29:50do you almost feel like everybody shoots threes now is something that maybe was a
29:53distinguisher for you would have been less? I would definitely wish I had that opportunity.
29:57My first of my rookie year, I was drafted by Bernie Bickerstaff, who would take me out the
30:01game if I didn't shoot. Right. So he was one of the first guys who just wanted to go. Then he
30:07went to Denver and they scored one hundred and thirty points a game. So he was one of the guys
30:11that drafted me. And I thought was the perfect situation. One year after that, he goes to Denver.
30:16K.C. Jones comes in and he's like, don't you ever shoot a three unless the ball goes inside first.
30:22So I was I had eleven coaches in 14 years and they all wanted something different.
30:27They had the game was just different. And on the three point, it's one of the biggest
30:31conversations. If the Celtics relied too heavily on the three, they won a championship last year.
30:35Do you think they can do it again with this approach? I mean, you have to shoot well.
30:40I mean, they won before, but we've also we've been to what, five Eastern Conference finals and we've
30:46had I think we have the best chance now. And I think people used to look at Marcus and get mad.
30:51Why is he taking all the three? That was the system. Yeah. Now we look back and you say
30:55that was a system, right? He was he was taking a little too many. Right. But
31:00that's what he was told to do. You know, maybe not towards the end of the game.
31:04But that was the system. Everyone was trying to get him to shoot and the whole team was trying
31:10to play that way. And we didn't have the right personnel. But now we have the best personnel
31:14on the team to do. And that's why we're successful. So you're a New England guy through and through.
31:20And New England isn't known for hoops necessarily, but especially now with AJ and Cooper coming
31:24around the corner. What do you think is a misconception about hoops in New England?
31:28And what do you think is the future? Well, AJ works out here all the time,
31:31all summer. He worked out here all summer. His dad is a good friend of mine. So I think we have
31:36an underrated Boston basketball. We have about seven or eight players in the league. I mean,
31:41going back to Nellis Noel, Mike Carter Williams, George Deang, you probably still have four or
31:47five still in there now. So we've had great talent. We just don't get them to stay home in college.
31:53So they go from here to Kansas and you think they're from somewhere out there. But, you know,
31:58we don't keep the talent. And that's something that Boston has to change. Boston College,
32:02definitely, you know, hopefully we can get a guy like AJ one time to stay. That would be awesome.
32:08I have a question for you just as a former NBA player. A lot of times when we're doing our job
32:13writing about the team, we hear about like this team's just not trying today or there's just a
32:16lack of effort. And my dad played overseas for a long time. So he always tells me to kind of
32:21push back on this idea that it's not just an effort thing. I'm curious from your standpoint,
32:25when you see a team like it happened in the finals last year, they came out of game four and
32:28it looked like they were being out hustled for rebounds. And it's like, obviously, everybody
32:32wants to win the championship tonight. What do you think, like, from a player standpoint, those
32:35really flat performances? Are there other things that we're not thinking of as reporters that
32:40are contributing like a rhythm or a flow or things like that? I think one thing that and this is
32:45where we say if you played this game is totally different than someone who has never played.
32:50There's an energy in the building, right? And the fans don't understand how much power they have.
32:56And when that energy goes bad, or that energy is low, the fans aren't into the game,
33:02the players aren't into the game, and you're all waiting for the first six minutes, you're kind of
33:05like, what are we going to do with down? That energy doesn't change. Then that becomes a game,
33:11a half, then it becomes a third quarter. But if someone steals the ball and gets a dunk,
33:17the whole energy in the building changes or someone gets attacked, someone gets into a fight,
33:21the energy changes, and that affects us so much. Some of us less than others, great players,
33:28it doesn't affect them as much. But you ever seen a shooter who goes over four,
33:32and then the fans are like, shoot it! And then he's like, oh, shit.
33:36The energy is messed up. It's totally messed up. And that affects you as a player. And I don't
33:41think fans realize that as much as we as players realize that when you walk out in that warm up
33:47line. Sometimes it's just like, oh my god. And other times it's like, oh, shit, I don't feel
33:53good. You just don't have it. Kind of off that, there's a cliche, it's like sometimes you just
33:58don't have it. Right. Is that true? Definitely. I used to box, not real box, but I would do
34:06sparring and stuff, and I would know I had a bulk. I would do the same exact thing,
34:10eat the same food. And some days I would feel like I was out at the club all night.
34:15I had no energy, and I don't know what it is. And that's the thing about sports, and that's why it's
34:22crazier than Hollywood can write. You know what I mean? You look at sports, it's the craziest shit
34:28you ever seen in your life. How contagious is it when one guy doesn't have a lot of energy,
34:33and maybe another guy doesn't? Do you feel like it becomes a thing where even if you started the
34:38game feeling good, it's really not? Yes, because of the crowd. If the crowd starts to pick that
34:43energy up, and pick that energy up. We were winning, we won what, 58, 60 games? We've been
34:49booed a couple of times last year to where the crowd got to the point where, okay, this is not
34:55just basketball. The good teams aren't affected as much. You have to have a player like a Michael
35:03Jordan, a Tatum, who aren't scared to take those shots. You know what I mean? A lot of guys are
35:09scared. I've been at All-Stars, and been in the huddle. I'm not even in the game, and they're
35:13like, you're getting the ball, and the guy's like, oh, I'm done. He's looking around like,
35:17I don't really want the ball. Energy is huge. You got to have self, you got to have that inside,
35:23and that's the key. Most people don't want great, great. I was just going to ask you about
35:29Pritchard. You're doing this event with him, but do you ever work with him? How much synergy
35:35have you guys had? I just love him. I would go out on the court, and I would always have my
35:39number 11 jersey on, like two and three years ago in the playoffs. He wasn't really playing that
35:45much, and he would see me look, and I think he saw me, and he dapped me up, and I think he thought
35:50I had a Pritchard shirt on at first, right? Then I think he saw me one time where he saw the back
35:55of it and said, Barrels, and I think I saw him and was like ... Then I went up to him and was like,
36:00yo, I used to play, and he's like, oh, because the names are on the locker, Barrels. He probably
36:04didn't recognize me, but he recognized me. From that point, I'm screaming at him, yo,
36:08I need three this half, and he looks at me and goes, I got you. We have that type of thing where
36:13I say, come on, shooter. He comes in the game. If there's seven seconds left in the half,
36:18I'll be like, you know what's going to happen, Pritch. You know he's going to hit the buzzer
36:21beater, right? We have that rapport on the court. I'm always yelling out to him. We need one right
36:26now. We need one right now. That's my thing, is to shoot. I call him the shooter. He seems like
36:31he takes to coaching really, really well. He's so humble. He's humble. He's like a rock star
36:39around here. He really is, man. He's just like a rock star. The thing that makes me really step
36:47back is the confidence that the other players have. I know basketball. I know that when he has
36:51the ball, and I see Tatum and Brown kind of like, all right, go ahead. It's your turn. You know what
36:56I mean? They know he can play. They know he can get it done, and it's not just go stand in the
37:01corner. When I see that respect, I see that they know because they play against him every day in
37:05practice. I think he's earned a lot, man. He's put the time. Now that you know him personally,
37:10who would win the three-point contest? Shit, now he tearing my legs. But I would never.
37:18If Steph Curry was sitting here, I would say, you can't beat me, though. That's just the way I am,
37:24right? He might light me up, but I'm just going to say you can't beat me. In my prime, I feel like
37:31I'm definitely top seven shooter all the time. I'm not talking about the guy that stands in the
37:39corner. I'm talking about off the dribble. I am one of the best off the dribble shooters ever.
37:45Pick and roll. I can come off of down screen. That to me, as a humble person, that's the only
37:50thing I will say I know. I know this about me. I definitely have that confidence in terms of
37:57shooting. Who in the league do you think plays the most like you did? What? Who in the league
38:03right now plays the most like you did? I would say Trae Young. Oh, cool. I would shoot it,
38:11but then as soon as you try to get me, I'd split you and shoot the floater in the lane. I was a
38:15great floater. I play like a Trae Young, you know what I mean? That type of guy. He's really a
38:23scoring one, you know what I mean? But still can get eight or 10 assists. Yeah, I see that.
38:27I just asked Peyton this, but do you think you can be a successful NBA player and not have an
38:31incredible work ethic? We always hear about the ones that have a good work ethic, but-
38:35I guess if you're- He said you can, like he's thinking of someone in particular.
38:40I know. You can. You 6'7", with a 43 inch vertical and a 4'2", 9'40",
38:47you're going to get in the league just because they think you're raw, you know what I mean?
38:52So yeah, and being a guy like he's, like a guy like me who works his ass off,
38:57you know immediately when you get to a team and you see people who don't have that and it pisses
39:02you off inside, because he's playing 30 minutes. He comes to practice one minute before.
39:11He's doing this and he's doing that, but he's so raw and athletic, he gets away with it,
39:17you know what I mean? Because he does things in the game that are spectacular.
39:21As a former player, how much do you respect that work ethic, like somebody from baby,
39:25like just seeing him grind like that? I love it. It reminds me of myself too.
39:29He had to, what is this, his fifth year? He had to go through some trials and tribulations to
39:33get here. He had to stand up on 10 toes and speak his mind about what he maybe wanted to do,
39:39you know what I mean? I had to do that in Seattle. I said, look, if I come back to Seattle next year,
39:45you're going to see the craziest person you've ever seen in your life. They never heard me talk
39:48like that. I don't talk like that. I said, but I've been here five years playing behind Gary Payton.
39:53I don't even know what I can do. What am I supposed to do? Finish my contract and go to
39:58the CBA because I'd never get a chance? They traded me, you know? I give him a lot of credit,
40:03man. He did a waiver and he's in the perfect system. They're lucky they signed him two years
40:09ago. Shoot, he was up this year or something? What? Oh my goodness. I give him a lot of credit,
40:16man. It's tough, man. It's tough for little guards and he's a power guard. He can pose,
40:22he can shoot, and he's in a system where he's got a lot of great players and he's still doing his
40:27thing. Yeah. All right, Dana, this was... Thank you so much.