James is back to discuss Sunderland's 1-0 loss to Stoke City at the Bet365 Stadium and answer all your questions on the big talking points
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00:00Hello everybody, welcome to On The Whistle brought to you by the Sunderland Echo. My
00:15name's James Copley and I'm standing in for Phil Smith today. Phil's done a lot of hard
00:19miles over the last couple of weeks to Millwall and the like, so he's sitting this one out
00:25and you've got me, but he should be back for the Sheffield United game on New Year's Day.
00:30Obviously I'm coming to you all after Sunderland lost at Stoke City at the Bet365 Stadium.
00:35I was down there, 92nd minute winner by Leicester City loanee and ex-Sunderland target Tom Cannon,
00:42which was very, very unfortunate. I thought Sunderland were good value for a point, to
00:47be brutally honest. I thought on another day they could have missed it. There was the Chris
00:50Mepham penalty shot, which I think is a blatant penalty from Berger. Sunderland came up against
00:57Victor Johansson in Stoke City's goal, who I think is probably the best goalkeeper in the
01:01championship or certainly in the conversation. I thought he pulled off a couple of tremendous
01:06saves. Sunderland hit the post twice in the game and had it not been for Johansson, I think they
01:13could have and should have scored in the game. Obviously Eliezer Maienda had that chance that
01:18he had to score obviously four yards out. That's two in two games, one against Blackburn Rovers now
01:22where he really should have put us in the lead and it's hugely unfortunate for him. But yeah,
01:28I thought Sunderland were well worth a point and possibly on another day should have won the game.
01:35I think what you do have to say as well is that Stoke did have chances. Anthony Patterson did
01:38pull off a couple of good saves, especially in the first half as well. So yeah, let's get
01:44into some of your questions which are going to come from Blue Sky initially. Ross Robson says,
01:52should the club stick or twist in January? Ross says, if we stick we have to wait for the injured
01:58players to come back and hope they stay fit. Twist, if we do that we bloat the squad with a
02:04few short-term additions to fill some of the gaps in the team squad. I think this is a really,
02:10really interesting question. Obviously Sunderland do have a lot of players to come back from injury.
02:13You know, Chris Rigg needs to come back from injury. Alan Brown will come back from injury.
02:17You hope Romain Mundell and Tommy Watson will come back from injury. You know, Sam Ed, are we going
02:22to see him at some point? You'd think that if he can get a run of games going then that would be
02:27crucial in the second half of Sunderland's season. But there's no sign of him yet so you can't hang
02:31your hat on him. Pervade continues to be in and out the squad. So I feel, despite the fact that I
02:37quite like Wilson Isidore, obviously he's on six goals for the season. He went seven without a goal.
02:42I do think Sunderland need additions up front. I think we need to score goals. I think that's what
02:48gets you out of the championship. That's what gets you out of any division across football. No matter
02:53if you're going for promotion, you know, even if you're fighting relegation, goals will save you.
02:58Clean sheets are important, obviously. Defence is important but goals win football games and I like
03:03Wilson. He's done a decent job so far, barring that sort of barren run. But you just feel like the
03:10top teams in the division. I think, you know, Sunderland non-executive director Dave Jones made
03:14the point, didn't he, on a podcast recently that Ipswich Town had three or four, five attacking
03:19options. They could all score goals and it helped to fire them to the Premier League and they were
03:24winning a lot of games late on. Now Sunderland are dropping points late on and I think that's
03:29telling. Obviously, Maienda can play up front but for me, he does look very raw. He's 19 years old.
03:36I don't think we should crucify him for his two misses against Blackburn and Stoke City but he
03:42does have to be doing better from those positions. Does he need a little bit of time out the firing
03:45line? Yes, I think so. You know, Sunderland brought in Aaron Connolly over the summer but
03:50he hasn't really done too much as goal against Millwall aside. So, I think Sunderland need
03:56a couple of really, really high quality additions up front. Perhaps Premier League
04:01loanees. We know that they tried for another loanee from a Premier League club in the summer
04:07but that sort of fell through. So, I think this is a really interesting January for Sunderland.
04:12I don't expect a lot of business. I don't think you can rule out Sunderland maybe pulling the
04:18trigger on a Romain Mundel or a player of that ilk for the future. I think that's something
04:23they will definitely look to do if something comes available but I would like to see them get
04:27some high quality loans. Maybe even a permanent addition as well. The blueprint I would use for
04:31that would be the Chris Mepham transfer in the summer. Sunderland pulled the trigger on that
04:37and they got a high quality player on a season's loan who can contribute and contribute immediately.
04:44I don't think we can sign a lot of players in January who are going to take a while to get
04:49up to speed because there are gaps in the squad that need filling and I just think you do need
04:55that extra firepower. I think one or two quality additions with the likes of Alan Brown and Mundel
05:01and Chris Rigg, Tommy Watson to come back, I think could really aid Sunderland's promotion push.
05:10Let's have a look what we've got here.
05:15Do we need to buy some more robust players, Chris says on Blue Sky. I think this is a really
05:20interesting question. Obviously Sunderland in the summer went and got Sam Edd and he hasn't
05:27kicked a football for Sunderland yet. Obviously he's been injured, he had a setback when he joined
05:33the club. That's really, really unfortunate but there's a little bit of a theme isn't there because
05:37Perverde has been in and out, he's been injured, he dropped out of the squad again against Stoke
05:43City and there's Abdullahi as well who signed for Sunderland injured who hasn't played yet. So yeah,
05:50I think we do need robust players to come into Sunderland. I do feel like Sunderland have been
05:54a little bit unfortunate with the injuries that they have suffered. I know the medical team can
05:59sort of be questioned on social media but a lot of these injuries, barring really Romain Mundel's,
06:05which was a muscle injury, have been sort of impact injuries in games. You think of Alan Brown
06:11breaking his leg, you think of Chris Riggs' recent injury was an impact injury, Tommy Watson's injury
06:17was an impact injury. He took a shot and it was blocked and obviously that's harmed his ankle and
06:23his leg. So yeah, I think you always want to get robust players into the football club and I would
06:28sort of point towards Chris Mepperman as well because he seems very, very robust. He seems
06:33sort of familiar with the patterns of first team football and the rigours of it. Obviously,
06:37he's been promoted before from the championship he's played in the Premier League so he can sort
06:41of withstand multiple games. But the point to make is that the games do come thick and fast,
06:48they've come thick and fast over Christmas. They're only going to get faster as we head into
06:52the new year and you do need players to stand up to the physical challenge. Let's have a look here,
06:58what else do we have? German Black Cats asked, are any of our strikers on the level to play for
07:08promotion? Should Lebris bring on Ogunsui instead of, again, poor Aaron Connolly? There was a couple
07:16of questions on Aaron Connolly and of this ilk. It's difficult, isn't it, because he was brought
07:23on towards the end of the game. He didn't really have too much of a chance to make an impact.
07:28I do feel a bit for Aaron Connolly in a sense that he started against Millwall, didn't he,
07:32and he scored that goal and then he's sort of been in and out, you know, left on the bench by
07:36Lebris a couple of times and Lebris sort of hinted that he needed to do it a bit better in training,
07:42essentially, and maintain his levels. But he's never really had that run, isn't it? And I think
07:46that's what us as fans and pundits and whatnot could really underestimate is the power of a run
07:53in a side. Now, Connolly hasn't played five, ten games in a row, so I find it's really hard to
07:59judge him. Yeah, it's a strange one in the fact that Lebris has sort of started to trust him less
08:07as the season's gone on. I'm not sure what's happening there or what his levels are like
08:11in training, but in terms of, as I mentioned earlier, you know, getting promoted, you do need
08:16quality and you do need goals and Aaron Connolly, I would suggest at the moment, possibly isn't
08:22bringing that. I think the Trey Ogunsui question is a really, really interesting point that
08:26German Black Cats makes on Blue Sky because Liverpool are absolutely interested in Simon
08:32Trey Ogunsui, who is having a fantastic season for the under-21s and under-18s. I don't have
08:37the figures off the top of my head, but his goal contributions are absolutely fantastic.
08:42So Sunderland want to keep him and that's why you're seeing him involved in the first team
08:46squad because Sunderland want to keep hold of him and obviously because his performance is
08:51merit that, I think he could be the next big thing in Sunderland in terms of the next Chris
08:57Reid, the next Tommy Watson. I don't want to put too much pressure on him obviously, but I think
09:01he could be the next sort of star that breaks through and has an impact on the first team if
09:06he stays fit. I think he's a huge talent and I think depending on where Sunderland are come
09:13the end of the season, I think you could see him get his first minutes of the campaign and of a
09:19senior career at some point, similarly to I think towards Watson maybe towards the back end of last
09:25season. I know he made his debut against Huddersfield quite a long time ago, but there
09:29was a couple of games towards the back end of last season, wasn't there, under Mike Dodds where
09:32Tommy Watson was brought on late. I think that Ogunsui could be in line for something similar
09:38towards the end of the season, but that would also depend of course on whether Sunderland
09:42are fighting for automatic promotion or whether they are still in the mix with the playoffs.
09:48It is a big risk to bring a young player in like that. I can't see him starting anytime soon
09:52for obvious reasons unless there's a worsening of Sunderland's injury crisis, but he's certainly
09:57one to watch and a quite brilliant player obviously. He actually signed a new contract
10:02fairly recently, I think it might have been last summer. So yeah, let's move on to the next question.
10:08Tom says Mepham has been quite hit and miss the last few games, at fault in the last game when
10:13he gave the ball up as it was going out and the Blackburn attacker didn't and he crossed it.
10:19Today, a very poor attempt to attack a link that Stokes scored together with 0-9 who defended poorly.
10:23I mean, I have to agree. I think Chris Mepham has been obviously a really net positive for
10:30Sunderland. He's been a brilliant Rolls Royce of a defender. His positional awareness is fantastic,
10:35his leadership skills when you speak to him, he's very, very balanced. He's got that experience
10:39as I mentioned earlier of getting promoted. You know, he's a £12 million footballer,
10:43Bournemouth player paid £12 million for him, so he is a good footballer. I do think his form
10:48has slightly dipped, as has Sunderland's in the past couple of games. He didn't look as assured
10:54as he usually does against Blackburn rovers, who in fairness are an extremely good side.
10:59And so coming into the Stoke City game, I was of the opinion that Mepham and 0-9 were
11:06Sunderland's best centre-back pairing really. But I just think with the disruptions that have
11:11happened over the past couple of weeks, obviously he had Ballard in and out before his injury,
11:16didn't he? He had 0-9 playing at full-back with injuries and suspensions. I just feel like
11:23Sunderland have lost a little bit of continuity in that area. And I think for Stoke City's goal,
11:27it was poor, wasn't it? Let's not beat around the bush. Let's call a spade a spade,
11:31as we did with Elisa Mayenda. He has to be scoring that. I think 0-9 has to be doing better there,
11:37and I think because he's obviously dispossessed and then fails to win the ball back. And I think
11:41Tom Cannon's got a lot of time. I don't think Chris Mepham's strong enough in that moment,
11:46but good players will make mistakes. It's about how they bounce back. I actually spoke to Chris
11:50Mepham after the game, and those quotes will sort of be on the Sun and Letgo website in the next
11:54couple of days. But he was very reflective, very sanguine, but also very positive for the future
12:01and basically of the opinion that Sunderland have to put it right against Sheffield United.
12:07In terms of Mepham and 0-9, 0-9 in particular, he's made mistakes in the past, but he always
12:14manages to bounce back and turn in a good performance. It was a mistake in one moment,
12:19I thought, from 0-9 and Mepham. Mepham should have had a penalty awarded for him, and I thought
12:26him and 0-9 were fairly decent other than the mistake for the goal, but obviously the mistake
12:32for the goal is what people talk about, and rightly so as well. So I would back them about
12:37Spark. As I say, I just think Sunderland have lost a little bit of continuity with their defence and
12:43the sort of players dropping in and out. I think that has harmed them, and perhaps a bit of fatigue
12:50as well physically and mentally. There's been a lot of games played over the past couple of weeks,
12:55but yeah, I don't think you can argue against Mepham being a very good signing for Sunderland
13:00still, and I think he will be a key player, as will 0-9. Both bring tremendous amounts of
13:05leadership. Let's move on to the next question. What have we got here?
13:13So, a question which sort of relates to Ross's earlier from Blue Sky. It says,
13:20will the club invest in promotion in January or accept play-offs at best? Again, I think this is
13:25a really interesting question, and thank you for that one. I think the club have to invest in
13:31January if they want to stay in the mix, to be brutally honest. Obviously, there's a lot of
13:36top two positions just looking a little bit beyond Sunderland, I think, at the moment in terms of
13:40their squad composition. I think Sunderland could still get back there, absolutely, but you would
13:44need injuries to come back, injured players to come back, and I think Sunderland would need
13:48to invest, again, in one or two low knees. I don't think Sunderland should go down the whole
13:54city route last season. I don't think they should go down the whole city route this season. I don't
13:58think they should go down the whole city route. I think they should go down the whole city route
14:03I don't think Sunderland should go down the whole city route last season in January,
14:06where they really did spend big, and I think that's hampered them since under Liam Rossini,
14:11obviously, they then got rid of him. I don't want to see Sunderland sort of go reckless and blow the
14:16whole budget, but I think there is room to manoeuvre there in January, and I think the club
14:22have to move on a couple of deals if they're there to be done. You know, this is a good Sunderland
14:26squad, and I always look back to the playoff season under Tony Mulberry. You know, during that
14:33season, you had Amad, you had Ross Stewart, you had Ellis Sims for a little bit as well. You know,
14:37Ross Stewart got injured, you had Jack Clark, you had Patrick Roberts, you had a really good centre
14:41back partnership of Danny Bath and Dan Ballard, you know, Un9 was kicking around in there as well,
14:46you had Trey Hulme and Dennis Sergen at various points, you had Patterson and Goh. It was a very,
14:52very strong first Sunderland XI. I'm probably forgetting a few players as well, and the wider
14:58squad was okay, but it wasn't robust enough to go and get promotion. You saw against Luton Town,
15:05and the playoffs didn't have a fit centre back, you know, at least he had to come on and then picked
15:09up an injury. Gellhart signed in January, he was signed to play off Ross Stewart, Ross Stewart got
15:15injured, you know, that was a tough one to take, but had Sunderland sort of gone for it a little
15:21bit more in that January, was there an opportunity to go for it? You know, Sunderland could have
15:25perhaps advanced to a playoff final, and then who knows what can happen. So, I think the trick is
15:29always to sort of try and strengthen when you are strong, and Sunderland are in a really good
15:33position at the moment. They're an attractive place to go. They also have players like Joe
15:37Bellingham, Chris Rigg, you know, Patrick Roberts is still there, Wilson Isidor is a good striker,
15:43Hulme and Sergen are playing at a decent level, although I thought both were a little bit under
15:47par. You've got O9 and Mepham, who are a great centre back partnership. Behind them, you have
15:51Alesi and Dan Ballard, you know, Dan Neal has played at a good level at number six now.
15:57Sometimes you have to take the chance when it's given to you, when you have these players at your
16:01disposal, because we don't know how long Chris Rigg and Joe Bellingham are going to be at Sunderland.
16:07I think that's just the harsh reality of the situation. We need to enjoy them while we've
16:12got them. There's going to be interest. I don't think we'll go anywhere in January, obviously,
16:16but the summer, all bets could be off, especially if Sunderland don't get promoted.
16:21And you could look at a scenario in two or three years' time, potentially with Sunderland still in
16:26the championship, and you look at that team and you think, how on earth did that not get promoted?
16:30All it needed was a little bit of this or a little bit of that. And that's sort of how I feel about
16:34that Marlborough team. How did that team not get promoted? Because it's very good. And the reason
16:38is, is because the squad wasn't robust enough. And looking back on that January pretty harshly,
16:43was enough done? Probably not. So that's sort of my view on that. And I think
16:52the club seem to have a sort of a little bit more belief in Le Brice. I don't think that's
16:59being harsh on Tony Mulgrew. I thought Tony Mulgrew was a fantastic manager for Sunderland,
17:03but there seems to be a little bit more alignment between the board and Le Brice. And I do think
17:08they'll back him should the right deals come around. And I do think now is the time to back
17:13Le Brice. I think they've got to really attack promotion. Sunderland have done exceptionally
17:17well to be in this position. And it would be such a shame with this group, with this squad of players,
17:22if they didn't kick on.