Sunderland's draw against Watford discussed with Cats five points from automatic spots
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunland Echo.
00:26My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Copley and Phil Smith.
00:29As always, we've got plenty to be getting through on this Monday morning.
00:33Not least, of course, another draw for Sunderland at the weekend.
00:362-2 against Watford at the Stadium of Light.
00:39Phil, a game in which Sunderland started really well,
00:43ended quite strongly, but the bit in the middle wasn't all that great.
00:49Yeah, I thought Watford were pretty good from the start, to be honest.
00:54I don't think it was like the Plymouth game, for example,
00:57where Sunderland were straight out the gate with 85-90% possession.
01:02Sunderland, to me, just never looked quite at it for pretty much
01:06until the last few minutes, to be honest, and I thought that was by and large
01:09because obviously Watford had been forced in Sissoko after he was cramping up.
01:13They brought another defender on.
01:14I think that invited a lot of pressure and let Sunderland get back into the game.
01:18I didn't really think Sunderland were at the races at all, to be honest.
01:21I mean, even if you think about the goal, it came from a Watford corner
01:24that Sunderland broke down the other end, won a free kick, deflected.
01:27Obviously, a really clever set-piece routine to take the lead.
01:30So, I thought there were kind of two aspects to it.
01:33I think Watford were quite good, probably better than we anticipated going into the game,
01:36given their recent form and all the noise that's been around that club.
01:40Kept the ball well, took the sting out of the game when they needed to,
01:43went direct when they needed to, made it really hard for Sunderland to press.
01:47And whether it was a bit of complacency, whether it was a bit of fatigue,
01:50whatever the reason might be, I just don't think we ever saw Sunderland play
01:53anywhere near the level of intensity that we're used to seeing from them.
01:57And they didn't keep the ball well enough.
01:59And obviously, when you're playing against a team who is happy to slow the game down
02:03and make it really difficult for you, you need to hold on to the ball.
02:05That's the only way you can play pressure.
02:06And I thought there was a sloppiness about Sunderland's performance
02:10that we're really not used to seeing this season.
02:12And I think that's why they were just never really able to build any pressure.
02:16James, I'll bring you in on this.
02:18I mean, what do you make of the performance?
02:19Because one thing that Regis Lebris sort of pointed to in the aftermath of the match
02:23was maybe the 1v1s, the lack of physicality, if you like,
02:27the way that Sunderland were dominating in certain areas of the pitch in that manner.
02:32I think Joe Bellingham was a big miss, obviously, his game in the middle of the park.
02:37Although he's got really, really good technical ability and quality,
02:40I think the aspect of his performances that have come on the most
02:44has actually been his physicality this season.
02:47The way he uses his body, the way he can hook around midfielders,
02:49the way he retains possession.
02:51You think he's lost it, but then suddenly he has it again
02:53and he recycles the ball extremely well.
02:55So I think that was a little bit of a miss.
02:57And I think it just goes to show how important midfields are, doesn't it?
03:00And midfield balance, because with Salis, Abdel, Samed in there,
03:03it wasn't quite right.
03:05And Watford did sort of dominate that for a while.
03:08And Watford did sort of dominate that physical battle in the middle of the park
03:12and elsewhere on the pitch as well.
03:13So a tough one to take, just a strange game, though,
03:17in a sense that Sunderland had those two chances to win it right at the end,
03:20which I'm sure will come to.
03:22But it very much feels like a two points drop,
03:26sorry, as did the Plymouth-Argyle game.
03:29You just feel like you have to win those games at home to be fighting for the automatics.
03:34That's now five points off the top two.
03:36Caveat that with there's a lot of football yet to be played,
03:39a lot of twists, a lot of turns, a lot of results elsewhere
03:42that could potentially go for Sunderland.
03:45So all is not lost, but it does feel a little flatter than it did,
03:48perhaps, a couple of weeks ago.
03:50But there's still a lot to be positive about this season,
03:53that Sunderland are unbeaten at home this season,
03:55unbeaten in 2025, apart from the FA Cup game against Stoke.
04:02So there are signs there that Sunderland are chugging along nicely,
04:07I mean, to be brutally honest, against Plymouth and Watford,
04:09you would have liked to have seen six points instead of two.
04:12That could be the difference.
04:13You don't know.
04:15But, yeah, big games coming up.
04:17Luton's an interesting game and so is Leeds as well the following Monday, of course.
04:23Yeah, obviously, all eyes now on that Leeds United match
04:25are going to be a huge challenge for Sunderland.
04:28Obviously, the nature of the goals that Sunderland conceded, Phil,
04:31and the timing of them as well felt particularly disappointing.
04:35The first one coming from that penalty after a really brilliant Anthony Patterson save,
04:39initially, it has to be said, I think.
04:41And then, obviously, to concede immediately after half-time,
04:45albeit to something of a wonder strike,
04:47it really seemed to take the wind out of Sunderland's sails.
04:51Yeah, I thought the second goal probably summed it up
04:53in that you have to give him, Ran, a lot of credit.
04:56It's an amazing strike.
04:58It's not just a good strike, is it?
04:59Like, I mean, how many times do you see a player score from that distance?
05:02It's incredibly rare.
05:03So, you give him a lot of credit.
05:05Obviously, the move starts with Sunderland losing possession,
05:08starting the second half really sloppily.
05:09So, I think that kind of summed up Watford.
05:12I think you have to give a lot of credit,
05:13but Sunderland, just an uncharacteristic sloppiness, I think.
05:16And we talked a little bit about that.
05:20That physical advantage Watford had,
05:22you know, the best way to sort of prevent getting that weakness exposed,
05:26if you like, is to keep the ball.
05:27And for me, that was what Sunderland never did anywhere near well enough
05:31throughout the game.
05:31Obviously, it's a little bit different later on,
05:34because you've got to take risks, haven't you,
05:35when you're chasing a game,
05:36when you're trying to make something happen.
05:38And probably you do have to take more risks
05:40and be a little braver in possession.
05:42But I just never really felt like they had any control of the game.
05:45I think like Watford, I think, you know,
05:47they have got some really good individuals.
05:49I think that's one thing to keep in mind.
05:51Obviously, it's not a club that seems to be heading in the right direction,
05:54but there's still that kind of smattering of quality there, if you like.
05:57I thought Chakhtar Tadze was really, really impressive.
06:00The way he dribbled forward, like, so much strength.
06:02I thought he looked like a bit of a modern Sunderland player, if you like.
06:05Like, we've seen a lot of Sunderland players in recent years
06:07who are really, really effective at dribbling,
06:09really hard to get the ball off.
06:11I thought that gave them an outlet.
06:12And I thought Doombea, the centre forward,
06:14when you consider he's 18, that was his first championship start.
06:16I think, like, credit where it's due, he was a real handful, wasn't he?
06:19I thought he gave 0-9 and met him a really difficult afternoon.
06:23I thought he held the ball up well.
06:24He caused problems.
06:26So I think from a Sunderland perspective,
06:28I think the frustration is that for the second...
06:30I thought this was a bit different to the Plymouth game
06:32in that Plymouth, really, in the first half,
06:34were just sort of defending and kicking it,
06:36kicking rush, basically.
06:38Second half, they were better, to be fair.
06:39But I thought Watford had a lot more about them in this game.
06:41But I think the common denominator
06:43is that Sunderland have just been nowhere near
06:45the sort of intensity that we saw from them
06:47early in the season at home.
06:49And I think that's the really interesting question moving forward,
06:51is that something the breeze needs to change?
06:54Is it the fact that teams are now a lot wiser
06:57to what Sunderland can do at home,
06:58so they're playing differently?
07:00If you think back to the Sheffield Wednesday game,
07:02where Sunderland basically just kept catching Sheffield Wednesday,
07:05playing out from the back.
07:06The press was so good.
07:07Are teams now changing their approach?
07:09We've seen it from Plymouth and Watford.
07:11They don't invite the press.
07:12If they're getting in any trouble,
07:13they just launch it, basically.
07:16So I think that's the really interesting thing.
07:18Is it just a little bit of a dip at home because of fatigue?
07:20Is it some freshness?
07:21Or is it something where teams...
07:23We're seeing teams be a bit more pragmatic
07:24when they come into the stadium alive,
07:26and that then will put the onus on Sunderland
07:28to come up with something a little bit different.
07:29I think that's the interesting question for me.
07:32I can't quite work out whether we've just seen Sunderland...
07:34Well, they have dipped below their best.
07:35We know that.
07:36But is it also something, a little bit of a challenge
07:38that they're going to have to adapt to in the next few weeks?
07:40Because the automatic promotion race isn't over.
07:43I still think there'll be twists and turns.
07:45I think Sheffield United and Burnley especially
07:47will drop points at some stage.
07:49But if Sunderland don't keep drawing their home games,
07:52they're going to be too far out for that to matter.
07:54I think it's going to be really interesting.
07:56Wednesday night is going to be the first test of that.
07:58And we're moving forward,
07:59seeing whether La Brice has to freshen things up a little bit
08:02or change the kind of approach from the start of the season.
08:07I mean, Phil's talking about intensity there, James.
08:09We were talking a little bit before we came on
08:11about Salih Abdul-Samad.
08:13Obviously, a player who came in with a huge amount of hype,
08:16a player who's played Champions League-level football before.
08:18But on Saturday, at least,
08:20certainly a player who looks as if he hasn't played
08:23a lot of football over the past few months.
08:26I think so, yeah.
08:26And I think that is the big caveat
08:28when it comes to Salih Abdul-Samad,
08:30is that he's been out for such a long time.
08:32You know, when he started the Stoke game in the FA Cup,
08:35he didn't look...
08:36Sorry, he didn't start it.
08:37He came on in the FA Cup.
08:38He didn't look, you know, sort of quite right, really.
08:41That was a much-changed side.
08:42Although when he came on against Middlesbrough,
08:44he's one of the contributing factors
08:46towards Sunderland actually winning that game.
08:49He started against Watford
08:52and, as I mentioned at the top of the show,
08:55the balance of that midfield
08:56just didn't seem quite right to me.
08:58And that can be down to a myriad of factors
09:00that haven't played together too much.
09:01You know, Dan Neal is going from a 6-8 position.
09:05So, there's a lot of play.
09:06I wouldn't bet against him coming good
09:08at some point in the season,
09:09but he does just genuinely look like a footballer
09:13who hasn't played a lot of football.
09:15As you mentioned, Jase, the intensity, the urgency.
09:20I think there was a couple of grumbles from the stand
09:22because he just wasn't getting the ball forward quick enough,
09:24maybe having just one or two extra touches.
09:27But he's probably unsure, really,
09:29in a sense of where his teammates are going to be
09:32and what runs they're going to make
09:33because he just simply hasn't played with them enough.
09:36And he hasn't really trained with them enough either,
09:37if you consider he's only really been back
09:40for, what, three or four weeks back with his teammates.
09:44He's obviously had a lot of time to study,
09:45but in terms of time on the grass,
09:47he hasn't had a lot.
09:48I think it's interesting that, you know,
09:50when Mundell and Tommy Watson do eventually come back,
09:54will Le Fay come into the middle?
09:56You know, Chris Rigg, to me,
09:57looks like he could use a little bit of a rest.
10:00I think we've been, rightfully,
10:04on the Chris Rigg hyper train for a long time,
10:06but you do have to call a spade a spade as well
10:07and say that he was pretty poor against Watford.
10:11I would back him to absolutely bounce back from that,
10:13but by his lofty standards that he's set at,
10:16I thought he was slightly under par.
10:18Yeah, that midfield is a real interesting question
10:22for me going forward.
10:23Obviously, there's a lot of talk about 4-3-3 versus 4-4-2.
10:27I think, for me, it would have been hard to justify
10:30starting 4-4-2 against Watford.
10:31Yes, it might have pushed them back.
10:33It might have given Sunderland a little bit more cutting edge
10:36and a little bit more up front,
10:37but in a game where Sunderland struggled for control
10:40and struggled for physicality,
10:43to not have another midfielder in there
10:44could have been potentially catastrophic, I think.
10:48I don't envy Regis Lepre because there's a lot to think about
10:51heading into the Luton game,
10:53and we know that although they are lowly in the table
10:57at the moment, Luton Town are a very, very physical team as well,
10:59so it's interesting, to say the least.
11:04It's interesting that James mentions, obviously,
11:06Lefebvre moving into that central role,
11:09which is obviously the position that I think
11:11most Sunderland fans would expect him to play in
11:14once everybody is sort of fit
11:15and firing for Lebretts' side, Phil,
11:17but we saw him sort of venture in for the first time on Saturday,
11:22Lebretts sort of bringing Milano-Lexington on,
11:24but opting to put him out on the left.
11:26I mean, how much of a difference do you think it will make
11:29to Sunderland when they are able to bring Lefebvre inside
11:31and when they are able to call on a Romain Mundell
11:33or a Tommy Watson,
11:34who are both obviously coming back towards full fitness?
11:38I think it's more, I think the bigger impact, to be honest,
11:41will be felt from having a proper winger out on the left.
11:45I thought, to be fair, again,
11:47Alexis has really got something, hasn't he?
11:49I know, obviously, it's the second time
11:52he's missed a big one-on-one,
11:53obviously the Millwall game,
11:54where Millwall went up and scored,
11:55and that kind of becomes the main thing you take away from it,
11:58but he's so quick.
11:59It's not something I really realised
12:01until I was starting to see him play.
12:02I think he's got something,
12:04but you can see in that moment where he goes through on goal,
12:06obviously the burst of pace is really impressive,
12:08but it's not his position,
12:10and I think that having Mundell and Watson back,
12:12I think will make an absolutely huge difference to this team,
12:15and obviously one of the knock-on effects of that
12:17would be that Lefebvre can come into the middle.
12:19I thought Lefebvre,
12:20like pretty much everyone in the second half,
12:22I thought he was trying a little bit too much.
12:23I think sometimes you're almost just screaming
12:26for somebody to get a foot on the ball for a minute
12:28and just kind of get up and pitch
12:29and build a bit of pressure that way,
12:31but we saw in the middle of the game
12:32just how good he is
12:33and that he's going to create chances,
12:35pretty much it will, really.
12:37So I think it's a very exciting thought
12:38to have him come into the middle,
12:40and I think that the bigger thing
12:42will be having Mundell and Watson back
12:43because I think sometimes
12:45we all know how someone wants to set up
12:46and so much of it is about getting the ball
12:48out wide to the wingers early,
12:49where they can either go on the outside or the inside,
12:51and I think at the moment you're seeing that
12:54Sunderland aren't quite where they were
12:55at the start of the season in those positions,
12:57and I think on the Sam Ed thing,
12:59I think you could see that Sunderland
13:00try to learn their lessons from the Watford game a bit.
13:02I thought it seemed to me fairly clear
13:06that Rigg had been pushed much, much higher,
13:08almost as a number 10,
13:09so it almost felt like they were trying to play
13:11a bit more of a 4-2-3-1
13:12rather than having someone just,
13:14like Sam Ed was against Plymouth,
13:15just stood in front of the back four,
13:17but it didn't quite work,
13:18and as James said,
13:19obviously you see with Sam Ed
13:21the impact of maybe not having played enough football.
13:24Maybe it's a combination of,
13:25well, some players haven't played enough football,
13:26maybe some players have played
13:27a little bit too much at the moment.
13:29For me, I think Rigg isn't quite at the level
13:31he was earlier in the season.
13:32I think that's natural.
13:33We have seen that so many times
13:35with young players in their first full season
13:37that I don't think it's a controversial thing to say.
13:40Roberts as well, I think,
13:41isn't quite as sharp as he was
13:43in the opening two months of the season,
13:44in my opinion.
13:45So, yeah, I think there's a few bits and bobs
13:48for Lebrister Pond to really move it forward.
13:52I think Mundell and Watson coming back
13:53is going to make an absolutely huge difference,
13:55I think, just to the balance of the side.
14:00Phil's talking about options out wide there, James.
14:03Obviously, we saw Ian Pavetta come on for Paddy Roberts.
14:06Just interested to get your thoughts on his appearance,
14:09because it felt like he sort of divided people.
14:11Some people saying he looked very busy,
14:12looked very positive.
14:13Other people perhaps suggesting
14:14that he could have been a little bit more decisive
14:16in his decision-making in the final third.
14:19He certainly saw a lot of the ball, didn't he?
14:21I was a little bit underwhelmed, to be honest.
14:24I thought there was some promising
14:27and good touches there,
14:28but without really creating anything.
14:30He didn't look to get down the line.
14:32I didn't think he looked to cut in quite often.
14:35I think Sullivan were 2-1 down at the time,
14:37and he was partial to the odd step over,
14:39which I'm never really that bothered about,
14:42especially when it doesn't come off.
14:44I think having him to challenge Roberts
14:46is a really positive aspect,
14:49but it's, again, tricky for him
14:51because he's been out for so long.
14:53He's played such little football.
14:55He was out for so long,
14:56then he came back and had a reoccurrence of an injury.
14:59So, he's been in-outs.
15:00It's been very difficult to get momentum.
15:02Lebris always talks about momentum
15:04and being connected with Sunderland's game plan,
15:07and it didn't feel like Pervade was quite there yet,
15:10but I think it's hugely positive
15:11that he's on the pitch and contributing for Sunderland.
15:13I just didn't think that he was overly impressive
15:18against Watford.
15:18I think he could well be at some point.
15:21I've watched him for the under-20 runs,
15:22and he's clearly got some quality.
15:24He scored in that European game
15:26at the Stadium of Light against Benfica.
15:28Really impressive goal.
15:29There's definitely something there,
15:30but it's just about channelling it,
15:32getting them in the right structure.
15:35It's always hard for players to come on and affect games,
15:37I find, especially when they don't have
15:40like five, 10, 15 starts in a row under their belt.
15:44It's been so stop-start for him
15:45that I'm sort of loathe to criticise him too heavily,
15:48but I didn't think he was sort of in tune
15:52with what the game really needed when he came on.
15:57But, I mean, I'd be a hypocrite
15:59because it's probably a substitution
16:00I would have made actually during the game.
16:01So, I won't sort of criticise Labrice for it
16:03because I did think Roberts was perhaps tiring.
16:06He's played a lot of football, obviously,
16:08and I didn't think it was his most effective game.
16:10So, it's a substitution I would have made.
16:12It didn't sort of pay off.
16:14But, yeah, I am keen to see if he can get a run of games
16:19or any sort of momentum going
16:21towards the back end of the season,
16:22what there's 15, 14 games left, whatever it is.
16:25But absolutely good to have him as an option, I think.
16:29And then, obviously, Phil, the other option is
16:31Eliza Mijender came on for Chris Rigg on Saturday,
16:34obviously not in a wide berth,
16:35but certainly in a sort of influential attacking role.
16:39I mean, is it any real coincidence
16:41that Sunderland started to look a little bit more dangerous
16:44on the front foot when he was on the pitch?
16:47Yeah, I think it was a combination of things.
16:48I think it was definitely Mijender's presence.
16:50I think both him and Isidore are better
16:52when the other one's on the pitch with them.
16:54I think we've got enough evidence for that to be like,
16:56you know, this is something that we can say
16:58is definitely the case.
16:59I think it was obviously, I mentioned at the very top there,
17:01I thought it was a combination of things.
17:03I thought Watford, and we discovered after,
17:05it was because of injuries and Cramp had to change
17:07their shape and stuff.
17:08And I thought that really, really disrupted them.
17:10So I thought it was a combination of things.
17:12I think the Mijender one's really, really difficult
17:14because I think it's easy to say that, you know,
17:16if Sunderland had started 4-4-2 on Saturday,
17:18they might have won.
17:18If they'd started 4-4-2 against Plymouth,
17:20they might have won.
17:21And I think that's absolutely true, by the way.
17:23I think maybe that extra sort of striker,
17:26that front foot approach might have won the game.
17:29You could also say that actually something,
17:31we potentially got away with one against Portsmouth
17:34when they played 4-4-2 and scored early
17:36because of those two strikers,
17:37but then didn't play anywhere near as well
17:39as we've seen them afterwards.
17:41I thought at Derby,
17:42I thought they nearly dropped points in that game again.
17:45Like I think you could say,
17:46if they didn't have anywhere near the level of control
17:47you would have liked over that game
17:49and it nearly cost them the second half.
17:51So I don't see switching to 4-4-2
17:53as like an automatic cure
17:54for all of Sunderland's problems.
17:56I think it gives them something extra in meander,
17:58but I think it also takes something away.
18:01So I think that's a really tricky one.
18:02I don't think there's a simple answer to that.
18:04I do kind of lean towards, for me,
18:07like I'd be trying to get meander into the team
18:09on Wednesday night, personally,
18:11whether that's off the right
18:12or whether it's by going with two up top,
18:14because I just think at the moment,
18:15we mentioned that before,
18:17I think just now it looks to me
18:20like there's a few players,
18:20especially on that right-hand side,
18:22who look like they've maybe played
18:23a little bit of football,
18:24who might benefit from just being
18:25an impact sub for a game or two.
18:27I think it's really hard to ignore a player
18:29who's in really good form,
18:30who looks really, really fresh,
18:31really, really sharp.
18:32I just think, especially for a midweek game,
18:34he could bring a bit of a burst of energy, really.
18:36I suspect that Labriez probably doesn't want
18:39the start pervaded yet,
18:40because obviously, as James has just alluded to there,
18:43he's had two fairly brief cameos
18:44and he's been out for months and months.
18:46So I wonder if maybe,
18:47whether it's going to 4-4-2
18:48or whether it's bringing Miander in off the right,
18:50I think that might be the way to go on Wednesday,
18:52just because I think it's,
18:53as I say, I think it's hard to ignore at the moment
18:55when you look like you're a little bit fatigued
18:57in some areas of the pitch.
18:58I think it's hard to ignore someone
19:00who is so obviously so sharp,
19:02full of confidence
19:03and he does make things happen.
19:04Like again, you know,
19:05that chance he lays on for Isidore,
19:07like he just has that knack.
19:08I think he's much better when he plays with Isidore.
19:11It's a really tricky conundrum for Labriez.
19:13I kind of don't envy him
19:15having to try and work that one out.
19:16But for me, I think you have to try
19:18and get Miander in the team.
19:20It's a really interesting point that as well,
19:21because in terms of goals and assists per minutes,
19:25Miander is top.
19:27I think he's got nine goal contributions in 15 starts,
19:29which would make him Sunderland's
19:31most effective attacking player.
19:33Obviously, Wilson Isidore's got 11-10 goals,
19:35one assist,
19:36but he's played a lot more football than Miander.
19:38So it's one of those,
19:40as Phil mentions,
19:41you do lose something in the middle,
19:44I think, when you play Miander,
19:45but you also gain something.
19:46And he does, as well as gaining Miander,
19:50you do seem to unlock Isidore a little bit more as well,
19:53which is also a consideration that I think,
19:56although Isidore's a good player, obviously,
19:58and can play up front by himself,
20:00I do think him and Miander up front together
20:03is potentially electric at times,
20:06but you do sacrifice in the middle.
20:07So it is a conundrum.
20:11I mean, you mentioned options in the middle there as well.
20:13He wasn't in the squad on Saturday, Phil,
20:15but Alan Brown's to come back as well.
20:17I mean, do we know how bad Job's injury is?
20:20Is he expected to be back in midweek?
20:22Are there signs that Sunderland will have
20:24more reinforcements in the centre of the pot
20:25and more options to choose from against Liverpool?
20:28Yeah, certainly, as of Saturday,
20:30Sunderland were expecting Job to be back on Wednesday night.
20:32I think the sort of implication seemed to be
20:35that they could probably have taken a risk on him
20:38for that game,
20:38but they just didn't want to potentially aggravate
20:40or make it anything worse.
20:41So it made sense just to give him a breather
20:43and not take any risks.
20:44So I would expect him to come back into the side
20:46on Wednesday straight away,
20:47which I think will be a big boost.
20:50Brown, I think, obviously,
20:51he was back in full training last week.
20:53He hasn't played for a while,
20:54so that's obviously a big factor.
20:55I don't think he's going to be a contender
20:57at a start game straight away,
20:58but he should be back in the squad pretty much,
21:00if not Wednesday, certainly the league's game.
21:02So I think that's good.
21:04I think, again, that bit of extra now
21:06is another option for the breeze later in games.
21:08He should be fresh, obviously,
21:10after having so long on the sidelines.
21:12I definitely think,
21:14I think at the moment,
21:15you can see La Bresa's decision-making.
21:16We talked about Paveda coming on Saturday.
21:18He is trying to get to a point
21:20where at the real crunch end of the season,
21:22he has a full squad of players
21:24pretty much at peak fitness.
21:26To me, it's very, very, very similar
21:28to what Alex Neil was trying to do this season,
21:30something better from League One,
21:31where he was trying to get a breather
21:33for players who'd played way too much football
21:35in the first two thirds of the season
21:37while getting players who hadn't played
21:39anywhere near enough.
21:40Clark, Roberts, up to speed.
21:44Now, obviously, for Neil,
21:45it came together perfectly.
21:46And if you think back to the playoff run,
21:49he had the squad pretty much in peak condition.
21:51That's clearly what La Bresa's trying to get to.
21:53He's trying to get having a squad
21:54not of 13, 14 players,
21:56trying to get 17, 18 players
21:58in the right sort of place
21:59for the crunch phase of the season.
22:01The challenge is that unlike Alex Neil,
22:03where we knew weeks out, months out,
22:06really, that the top two was gone,
22:07that's obviously not the case for some of them,
22:08is it? They're still right in that race.
22:10So La Bresa's trying to get that balance
22:11between expanding the pool of players
22:14and getting everybody in the right place
22:16whenever it counts,
22:17while trying to make sure that
22:18some of them obviously stay in that race.
22:19And I think the Sam Edwards one's
22:21kind of a great example,
22:22and Pavetta as well,
22:23in terms of trying to get that balance.
22:25It is tricky,
22:26but you can see what the end game is.
22:28He's trying to get these players ready
22:29to be decisive in the final weeks of the season,
22:32or potentially if it does come to a playoff campaign.
22:38I mean, just on that as well, James,
22:40we haven't spoken since the Jadon Dan's
22:44injury came to light.
22:45Obviously, something was discovered in his medical.
22:47He's gone back to Liverpool
22:48for a period of rehabilitation,
22:50but the hope there being that
22:51he will be another one of those players
22:53who has the potential to come in
22:55over the last however many games it might be,
22:57and potentially a playoff run,
22:59and really make an impact for La Bresa's side,
23:01another good attacking option
23:03for him to call upon.
23:06Yeah, definitely.
23:06I think obviously it's a little bit disappointing
23:08that he has signed injured,
23:10but it seems like a bit of a freak incident really,
23:13doesn't it?
23:13Sunderland weren't aware,
23:14the player weren't aware,
23:15and Liverpool weren't aware.
23:16So you face the challenge,
23:18do we sign this lad in the hope
23:19that he'll be fit in two or three weeks' time?
23:21Time was running out in the window,
23:22so I do think you had to get the signing done.
23:26He is exciting.
23:27Again, I'd probably urge caution,
23:30as I said the last time we spoke about them.
23:31Is he going to have enough time to get up to speed,
23:34develop himself as an option?
23:35He is so young.
23:37Can he contribute in the championship immediately
23:39in such a short space of time?
23:41I have my reservations about that.
23:43I was actually interested,
23:44I was listening to the Wise Men Say podcast,
23:46and they had somebody from the Liverpool end,
23:48I think it was the Anfield rap on,
23:50and they said he just always pops up
23:52with big goals and big games,
23:54and my mind automatically went
23:56towards a playoff campaign,
23:57or a crucial goal in an automatic promotion push.
24:01So I think it's good to have that sort of talent
24:03and mentality around the squad.
24:05And hopefully he's fit sooner rather than later,
24:08so Sunderland can develop that attack and threat.
24:11But I do agree with what Phil said
24:14in terms of Labrice trying to develop his squad
24:16in terms of full fitness,
24:18and it's good to see players like Milano Lecic
24:21getting some minutes now.
24:23I know he missed that chance,
24:24but he does look like he has something,
24:26and there are options starting to develop
24:28across the forward line and in midfield as well,
24:32which I think bodes well for the run-in, hopefully.
24:36Very much so, very much so.
24:39Let's move away from the men's team for a moment, Phil.
24:42Obviously, disappointment for Regis Labrice's side
24:45at the weekend,
24:45but a really good result for Mel Rea's women's team.
24:49They're through to the quarterfinals of the FA Cup now,
24:51the only non-WSL team left in that competition.
24:55I mean, it's a wonderful achievement, isn't it?
24:58Yeah, it is. It's a massive achievement.
25:00It has massive implications for the club, to be honest.
25:03I think in prize money, they've already banked,
25:05I think it's about £165,000.
25:08There's a further £22,500 guaranteed
25:11just for taking part in the quarterfinal.
25:14Obviously, you know, the quarterfinal,
25:15if you can get a good home draw,
25:16there's also the potential maybe of some TV coverage.
25:19So, we're potentially looking at a cup run,
25:21the cup bank that's taking the club,
25:23you know, in the region of £200,000,
25:25and that could be really significant
25:26going into the summer and moving forward
25:29in terms of the club's planning.
25:32It's massive.
25:33I think the cup run itself has been a bit of an odd one
25:36because the fixtures have been relatively kind
25:39in that they've played two teams in divisions below them
25:41and the team who was struggling in Portsmouth
25:43towards the bottom of the championship.
25:45At the same time, they've all been away
25:46and Exeter and Portsmouth
25:47are about the two biggest journeys you could have.
25:50So, it's been a really tricky run
25:51and a fairly kind run at the same time.
25:53Listen, I think it's a massive achievement
25:56to be the only non-WSL club in the competition,
26:00as you mentioned.
26:01I think everyone will be fairly realistic
26:02going into that quarterfinal draw.
26:04Obviously, if the draw takes place tomorrow at eight time,
26:06it's going to be really, really difficult.
26:08We've seen for the last three, four years
26:09that the gap between the Super League
26:11and the championship is absolutely massive.
26:12So, it's going to be a big test,
26:14but they did play Man Utd a couple of years ago
26:16in the FA Cup
26:16and gave them a really good game,
26:18lost fairly narrowly.
26:19So, I think it's really, as I say,
26:23financially really significant.
26:24I think it's a big reward for the players, really,
26:27who for two seasons now have been super consistent.
26:30Like, apart from they started this season quite slowly,
26:34lost the first two league games.
26:36The reality of a 21-game season
26:38is that, unfortunately, that can really cost you.
26:42But they've been super consistent
26:44for a long period of time.
26:45And I think, you know, credit the players,
26:47but also to Mel Rae,
26:48because she does lead the recruitment
26:50on the women's side of things.
26:52And the combination she's had
26:53over the last couple of years
26:54of really brilliant recruitment,
26:55but also sort of coupling that
26:57with academy players has been fantastic.
27:00So, hopefully, you know,
27:02everything crossed for a home draw
27:03against the big WSL side,
27:05because I think it will be the perfect opportunity
27:07to kind of showcase what's been built
27:09over the last 18 months, two years,
27:12because it's a good team,
27:14but it also plays good football.
27:16I think anyone who watches the women's team
27:17will tell you that the development in the sides,
27:20tactically, since they've pretty much,
27:22and technically, since they pretty much
27:23went full-time at the start of last season,
27:25has been massive.
27:26So, hopefully, they can get a home draw
27:28and they can really sort of show people
27:30who might not yet have seen too much
27:32of what they're all about.
27:34I genuinely think Mel Rae is probably
27:35one of the best-kept secrets in women's football.
27:38I think she's absolutely phenomenal.
27:39The work she's done over trying circumstances
27:42at Sunderland, at times,
27:43over the past five, six, seven years,
27:45however long it's been,
27:46I think has been marvellous.
27:47Phil mentioned the recruitment,
27:48but also bringing academy players through
27:50whilst playing good football.
27:52It's been really, really impressive.
27:54I always worry about Sunderland women
27:56over a summer because they always seem
27:58to lose a couple of plays
27:59and you always fear that this could be
28:01the season where they really, really struggle,
28:03and Mel Rae always comes up with the goods.
28:05I think the sort of holistic influence
28:08she has over the women's side of things
28:10is, it can't be understated.
28:11I think she's a vital cog in that football club.
28:14I think she doesn't get enough credit.
28:17Absolutely, absolutely.
28:19James, just wanted to sort of bring you in
28:21on the under-21s as well.
28:23I know you watched Gray-Murray's side
28:24on Friday afternoon
28:26and they got a hell of a result against Wolves.
28:28Obviously, second time they played them in,
28:29literally a matter of days,
28:31but a much improved performance
28:33or at least a very much improved scoreline
28:35when they played them the second time
28:36at the academy alike.
28:38Yeah, it was a good game.
28:39Sunderland dominated 1-5-0
28:41with five different goal scorers.
28:43I think the headlines from the game
28:45would be that Jenson Sealt
28:46played his first 90 minutes
28:47since his cruciate ligament injury.
28:51He looked really good, really strong,
28:52really powerful.
28:54Ahmed Abdullahi, he got his first goal
28:58in red and white.
28:58He played 45 minutes.
29:00He was then replaced by Finn Geraguzian,
29:03who is in tremendous form.
29:05He's 17 years old,
29:06playing for the under-21s.
29:08I think it was four goals in three games,
29:12so he played against Wolves twice
29:15and then he played against Leeds
29:17and managed four goals across those games
29:19and an assist, I think, as well.
29:21So he feels like the next cab off the rank.
29:23He's 6'4", massively, massively talented,
29:26can run for days,
29:27and he just seems to have emerged
29:29out of nowhere.
29:30I watched him in the FA Youth Cup last season
29:32and thought he looked okay,
29:33but his physicality has come on another level.
29:36And yeah, that production line
29:39seems to keep on keeping on.
29:41It's wildly impressive,
29:43but under-21s are always a great watch.
29:46I find I was gutted to see
29:47that they'd missed out on the next round
29:49of the Premier League International Cup.
29:51They were waiting on a result
29:53between Blackburn Rovers and Atletic Bilbao.
29:55Atletic Bilbao, I think,
29:56got a 90-second-minute winner,
29:59which meant that Sunderland missed out,
30:00which was unfortunate.
30:02But Sunderland are hoping to qualify
30:04for that competition again
30:05and get into the playoffs,
30:06which they're currently on track to do.
30:09The listeners might remember
30:10that they got to the playoff final last season,
30:12so the Premier League too works
30:13where you have a regular league season
30:15and then everybody goes into a playoff
30:17to see who the overall winner is.
30:19Yeah, and it's just on a wider point,
30:22it's been quite nice to watch the under-21s
30:24over the years.
30:25We all remember that period
30:26under Donald and Methven
30:27where they couldn't win a game.
30:29The academy was extremely depleted.
30:31There were players leaving left, right and centre,
30:34but now it's vibrant.
30:35It's full of stories.
30:36They win more games than they lose.
30:39And the players that are developing
30:41from that academy are hugely impressive.
30:43And we've seen the likes of Tommy Watson,
30:46Chris Raig, Anthony Patterson,
30:47Dan Neill and others come through.
30:49Ben Middlemass was on the bench
30:51against Watford again,
30:52which was nice to see.
30:53So yeah, very, very vibrant
30:55and very exciting up at the academy.
30:57I'd encourage any Sunderland fans
30:58who have an afternoon spare
30:59and there's a game up at Hetham
31:02to go and have a look,
31:02because it's good.
31:12Certainly is, certainly is.
31:13I think the next in action on Tuesday night,
31:15Huddersfield Town, is that right, James?
31:17That's right, yeah.
31:17Premier League 2 Cup.
31:22Lovely stuff, lovely stuff.
31:24I think we'll both be there
31:25and I would highly encourage
31:26those at Alusen to get themselves along as well.
31:28That's all we've got time for
31:29in this week's show.
31:30Join us again next week
31:31when we'll be discussing
31:32all of the latest Sunderland news and developments.
31:34In the meantime,
31:34follow all the latest Black Cats news
31:36on the Sunderland Echo
31:37and give us a follow on social media as well.
31:39Thanks to James.
31:40Thanks to Phil.
31:41Thanks to you for listening
31:42and we'll catch you next week.
31:45Bye.