Reaction to Leeds United loss with Sunderland now eight points off top-two spots...
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00:00Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunland Echo.
00:24My name is Jason Jones, joined by James Copley and Phil Smith.
00:29Got a feeling this isn't going to be the happiest of episodes, lads, after what we saw last
00:33night.
00:34Sunland obviously went to Ellen Road on Monday evening and lost late on against Leeds United.
00:40Two late goals, the second one coming deep into stoppage time.
00:44Pascal Struyck braced for the horse that on the face of it looks to have dealt Sunderland
00:50a fairly significant blow to their automatic promotion hopes.
00:55Obviously some positives to be taken, Phil.
00:57Sunland started brightly, took the lead against Leeds, but from that point onwards, it really
01:02felt like they were hanging on to try and get a result in Yorkshire.
01:05Yeah, I thought there was a big difference between the two halves and that in the first
01:10half, like, you know, the constant theme through the game was that Leeds kind of controlled
01:15possession and had the better territory.
01:17But in the first half, I thought Sunderland were really, really happy with where they
01:20were at in the game.
01:21They were keeping Leeds, you know, where they wanted them, basically.
01:25They weren't getting the ball, creating shooting opportunities inside Sunderland's box.
01:30When the wingers got the ball, they were doubled up on.
01:32They didn't really have space to do what they could do.
01:34And Sunderland had a threat.
01:35So I think the first half was just a really good away performance.
01:37I thought the second half, you could sense, you know, when you're in the ground that Sunderland
01:42didn't have the game where they wanted it.
01:43You know, Leeds still, to be fair, struggled to create, like, clear chances.
01:46I don't think Paterson did that much to do, but it was just kind of wave after wave of
01:51attack and Sunderland just kept coughing possession up.
01:53They just couldn't keep playing through the press, couldn't keep possession.
01:57And it did feel like a little bit of a matter of timing, you know, as I mentioned, you know,
02:00I just had a slightly confident victory when I said Leeds didn't have any chances.
02:03But it just felt like the wave of attacks was so regular that it was just going to be
02:07impossible for Sunderland to hold out.
02:10And that's how it was in the end, obviously, the sickness from a Sunderland perspective
02:13really wasn't necessarily a bit of magic.
02:16It was a set play on both occasions, you know, fair play to Daniel Farker, the decision to
02:20bring Joe Rothwell on.
02:22They'd wasted so many set pieces in the opening hour and he made the difference.
02:25So I think there were some positives to some advice you say, you know, it's impossible
02:29to kind of ignore the context of the table.
02:31And I don't feel, I felt more annoyed after the Watford and Plymouth games, to be honest.
02:35I know, obviously, it's absolutely horrible to lose a game like that in the last minute.
02:38But I think you have to respect how good Leeds are at home.
02:42Like their record there this season is exceptional.
02:44And, you know, for me, I think this was a lot about how good Leeds were.
02:50Whereas, you know, I think the Watford and Plymouth games, something was so below what
02:54we know they're capable of, especially at home.
02:57They felt like much worse results, at least just to me personally.
03:01James, I'll bring you in on this.
03:03I mean, what did you make of Sunderland's performance on Monday evening?
03:07Yeah, first off, I thought they competed well.
03:10As Phil mentions, I think Leeds probably still edged it despite Sunderland taking the lead
03:16in terms of possession and attacks.
03:19But Sunderland probably just sat a little bit too deep in the second half.
03:22They couldn't get the foot on the ball.
03:23The intensity of Leeds really ramped up.
03:27The crowd really got behind them.
03:28Daniel Farger made those substitutions.
03:31You know, substitutions are outcome-based, aren't they?
03:33And there was a lot of grumblings around the ground when Pascal Stroik came on.
03:37People didn't really understand it.
03:38And then he ends up scoring two goals from centre-back with one of the other substitutes
03:42getting both assists as well.
03:44So, substitutes are always outcome-based.
03:46But I look at Regis Lebris' substitutes bringing Sam Ed on and playing them at the
03:52Chris Rigg position.
03:53So, he was sort of that second striker out of possession.
03:57Didn't really work for me.
03:59Didn't really understand it at the time.
04:02So, a little bit unfortunate, really, to lose it.
04:07I think there was 10 seconds on the clock when that goal went in.
04:10So, it is a real sickener.
04:12You know, you're winning the game on 70 minutes.
04:15But Leeds United parachute payments.
04:18They've got this squad that's been building under Daniel Farger for two years.
04:21I think, personally, over the two sets of 90 minutes that I've seen them play Sunderland
04:27this year, they're the best team that Sunderland have played, without a shadow of a doubt.
04:31And I would include other Leeds games I've seen in the Championship.
04:33I think the build-up ahead of Steam.
04:35You know, Ellen Rhodes, a really, really tough place to go.
04:39So, yeah.
04:41Again, tough to take.
04:42But there's a couple of stats I would like to highlight, if possible.
04:48The first one being that Sunderland have dropped 13 points from the 80 minute onward mark this
04:55season.
04:56That's negated by the fact that Sunderland have won seven points from the 80th minute
05:01mark.
05:01So, that's a net of six points dropped.
05:03You could throw in another two points with the two pens against Burnley.
05:07And that would add to eight points that would see us second with Sheffield United joint
05:13on 70 points.
05:14So, it's interesting.
05:15Obviously, other teams drop points.
05:16But it just feels like this Sunderland team has dropped points at crucial times in games.
05:21It's not to say that they won't sort of do well in the playoffs.
05:23But you could put that down to a lot of things.
05:26A little bit of inexperience, a little bit of confidence, playing against clubs who've
05:31got parachute payments, who have more than one, you could argue that Sunderland still
05:36needs additions in certain areas.
05:39So, it's interesting.
05:41And Sunderland actually, for all Regis Lebris has done exceptionally well this season,
05:45have still got a head coach that's learning about England and the Championship.
05:48So, although it's gutting to lose and there's a couple of things to highlight, I think
05:54Sunderland are in a reasonable spot.
05:55And I think it's probably just confirmed what we sort of knew all along.
06:00I think Sunderland are a playoff team.
06:04And I say that with Sunderland probably being the third or fourth best team in the Championship
06:10as well, which is a huge compliment.
06:12I just think that top two automatic spots are just slightly beyond them, which is a
06:18shame.
06:18But I don't think it's the end of the world.
06:20I really don't.
06:23I mean, it's a conversation we've had a few times, isn't it, Phil?
06:26This season, as James has just sort of alluded to there.
06:28But this habit Sunderland have sort of developed for conceding late goals.
06:33I mean, how much does that concern you if we were to be heading into a playoff campaign,
06:39as it potentially looks as if Sunderland are?
06:40I mean, it's a long way to the top two now, but it's also a very long way from seventh
06:44that has to be said.
06:44And I think that sometimes we lose sight of that a little bit, don't we?
06:47They started so brightly.
06:48It's been such a positive season in so many respects that I think if you consider where
06:52the club finished last season and the sort of mood around the place, if somebody had
06:56said Sunderland are going to be pretty much nailed on for the playoffs with 13 games to
07:00go, I think they mostly would have bitten their hands off for it.
07:03But at the same time, like I say, there are these sort of lingering concerns about certain
07:06aspects of the British squad and the way that they go about shutting out games.
07:10I mean, how much of a problem do you think that is for Sunderland?
07:16I think it's interesting in the context of, as James mentioned there, when you put it
07:20against the amount of points they've won towards the end of the games, it's maybe not quite
07:24as severe as it first looks.
07:25I don't think it's any level of coincidence.
07:28I think there's two things I think about it.
07:30I think the first thing you've got to say is that from where Sunderland finished last
07:33season to be in a position where they're winning the vast majority of games going in the last
07:3715, 20 minutes is a pretty impressive place to be.
07:40As you mentioned there, Jason, and I think we should judge Sunderland against the top
07:44two races because that's where they are on the table.
07:46But there's no real given right to be so far ahead of West Brom and Middlesbrough on the
07:50table.
07:51It's a really, really impressive achievement.
07:53And it speaks to how consistent they are in their performances.
07:56I don't think the late goal thing is a fluke personally.
07:59I think, especially away from home, we felt it all season whereby in a lot of games the
08:04opposition manager has been making more substitutions earlier in the game.
08:08You know, Sunderland had double substitutions, sometimes triple substitution in 55, 60 minutes.
08:13Sunderland just haven't really done that.
08:15And I think fatigue has been a factor.
08:17I have some sympathy with LeBreeze because there have been times in the season where
08:20you've been looking at players who have a handful of championship appearances on the
08:24bench.
08:25And I think it's really, really hard to ask them to come in and replace players who we
08:28know are performing at a really high level.
08:31I think what's interesting is moving forward into kind of, you mentioned, you know, a potential
08:35playoff campaign.
08:36There's not really any reason for that excuse to be there in terms of, you know, last night
08:41Sunderland, I think it was the strongest bench we've put out all season.
08:44Now, obviously that was a little bit deceptive in the fact that Wunderland and Brown aren't
08:48fully match fit yet.
08:49So we're not counting them necessarily as players who are yet ready to be like massive
08:53impact subs.
08:54So I think that's why the late goals have happened to an extent, but there's no reason
08:59why it should continue towards the end of the season.
09:01So it'll be really interesting to see if something does kind of change as these players come
09:06back to fitness.
09:06So I think like, you know, if you look at last night as well, I think it's fair to say
09:11like the players who came on didn't have the impact that you'd want.
09:13I thought Pervade had made a bit of an impact.
09:15Mienda couldn't really get into the game at the moment.
09:18Like it's not really happening for Samed.
09:20Like I don't think that's an unfair comment.
09:22I just think at the moment he hasn't quite looked like the all-rounder feel that we hoped
09:26we would get.
09:27Maybe that'll come in time.
09:28So I do, there's absolutely no doubt about it.
09:31It's a concern, but I do think the main reason why it's happening is something that should
09:36in theory be fixed down the line.
09:38It'll be really interesting to see if that actually proves to be the case.
09:41I do find it really hard to judge Samed because he's been fit for around a month now and we
09:47haven't really seen what we thought we were getting, have we?
09:51Apart from maybe his middles were away when he came on and really affected the game, the
09:55other games he's played and I haven't been too impressed.
09:57I think there's loads of caveats to that though.
09:59Obviously he's not starting regularly.
10:00He hasn't built up a head of steam and he was out for a long, long time, but you would
10:04have thought with him being fit for about the past month, I would say that he would
10:11have improved a little gradually.
10:12And, you know, I accept that coming on against Leeds United, perhaps asked to do an unfamiliar
10:16role is a tough ask, but I just, I just can't get away from the feeling that we should be
10:22seeing a little bit more from him than we have.
10:26I think he arrived with so much hype, didn't he?
10:28You know, when you consider that he's a player who was playing Champions League football
10:31not that long ago, you know, and given the fact that, you know, the relative success
10:39that other signings that Sunderland brought in under Le Bris who were from a sort of similar
10:43background, when you look at the impact that Wilson Isidor has had, obviously the first
10:47few games that he's coming as well, Enzo Lefere, you know, this idea that it's a market that
10:52Le Bris and therefore Sunderland now know relatively well.
10:56And the fact that they felt the need to go and get Sam sort of led you to believe that
10:59when he came into the side, he would have this, this bigger impact.
11:02But I do fully agree with you, James.
11:04I think that it's really hard for him to be able to build up that momentum when he's
11:09being brought into matches at the moment that he's being brought in, you know, and I think
11:13that it's tricky and it's a double-edged sword because at the same time, you don't
11:17necessarily want to disrupt some of the great work that some of the midfield have put together
11:22this season.
11:22And I think especially it was telling last night that Le Bris felt it was more worthwhile
11:28to keep Dan Neal in that deep line role rather than pushing him on into a slightly more advanced
11:32one, which is the one that you're so often told that he can play and we've seen him
11:36playing so effectively as well.
11:37So I think it's, yeah, it's an interesting moment, Simon.
11:40I think time will tell, but I think that right now, I fully agree with you.
11:44I think it's just not quite working out for him.
11:47Obviously, one man who continues to impress on a weekly basis, I've just mentioned there
11:51is Wilson Isidor.
11:53Another goal for him last night, James, and a really well-taken finish as well.
11:59A lot was exceptional.
12:00It's pretty much the only sort of thing he had the opportunity to do in the game as well.
12:05Excuse me, but I thought the couple of touches to get round the defender and then the finishing
12:10off the post, it was breathtaking.
12:13And Sunderland haven't had a forward like that for a very long time, few and far between
12:17really.
12:17Ross Stewart aside, I would say that type of profile, we discussed it on the pod last
12:21week, didn't we?
12:21He can turn something out of nothing, which is a fantastic quality to have.
12:27It doesn't seem to score easy goals or boring goals, always seems to sort of pass the eye
12:32test.
12:33I think it's an underrated piece of Sunderland's January transfer business that they've managed
12:38to get him tied down.
12:40Already, just looking at social media, fans of other clubs were saying, how's he only
12:45cost three mil, where have we got him from?
12:47What would he be worth now?
12:49You're looking at double that, maybe treble that if he gets another three or four goals
12:53and another couple of assists, fires Sunderland into a playoff campaign and scores a high
12:58profile goal in a semi-final or at Wembley.
13:01You're looking at a very, very good purchase.
13:04So credit to the recruitment team for that one.
13:06He is an excellent player.
13:09I think, actually, proof as well how well you can do if you really buy into Sunderland
13:15and you really sort of take on the culture, you really try to understand the fans.
13:20He just clearly loves it, doesn't he?
13:23He was gutted at the end.
13:24I think it really, really does hurt him when Sunderland lose.
13:28But yeah, fantastic player, really enjoyed watching him.
13:31One of the success stories of the season for me.
13:33I think he's been a joy.
13:36And just a word on Dan Ballard as well, Phil.
13:39He's come back into the side in recent games.
13:42Chris Mepham dropped him down to the bench.
13:45And I know, obviously, you were very impressed with him last night, gave him a pretty high
13:48score in your ratings.
13:49But I mean, he's looking a lot more like the Dan Ballard who was so heralded last season.
13:57Yeah, you're absolutely right.
13:58He looks like the Dan Ballard of last season, rather than the player who clearly was short
14:02of rhythm.
14:04I mean, we see it time and time again, when players don't have a full pre-season, they
14:07struggle.
14:08And we can put Sam Ed very much into that category as well.
14:11And we're seeing that now with his performances.
14:13And I think maybe that not being rushed back into the side when he came back after that
14:18injury over Christmas looks to have really benefited him.
14:20He looks to have had a bit of time to get fully up to speed.
14:23And I thought he was one of the best players on the pitch last night.
14:26And I thought he was really unlucky to be on the losing side.
14:30He's defending the box.
14:32We all know he's excellent.
14:33But I thought he used the ball quite well last night.
14:35I think you can see that, generally speaking, opposition teams are quite happy to let him
14:39have the ball.
14:39It tends to be that they'll press on nine and they'll sit off Ballard.
14:44And I thought he did really well last night, obviously, with his pass.
14:46I know that kind of really is, to a large extent, all about what Isidore does.
14:51But Ballard does really well to sort of drive out and clip that pass over the top.
14:54So I think there's really good signs.
14:56It's a really interesting one going forward because it's hard, in some ways, to justify
15:01having a player of Chris Metham's class on the bench.
15:05I totally understand Lebris' decision to freshen it up and rest him.
15:07And it's been vindicated because Ballard's been very good in the last two games.
15:10But it's really interesting to see how that one sort of shakes out moving forward.
15:15Because, you know, I think for most of the season, Metham would have been one of the
15:18first names on the team sheet.
15:19But at the moment, we know what Ludo 9 brings in possession.
15:23Ballard's playing well.
15:24So it's going to be really interesting and dynamic over the next few weeks.
15:28It's easy for me to say now with the beauty of hindsight, but I was actually surprised
15:34Lebris left Metham on the bench, to be honest, Jason.
15:36I thought with Sunderland defending a 1-0 lead on 70 minutes and then defending a point
15:44towards the end of the game that Metham would have been a surefire candidate to come on.
15:48Obviously, as I say, hindsight's 20-20.
15:51And we judge substitutions on their outcome, don't we?
15:54But I do just wonder why that substitution wasn't made.
16:00I think you can't have it both ways, Kenny.
16:02You can't say that you shouldn't sit on a lead and then say you should have brought
16:06a defender on.
16:06I think what Lebris was trying to do, I think, was to change the momentum of the game and
16:11to get Sunderland out.
16:13I think it's one of those, as you say, I know what you mean in terms of especially when
16:15you concede from two set pieces, why not have another really good experience centre-half
16:19on?
16:20But at the same time, I would flip that and say if Sunderland had conceded with three
16:24centre-halves on the pitch, the criticism would have been absolutely stinging, wouldn't
16:28it, in terms of why on earth have we invited Leeds on?
16:32Why have we invited this pressure?
16:33So I think that's a tricky one.
16:36I didn't really, by and large, I didn't necessarily mind the subs Lebris made, albeit I just thought
16:41maybe, especially with the mid-one I thought he could have made earlier, I thought Roberts
16:44had looked tired for a little while.
16:46I just think the Sam Edwin, that was the one that just didn't work.
16:50And that's going to be an interesting dynamic moving forward because we know what Alan Brown
16:53brings and did really well at the start of the season.
16:56If it's going to be about playing a player in that more attacking midfield role, I think
17:00moving forward, it's going to be quite hard to justify not using Brown in that role.
17:04So it's going to be really interesting to see how he manages that moving forward.
17:10Yeah, I think if Brown is sort of fit and ready to go, he's the much more obvious candidate
17:16to come on, isn't he?
17:17I was talking to my friend about it this morning and we were both sort of saying that if you
17:21look at that position that needs filling, if you're looking for someone to come on and
17:25bring those fresh legs, because you've said it many times, Chris Riggs played a lot of
17:28football and by the time he came off last night, he looked like he needed a rest.
17:32But, you know, one of the things that you're always going to get from Alan Brown is his
17:35work rate and ethic.
17:37And I think that, you know, the way that he puts himself about and also that sort of,
17:42you know, we're talking about experience and the know-how to get through championship
17:47matches.
17:48It's another factor that I think is working against Sam Ed at the moment where he hasn't
17:52had enough time to properly acclimatise himself with the division.
17:55Whereas if you're talking about, you know, Alan Brown, who's a wonderfully experienced
17:59championship footballer, then yeah, I do think that it could be the case that once Brown
18:05is ready to go, the British is going to have a really difficult decision to make in certain
18:09matches because there are going to be moments and occasions where they lend themselves much
18:13more to having Brown coming to the side than Sam Ed.
18:17I think the substitution thing is an interesting debate, James, because I was watching back
18:22through Sky's coverage of it this morning and Neil Warnock really sort of, not went
18:27in on the brisk, but he was suggesting that he never would have made those substitutions
18:30in the 70th minute, that he wouldn't change his side who are 1-0 up away at Elland Road.
18:36And there are really two sides to it, aren't there?
18:38Because on the one hand, as we've said, some of them were doing such a wonderful job of
18:42frustrating leads and sort of limiting the chances that they were creating.
18:45But at the same time, you know, when we're talking about Chris Wrigg and we're talking
18:49about Wilson Isabel, these are players who played an awful lot of football.
18:53And in the case of Miander, especially coming on, you know, it's not as if the British is
18:57bringing on a player who he doesn't trust or who we haven't seen can't perform at this
19:01level this season.
19:02So just sort of interested to get your opinion on those comments from Warnock.
19:06I mean, do you think they're a little bit out of line?
19:08Warnock knows more about football than, sorry, Warnock, yeah, Warnock definitely knows more
19:13about football than me.
19:14He's probably forgotten more about football than I'll ever know, to be fair.
19:17Absolutely love the bloke.
19:18But I do disagree.
19:19I think changes did need to be made, especially, you know, Leeds United were looking to their
19:24bench to change the game.
19:26Fatigue, tiredness, it was a big defensive effort by Sutton.
19:29They did get through a lot of running.
19:32That's why I mentioned that methamphetamine substitution, just to go back to what it is,
19:35because of the Championship experience, the defensive now, it's the fact that he is very
19:39good from set pieces.
19:40Again, you know, that's after we've just conceded two set-piece goals.
19:44So that's the thing that jumps out of you.
19:46Yeah, I think, although we're criticising the Sam Edds substitution, and rightly so,
19:51I think that's probably because the role in which he was asked to play.
19:54Maybe if he'd have come on and played a little deeper, he might have had a little bit of
19:58a better time of it.
19:59But although I think Lebris got the subs wrong, I think there still had to be made.
20:05I don't think you could really wait any longer with Leeds' fresh legs coming on.
20:11That's how I saw it.
20:12I mean, when Leeds started to bring on their subs, I think they did it in two lots of two,
20:17didn't they?
20:18I thought, like, we're going to have to freshen things here, because they're going to be
20:22raring to go.
20:23And, you know, I think the four of them, and I'd have to double-check this, but I'm pretty
20:27sure the four of them are internationals and worth quite a bit of money.
20:30So it was at that point that I actually started to worry a bit as well, I think.
20:36I mean, obviously, you've mentioned how, on paper, how damaging that result looks to be
20:41for Sunderlands.
20:42My promotion hopes.
20:44I mean, the sort of figures behind it, Phil, you know, they're now eight points off the
20:49top two.
20:49There are 13 matches left to play.
20:52I mean, do you think that that is too large of a gap for Sunderland to bridge over the
20:58coming weeks and months?
21:00Yeah, I think it probably is.
21:02I mean, the thing is, look, Sheffield United have got to play Leeds on Monday night, right?
21:06And so someone's got to drop points.
21:07So if Sunderland get the job done on Saturday, which I'm not suggesting for a second is a
21:11straightforward thing, but if Sunderland don't do that, then, you know, it's five,
21:15six points off one of those teams.
21:17And all of a sudden you're within one swing of making it really interesting.
21:20So I think, like, we can't underestimate the capacity for, like, carnage in the championship.
21:26And we've seen it over and over again in terms of recent weeks in Sunderland.
21:29Like, with that Plymouth game, we all thought, well, I still think it was an awful result.
21:34But at the time, it felt like an absolute catastrophe.
21:36And since then, Plymouth have picked up.
21:38Like, teams change managers, teams at the bottom of Sunderland pick up.
21:42Strange things kind of happen.
21:43Like, there's no reason to think that, you know, Watford, for example, when they came
21:47to Sunderland were, by all accounts, the dire straits.
21:50They took a good point from us and then they went and beat Barrett.
21:53So, like, strange things kind of happen.
21:54We shouldn't be sitting here saying the automatic promotion race is over because that's clearly
21:57not the case.
21:59And as I say, like, there's every reason to think there'll be twists and turns.
22:03I think Sunderland are big, big outsiders now.
22:06I think it's a pretty small shot that they've got.
22:09Because I think the thing at the moment is, realistically, for Sunderland to catch Chef
22:13United, Burnley or Leeds, they're going to have to win the vast majority of their games.
22:17And at the moment, we're not quite seeing the level of consistency, are we, to suggest
22:21that they're capable of doing that.
22:22You know, winning eight or nine on the bounce, which is probably what they have to do.
22:26So I think it's really unlikely.
22:28And as you mentioned earlier in the pod, it's important that while that is really disappointing
22:32and frustrating in some ways, we shouldn't get too sucked into the negativity of that.
22:35We should also look back the other way and say, if you said at the start of the season
22:40we'd have this point advantage over Seventh, we'd have been really happy.
22:43So I think there's a few twists and turns.
22:46But I think that it's very, very likely, I think, that Sunderland will be in the playoffs.
22:51And I don't think we should have anything to fear from that.
22:54I think Sunderland have proven that they can compete with everybody in this league.
22:57Leeds, I think, are a bit of a class apart.
22:59But I still think there's a lot of ground for positivity, even if the last few weeks
23:05at times have been really, really sort of deadly frustrating.
23:08Just on a slight tangent, it's crazy that Leeds beat Sunderland 2-1 and they used the bench,
23:15but Willy Noto didn't even get on the field.
23:19That's how strong their squad is.
23:22We do perhaps underestimate that Leeds are, well, a couple to maybe even three or four
23:29years ahead of Sunderland in terms of where they are as a club and where they've come from.
23:33They've obviously been promoted from the Championship, been in the Premier League,
23:36come back down to the Championship.
23:38They've got parachute payments.
23:39Sunderland are coming from League One, and this is our third season back in the Championship.
23:42So the disparity, I actually think Sunderland have done pretty well over the course of the
23:46season to bridge that gap and get relatively close to Leeds.
23:51Absolutely, absolutely.
23:52I think, yeah, anybody looking at it, obviously, we're very close to Sunderland and care deeply
23:57about it.
23:57But I think even from an outside perspective, that appears to be the general consensus,
24:02isn't it, that to all intents and purposes, even though Sunderland are a squad who have
24:06some wonderful individual talents and who Lebris have sort of managed to wrangle and
24:10were very, very effective and exciting team, they're still punching a little bit above
24:15their weight here.
24:16You know, when you consider, like you said, the quality that sort of permeates through
24:21that Leeds squad.
24:22And I think now you can make a very similar argument about Sheffield United if you look
24:26at the level of transfer business that they conducted in January.
24:30And obviously, you know, Burnley at Burnley and Scott Parker and the things that he's
24:34been able to do in terms of making them hard to beat is just borderline phenomenal, really,
24:39when you consider how long it's been since they last conceded the goal.
24:43I am sort of interested to get your opinion on the sort of the mindset that might have
24:49to be implemented from Sunderland if they are to go from chasing an automatic promotion
24:55place and potentially over the coming weeks, maybe sort of coming to more of a realisation
24:59that actually this is going to be a playoff campaign.
25:01I mean, how do you strike that balance, Phil, in terms of shifting perspective a little
25:08bit?
25:08Or is it the same thing?
25:09Is the goal still promotion?
25:10And it doesn't really matter how you go about getting there?
25:14Yeah, I think you've just got to keep going.
25:16As I say, like the absolute last thing you want is, let's say, you know, I'm not saying
25:20it laughing this way, Sheffield United to get beat by Leeds on Monday night and then
25:23to lose the following Saturday and then Sunderland drop sloppy points and you go, oh, actually
25:27we could have been two points within.
25:29I think certainly for the time being, you've just got to press ahead and take each game
25:33as a must win, pick your strongest team, pick the best team for the game and look at it
25:37that way.
25:37I think the one thing that, you know, if we did get five, six games out from the end
25:43of the season and it's a huge gap and it looks almost certain that Sunderland are not going
25:47to get into the top two, at that point, I think you start looking at it slightly and
25:53going, how do we get the squad in the best shape possible for the playoff campaign?
25:58You know, I'm jumping a long way ahead here, but do you say, can we get Chris Riga-Brila
26:02for a week or two?
26:03You know, can we get this player who is short of minutes but could have an impact in the
26:07playoff campaign?
26:07Can we get them on the pitch for some more minutes?
26:10I think there's a point at which you start looking at that, those kind of things.
26:13You know, we said it a lot and I said it last week, but the way Alex Neil got that squad
26:19ready for a playoff campaign was quite masterful, really.
26:22And I think you can get into that position.
26:24Sorry, but for me, we're not there yet.
26:27Like, I think, you know, as I said, Sunderland are now, I think, pretty big outsiders to
26:32make the top two, but you just never know.
26:34I don't think at the moment you can be looking at it any other way than a must-win game Saturday
26:39and moving forward and a few results and you never, ever know what's going to happen with
26:43the teams above you.
26:44So I think for now, you just have to keep going as you are.
26:47Obviously, that game on Saturday, James, comes against Hull City, who are currently one point
26:53outside of the relegation places, albeit with a game in hand on Derby County, who are immediately
26:59beneath them.
27:00I mean, it's a game that on paper Sunderland should fancy themselves in, but also we've
27:04seen this season that as much of a cliché as it may be, there are no easy games in the
27:09Championship.
27:11Yeah, we have seen that, obviously, with Plymouth and Watford coming to the stadium of, like,
27:16recently and getting those draws.
27:17You'd like to think Sunderland would have enough, I think, the concern for me, and it
27:22will always be a concern as a Sunderland fan as they've got two former Strikers, some
27:28former Sunderland Strikers that didn't score a lot of goals at Sunderland, and Mason Burstow
27:32and Joe Geldhardt.
27:33I don't know if they're both fit.
27:34I'd have to check, but that always worries me because we went through that long period,
27:37didn't we, where it felt like it was every week an ex-player would score against us in
27:41League One.
27:42But, yeah, I think it's important they bounce back, and in fairness to them, when this group
27:46of Sunderland players need to bounce back, they tend to pretty well.
27:50It'd be interesting to see what LaBreeze does ahead of that, actually, as Phil mentioned
27:54about Chris Rigg getting a little bit of a rest, perhaps.
27:57You know, Phil wrote a piece as well, Joe Benningham's one game away from a two-game
28:03suspension.
28:03So there's lots of these little things happening in the background.
28:06And if it is going to be a playoff campaign for Sunderland, which it looks like it will
28:10be a fair chance of that happening now, then you want Sunderland to sort of enter that
28:15with some good form, don't you?
28:17You don't want to arrive in the playoff sort of going through the motions, not in form,
28:20having to sort of rebuild again.
28:22So I think it's important that this team does bounce back and put in a performance.
28:27There's still a lot to be proud of this season.
28:29That unbeaten home record is still intact in the league.
28:33In February, which is a fantastic achievement.
28:35So, yeah, let's hope they can get back to winning ways.
28:41And finally, Phil, obviously, James has just mentioned that Joe Benningham, he is now just
28:46one booking away from a two-game suspension.
28:48I think it's the 11th of March when they play Preston North End.
28:52By the end of that game, it's like an amnesty.
28:53And if he isn't booked before then, then the slate is wiped clean, if you like.
28:58But over these next four matches that it will be before that comes into effect,
29:02how much do you think that will be playing on, not just his mind, but La Brissa's mind as well?
29:08Yeah, he did quite well with it earlier in the season.
29:13If I remember right, he came into a humour both right on that tightrope for quite an
29:16extended period and managed it really well.
29:18So fingers crossed they can do the same.
29:20I mean, listen, I am broadly of the opinion that when you play in those key positions,
29:24sometimes you just have to take them.
29:26I don't think you can adapt your game too much.
29:29You just have to play each game as it comes.
29:31For all we know, that Joe would be a huge miss and that we saw in the last game that he missed.
29:35It was a what for a game, wasn't it?
29:36But he was a big miss.
29:37It's something that our realistic promotion contenders,
29:39they have to have players who can come in and perform.
29:43So I think he just has to play each game as it comes, especially in midfield.
29:46Traheim's the same.
29:47Traheim's now two yellows away with four games to go.
29:51Again, sometimes he has to make tackles.
29:52Sometimes he has to take risks that can bring a yellow card.
29:55And that's just the game.
29:56And the other interesting one is he's now on eight.
29:59So he's a player that I really, really do not want to lose.
30:01And I agree with most Sunderland fans that it kind of didn't make any sense that he got booked
30:05and Joe Rodon didn't last night.
30:08Not a situation he really needed to be involved with.
30:10And he's picking up yellow cards at a real rapid rate at the moment.
30:14I'm not criticising him because he's been amazing for Sunderland this season.
30:17But I just think that is something that you can definitely be avoided.
30:20And I think he's on eight.
30:22So another two yellows in the next four games would mean he misses two games,
30:26which would be a massive blow for Sunderland.
30:28So hopefully that's one that he can manage.
30:31Because I don't think there's a need for a centre-forward to be picking up
30:34two bookings in the next few games.
30:36So fingers crossed he can avoid that because that would be a real blow.
30:41Absolutely.
30:42Well, fingers crossed.
30:44That is all we've got time for on this week's show.
30:46Join us again next week when we'll be discussing all the latest Sunderland news and developments.
30:50In the meantime, follow all the latest Black Cats news on the Sunderland Echo
30:53and give us a follow on social media as well.
30:55Thanks to James.
30:56Thanks to Phil.
30:57Thanks to you for listening.