Retired military general responds to DeSantis rollback of woke military policies
Retired military general responds to DeSantis rollback of woke military policies
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00:00 see the military losing its way, not focusing on the mission,
00:03 and focusing on a lot of these other things.
00:05 Things like DEI and all that stuff,
00:07 it hasn't worked in other aspects of society.
00:09 It very well may be on the constitutional chopping
00:12 block in light of the Supreme Court's decision
00:15 on racial discrimination in higher education.
00:18 And so it's not a model that I think
00:19 is going to be successful in the military.
00:22 DEI, of course, a reference to diversity, equity,
00:24 and inclusion measures.
00:26 That was Republican presidential candidate
00:28 and Florida governor Ron DeSantis outlining
00:31 why he unveiled a new plan to eliminate so-called "wokeness"
00:34 from the US military.
00:35 That was during my exclusive interview
00:37 with him on the campaign trail in South Carolina.
00:39 The DeSantis plan for the military
00:41 includes ending all groups and positions in the Pentagon
00:44 that focus on DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion,
00:47 banning transgender service members
00:49 from being able to serve as they identify,
00:52 and ending funding for what he calls, quote,
00:55 "activist climate change programs."
00:56 DeSantis also wants to reinstate all service members who
00:59 had been removed for refusing the COVID vaccine.
01:02 And he wants to punish retired generals and admirals who
01:05 speak out harshly against any sitting president, Congress,
01:08 or other officials.
01:09 Joining us now to discuss is the former commanding general
01:11 for the US Army, Europe, and Seventh Army,
01:13 retired Lieutenant General Mark Kirtling, who's also
01:15 a CNN military analyst.
01:16 General, thanks so much for joining us.
01:18 So DeSantis says the military is losing its way
01:21 by focusing on DEI and other what he called "woke"
01:24 initiatives.
01:25 As someone with decades of military experience
01:28 who still has contacts in the Pentagon right now,
01:32 do you agree?
01:33 How do you see it?
01:35 I disagree with that completely, Jake.
01:38 I'll be honest with you.
01:39 I not only have contacts still with forces,
01:42 but I'm a mentor to several organizations
01:44 in a leadership program.
01:46 I work with basic trainees and their commanders.
01:50 I've done some things with other services,
01:52 all with an approach to how we can be better as a military.
01:56 And truthfully, I don't understand
01:58 what Governor DeSantis is talking
02:02 about in some of these things.
02:04 And neither do most of the people in the military.
02:06 This is not an issue that is at the forefront of anyone
02:11 that I've talked to in the military.
02:13 So Governor DeSantis also wants to punish, prosecute
02:17 former members of the military, high ranking officials
02:20 who engage in harsh politics, really tough criticism
02:25 of a sitting president, for example.
02:27 What do you make of that?
02:28 What's interesting about it--
02:30 I was talking to somebody at the Pentagon about this proposal.
02:32 And he said-- his mind was open to it.
02:34 But he said, the first person that would be prosecuted,
02:38 the worst offender of all this, is Mike Flynn.
02:42 Yeah, it's interesting.
02:44 Because what I've tried to do with CNN, Jake,
02:48 and you know this, is comment on policies
02:51 or what the political leaders are doing.
02:55 I've never tried to attack a sitting political leader.
02:58 I'm not defending myself.
02:59 But certainly, there were times during the previous
03:02 administration, and even sometimes
03:03 during this administration, where
03:05 I've said a policy is something that is approached
03:08 in a different way in the military
03:10 than what a sitting president or a government
03:12 official is addressing.
03:14 That could be construed as taking potshots
03:20 at a political figure.
03:22 It's trying to inform the American people about the way
03:26 the military view things.
03:28 I take the four decades that I've had in the military
03:30 and say, hey, here's how those who
03:32 are wearing the cloth of the country
03:34 feel about this particular action,
03:36 just like we're doing now.
03:38 I don't see any wokeness in our military.
03:41 I've been honored to serve since the start of my service
03:45 in a very diverse force, serving alongside all races,
03:50 religions, cultures, men and women.
03:52 One in five of our military force today, of about 2 million,
03:58 are women.
03:59 And that's about 400,000 members of our force.
04:02 So some of the things that Governor DeSantis
04:04 is talking about, I think he's disconnected
04:07 from what the military actually does
04:10 and what they're made up of.
04:12 Is there an argument for transgender service members
04:16 not being allowed to serve as they want to, as they identify?
04:22 You have a trans woman identifying as a woman.
04:24 Is there an argument in DeSantis' favor for that?
04:30 I don't believe so.
04:32 But again, I have a different view of this.
04:35 Our military is an all-volunteer force.
04:37 It has been that way since the mid '80s.
04:40 It's a very diverse force.
04:41 And truthfully, it's the best in the world.
04:44 People volunteer to serve, men and women.
04:47 They swear an oath to our Constitution, which
04:49 outlines our values, our national values,
04:52 like dignity and respect for all people.
04:55 Sometime during the history of our military,
04:58 we failed in that with races, with women,
05:02 in some other areas.
05:03 So if someone is qualified to serve
05:07 and they meet the standards, which I heard Governor DeSantis
05:11 sort of dance around yesterday, I personally,
05:14 as a member of the military, believe
05:15 they should serve because they contribute
05:17 a great deal to the diversity--
05:20 and I'll use that word--
05:21 and the wokeness, which means you're investigating things
05:24 within the military.
05:25 I consider myself woke, Jake.
05:28 I will honestly say that, not only as a soldier,
05:31 but as a now citizen of Florida.
05:34 I'm woke, and I still live in Florida
05:36 because I like to investigate things.
05:38 I like to analyze things.
05:39 I like to expand my view of not only how our military works,
05:44 but how our enemies and our allies work as well.
05:48 Well, how would you define woke?
05:50 Because as Governor DeSantis noted yesterday,
05:52 even many people who rail against wokeness--
05:55 and he certainly is against wokeness, as he defines it--
05:58 don't have a definition.
05:59 How would you define it?
06:01 Well, I've never heard him give a definition.
06:04 I've heard one of his lawyers give a definition.
06:06 And if the definition his lawyer gave is the correct one,
06:10 then I'm going to say I'm woke.
06:11 It's someone that looks outside their normal field of view.
06:15 It's someone that opens their aperture
06:17 to different viewpoints, to try and analyze things
06:20 in maybe a unique way, to try and not go along
06:23 with common cultural bias, but in fact,
06:26 find out more things about a particular subject.
06:30 That's what the military does.
06:31 We're not taught what to think.
06:33 We are taught how to think, because that's
06:36 a very valuable attribute when you're
06:38 talking about dealing with not only our allies,
06:41 but with our enemies.
06:43 We have to dig into the view of different cultures,
06:46 different people.
06:48 My last job was as the commander of forces in Europe.
06:51 And truthfully, I dealt with 49 other countries
06:55 and the culture of those nations.
06:57 And I had to deal with them to build alliances
07:00 for different things that we were doing,
07:02 both in Afghanistan and in the continent.
07:05 So I needed to look at other cultures.
07:08 I needed to look to see other people's points of view.
07:11 And to me, that's how I define woke,
07:13 to try and expand my view of what other people think
07:17 and how they see the world.
07:18 Retired Lieutenant General Mark Kirtland, thank you so much.