Coach Nick welcomes on the show Golden State Warriors head coach Steve Kerr to discuss how he created the offense that unlocked Steph Curry's greatness, plus key insights into his own shooting that led Kerr to be one of the best shooters of his generation.
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SportsTranscript
00:00 Hey sports fans, Coach Nick here and welcome to B-Ball Breakdown.
00:03 Before we get to the interview with Steve Kerr, I wanted to point out that I have had
00:07 him on the show a couple times before and they're really awesome interviews because
00:10 I get to ask him questions that nobody ever asks him.
00:13 We get into discussions about X's and O's and strategy and communication and shooting,
00:18 all great stuff that you rarely see other media members ask.
00:21 So you definitely want to check those out, link in the description below.
00:24 And on this one, we start out talking about Seth Curry's new documentary and him being
00:28 underrated but what it really turns into is a discussion about how Steve Kerr was underrated
00:33 as a player.
00:34 And you'll hear some really great insights into shooting as well as the way they built
00:38 their offense around Steph to unlock him into one of the greatest players you've ever seen
00:42 play the game.
00:43 So without much further ado, here is the interview I did with Steve Kerr.
00:48 Well, Coach, I can't thank you enough for coming on the show and breaking some stuff
00:51 down with us about Seth Curry and this documentary.
00:55 And I thought we could kind of just jump right into it with, here's my question.
00:59 The underrated notion of this was that Curry's scouting report was way off, you know, but
01:03 coming out of college into the NBA.
01:05 It just so happens that at that time, you were probably busy reading a lot of scouting
01:10 reports.
01:11 Do you remember what that was like in your role as GM with the Suns?
01:15 Oh, yeah, we watched him carefully.
01:19 I remember seeing him for the first time at UCLA.
01:23 Davidson played against UCLA.
01:24 And Anaheim at the John Wooden Classic.
01:28 And he reminded us a lot of Steve Nash.
01:31 And so we weren't as concerned about his size as a lot of the scouts were.
01:38 I don't think anybody could have predicted, you know, what he eventually became.
01:42 But we thought he had a chance to be really good and much like Nash, a guy who fit the
01:49 modern game in terms of the skill set, being able to check every box.
01:56 Well, that's fascinating, because the modern game in theory didn't quite take hold until
02:01 2010, 2011.
02:04 This is now 2007, 2008.
02:08 But that said, I suppose we did have a model with Steve Nash, which you were busy watching
02:12 up close and personal.
02:14 So none of those things about being too slow, being too small, getting pushed around, that
02:19 didn't resonate with you guys as you were evaluating.
02:22 Well, I mean, it was a concern, but not a big enough concern to not draft him.
02:33 We tried to trade up to draft him, and we weren't able to.
02:37 But yeah, I mean, he was so much like Nash.
02:41 And I think because we had watched, you know, really Mike D'Antoni come in and change the
02:50 way the NBA was played, the Suns were kind of at the forefront of that.
02:55 So it was maybe a little easier to see Steph stepping into a role where he could be a shot
03:03 creator, shot maker like Nash, because neither guy blew you away with the speed and bounce.
03:11 But it was the balance and the coordination that was just so breathtaking.
03:17 I'm kind of curious in checking how old Steve Nash was during Steph's rookie years.
03:23 He came in at 2009, '10.
03:25 Nash was 35.
03:28 So imagine that, right?
03:30 Imagine you bringing Curry into that, being mentored for a couple of years, and then going
03:35 right into that.
03:36 I suppose that was what you're thinking was, right, to sort of smoothly transition into
03:38 the future.
03:39 Yeah.
03:40 I mean, that was the idea.
03:41 You know, we get a great mentoring situation with Nash.
03:46 And I remember Steve told me, he said, "Yeah, Curry's my favorite player in the draft.
03:52 I'd love to play with him."
03:55 But it wasn't meant to be.
03:56 And it's something I think about pretty often, because I'm glad it wasn't.
04:01 I'm glad it wasn't meant to be, because I never would have coached him here in Golden
04:05 State.
04:06 But let's talk about that for a second, because the notion of underrated and Steph Curry at
04:12 this point doesn't really work, because obviously he's rated where he should be, I'd imagine,
04:16 as one of the greats.
04:18 But it did strike me when I was kind of preparing this and knowing I was going to talk to you
04:21 that the real underrated, with all caps, would probably be the Steve Kerr story, wouldn't
04:27 you say?
04:29 Yeah, that would work in my story, too.
04:34 That title would work for sure.
04:36 So I just want to explore that, because I've always been fascinated by players that came
04:40 out of your era really good.
04:43 You know, and by the way, one of the reasons is that we now know how to teach like shooting,
04:46 for instance, a lot better than we did when you were growing up, when I was growing up.
04:51 So I'm always amazed at the guys that actually did overcome what I would perceive as suboptimal
04:56 teaching of shooting.
04:58 So I was kind of curious, do you have any insight into, you know, 13 year old Steve
05:03 Kerr, 14 year old Steve Kerr, as you got to develop that skill, what clicked so much better
05:08 than most other people you were playing with?
05:11 Well, I had great coaching.
05:13 You know, I used to go to John Wooden basketball camp when I was a kid.
05:16 And then as I got older, I was lucky to work with Chip England, who went to my high school.
05:23 He was four years ahead of me and now considered one of the great shooting coaches of all time.
05:28 He actually coached me when I was 14, 15 years old.
05:31 And so I had really good coaching.
05:34 My high school coach, Jerry Marvin at Palisades High was a legendary coach in the L.A. area.
05:40 So I was really lucky to have great coaching and to learn, you know, some pretty basic
05:46 mechanics as a young kid and then work on them from there.
05:50 So you feel like the basic mechanics that we all learned at some point, somehow you
05:56 solve that better than most of them.
05:58 I always feel like someone would have said, I realized that when I finally started lifting
06:02 my arms up before I started straightening my legs, something like that.
06:06 But it seems to me that especially the good shooters don't, maybe don't always have that
06:10 detail.
06:11 It just sort of happens over hard work.
06:14 Do you have any insight into that?
06:15 Was there any little thing there that you noticed that you were doing other people weren't?
06:19 No, I think it was, you know, I learned to shoot over a long period of time.
06:26 I had really good hand-eye coordination as a kid.
06:29 So, you know, as soon as I could pick up a ball, I could make the ball go through the
06:32 hoop.
06:33 But as I got older, like all kids, you know, I had to get the left hand off of the ball
06:38 as much as I could.
06:39 And, you know, when I finally got strong enough to shoot one handed, you know, I had to work
06:45 at that.
06:46 But I was still learning about the shot even late in my NBA career and, you know, learning
06:52 little tweaks, little thoughts and ideas that may have, you know, just helped me during
06:59 a season, maybe helped me get out of a slump.
07:03 I just think it's, you know, like anything, it's a constant work in progress.
07:08 And you're always learning, you're always getting better.
07:11 You know, it's funny, I use, I reference you and like Danny Ainge and a couple of guys
07:15 from that era who come up a lot of pin downs.
07:18 And a lot of times, you know, how do you know that you're open coming around that pin down?
07:22 I think I might have figured it out going frame by frame now that we have, you know,
07:25 YouTube and we can go look at these games again.
07:28 But did you have a little secret to that?
07:30 Because obviously the guys trailing, for instance, and you have to know if you're open.
07:33 Do you remember like how that worked for you?
07:34 How you knew you could get up and just catch and shoot versus maybe having to continue
07:37 to curl and dribble?
07:39 No, it was a really tough thing to do because the athletes in the NBA are just so good.
07:44 It's one of the reasons why I was much better going to my right shooting than going to my
07:49 left.
07:51 Unlike a lot of right-handed shooters, because going to my right allowed me to just get a
07:56 half step further away from the defender.
08:00 So one dribble right, you know, I could create a tiny bit of separation.
08:04 Now the shot blocker has to reach all the way across my body.
08:07 Whereas if I'm going left, you know, the shot blocker is right there on the ball.
08:11 So I grew much more comfortable going to my right or even, you know, curling off of a
08:19 pin down, you know, as I came to the pass, you know, into my shooting, you know, with
08:26 the ball in that right side pocket.
08:28 Because, you know, I can almost picture it.
08:29 I can see Ainge doing it.
08:30 I think I can see you doing it in my brain.
08:32 If you're going to your left, and by the way, to me, because you're going to your left,
08:35 you're already more aligned to the basket with your right arm and right wrist.
08:39 So it's almost like that's more natural.
08:41 But my memory I see coming off of a hop, which is another big one we can maybe discuss for
08:44 a second.
08:45 As you're in the air and the ball's coming in your hands, I feel like I would, there's
08:49 a glance down slightly where then out of the peripheral vision, you can then see where
08:54 the guy is before you land into the shot or not.
08:58 Does that sound familiar to you?
09:00 Yeah, I probably figured that out instinctively.
09:04 I never really, you know, thought of it on those terms.
09:07 But I think for me, like most players, it was a matter of learning the speed of the
09:12 game and figuring out what I could and couldn't do.
09:15 And that's the experience that, you know, the value of experience as you go and you
09:20 get better, you just figure out where your shots are going to come from and how to get
09:25 those shots off.
09:26 Well, okay, let's talk about getting shots off because, you know, there's a different
09:30 era between in Steph's career between when coaches switch and you took over.
09:34 So I knew you talked about this before, but I thought we could get into a little bit of
09:38 discussion about the unlocking of Steph Curry.
09:41 Although ironically, I believe the first year you coached him, he averaged less per game
09:45 slightly than the year before and then exploded the next year after that, which is probably
09:49 part of the process of what you were doing building your offense.
09:52 So can you give us a little more insight into that and how you sort of built that and put
09:57 it together from scratch?
09:59 Well, first of all, Steph was an all-star before I got here.
10:03 So, you know, he was one of the main reasons I wanted this job.
10:08 He was such a brilliant player that I and a brilliant human being that I knew if I could
10:14 connect with him, I'd have a much greater chance for success.
10:19 But all we tried to do, you know, when I got here my first year, our staff just wanted
10:24 to get a little more movement.
10:26 Steph was so good off the ball in college and then he was getting really good on the
10:32 ball his first few years in the NBA.
10:35 And so that combination is so rare.
10:39 Very few players, if any, have had that combination of being lethal both on and off the dribble.
10:48 Mark Price comes to mind, maybe Ray Allen a little bit, not to the extent that Steph
10:54 is, but usually guys are either good off the dribble or off the catch, but not both.
11:00 So we also had a lot of great passers on our team, especially our big guys.
11:05 So we just felt like moving Steph off the ball would open up the game with some of our
11:12 passing with guys like Bogut, David Lee, Draymond.
11:16 And so it was really a fun way to play.
11:20 And so you sat down, I mean, you had been a GM, you had played for Pobb, you played
11:24 for Phil Jackson on the triangle and other various offenses.
11:29 So you know, specifically some of the routes, some of the ways you decided to put it together,
11:33 like how did that, you know, is there a way to encapsulate that process and explain that
11:38 and how it all came together so quickly?
11:41 Yeah, I mean, I think the offense really was a hybrid of the triangle from Phil Jackson
11:47 and Tex Winter and the San Antonio weak and strong motion stuff.
11:54 And so we had, you know, some of our sets were straight out of the San Antonio system,
12:00 you know, our weak role where Steph hits a head, cuts through and it's swing, swing.
12:05 And we pin down onto the screener down on the block.
12:10 That was Tony Parker for years in San Antonio, and it just seemed like an obvious set.
12:15 The biggest thing from the triangle were the split, the low post splits.
12:21 You know, we ran that in Chicago and it was, I always thought it was so hard to guard and
12:26 it was a great way to get open shots for shooters, catching the ball at an angle where they can
12:31 already see the hoop.
12:33 So they don't have to get these pin downs where they're running away from the hoop.
12:37 You know, if you throw the ball to the low post and you get a split, if the defense makes
12:42 a mistake, it's not only an open shot, but you're staring right at the rim, which I think
12:47 makes it a much easier shot.
12:48 I think the statistics will also bear that out when passes come from the basket area
12:52 out, it's a higher percentage than other ones.
12:55 And I always had a problem with floppy sets, which we don't see a lot of anymore because
12:59 you're having to go so fast away from the basket and then somehow catch, get yourself
13:03 in line, get that shot off the momentum.
13:06 Now you did probably more floppies than anybody in that era in a way that that had to be a
13:12 thing that you needed to master, right?
13:14 Coming off of the, going at a 45 degree away from the basket and then somehow turn and
13:17 shoot it.
13:18 Yeah, I mean, we ran some floppy in the triangle.
13:25 That was one of our sets that Phil would actually run for those of us who were shooters on the
13:31 team, you know, just a pin down.
13:35 And if it's not there, you flow right back into the triangle, hit the post, set the split
13:40 cut, you know, make the third cutter screen.
13:42 I mean, all those things were so instinctive in that offense, which was one of the reasons
13:47 it was such a fun offense to play in.
13:51 But a lot of teams were running floppy back then.
13:54 Pat Riley's teams all ran it.
13:56 I think of John Starks flying off screens.
13:59 Reggie Miller was the best of the whole era, flying off those multiple screens and being
14:04 able to shoot, you know, when his momentum was carrying him away from the hoop.
14:10 Those are difficult shots, but yeah, Steph makes those with ease.
14:14 JJ Redick, Clay Thompson, those are the guys I think of.
14:18 And so interestingly enough about the low post splits that you're talking about is when
14:22 you watch the Bulls do it when you were there, they didn't you guys didn't often run that.
14:27 You would have the corner and the wing cut through at the same time and then do your
14:31 you know, set a screen on the weak side forward and come across.
14:34 So sometimes you would.
14:35 I think I'd be able to find a couple times I would go through the old footage of that
14:39 split cut that you guys run now.
14:41 So I'm kind of curious, so how did you because if you watch Texas teams from the from Kansas
14:45 State in the 60s, that was the base where they did it the way you do it now.
14:50 So I'm kind of curious, how did you I mean, that seemed to be a little bit of a departure
14:53 from what the normal triangle was when you started running it.
14:57 How did that come about?
14:58 Well, really, we just wanted to run it organically so that when the ball went into the post from
15:05 the wing, it was just an automatic split between the guy on the wing and the guy at the top
15:11 of the key.
15:14 Usually we did not have the corner, the strong side corner filled.
15:18 It was usually more of a five out or a four out setting with one guy posted and you run
15:24 right into the splits.
15:27 So it just sort of happened organically.
15:29 But we we you know, as our guys got more and more comfortable with it, then we started
15:35 calling sets out of it.
15:37 And actually, you know, we we we eventually gave it a name and started running different
15:41 things out of it.
15:42 But the whole idea at first was any of our big guys, you know, run down to the block,
15:48 get the ball and we're going to get Steph Curry and Clay Thompson in a split.
15:52 And that's going to put a lot of stress on the defense.
15:55 Absolutely.
15:56 And then what I like about it now is that I have to imagine out of necessity, you've
15:59 developed some really clever ways of disguising this until all of a sudden there's a split.
16:04 It has to be because the defense has just simply got better at guarding the initial
16:07 split and that basic action.
16:09 Right.
16:10 Yeah.
16:11 And so many teams started switching that, you know, I think the whole league started
16:18 to run gaggles where you get three guys in a in a in a row without the ball and switching
16:27 when there's three people involved off the ball is much more difficult than with two.
16:32 And so I think Brad Stevens started running kind of weak side gaggles.
16:38 Eric Spolstra runs them beautifully in Miami.
16:42 So we started adding that where, you know, now all of a sudden you're you're you're splitting,
16:47 but you're also you're getting a third guy curling out of those splits.
16:51 And the ball sometimes will be up at the top of the key or at the wing.
16:55 So you're doing it at different angles.
16:58 And I think that's one way the NBA has really evolved over the last five, six years.
17:04 Instead of, you know, all high pick and rolls with the floor space, you're getting more
17:09 and more teams kind of adding this kind of movement, splits and gaggles, trying to trying
17:14 to confuse the switching defenses because they're tough to attack one on one.
17:19 Well, you know what I noticed having studied so much footage and, you know, since 2010,
17:23 when I started this whole thing was that, you know, you hold the fist up, you call it,
17:28 you know, pick and roll right at the beginning and the defense.
17:30 That's how they're used to practicing that they're in the best position they can possibly
17:33 be in if you do it from the start.
17:36 What I feel like the Spurs sort of did influence us in the 20 in their run was that they needed
17:43 some side to side movement before the pick and roll.
17:47 And I'm wondering if that is something that I mean, you you are close with pop and this
17:50 is what you're developing as well.
17:51 It seems to me that this would be something you would probably tell every coach in there
17:55 if they're designing their offense to get some sort of movement before you didn't set
17:59 the ball screen.
18:00 Is that fair?
18:01 For sure, for sure.
18:03 And that's what some of the weak and strong actions in San Antonio allowed pop to do.
18:09 And so we've we've copied some of that stuff.
18:13 I think the challenge now you've got so many teams who are playing for guys who are six,
18:20 seven and can switch everything.
18:23 You really can't just do stuff from a stagnant basis and run a pick and roll and expect to
18:29 gain much of an advantage unless your guy has otherworldly talent and can just blow
18:34 by everyone.
18:36 So I think that's where the creativity comes into play.
18:39 And that's where, you know, as I said, I think there's a lot of coaches who are who are really
18:43 clever with that.
18:44 Rick Carlisle comes to mind.
18:47 You know, he he runs a lot of good stuff where there's some deception and movement.
18:52 You're just trying to get the defense to react one way and just get them a half step behind
18:57 when the when the pick and roll is actually established.
19:00 I'm kind of curious, you know, most NBA players are so skilled, they can go either direction.
19:04 But do you ever find yourself sort of designing sets knowing you want to get this player going
19:09 to his strong side, for instance, versus the other way?
19:13 Does that ever come up?
19:14 Yeah, and a lot of times I'll call a play in the huddle and I'll just, you know, maybe
19:21 Jordan Poole last year, Steph, occasionally they'll just say, hey, let's run it on the
19:26 other side so I can go that way.
19:28 I'll say, OK, we'll just flip it.
19:30 And then I learn, you know, next time I call that play, I remember to run it on that that
19:35 side of the floor.
19:36 But I would say most players have a tendency and a preference, you know, going one way
19:42 or the other, and you definitely try to design stuff to two players preferred sides.
19:47 Well, you know, watching the Steph documentary, what I'm doing, going frame by frame, I can
19:51 kind of look at it on my computer screen and I'm always examining the mechanics and all
19:56 the things that Steph is doing.
19:58 The one thing that, you know, I make a big deal about is how the eyes follow the ball
20:01 after the release.
20:03 And we've talked about this before.
20:04 We have freeze frames of you doing this before the ball's out of your hand even.
20:09 And I know you've mentioned this before, where I believe you even had you had coaches in
20:12 your past who tried to stop you from doing that.
20:14 Is that is that right?
20:15 Yeah, in fact, Chip England tried to get me to switch.
20:19 And as I said, he's you know, he's one of the great teachers of all time.
20:23 To me, I think it's you don't really teach it.
20:27 I think a player when he starts shooting naturally does one or the other based on what his brain
20:32 is telling him to do.
20:33 And I would feel strange telling someone to, you know, to shift because it was so awkward
20:41 for me when I tried to do it.
20:42 But, you know, having studied players, you know, once I learned that, oh, wait, some
20:49 people watch the ball, some people look at the rim.
20:52 I started paying closer attention.
20:54 And there's there's guys who do both, you know, like like some of the great shooters
20:59 of all time were ball watchers.
21:01 You know, Reggie Miller, Larry Bird, Steph, Clay.
21:06 But there's also been phenomenal shooters, Eddie Johnson, who just stared at the rim
21:10 the entire time.
21:13 There's great shooters on both sides.
21:14 It's just I think it's however your brain operates, you just let that let the person,
21:19 you know, let that let that go.
21:20 I mean, I will say the list of the great shooters that do follow the ball is much longer than
21:25 it don't.
21:26 So, you know, Redick and KD are the two guys right now I could think of who could really
21:30 are laser focusing the rim the whole way.
21:32 But I do think it's interesting is that and you I think you can back me up on this.
21:36 It's a different shot when you do one or the other and you try doing the other way.
21:39 Right.
21:40 Is that the other way to you?
21:42 When I tried to just look at the rim and I shot the ball, I felt like I had no idea where
21:47 the ball was going.
21:48 I felt naked.
21:50 It was it was a bizarre feeling.
21:52 And so I did.
21:53 I didn't experiment with that for more than about five minutes.
21:57 Now, and by the way, the argument is, what does it matter?
22:00 It's out of your hand for the most part.
22:02 So how?
22:03 But I think that must be the testament to how much the psychological aspect of shooting
22:07 influences the ball.
22:08 Right.
22:09 I mean, that that sort of tells you right there.
22:11 Yeah, I think so.
22:13 I mean, you know, it's it's in every player's mind, you know, how he sees the ball, how
22:20 he sees the hoop, how he's comfortable.
22:23 So I think I would never change anybody from one direction to the other.
22:30 You know, like you said, Kevin Durant is a rim watcher.
22:34 JJ Redick, these guys are two of the greatest shooters of all time.
22:38 So I think Mark Price, if I remember correctly, was also a rim watcher.
22:44 I'd have to I'd have to to to check that.
22:46 But it's there's definitely a psychological component to shooting and you just want the
22:52 player to have as much confidence as possible.
22:54 Yes, that's a really good point.
22:56 And the confidence thing, I tend to kind of get a little bit what's the word uneasy because
23:02 I don't know what that means per se.
23:04 To me, what confidence means is rhythm.
23:07 And when I and what rhythm to me is very good.
23:09 I like the concrete, very specific stuff.
23:11 So to me, rhythm is when are you lifting your arms in conjunction with when are your knees
23:15 straightening, which is a concept that I don't think you probably never when you were growing
23:20 up and even in high school, never no one had ever discussed that concept with you while
23:24 you're shooting.
23:25 Right.
23:26 Yeah, I remember my high school coach brought it up to me.
23:29 That was the first time anybody ever said anything to me.
23:32 But now I've I've really grown to to to look at that closely when I see a shooter.
23:42 I've even asked you a couple of times, hey, can you evaluate one of our guys and tell
23:46 me what you see?
23:47 And you've pointed out, you know, maybe the ball going up and the body going down, you
23:52 know, as a player rises up here, his knees are going down to bend to two things going
23:59 in opposite direction.
24:00 It's almost impossible to tie that back together.
24:03 And so I know you're a big proponent of rhythm.
24:05 I think it's a huge part of being a great shooter.
24:08 And it's one of the reasons Steph Curry is the greatest of all time, because he is constantly
24:13 in rhythm.
24:14 Well, let's talk about really quickly about the hop, because you were a hop shooter.
24:19 And again, Craig Hodges has a great story.
24:21 You guys didn't line up for the Bulls together, but you might have even come across this path.
24:27 And he talked about a great story of him doing the drills, I think, for the Bulls and killing
24:31 everybody, getting more shots off and work quicker than anybody else.
24:33 And the coaches are looking at him like they don't know what, why I'm hopping.
24:37 And these guys are trying to one to it and they can't get it off in time.
24:41 I don't remember, I actually, when I was growing up, I had a hop coming off the baseline, you
24:45 know, like almost a floppy kind of thing.
24:48 And never shot it anywhere else.
24:49 And even though I loved it, it was really good for me.
24:52 And I think part of the reason why is because no one ever taught it or even talked about
24:55 it.
24:56 So how did you develop that?
24:57 Was that high school?
24:58 Was that college?
24:59 Was that later?
25:00 It was college.
25:01 Yeah.
25:02 I had an assistant coach at Arizona named Scott Thompson, who taught me the hop.
25:06 And I just started really shooting, you know, hundreds of shots a day and I'd shoot 10 at
25:12 a spot.
25:13 And, you know, and Coach Thompson would rebound for me.
25:15 He'd throw it right back.
25:16 And I would, it just was so natural to hop into a shot 10 times in a row as you're getting
25:23 the rhythm of the rebound back and forth.
25:26 And I think I just shot so many shots practicing that way that the hop just became really natural
25:32 for me.
25:33 And, and that's why, you know, I was, I was much more of a spot up shooter than, than
25:38 anything is that, you know, that hop as that pass is coming, if you can be, you know, have
25:45 your momentum going towards the ball, towards the hoop, that hop just builds that rhythm
25:49 and makes the shot much easier.
25:51 Well, you know, I just made this epiphany having been a hop coach for a long time and
25:55 thought I knew everything about it.
25:57 You know, the notion of, we talk about rhythm, you know, when you lift your feet off the
26:00 ground as you're right before you catch it, as the feet are touching the ground, your
26:04 knees are already beginning that straightening into that spring off of the ground.
26:08 Right.
26:09 When you watch a one, two, oftentimes when they, when they plant the two, there's still
26:13 some more flexing down into that bend.
26:16 Right.
26:17 And you're not, you can't quite mimic that hop, that springiness.
26:21 All of that said, I've been able to help some one twos get that happening a little bit more
26:25 closer to a hop.
26:27 So I guess the point being is that yes, the more closer we can get to a hop, I think the
26:30 more ideal our shot ends up being.
26:32 I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the shot when Stockton comes off of you and
26:37 Michael hits you on the top of the key, that's a hop into the game winner, wasn't it?
26:41 I think so.
26:42 Yeah.
26:43 And to me, it's just easier.
26:46 But the one two is the one you have to do off the pin down.
26:49 You know, you really can't do a hop off of a pin down because you'd be catching the ball
26:56 facing the opposite direction.
26:57 So you have to turn your body and then one two.
27:01 And I think that's a much more difficult shot.
27:03 But that's where you see the separation from, you know, the high school rate shooters to
27:09 college to the pros.
27:10 And when you look at guys now, you know, Jamal Murray and Steph and, you know, you mentioned
27:17 Redick, guys who are, you know, Chris Middleton curling off a pin down and getting into the
27:23 paint one to rising up, shooting over the top.
27:26 It's just lethal.
27:27 Yeah.
27:28 I mean, I've seen guys being able to groove in the hop and like it's a pirouette almost
27:32 right to like land and get in as you're hopping.
27:35 Some guy you can do it, but I hear you.
27:37 The inside pivot foot ends up helping you get that turn better under balance.
27:41 But let's let's finish this up, I thought, with a little bit of sort of coaching communication
27:45 philosophy because that keeps coming up.
27:47 And I feel like we're in this crossroads where you have a lot of coaches who are, let's just
27:52 say, you know, older than you.
27:55 Right.
27:56 And then there are coaches who are like your age and younger.
27:58 There seems to be a crossroads here where certain coaches coach a certain way.
28:03 And I might use the terms like anger and disgust could be a real motivational tool they use
28:09 or communication tool.
28:11 It feels like perhaps we're moving away from that as we understand, you know, the chemistry
28:14 of the brain.
28:16 So I was just wondering if you had some insights into that.
28:19 I mean, people might just sort of scoff and say, well, you're in the NBA and those are
28:22 men, they're professionals, they're making all this money.
28:24 You're not going to be yelling and screaming.
28:26 But I think it's safe to say you probably have seen your share of that kind of communication
28:30 at the NBA level, too.
28:31 Right.
28:32 Yeah.
28:33 I mean, I think the biggest area where coaching has changed is the nature of what is said.
28:39 You know, there's still plenty of coaches, myself included, who will snap occasionally
28:43 and yell and scream.
28:46 I think it's more effective the less often you do it.
28:49 But I think you have to have that in your in your bag because the players need to know
28:56 that you're in charge and that you're paying attention.
28:58 In the old days, though, coaches could denigrate you and say things that were personally offensive.
29:07 And it seems so crazy now.
29:09 But when I look back at my career growing up, other coaches or coaches, you know, coaches
29:19 who coached me, it wasn't that uncommon to have someone really say something offensive
29:26 and you were just supposed to take it.
29:29 And so I think we've come a long way.
29:32 And I think every coach now in the NBA knows that if you want to get fired, that's a great
29:37 way to do it.
29:38 You know, be personally offensive to your players.
29:40 So I've been so blessed to play for Pop and Phil Jackson and Lute Olson and Lenny Wilkins,
29:47 all these Hall of Famers.
29:49 And there's always this respect level that comes from great coaches, a communication,
29:55 a respect that allows that coach to also, you know, get a little pissed off and lose
30:04 his mind and yell.
30:06 As long as you know the coach cares about you.
30:08 And I think it's, you know, you'll let him yell at you.
30:12 That's kind of my philosophy.
30:13 Sure.
30:14 And I do want to point out that there is a difference between like passion and anger,
30:18 right?
30:19 Yeah.
30:20 So passion is great.
30:21 I mean, yeah, we see you'll throw the clipboard sometimes and stuff like that.
30:25 I think that you're right that there are moments for that as well.
30:30 I don't want you to have to break any news because I was going to say, hey, give me what's
30:33 an example of someone that's insulting thing you're talking about, but you don't have an
30:37 anecdote like that from a long time ago, do you?
30:41 No.
30:42 Okay.
30:43 Yeah.
30:44 I'd rather not share that stuff.
30:45 But I think just in general, I think there's a much better awareness that the respect level
30:51 has to be there.
30:53 But more importantly, that the best way to reach someone is to speak to them in a human
30:58 way, in a connective way.
31:03 And I mean, it's clearly been proven in studies that human beings will respond better when
31:13 they're addressed in a respectful manner.
31:16 But hopefully, if you have a good season and a team that responds well to coaching, it
31:23 all becomes more of a collaboration at the NBA level.
31:26 And that's what I've really enjoyed is collaborating with our players here and trying to figure
31:31 out whatever equation is in front of us.
31:34 For sure.
31:35 And I would love for that statement to even emanate down to college and high school.
31:38 I mean, that collaboration can still happen.
31:41 I can remember when I was coaching high school as a head coach, I've heard coaches who will
31:46 every after every practice, they will invite feedback from the players.
31:50 How did I do?
31:51 How did I coach today?
31:52 And I'm shuddering to think of my rookie, when I was a first year head coach at a high
31:57 school level, I wouldn't have wanted that.
31:59 I don't want to hear what they say about me.
32:01 But man, if I were to do it again, I can tell you right now, I would have those questions.
32:05 I would want that feedback.
32:06 And I would want them to be able to express themselves in that same way.
32:09 I think it's really important.
32:10 I mean, I suppose you obviously must get, do you get feedback from your NBA guys on
32:14 your coaching?
32:15 Yeah, yeah.
32:17 I think we have a pretty collaborative process.
32:20 And so, you know, I've had players, you know, our leaders, you'd never get this from a young
32:27 player, but our leaders have told me in the past, hey, you know, you may have crossed
32:33 the line on this one or, you know, okay, you know, but it's a collaborative relationship
32:38 built on years of trust.
32:41 And, you know, since we all know that we're all going to make mistakes, we're all human,
32:45 I think it makes it easier just to, once you build that chemistry that allows for this
32:55 to happen, it's much easier to just speak freely and understand that, you know, nobody
33:01 is right all the time.
33:02 Nobody's wrong all the time.
33:03 It's really a process to try to find the best possible solution and then try it.
33:09 And you have to have the awareness that it may not work because this is not a math experiment,
33:14 you know, or math equation, this is a science experiment.
33:17 This is just, it's basketball, it's more art than science.
33:20 Sure.
33:21 Warriors fans are now racking their brains trying to figure out who you're talking about
33:24 and what that situation was, but I'll leave it to their imagination.
33:28 The last thing I'll leave us with is, I think in this idea of how we want to communicate,
33:33 how we want to coach and what it means and how we get to the studies, do you think that
33:37 there's a thing about the modern era where three-point shooting is so important, right?
33:41 And where if you're going to get outscored by three or four or five threes in that game,
33:46 you're probably going to lose.
33:47 It seems to me that keeping your players in a certain frame of mind in order to be able
33:54 to be ready to shoot and be successful shooting from 25 feet or farther is imperative in this
34:00 game.
34:01 And I think that goes for every level now.
34:03 Does that resonate with you at all?
34:05 Yeah.
34:06 I mean, we constantly are pushing for our players to shoot threes, maybe too much.
34:14 So last year we had games where we were just launching that I thought it got a little out
34:19 of hand.
34:20 And so you want to find some balance, but there's no doubt.
34:24 You just look at the numbers.
34:26 And if you make more threes than your opponent in the NBA these days, I think it's like an
34:31 80 percent.
34:32 Now you probably know the number better than I do, but it's really hard to win games when
34:38 you don't make more threes than your opponent.
34:41 So it's obviously been something we've built our team on for good reason with Steph and
34:48 Clay and Kevin Durant here and Jordan Poole and a lot of guys who are great shooters.
34:55 So we'll keep doing that.
34:56 But the rest of the league's doing it too.
34:58 And there's a lot of great shooters out there.
35:01 Has you had that kind of focus on, OK, we've got to keep these guys calm and we've got
35:04 to keep these guys in the moment.
35:06 We can't we don't want to add to any agitator with our own coaching stuff like is that a
35:10 focus for you guys in terms of maybe an edge?
35:14 Yeah, you don't want the guys feeling like pressure and thinking about every shot, you
35:20 know, because there's a lot at stake.
35:23 And I know from my own playing experience, it was just so much easier to play when I
35:28 was loose and free.
35:29 And that's the atmosphere we try to provide for our guys.
35:32 Well, I've seen some practices and I certainly have.
35:35 I recognize that that atmosphere you're describing has been is there and it's created.
35:39 It's been it's been amazing.
35:40 And in fact, what's more amazing, having been the practices, a lot of other teams is how
35:43 quickly you will put in the things you're talking about offensively.
35:47 They can run it really easily, very within a few times.
35:50 And then more importantly, that night run it.
35:52 Right.
35:53 Well, and which is a testament to, I think, everything that you've built.
35:56 So, Coach, thank you so much for coming on the show.
35:59 I really, really appreciate this has been really enlightening.
36:02 Coach Nick, always a pleasure.
36:04 Great to see you.
36:05 Well, I'll sign off like I always do.
36:06 If you can join me and don't forget sports fans at B-ball Breakdown.
36:09 We're not a channel.
36:10 We're a conversation.
36:11 You in?
36:12 Are you in, Coach?
36:13 I'm in.