"My Wife Just Left and Took My Son!" Freedomain Call In

Stefan Molyneux

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Transcript

00:00:00 Hello. Hey, how's it going? Good, Stefan. How are you? I'm good. Good. Sorry for being a little late.

00:00:05 Had a tech issue or two, but I am ready to roll. I'm ready to roll. What's on your mind?

00:00:10 Okay. Well, thank you for taking my call. I appreciate it. I have actually two issues.

00:00:21 I sent you a message that I have at the same time. I've got issues at home and at work.

00:00:30 In the past couple of weeks that happened. So at the same time, I found out that my wife is moving

00:00:35 away to her parents with our son. And at work, I got demoted. I got replaced by the person that

00:00:44 left that job previously. So, yeah, we can start from there.

00:00:51 All right, Saur. I'm sorry to hear about both of these things. I'm sure we can do some

00:00:57 useful stuff. So do you want to start with... Oh, do you think that there's a common issue

00:01:04 between the two situations? Or do you want to start with childhood? What's your preference?

00:01:08 The common issue, I mean, the common thing between these two things is me.

00:01:15 So I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with me, I guess.

00:01:18 I'm sorry, just out of curiosity, your audio is a little hard to hear. Do you have...

00:01:25 Are you trying to use a headset? Or what are you using for your microphone?

00:01:29 Yes, I'm using earbuds. Let me just get these off.

00:01:32 Okay, is it better now?

00:01:34 Oh, yeah, much better. Thank you.

00:01:36 So where was I? I'm the common denominator between these two things. So it may be me.

00:01:42 No, no, no, I get that. I'm just saying, what are the issues, do you think?

00:01:48 I don't know. I don't know. I think I see myself getting into these impossible situations.

00:01:56 You know, I'm trying to find out why and how do I not get into those.

00:02:01 Okay. What's an impossible situation in your marriage?

00:02:07 Right, well, me and my wife are not being able to resolve our issues. I think our issues kind

00:02:16 of keep getting reburied, and then they resurface again and again, but we are unable to kind of

00:02:22 resolve them, if that makes sense.

00:02:24 Sorry, are you still there?

00:02:36 Yes, yes.

00:02:37 Yes, okay. So why don't we start with what your childhood was like?

00:02:43 Sure. So I would say my childhood was good, even though maybe on paper it wouldn't sound like it,

00:02:51 because I was born in Yugoslavia, you know, right before the war, and then in Bosnia, right? So

00:02:59 my parents were Serbs, so we had to move to Serbia, and then later on, 10 years later,

00:03:07 there was bombing. So on paper, you would say, "Oh my God, this is horrible," and there was

00:03:12 inflation and all these uncertainties and whatnot. But I do remember having a good childhood,

00:03:18 because my parents, they managed to protect me and my sister from this harm. We were not

00:03:27 suffering that much. We were never hungry. There was nothing fighting in our family.

00:03:37 I did that ACE score that you ask people to do, and it is zero with an asterisk, because

00:03:43 my father actually hit me twice, and so it's like 0.5, I guess. It's not completely zero,

00:03:50 but you get the point. So we were okay. Money was not great anywhere in the country, but

00:03:59 we were fine. We did go to the seaside. We had our needs met. In 1995, when everybody's,

00:04:07 I don't know, the kids were trying to get a Sega or whatever, I got my first computer. So

00:04:15 my parents went above and beyond to kind of make sure that my sister and I have our,

00:04:21 that we don't suffer. Is there anything in detail that you want me to talk about regarding my

00:04:30 childhood? Yes, as a whole. So when your parents want you to do something different or disagreed

00:04:39 with you about something, or you disagreed with them, and it was important, what would they do?

00:04:43 How would they reason with you? You said you were only hit twice, which is good. I mean,

00:04:49 as far as averages go, that's good. And how were you punished?

00:04:54 Well, there was not too much punishment. I managed, I actually had a pretty good relationship

00:05:01 with both of them. My mom was a very kind of mellow person. She would not be very confrontational.

00:05:08 So when there was an issue, I would have to kind of ask my dad to make a call on it.

00:05:16 And fortunately, my dad was a reasonable person. He was a military officer, right? So his

00:05:24 approach was firm, but he was fair. So if he said no, my request would definitely be no, unless

00:05:35 I say I make a good case for it. Or confrontation wise,

00:05:41 I'm trying to think, but we didn't really have that many fights. Not really.

00:05:52 And how did you get along with your sister?

00:05:54 My sister is almost six years older than me.

00:06:02 We like each other. I love my sister and everything, but we were not of the same

00:06:08 generation. So we were not that close growing up. That's a big gap for kids. But sorry, go on.

00:06:16 Right, right. So I could not participate in the things that she wanted to do or

00:06:22 the other way around. But we always had a decent relationship. Not too deep, not too close.

00:06:31 But friendly.

00:06:33 It's interesting that your father, I mean, he fled war as a military man. I'm trying to

00:06:44 sort of figure out, normally they're kind of kept close during times of war.

00:06:48 No, he did not flee. He was in the war. But he managed to get us, me, my mom, my sister and

00:06:58 my mom's parents outside of Bosnia.

00:07:02 Oh, okay. So your father, and how long was he in the war for?

00:07:06 I want to say for two years, three years. For me, I was very young back then. I don't have

00:07:16 memories of that place or the war. But I do remember stories later on when everybody was

00:07:24 kind of wondering. There were many people that actually fled completely, not just to Serbia,

00:07:30 but they went abroad, far away, the United States, you know, and the Navy, Australia.

00:07:35 And my parents had that opportunity as well. But they decided against it. So yeah, my dad

00:07:42 did stay in the war. And he was actually pretty, a very high rank officer in the army.

00:07:52 He wasn't like an infantryman, or he wasn't a direct combat guy. He was more

00:07:56 planning and executing?

00:07:59 Right.

00:08:00 Okay. And of course, you don't remember him from before the war, because you were so young.

00:08:10 And you have good memories of him afterwards, that he was a reasonable guy. And as you say,

00:08:15 if you could make a good case, then he would usually listen. Is that right?

00:08:19 Yes. Yes. I'm very grateful for him, because he himself didn't really have a good childhood.

00:08:26 He got abandoned by his father. So him being the way he is, was really kind of a lot of work,

00:08:33 and I would say a miracle.

00:08:35 Right. Okay. And so what were your teenage years like?

00:08:44 My teenage years? So let me think about this.

00:08:48 So I did go to the same high school my sister went, because she had a good experience over

00:08:58 there. And it was kind of a unique school in Serbia. It's like a graphic arts school. So it

00:09:04 was very, I would say, not liberal, but it was not as strict as others. So I did have my opportunity

00:09:13 to be myself, explore, be creative. That was very good. And I liked that, because other options kind

00:09:23 of didn't appeal to me. And fortunately, my parents didn't push me to any particular option.

00:09:29 You know, they gave me and my sister freedom to choose the path that we wanted for us. So

00:09:36 I did choose that. You know, the school was okay. Friends were okay.

00:09:43 I don't really have that many, how would I say, highlight stories from that period.

00:09:51 At the end of the teenage years, let's say around 17 or 18, I got this travel bug. I got interested

00:10:02 in traveling. So I occupied myself with that. I did travel a bit in Europe and came to the States.

00:10:10 So yeah, I got into university. That continued.

00:10:16 And what about friendships and dating over the course of your teenage years?

00:10:29 I did not date in my teenage years. I think my first girlfriend was around when I was 18.

00:10:36 Yeah. Friendships were, you know, I had long time friends from school and from my neighborhood.

00:10:45 All of us were pretty, I think that the expression is latchkey kids, right?

00:10:54 You have the freedom to kind of roam around and explore and make friends. So I had pretty

00:10:59 diverse friends because I had different interests. I had my photography friends, traveling friends. I

00:11:08 had people that are interested in computers. But the funny thing is that I was the only kind of

00:11:17 link between these people. These people would not hang with each other. Or even if they met,

00:11:24 let's say for my birthday, they would kind of stick together with their crowd. So I could

00:11:29 definitely kind of blend with different people easily.

00:11:32 All right. And how did your first dating relationship go?

00:11:41 Well, this was when I was traveling. I met this girl in the same kind of camp that we were staying

00:11:49 with at and we clicked right away. I must say I would say that she was more interested in me.

00:11:56 I did like her, but I was not looking for a relationship. Actually, I was kind of

00:12:01 busy. I was in my own mind exploring. I was interested in girls, but she was kind of more

00:12:08 outgoing than I was. So we dated there for like several weeks and then we tried kind of to have

00:12:17 a relationship once we got back to our home countries. But of course, that didn't work.

00:12:21 So I got that ended pretty soon after. Later on, again, this is interesting. Again,

00:12:33 after when I was traveling, I'm just talking about kind of more significant relationships,

00:12:38 not the things or whatever. So I was in a relationship with a girl for four months

00:12:44 here in the States. And then we again went back to our home countries and then came back again

00:12:53 to States for another four months. It was kind of a work program. So we were we knew that we were

00:12:59 going to come again to the same place. So that was I would say that was my first big relationship.

00:13:06 That one and the same way like we I think I got this one. I understood that it's not going to

00:13:15 lead anywhere because neither one of us was willing to, you know, move to other person's country. So

00:13:26 and how many how many girls did you date before you met your wife?

00:13:30 Can you define dating? Like where is the cutoff? Like,

00:13:38 well, let's say how many girls did you sleep with before you met your wife?

00:13:41 Say about 13, 15, something like that.

00:13:47 And were most of those I assume most of those are fairly short term relationships?

00:13:55 Most of them. Yes. This relationship that I just spoke about was total like eight months.

00:14:02 And then I was in a relationship with a girl in my home country for about three years.

00:14:07 And that was the longest relationship before my wife. Yeah.

00:14:13 And what happened to the three year relationship?

00:14:17 Well, that ended actually when I got here to the US for the last time in 2015.

00:14:25 Oh, moving around. So it all becomes long distance, right?

00:14:29 Right. Right. We had different plans. We were, you know, thinking about

00:14:36 living somewhere else, but things happen.

00:14:44 All right. And then where did you meet your wife?

00:14:46 Here, here in the US. So I got here in, let's say, June. And then I realized that she also got here

00:14:57 a couple of months earlier than me. But we met in August, let's say. So we were supposed to attend

00:15:08 the same meeting. And that meeting never happened. Something like nobody showed up to that meeting.

00:15:14 And I was at the location. Nobody was there. So I left. But then I got the message from her

00:15:21 asking me about the same thing. How come this didn't happen? Blah, blah. So we started chatting

00:15:28 and everything was OK. And I think back then I made an inappropriate joke. It was a joke that

00:15:35 did not land well. So we kind of stopped talking maybe for a month. And then randomly a month later,

00:15:43 I got a message. She's asking me if I wanted to go to this event that happens once a month or so.

00:15:50 So I didn't have anything planned for that day. So I said, OK, why not? So we then we met in person

00:15:58 and we clicked and it went from there. Actually, it went pretty fast because so we met in person.

00:16:07 We met in August. And then she moved into my place in November for Halloween.

00:16:14 And then we got married in January. Yeah. It was pretty fast.

00:16:22 Why do you think, I mean, you said you made an inappropriate joke.

00:16:26 Was it a joke that she also found inappropriate or just, you know, like not politically correct

00:16:31 kind of joke? No, it's funny because I don't remember of that joke and neither does she.

00:16:36 But I think I wanted to be funny, but it didn't land at all. Like she didn't comment on it.

00:16:42 I'm not even sure if it was like a joke or whatnot, but we just suddenly stopped communicating for a

00:16:48 month. And then I already said, you know what, how it happened. Did she I mean, did she say why

00:16:56 she got back in contact with you? I'm not saying she should or shouldn't have, obviously. I'm just

00:17:03 I'm just curious what she would say. Right. I mean, I don't remember her explaining that,

00:17:09 but I kind of understand because both of us were busy at that time because we were pretty new in

00:17:14 the country. You know, she was, I guess, you know, with her parents and moving around and

00:17:19 had a busy day today and me as well. I was working. So I had a pretty busy schedule. So I didn't

00:17:26 really I almost didn't pay attention. I was like, OK, this girl is not replying back. OK, I'm

00:17:33 you know, never mind. I have other things to do.

00:17:35 But you must have left some kind of an impression that she called you back a month later. Right. So

00:17:45 do you know what the impression was that? I think our conversations were pretty lighthearted. We

00:17:53 were joking. We were sharing memes. We were talking about our experiences because this website was

00:18:02 connecting travelers, you know, connecting people who are kind of always traveling. So she was in

00:18:07 the same she had the same interests. So I guess that's that was like a common interest for us.

00:18:13 It kept us connected. All right. So what was she attracted to you about?

00:18:27 Well, maybe that's a better question for her, but I was I was then very young. I was 25. I was

00:18:34 full of life. I was maybe exciting. I would probably that's probably the right expression, exciting.

00:18:40 Maybe new. I was we talk about, of course, about this light topics, but we would touch up on

00:18:55 serious issues. And maybe what I was saying at that moment, what kind of resonated with her.

00:19:01 And back then I was I was into your book on truth, the tyranny of illusion.

00:19:08 And I had I had that one translated to Serbian, actually. So I was telling her about this and

00:19:15 she liked it. You know, she liked the idea that honesty is the way to go. It's,

00:19:22 you know, it's the good policy. So I think she also needed kind of

00:19:27 uncertainty in life, but she needed more truth. That's the right way to put it. And rules or

00:19:38 something. And how much did physical attraction play into your relationship?

00:19:47 With her or with the let's say with her. Right. Well, she's attractive for sure that that

00:19:56 attracted me. I will not I'm not going to lie about that. But she was other things as well.

00:20:02 I could tell that she's, you know, smart, intelligent. I could say that she's caring.

00:20:12 You know, she was open to to these ideas. She was. Yeah, she seemed fine to me. And physical

00:20:19 attraction wise, she's attractive. I believe I'm attracted to. So that's like a that's OK.

00:20:27 OK, and but and so the reason I'm asking this is that she when did she move out?

00:20:38 For Halloween. So like a day after or day before Halloween, I forgot.

00:20:43 I'm sorry. That is November. So when did she just move out with you?

00:20:48 No problem. She moved out like 10 days ago. OK. Right. So.

00:20:53 Do you think my wife would ever move out because I'm bald?

00:20:59 No. Right. Because she knows that, right? This is I didn't hide it with a toupee or something,

00:21:07 right? Right. Right. So she moved out because there's something that she was there for that

00:21:16 no longer is true. Right. Like, I mean, I'll give you give you an example. Right. So.

00:21:22 If someone is attracted to you because you are very handsome, right, is really,

00:21:32 really good looking guy. Right. So somebody is really attracted to you because you're super

00:21:35 good looking. Well, what happens is that level of physical attraction tends to fade over time.

00:21:42 Right. Or certainly if she doesn't like you as a person, as much as she likes how you look,

00:21:47 then what's going to happen is she is going to end up less attracted to you. So that's not going to

00:21:53 last. Does that sort of make sense? Yes. Right. So something must have changed.

00:22:00 In that. She. Doesn't like something that she used to like. Right. So I'm sort of that's why

00:22:10 I sort of ask about why she was. Very much keen on on on you at the beginning. Right. So keen that

00:22:18 she moves in in a couple of months, you get married a couple of months later. So that's the question.

00:22:22 Right. And so what was she attracted to? Because whatever she was attracted to must have changed.

00:22:29 Right. Right. So what's a good question? Yeah, that's a good question.

00:22:36 I mean, it's hard for me to to to tell. Maybe I'm blind to it, but maybe this would be a better

00:22:49 question for her, because I think when our relationship, you know, in first years, our

00:22:54 relationship were good. Or maybe our issues were not that prominent yet or we kind of were not

00:23:05 resolving them on the spot. But. Our inability to resolve issues had caused this, I would say.

00:23:15 Now, I understand your question that there is something that was there in the relationship,

00:23:20 but it's not there anymore. So that's why she left. I could not tell what that is, unfortunately.

00:23:26 OK, let me let me ask you this, because this we have information on. So what was attractive to you

00:23:35 that became less attractive over time? What was more attractive to you at the beginning

00:23:39 that became less attractive to you over time? Well, I liked her spontaneity. Like she was very

00:23:48 kind of. Receptive to not having like a strict plan, we could have just the important thing was

00:23:59 just to get together and then we would spend our day. You know. We will find out how to spend it

00:24:07 nicely so it did not have to be structured, it would not have to be. It was fun, I would say

00:24:12 that. So I would say she kind of turned less fun with time, like she demanded more. Organized time

00:24:22 or. Rules. Things like that. Now, was that more true after you got married or after you became

00:24:30 parents? Somewhere in between, after we got married, for sure. But somewhere in between,

00:24:37 because it did not happen overnight. But they were we are definitely different people in how we

00:24:45 plan our time and everything else. So she's more she's definitely more rigid in her

00:24:52 time management. And yeah. Then I'm OK with kind of adjusting plans if it need be or if something

00:25:03 pops up. I'm not too invested on doing certain things in a certain time or those things exactly

00:25:10 or in a way. So I would say that's also where the conflict may have come from.

00:25:17 Yeah, that seems like kind of thin soup in terms of like, well, she used to be more spontaneous.

00:25:24 Now she's less spontaneous. Therefore, the marriage is over. Like that's not that doesn't

00:25:30 seem like much of a basis. It's not like, well, but she became a drug addict, right? Or she had

00:25:36 an affair with a football team or like. So I'm sort of trying to follow what happened

00:25:42 with your relationship. Right. So because look, if you let's say this is the general theory of

00:25:48 relationships, I think it makes sense. So if you are genuinely yourself and she is genuinely herself,

00:25:54 like no bullshit, no chameleon, no cover ups, no pretending to be something you're not.

00:26:01 If you're genuinely who you are and then someone falls in love with you,

00:26:06 well, you you you can't stop being who you are. I mean, you can't stop being authentic, right? I

00:26:13 mean, I guess you could get a brain tumor or something, but in the normal course of things,

00:26:17 you are who you are. Like my wife is a better version even of who I met and who I met was

00:26:23 pretty great. Right. She hasn't changed fundamentally. I haven't changed fundamentally

00:26:27 because we just were who we were when we met. And so if you meet and there's such a strong

00:26:33 attraction that you move in within a couple of months and you then get married a couple of months

00:26:41 after that, right? Like August to January, right? With with the stopover in Halloween of moving in

00:26:47 then and then she ends up moving out 10 days ago, then someone was faking something

00:26:55 at the beginning. Someone had like, I'll give you a sort of another example that hopefully will be

00:27:03 a bit more vivid. So let's say that I go into business with a guy named Bob and the reason

00:27:09 I bring all the skills, but he brings a million dollars of investment money, right? He says,

00:27:13 I got a million dollars of investment money and all of that. Right. So we get into business, right?

00:27:17 Now, if then I stopped doing business with Bob, it's most likely because it doesn't turn out,

00:27:26 it turns out he doesn't have the million dollars, like he's just lying about it.

00:27:30 So then we break up because you both were expecting a benefit from each other that was

00:27:36 going to last a lifetime, but that benefit didn't last a lifetime, which means that the benefit you

00:27:41 were expecting wasn't real. So for instance, if you have a temper, but over the first, you know,

00:27:50 six months of the relationship, you choke back your temper, you pretend to be more easygoing,

00:27:56 and then when you move in together or you get married or something like that,

00:28:01 because you haven't really dealt with your temper, you've just bitten it back,

00:28:06 then your temper is going to start to come out. And then she's like, whoa, this isn't what I

00:28:11 signed up for. And it could be the other thing too. One of the most common things is physical

00:28:17 attractiveness, right? Like you both think each other are very sexy and you have a lot of sex and

00:28:23 you bond on that. But then what happens is you don't hugely love each other's personalities

00:28:29 outside of the physical attraction. I'm not saying this is the case with you guys. I'm

00:28:32 just saying this is a common one, but something has to have changed, right?

00:28:37 Well, she told me that a couple of days ago, she told me that she doesn't feel not safe.

00:28:45 I need to see that message again. She told me that she's not

00:28:49 safe, but protected or she doesn't feel understood. She would also, I'm sure she would say about this

00:29:01 temper. Yeah, she said that she's been on the brink of tears for a while, like every day, and

00:29:07 that is not acceptable for her. But I understand this, but I'm also bringing up my issues, because

00:29:16 I tell her that I also am dealing with weird things, but I'm not kind of dumping it all on her.

00:29:25 My temper is not explosive. I would be annoyed. I told her many times that when she tells me

00:29:33 again and again, the same thing, it's kind of really hard to deal with. It's really annoying.

00:29:39 I'm really getting tired of saying the same things. I'm tired of using the same sentences

00:29:45 to explain. So I think that kind of caused us to stop talking.

00:29:53 Okay, sorry, there's way too much information coming past here. It's like I can't drink a

00:29:58 river. I can drink a bottle, I can't drink a river. So let's just break it down a little.

00:30:03 Look, I appreciate the information. I'm just telling you that I can't do it all at once.

00:30:07 So you said there's two things. She doesn't feel safe and she doesn't feel understood.

00:30:11 Is that right? Right. I can maybe find the message.

00:30:14 Sure, yeah, take your time. Because it was over text.

00:30:18 Okay. Yeah, I cannot relax next to you. I don't feel safe next to you.

00:30:47 I'm tired and disregarded, disrespected. I feel that I annoy the shit out of you.

00:30:52 We're different and I'm not accepted by you. There's like a whole wall of this text.

00:30:58 Okay, so she doesn't feel relaxed. She doesn't feel safe. She doesn't feel secure.

00:31:04 So why do you think she doesn't feel relaxed around you or she doesn't feel safe around you?

00:31:15 Oh, that's a good question. I think lately this was maybe accelerated because I'm dealing with

00:31:23 a lot of stress at work too. And I'm really short of time.

00:31:29 I know. See, dude, I'm asking you about her, not you. We'll get to you, I promise.

00:31:34 Maybe because I...

00:31:35 But I'm asking you about her and you said, well, but I'm dealing with a lot of stress at work and

00:31:39 so on. So, and listen, you can understand what someone's criticisms are of you without agreeing

00:31:48 with them. So I'm not asking whether you agree with her. I'm just asking why doesn't she feel

00:31:54 safe? Like she might be paranoid of the color blue and you accidentally wore a blue t-shirt

00:32:00 and then she doesn't feel safe around you because you wore a blue t-shirt. Now that's not

00:32:05 particularly rational, but at least we'd know the cause. Does that make sense?

00:32:09 Yes.

00:32:10 Okay. So why doesn't she feel safe?

00:32:12 Well, safe would be kind of a broad term. I would have to understand what she means by this, but

00:32:19 maybe not me not dedicating too much time for our relationship. We're just doing...

00:32:24 Nope. No, no. Then she would feel distant. She would feel like you're emotionally unavailable.

00:32:29 She would feel lonely. She says she doesn't feel secure or safe.

00:32:34 Right.

00:32:36 So in what way or what is she experiencing that is giving her a sense of danger or unease or

00:32:44 a lack of trust?

00:32:46 Maybe when she would like criticize or comment, like I would have this reaction that is not

00:32:56 good.

00:32:58 Okay. So what is your...

00:33:01 I would be annoyed.

00:33:02 Sorry. What is your reaction that was not good?

00:33:05 Well, I would be annoyed for sure, because it's the same thing that I've been hearing

00:33:12 for many times. And it's like when you hear it for 101th time, it's too much. It's like,

00:33:18 "We already dealt with this. Why are you bringing this up again?"

00:33:21 Well, hang on, hang on. Hang on. I'm sorry. Are you saying that it's already been dealt with and

00:33:30 she's bringing it up again?

00:33:33 If we have already discussed this and found a way to move forward, then if you bring it up again

00:33:43 the following day, what is happening? Why are we talking again about this?

00:33:48 Well, because she wants to talk again about it.

00:33:52 Right.

00:33:54 I mean, I sort of hate to say, "Who are you to tell her what she can't talk about?"

00:34:01 But if she says, "I don't feel safe because of X," and then the next day she doesn't feel safe,

00:34:06 isn't she going to bring it up again?

00:34:09 I mean, let me give you a silly example, right? So let's say you're really hungry.

00:34:12 You've been waiting for a half hour for your food in the restaurant.

00:34:15 And the waiter comes by. There's no food. And you say, "Can you go check on her food?"

00:34:23 Right. And then the waiter says, "Yeah, I'll go check on the food." And then he says, "Well,

00:34:27 the food is still coming," and so on. And then 20 minutes later, you still don't have your food,

00:34:32 and you bring up this with the waiter. And the waiter says, "Why are you bringing this

00:34:37 up again? We already talked about this." Well, what's the problem?

00:34:39 I understand this.

00:34:42 The problem is you still don't have your food.

00:34:44 Right. Right.

00:34:46 What was your reaction that she felt unsafe around?

00:34:57 You said annoyance, but what did that mean?

00:34:59 I think she would not feel comfortable to bring a difficult topic with me because it would not

00:35:10 result in a productive solution.

00:35:14 Oh my gosh, you're so abstract here. It would not result in productive solutions. What did you do?

00:35:20 What did you say that had her feel unsafe, like specifically?

00:35:25 Right. Well, I can tell you about the last thing that happened that caused all of this. I mean,

00:35:32 that not caused, but it was the last drop, I would say, before we stopped talking.

00:35:38 You want me to talk about that?

00:35:41 Sure.

00:35:42 So we were at her parents' house that weekend. Like we always do, every other weekend we go there.

00:35:52 So everything was fine. And then we got up and had breakfast, and then we went out to

00:35:57 walk with our son. He was in a stroller. So we went to a park and that was fine. And then

00:36:04 when on our way back, there's like two paths to come back to the house. And both of these paths

00:36:12 cross railroad crossing. So the first time we went on the one that she prefers,

00:36:20 sorry, but on the second one, it was kind of already getting hot. And she told me to

00:36:27 make a decision because we already kind of had a detour in the neighborhood. She told me,

00:36:33 "Okay, make a decision which one." And I chose one, which was actually the shorter one,

00:36:40 the one that she didn't like. And when she didn't realize, I think that at first,

00:36:46 but when she did realize it's the one she made a scene because, "Why are we here? Why are we

00:36:52 crossing on this one? This is not right." And I mean, she already asked me to make a decision.

00:37:00 I did. I chose the shorter one. And I think it was fine. There's nothing wrong with this crossing.

00:37:08 It's almost exactly the same as the other one, just doesn't have a traffic light. But

00:37:14 so we're crossing the street and she's talking about all this. And I'm like, "Okay, just please,

00:37:23 let's talk about this later. Just don't ruin our day now. Everything is fine. Why do you have to

00:37:31 bring this up right now?" And then she just wouldn't stop. She wouldn't stop. And then we

00:37:36 crossed it. And I said, "Okay, listen, why do you have to do this?" And I'm not too proud of myself,

00:37:42 but I said, "Why do you have to be a bitch right now? Our day is going fine. Why do you have to

00:37:47 spoil it?" For what? For nothing? For something so petty? And then she stopped talking and she just

00:37:59 was walking past her home. And I said, "Hey, I'm sorry that I said that, but I really,

00:38:12 again, I'm repeating myself. I made a decision. I would appreciate it if you don't make an issue

00:38:22 out of a small thing." And she said, "Okay, you made a point. It's enough." And then I said, "Oh,

00:38:29 are you telling me this is enough? I can decide when it's enough and when it's not." And then

00:38:35 from that point on, we did not speak much. She got home. We got back to her parents' home.

00:38:41 And then I actually left early. I came back to our home and I just needed to kind of cool down

00:38:49 because my day was already ruined. All of our days are ruined because of this. And then it was

00:38:58 Sunday, so I'm going back again into a stressful situation. For the whole week, I just needed a

00:39:04 relaxing day. Anyways, in the following week, I did approach her back. I tried to kind of

00:39:15 mitigate the situation and it kind of worked until the next weekend when we went there again.

00:39:21 She told me, "I haven't forgiven you about the last Sunday." But to me, that was kind of

00:39:31 almost offensive. Like, "What do you mean, 'forgiven me'? You caused it. I snapped."

00:39:42 But if you didn't cause it, we wouldn't be here. I don't feel that I was at fault

00:39:52 in that situation. So from that point on, we just truly stopped talking. We came back to our home.

00:39:59 We didn't speak for days. And then several days later, she asked me, "Okay, why don't you talk to

00:40:06 me? Why don't you feel like looking at me?" And I told her what I felt. I said that I cannot bring

00:40:15 myself to do it because I was really upset and stressed out and hurt. I just couldn't do it.

00:40:25 And I didn't have much to say that I haven't already said. And then she said, "Okay,

00:40:35 I think I should move out for three or four months to my parents." And I said, "Okay,

00:40:42 you are free to do whatever you want. But if you do that, you and I are done. I cannot be living

00:40:52 like this." So that weekend, her parents came and picked her stuff and everything.

00:41:02 >> I'm sorry, her parents came and what? >> Her parents came and helped her move

00:41:12 a majority of things. And yeah, the interesting thing to me is that neither one of them

00:41:21 ever called me or texted me or anything. They never said anything,

00:41:26 which was really kind of eye-opening to me. So after she moved out,

00:41:34 I tried every other day to go and see my son. And she was not there.

00:41:41 I would just usually just... Her mom would give me him and I would spend some time with him and

00:41:50 I would give him back. Yeah, that was the last week. >> How old is your son?

00:41:56 >> He is 20 months old.

00:41:59 Hello? >> Yes, okay, sorry. Is there more that you want to add? >> No.

00:42:10 >> Okay, so help me understand. So back to the walk near your wife's parents' place. So one of

00:42:21 the paths leads to a train track that doesn't have a crossing. One of them leads to a train track

00:42:26 that does have a crossing. Is that right? >> No, both of them have a pedestrian crossing.

00:42:32 It's just one of them is controlled by a traffic light for other traffic, such as cars and whatnot.

00:42:38 >> Oh, so nothing to do with trains, is that right? It's just one only has a stop sign and

00:42:43 one has a traffic light, right? >> Right, but they both go over the

00:42:48 railroad, over the rails. >> Okay, okay. So I'm sorry, I'm just trying to sort of fathom this.

00:42:56 So, but there's no stop sign for a train, right? >> No, the stop sign is for the incoming traffic,

00:43:06 such as cars and people. >> Okay. >> The thing is why she doesn't prefer,

00:43:14 I mean, why she prefers one over the other is really not her thought. It was her mom's

00:43:20 idea that this one is very dangerous and this one is not because of that traffic light. But

00:43:28 I fail to understand how is that different because if the train is coming, both of them have this

00:43:35 poles coming down. I forgot the name for that in English, right? Both of them have the same

00:43:41 exact signs and these bars preventing you from going. So if the train was coming, you would know.

00:43:51 >> Right, that's correct. So there is literally no difference between these two. And this one is

00:43:57 more close to her house. It makes sense to go to that one. But I think this is not really maybe

00:44:06 the true reason. This is just like an excuse why to stop talking and to make a scene. I don't know.

00:44:14 >> Well, I mean, that was the immediate cause, right? But what, I mean, you did end up calling

00:44:23 her a bitch, right? >> I did, yes. >> And then she said, "I'm not done with this topic." And you said,

00:44:34 "I'm the one who decides when we're done with the topic." Is that right? Not you. >>

00:44:39 No, I said it because throughout the day, I mean, always, she is the one who always wants to

00:44:48 have things done her way. So when she, after this conflict, she told me when to stop speaking.

00:44:55 For me, that was also very, you know, not good. Like I did not like that. So I told her, "Okay,

00:45:02 so now you want to control even when I need to stop talking? I mean, this is just too much." >> No,

00:45:08 sorry. Earlier, I mean, sorry, earlier, unless I misunderstood something, you did say at some

00:45:13 point that you decide when a topic is done, not her, right? >> I said, "I will not let you say

00:45:24 when I should stop talking, when I'm done talking. Okay, I'm done when I'm done." Like, she expected

00:45:30 me to stop talking after she said, "Okay, you're done. Okay, that's, you know, stop. It's enough."

00:45:37 Like, what do you mean? Maybe I have something else to say. Why not? You're going to tell me

00:45:42 now I should not, you know, we're done and I should not say what I have to say. That makes no sense.

00:45:48 >> Well, but aren't you also telling her when she should be done with the topic by saying,

00:45:55 "Don't bring this up again. We already talked about this." I'm sorry, I'm trying to sort of

00:45:58 see how this is not the same as what you do. I'm probably missing something. >> No, no, it's valid.

00:46:02 >> So, you're both kind of telling each other to shut up, right? >> You're right, yes.

00:46:10 >> Okay, all right. And you feel that yours is justified and hers is unjustified.

00:46:15 Like, you telling her to shut up is because she keeps bringing the same topics over and over again,

00:46:27 but her telling you to shut up is a violation of your right of free speech and a violation of your

00:46:34 conscience and integrity or something like that. >> You spotted that pretty fast. Like, I did not

00:46:45 see it this way, but that sounds true. Yes. >> Okay, and so then after you called her a

00:46:52 bitch, you then apologized. And I mean, it's a pretty fatal error in apologies to insert the

00:47:01 word "but." "I'm sorry, but," right? And if I understood this correctly, you said, "I'm sorry,

00:47:07 but you provoked me." >> Yes, because I repeatedly kept asking her, "Please,

00:47:16 don't ruin our day right now. I'm having this Sunday off. I've been working Saturday, too.

00:47:22 You know, going from there to my work. Like, I was under so much stress, and I'm asking for a day,

00:47:29 you know, where I'm not. I'm just enjoying with my family, and she brings something insignificant

00:47:35 to a, like, much higher level. And I'm asking her to stop, and she just wouldn't. And I was like,

00:47:40 "Okay, why do you have to do this? Like, why are you like this right now?" I just did not...

00:47:45 >> No, I get it. I get it. So, but you called her a bitch, and it was kind of her fault, right?

00:47:49 >> Yes. >> Okay. So, if you apologize for something,

00:47:54 then you have to take ownership and be responsible for it, right? And if you blame the other person,

00:48:00 you're not really sorry. You're just saying it's your fault that we had this problem, right?

00:48:04 >> I really wish I didn't call her a bitch. I just wish that word didn't come out, because

00:48:09 that is something that is against me in this situation, and I think that this situation

00:48:17 could have been much easier resolved. But now it cannot be resolved because I called her a bitch.

00:48:24 >> No, that's not true. That's not true. That's not true. You can resolve things, even if you

00:48:32 say something pretty terrible to someone. You can resolve things, but you can't resolve them

00:48:36 by blaming them for your bad behavior, right? >> Right.

00:48:40 >> So, yeah. So, I mean, you have to take 100% responsibility, in fact, 200% responsibility

00:48:49 for your own bad behavior, right? I mean, she... >> I do say, I am sorry.

00:48:58 >> Sorry, go ahead. >> I am sorry that I called her a bitch,

00:49:04 but I still think that I'm not wrong in this whole situation, in the sense that me choosing

00:49:11 this path after she asked me to choose a path, that now I should be sorry about that as well.

00:49:17 Like, I don't think I was wrong there, no. >>

00:49:21 How much different was this path in terms of how long it would have taken you to get back

00:49:28 to your in-laws' place? Like, 10 minutes, an hour? What is the difference?

00:49:31 >> I would say 10 minutes. Like, maybe the distance between this one and the other one is,

00:49:35 like, 150 meters. >> So, you kind of blew up your marriage

00:49:42 over 150 meters difference in a walk, and yet you call your wife petty.

00:49:46 >> Well... >> I'm trying to sort of follow here. It wasn't

00:49:51 like you were holding off the Luftwaffe with a single ACAC gun, right? You weren't, like,

00:49:56 defending the world from space aliens. It was a difference of 150 meters in the walk, right?

00:50:02 >> Well, in this case, yes. But there are so many situations throughout the day when it's, like,

00:50:11 when it's expected from me to always be not petty, always to be the better person. And, like,

00:50:18 I also feel disregarded. >> No, no, no. Listen, listen. Hang on,

00:50:25 hang on, hang on. Okay, you're a very smart guy, and you're a very eloquent guy, but you can't

00:50:32 pull that one on me. I'm not saying you're trying to, but you're trying to pull a little conch

00:50:36 up here on me. I say this with all due respect and affection. So, hang on. So, what you're saying is,

00:50:42 my wife was being petty, right? And then I say, well, I mean, you basically blew up your marriage

00:50:48 over a 150-meter difference in a walk, right? And then you say, oh, no, but it's all these bigger

00:50:54 issues and longer issues. It's been going on forever and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

00:50:59 But that's true for your wife as well, right? So, you can't say, well, she was just being petty

00:51:04 because it was only about 150 meters. And then when I point out that you're being equally petty,

00:51:08 say, no, no, no, but it's part of a much larger pattern, right? Because that's true for her, too.

00:51:13 >> But Stefan, if the last drop spills, you know, the water from a cup, are you blaming really the

00:51:22 last drop or all the drops that came before that? It's like... >> That's true for your wife as well.

00:51:27 Because you said, well, my wife would just wouldn't accept my decision on this day.

00:51:34 And then you portrayed your wife as really petty about all of that, right? But then,

00:51:39 and then I point out, well, you know, if it's only 150-meter difference, then you're kind of

00:51:42 petty, too, about this. And you say, no, no, no, it's a much larger issue. But that's been my whole

00:51:46 point. My whole point is that for your wife, it was a much larger issue. Like, it can't be a much

00:51:51 larger issue for you, but totally petty and just about the moment for your wife. Because it's true

00:51:58 for both of you, right? >> I'm still trying to process this, but how come we're just focusing

00:52:06 on the final one? You know, there are so many situations before this where I yield again.

00:52:11 >> Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on again. Why are we focusing on the final one? Because I asked

00:52:16 you for some examples, and you said, well, I'm going to tell you about the final one.

00:52:20 So the reason why we're focusing on the final one is because you wanted to focus on the final one,

00:52:28 and you're in control of the information you provide to me.

00:52:30 So I say, we can talk about any color you want, and you say, well, I want to talk about blue.

00:52:37 And then 10 minutes later, you say, well, why on earth are we talking about blue? It's because

00:52:41 you chose to talk about blue. You chose to talk about the final one. Again, I don't mean this in

00:52:45 any negative way. I'm just telling you why we're talking about this. >> Well, you know, I just told

00:52:51 you about the most recent one, you know, the final one. But I could bring up other examples when

00:52:58 this similar situation happened, when one of us got disregarded and it did not feel right. But

00:53:04 also, like, if you now ask me to kind of bring more topics, I would have to sit and think,

00:53:12 you know, because I really, there is something in me that kind of keeps-- >> Wait, I'm sorry,

00:53:17 I haven't asked you to bring up more topics. What do you mean? >> No, no, I said if you did.

00:53:22 >> Well, but I haven't. >> I understand. I understand. >> So what you're doing is you're

00:53:28 saying, well, I want to talk about more topics to defend that I wasn't being petty. But here's

00:53:33 the problem. If you bring up more topics that show you weren't being petty and it wasn't about

00:53:39 the 150 meters on this walk by your in-laws' house, if you bring up a hundred more instances

00:53:46 that say, but this is part of a larger pattern, right? Then it's also part of a larger pattern

00:53:53 for your wife. In which case, you can't say to your wife, you're being petty about nothing and

00:54:00 ruining the day. Because what you do is you say, when you're telling the story to me or when you're

00:54:05 telling the story to yourself or the way you're treating your wife, is you're saying, it's one

00:54:09 stupid little walk. It doesn't matter. It's unimportant. Don't ruin the day, right?

00:54:16 But then when I point out, well, if it's stupid, petty and unimportant, just take the other walk.

00:54:21 You say, no, no, no. But for me, it's part of a much larger pattern that is important.

00:54:25 But you can't say to your wife, this walk is only about today. It's unimportant and it doesn't

00:54:34 matter. But then when I point out you're being petty, say, oh, no, but it's part of a much larger

00:54:40 issue that's been going on for a long time. Because that's saying that your wife has no

00:54:45 larger issues and everything that she complains about is just in the moment. But then when I

00:54:50 point out that you're complaining about things, you say, no, no, no. It's part of a much larger

00:54:54 pattern, right? If it's part of a larger pattern for you, it's part of a larger pattern to her.

00:55:00 In which case, it's not just about a walk. It's not just about one thing, right? So I'm happy to

00:55:06 talk about the patterns. I'm just pointing out that what you've done is you said to your wife,

00:55:12 your concerns are petty, irrelevant and unimportant. But my concerns are part of a

00:55:19 much larger pattern that's really important. Your concerns, my wife, are just about 150 meters of

00:55:27 road. My concerns about big long-term patterns in the relationship. No, I hear you.

00:55:42 So I'm perfectly happy to hear about the long-term patterns in the relationship.

00:55:51 I am. But this is why it went so badly that day. You were being, and I'm not saying this is

00:55:58 conscious or willed or anything, but you're being kind of hypocritical when you say,

00:56:03 your issues are petty and insignificant. My issue is about exactly the same thing,

00:56:08 a part of a much larger and deeper pattern. You're crazy for being upset

00:56:13 about this 150 meters. I'm totally sane and rational for being upset about these 150 meters.

00:56:22 Because for you, it's only 150 meters. For me, it's this big, giant pattern of dysfunction or

00:56:26 whatever, right? But you can't have it both ways, right? It can't be that for her, it's only about

00:56:32 one thing. For you, it's about a hundred things. Because for her, it's about a hundred things too,

00:56:36 I guarantee it. Anyway, so if you want to talk about the other patterns or other conflicts...

00:56:40 I agree. I agree with you that this makes what you're saying make sense. But I think for me,

00:56:47 why it was upsetting to me that much, I mean, we could have walked, you know, 150 meters and

00:56:52 the 150 meters the other way. No problem. I mean, it's hot, but whatever. But I think what caused me

00:56:58 some disturbance is that just before that, like five minutes before that, she asked me to choose

00:57:05 the way to go home. I chose it. And then she got upset by what I chose. Like, if you were so

00:57:15 explicitly for the other one, the other option, why would you put me in a situation where I choose

00:57:21 and then you disregard my choice? Like, you know, pick one. You want me to choose or you don't?

00:57:28 Don't pretend that you want me to choose. And then when I choose, you make a scene about it. Like,

00:57:33 how was I supposed to, you know, quote unquote, win? There is no winning in this situation.

00:57:39 You just, I'm always set up to fail. Okay. So we've gone from one instance where she changed

00:57:48 her mind to now I can never win. I'm always set up. It's always a trap and I'm always going to fail.

00:57:54 Sorry, can you say that again? So she says to you, you choose the way home,

00:58:01 you choose the way home. And then she says, that's dangerous, right? Right. Okay. So

00:58:09 I'm sure in your life, you've changed your mind about something, right?

00:58:12 Yes. You've said, I really want to go and see a movie. And then you get home, you have some pasta,

00:58:19 you sit on the couch and you're like, I'm actually kind of mellow here. I think I'm going to stay

00:58:23 home. Right. Yes. All right. So you've changed your mind over the course of your life, right?

00:58:31 Yes. Of course. So in this instance, your wife changed her mind. She said,

00:58:38 you choose the way home. And then she's like, Ooh, I kind of forgot that there's this railroad

00:58:42 crossing with no signs or whatever, only a stop sign. And therefore I don't want to do that

00:58:47 direction. I'd forgotten about that or something like that. Right. Right. So she changed her mind

00:58:54 as we all do. Right. She changed her mind. Now you've taken one instance where she changed her

00:59:02 mind to now it's a trap. You can't win. It always happens this way. You've turned it into everything.

00:59:10 Right. Right. That's how I feel actually. No, I get that. But let me tell you how she feels.

00:59:18 She feels that you make a catastrophe out of her changing her mind. He's a bully. I just,

00:59:29 I decided something different. And I said, I want to go home the other way. And then he blows it up

00:59:34 and ends up calling me a bitch. Like I'm not even, I'm tyrannized. I'm controlled. I'm bullied. I'm

00:59:39 not even allowed to change my mind because he's just going to get angry. He's going to call me

00:59:44 names and then he's going to blame me for calling me terrible names. And this happens all the time.

00:59:49 I'm bullied all the time. He's willing to go to these extremes to call me terrible names.

00:59:56 And this happens regularly and repetitively and I'm done with it. I've had enough.

01:00:00 So she can take one instance and turn it into everything as well. Right. So you take one

01:00:07 instance where she changes her mind, asks you what you want to do, and then disagrees with it.

01:00:13 I mean, come on, man. Have you never met a woman before? Come on. Have you never met a woman before?

01:00:19 Have you never met a woman who says, no, no, listen, come on. You say to a woman, we know this,

01:00:24 we're men, right? Man to man, man to man, father to father. You meet a woman and you date a woman

01:00:30 and then you say, where do you want to eat tonight? And she says, I don't know, you choose.

01:00:35 And then what do you say? You say, let's eat Indian. No, I don't feel like Indian.

01:00:39 That happens. That happens with us too. That happens.

01:00:41 Yeah, of course it does. Of course it does. Because we're men and women. And then you say,

01:00:46 okay, how about some Thai food? And she says, no, I don't, I don't. Thai food doesn't totally

01:00:50 agree with me. You say, okay, well, how about Chinese food? No, I don't like the MSG. Okay,

01:00:54 how about Greek food? Maybe, but we don't have any Greek food around that's close.

01:01:00 And you're like, look, if you're telling me you'll eat wherever I want to eat, and then every time I

01:01:06 suggest where are we going to eat? Come on, this is living with women, right?

01:01:10 Exactly. And that is driving me crazy, Stefan. We had exactly those conversations.

01:01:15 Why does it drive you crazy? It's kind of funny, isn't it?

01:01:19 If you delegate something to me, then let me take care of it. If you're truly delegating,

01:01:24 you're going to let me do it, you know, and stay on the side. Like, okay, I'm not,

01:01:28 you know, I'm not asking for blind following. No, no, no, that's a work thing, not a marriage thing.

01:01:35 That's a work thing. At work, if your boss says, you figure out how to solve the problem,

01:01:42 and then he micromanages you solving the problem, yeah, that's annoying. But this is

01:01:49 the comedians talk about this, right? It's not uncommon. I don't care, you choose where we go.

01:01:54 You choose what we do this weekend. Okay, here's what we're going to do this weekend. No,

01:01:58 definitely not. I don't really want to do that. Sorry.

01:02:00 And how is this okay? This is crazy, Stefan. This is not right. Why would you say you choose what

01:02:06 we do this weekend, and then when I do choose, you're disagreeing with everything? To me,

01:02:12 this is not some...

01:02:12 Because your wife has recently given birth to a real-life human being. Is she still breastfeeding,

01:02:19 or is that over?

01:02:20 Yeah, she's still breastfeeding.

01:02:22 Okay, so her hormones are all over the place. And, you know, you and I as men, we don't know.

01:02:28 Like, a man is a tank, a woman is a roller coaster. All right? Let's just be frank about this.

01:02:32 Right? No, we don't have hormonal changes.

01:02:35 Yes.

01:02:36 We're just like, we're the same thing, day after day after day after day, right? Maybe we're a

01:02:41 little more tired, maybe we're a little grumpy, maybe we get hangry, but we're just like a tank.

01:02:46 We don't know what it's like to be whipped up and down like the tail of a kite by your own hormones.

01:02:50 So, particularly when a woman is going through hormonal stuff, she doesn't know what she wants

01:02:55 to do, but she does know what she doesn't want to do, if it's presented to her. And you can get mad

01:03:03 about that if you want, but I mean, then you're just going to have to become gay, or date an

01:03:08 actual truck, or something like that. But, like, that's just, that's just life, isn't it? I mean,

01:03:14 and listen, it's not like, it's not like, it's not like women, it's not like women don't have

01:03:18 to put up with moodiness from us. Come on. You know, you come home, you're stressed to the max,

01:03:24 you're, you're, you're, you're tense, you're upset, and, and she's got a deal with that.

01:03:29 She didn't see all of the sources of your stress, she didn't follow you through the day at work.

01:03:33 So, she's had a real nice day breastfeeding your son, and playing with him, and, and doing some

01:03:38 housework, and some cooking, and she's had a really nice day. And you come in like the high-dressed

01:03:43 ogre Shrek of Doom, and she's got to manage that mood. So, this is just part of marriage, right?

01:03:49 That sometimes the other person has emotional states that are inconvenience, or whatever,

01:03:55 right? But that's, that's life, that's marriage. Sometimes you say, "Oh, I actually would prefer

01:04:03 to take the shorter route. I don't feel particularly comfortable with that train track." And listen,

01:04:08 you know, and I know that women go insane about the protection of babies and toddlers, right?

01:04:14 And, and it's a good thing they do, because if babies and toddlers were in the charge of people

01:04:21 like you and me, we'd misplace them on a regular basis. I put him down right by this, right by this

01:04:29 lion. I put him right here. I don't know where he's going. All I can find is, is one of his booties,

01:04:32 right? So, women are a little intense about the protection of babies and toddlers, and that's

01:04:42 just where she's at, right? And then there's the hormonal stuff. Maybe she had a bad night's sleep,

01:04:46 and she's just grumpy. Oh, come on. You and I know that you and I can sometimes be grumpy,

01:04:52 right? And difficult to deal with. Yeah, 100%. Right. So, sometimes she changes her mind.

01:05:03 Sometimes you're stressed and moody. Sometimes you're bad-tempered. Sometimes she's difficult

01:05:10 or oppositional, or something like that, right? But you can't demand perfection unless you display

01:05:16 perfection, and you and I and every other known human being on the planet do not display perfection,

01:05:21 right? You can be snappy. You can be moody. You can be stressed. You're not perfect. I'm not

01:05:26 perfect. She's not perfect. Welcome to planet Earth, right? But you have this seat of perfection.

01:05:37 I mean, isn't, doesn't it come from this a little bit, like vanity? Like,

01:05:42 well, I mean, you're moody, and I'm not. But you are moody, right?

01:05:49 How did you get that I come from the place of perfection?

01:05:53 That I'm... Because you don't criticize yourself. You only criticize others.

01:05:57 Okay. Right? Have you ever sat down with your wife and said, "Listen, I mean, I was really

01:06:03 stressed today. I was kind of snappy and kind of distant. And, you know, like, you're home

01:06:09 with our kid. I'm basically the major contact with adulthood and the outside world. And I just

01:06:15 haven't really been available to you. I've been consumed by stuff at work. That's not right. And

01:06:18 I'm really sorry about that. And I shouldn't be snapping, and I shouldn't be distant. And I've

01:06:22 got to find a way to shrug off the work stuff when I come home." Have you ever apologized to your wife

01:06:29 for being moody, for being a little difficult, for being distant, for being distracted, or for

01:06:35 being aggressive? Right? Without a "but." Just, you know, "I want to behave better. I want to do

01:06:40 better." Yes. You have? Yes. Okay, good. And has she apologized to you for some of her stuff?

01:06:47 Yes. Okay. Can I use "but"? Can I use a "but" here? Or no? You can do whatever you want.

01:06:55 Honesty is the key. Okay. So I'm going to use a "but" here. She did apologize.

01:07:04 But it's really, how to say, by her own words, she says that she cannot take criticism. She does

01:07:14 not take criticism well. So in order for me to criticize something, I really have to,

01:07:22 I don't know, find the proper way, choose words, you know, have to be a master of communication to

01:07:31 bring this up. I can just not come straight to the point and say, "What is, you know, what is kind of

01:07:38 not bothering me, but like, what is...?" I cannot just raise a red flag, "What's wrong?"

01:07:45 And like, for me, this, I understand this is partly because women are like this, but for me,

01:07:53 this is not, I don't find this cute or find it just, "Oh, the women are like this." For me,

01:08:00 it's incomprehensible. Like, why don't you focus more on the topic of the conversation than

01:08:06 the form? Why is it that we have to first discuss the form? Why we have to come to this alignment

01:08:13 of the form and then discuss the topic? I'm exhausted by the end of this, you know,

01:08:18 and we haven't even started the topic itself. Now we have to spend, you know, half an hour talking

01:08:25 about the way I said something, then what I said. It's exhausting. Okay, now did you know this about

01:08:31 your wife before you married her? Did I know what? Did you know that your wife

01:08:38 didn't like criticism before you married her? She told me that pretty early on. Yes, she did

01:08:45 tell me that. Okay, so you married her knowing that she didn't like to be criticized. Yes, yes.

01:08:54 Okay, so what are you complaining about? I'm sorry. You can choose any car in the lot. The

01:08:59 car you want comes in red. Okay, I'll buy the car. I hate that this car is red.

01:09:04 You chose her and you're saying that she, hang on, you're saying that she

01:09:11 gets mad at you. She offers you a choice. You make that choice and then she has a problem

01:09:22 with your choice. So you choose your wife knowing she doesn't like criticism and then you get mad

01:09:27 at her for something you chose. In other words, she's saying you can marry me or not but I don't

01:09:32 like criticism and then you marry her and then you're like I'm so angry that you don't like

01:09:36 criticism. You understand you're rejecting your choice about something a little bit more important

01:09:41 than 150 meters on a walk. See, you say well she gave me the choice. I chose and then she's upset

01:09:49 with my choice. Okay, you dated. This is why I asked how many women you dated. You slept with

01:09:54 13 women, whatever, right? And you chose this one, right? You chose this one. You chose seven percent

01:10:02 of the women you slept with you chose to marry. So you could have kept waiting. You could have

01:10:07 not dated anyone. You could have whatever, right? You chose this woman and then you're mad at your

01:10:13 own choice. You understand? Yes. That you're mad at her for rejecting your choice. She's mad at you

01:10:21 for rejecting your choice. You chose a woman who doesn't like criticism. Well, hello. Okay, true.

01:10:27 So you don't get to blame her when she was up front. She wasn't lying about this. She didn't

01:10:33 pretend to take criticism well for the first six months. She said right up front I'm very raw about

01:10:38 criticism probably because she had mean parents in this area or something like that. She said I

01:10:42 don't like to be criticized. You're going to have to be pretty nimble in your criticisms of me. Okay,

01:10:48 so she told you that ahead of time. So that's the deal. You don't get to pick and choose after you

01:10:53 choose, right? Yeah, you're right. But my line of thinking was that, okay, if it's a small issue,

01:11:06 it can be corrected. If you see that it's an issue and it's easily corrected, it's doable,

01:11:15 why wouldn't you? Because everything's easily correctable when it's not your issue.

01:11:19 But I corrected so many things, Stefan. I have done so much work on my part.

01:11:27 Wait, hang on, brother. Hang on just a single goddamn second here. Are you saying that calling

01:11:35 the mother of your child a bitch and completely denigrating her issues and then giving her a

01:11:41 fake apology, this is the vastly improved you? Okay, why was it fake apology? I am

01:11:50 truly sorry that I called her a bitch. No, because you said I'm sorry but you provoked me.

01:11:54 But you can drop, you can drop, if you have issues with fake apology, no problem.

01:12:03 So what you're saying is that, hang on, hang on, what you're saying is you vastly improved

01:12:07 to the point where you blow up at the mother of your child and you call her a bitch. That's you

01:12:12 after a significant amount of improvement, is that right? But here's the thing, if only I had not

01:12:20 said the word bitch, where was I wrong? What part was wrong? I still don't get it. Oh my god, man,

01:12:29 you really think that your wife is the one who's tough to criticize?

01:12:32 It does. How easy is it, hang on, how easy is it for me to criticize you? How open are you to being

01:12:40 criticized? I think I'm open, no? No, you're not. You're absolutely not. And again, I don't say this

01:12:47 with any negativity or hostility, I'm just pointing out the fact as I see it, right?

01:12:53 So we just had this whole 20-minute conversation about how you said the issue on the walk was one

01:13:00 tiny little thing that your wife should have ignored. And then when I point out it's a tiny

01:13:06 little thing that you also should have ignored, if that's the standard, you say no, no, no,

01:13:09 for me it's this big giant issue, right? It's been going on for years, right?

01:13:15 So even if you had not called her a bitch, you still have the attitude that conflicts are only

01:13:23 small and unimportant for your wife, but the exact same conflict is really big and essential and

01:13:28 important for you. That she should let it go because it's unimportant, but you should fight

01:13:34 to the death because it's super important. Like that's not just or fair or right, isn't it?

01:13:41 On which topic I'm fighting to the death because it's...

01:13:43 on which one? I wanted to talk about...

01:13:48 No, because it's about a 150-meter walk and because of that 150-meter walk difference of

01:13:53 opinion over the fact that she changed her mind, you called the mother of your child a bitch

01:13:59 because you didn't want to walk 150 extra meters.

01:14:03 Which is taking a... and you say, oh no, but it's because she asked me and then she disagreed. Yeah,

01:14:10 okay, so what? So she changed her mind. Get over it. You're a big boy. She changed her mind. She

01:14:15 said I had to change her mind, isn't she? She is. You didn't sign a contract in blood with Satan,

01:14:20 right? She just... I want to... you choose the walk. Oh, let's go this way. Oh, sorry, actually,

01:14:24 I really... I don't really want... Okay, yeah. So it's not a big issue. So why do you end up calling

01:14:30 your wife a bitch for something that's not a big issue? So you get angry at her

01:14:34 because it's such an unimportant issue, why ruin the day? But then you make it into a giant

01:14:39 important issue, not worth... not just ruining the day, but ruining your marriage.

01:14:43 Right? So this is the asymmetry. This is the difference, right?

01:14:49 No, I totally understand this, but...

01:14:54 Okay, so I was... in this situation, I was supposed to yield, right? And say, okay, let's do...

01:15:05 let's override this decision and then go for the other direction. Okay, no problem. Are you... hang

01:15:10 on. Are you right? Are you right when you say it was unimportant? You said about your wife,

01:15:16 it's unimportant which way we go home. It's not worth ruining the day over, right? Yes. Okay,

01:15:23 so then it's... if it's unimportant, then you should have just gone the way she wanted to go,

01:15:27 because it's unimportant, right? Doesn't matter. But I asked her many times, hey, please, let's not...

01:15:34 let's not make this a big issue, you know, and she just wouldn't drop it. And I guess we're always on

01:15:42 this brinksmanship, you know, and in this situation, neither one of us yielded, and that's how it

01:15:52 exploded to this. See, it's even in the words that you use. "Yield!" Like you're surrendering to some

01:16:00 warrior, so you're baring your throat in some gladiatorial combat.

01:16:04 The word I use is "gracious." You know, if someone in my life says, "Let's do this," and then they

01:16:12 change their mind, I'm not yielding, I'm not submitting, I'm not losing, I'm just being

01:16:16 gracious. Okay, we can go do that. Let me write that one. Because it's not important.

01:16:23 It's not important which path you take home. It's a 10-minute difference, right?

01:16:30 We can both agree that which path you took home on that day was not important, right?

01:16:34 Yes. Right. So if it's not important, then if she says, "You choose the way home,"

01:16:42 and you say, "Let's do this way," and she says, "Actually, no, I'd rather do that way," you say,

01:16:48 "Okay." Because it's not important, right? Right.

01:16:53 But you basically were snarling at her that she shouldn't get upset because it's not important

01:16:59 while you were hitting the roof and calling her names eventually, right? Right.

01:17:04 But you can be gracious. It doesn't matter, right?

01:17:12 Now, I can also tell you that it probably was a trap and you fell into it.

01:17:27 What happened that day that you were already upset with each other?

01:17:30 That day was kind of early on. I would say early afternoon. I got home the day before and I slept

01:17:45 a little bit in maybe, and the day had just started. We actually spent a pretty nice time

01:17:50 in the park. Everything was fine. And this was my only day off that week. I had a really crazy week.

01:17:56 So I was just looking forward to just enjoying it nicely. I was looking forward to spending time

01:18:03 with her. And then I was kind of angry that she would bring this up to such a level. I'm sorry.

01:18:12 Maybe I wasn't clear. What was she upset about with before you went on the walk? Was she upset

01:18:22 about you with something before you went on the walk? Maybe not just about something that happened

01:18:29 in the morning, but was she upset with you about how you were behaving? Maybe job stresses, maybe

01:18:35 absence, maybe emotional unavailability. Was she upset with you about something as a whole

01:18:40 before you went on the walk? I cannot think of anything in particular, but I was longer at work

01:18:50 those days. Maybe I was extra stressed. But I cannot think that she was...

01:18:54 So how long have you guys been together since you first met?

01:18:58 I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question.

01:19:05 How long have you been together?

01:19:06 Right. So eight years.

01:19:10 Eight years?

01:19:12 Yes.

01:19:13 Okay. So I guarantee you that your wife absolutely knows that giving you a choice

01:19:22 and then overriding your choice upsets you. She knows that, right?

01:19:26 Okay.

01:19:29 No, does she? I mean, either she doesn't know fundamental aspects of your personality after

01:19:34 lying with you and making a baby for eight years. Either she has no idea

01:19:41 how you work or what makes you upset, or she does know.

01:19:44 I hope she does because this is a repeating thing.

01:19:50 So she was upset with you about something,

01:19:55 and so she did a passive-aggressive thing. And this is common among women.

01:20:03 Happens with men too, but it's a bit more common among women. So she did a passive-aggressive

01:20:08 thing. Do you know what passive-aggression is? Do you know how it works?

01:20:13 Please help me.

01:20:14 Sure. So passive-aggression is when you're angry at someone

01:20:21 but you can't express it for whatever reason.

01:20:27 You want to dominate them, so what you do is you provoke them into bad behavior,

01:20:34 and then you win and you dominate them and you humiliate them.

01:20:38 So I think you're right in that it was a trap

01:20:47 because she's upset at you about something, maybe more than one thing, probably more than one thing.

01:20:54 She's upset about you with... she's upset with you about something.

01:20:57 And so she goes on this walk, she says, "You choose the way home," and then she says,

01:21:02 "I don't want to go that way." Now does she know that that's going to push a big red button in you?

01:21:06 Yeah.

01:21:08 Right. Now the reason that people become passive-aggressive around us

01:21:15 is we don't listen to their reasonable complaints.

01:21:19 Right, so if you don't... if your wife has an issue with you

01:21:31 and you don't listen to her, you minimize it, it's not real, it's not important, it doesn't matter,

01:21:37 well that doesn't make the upset go away, does it?

01:21:41 I mean you couldn't even make yourself not upset on that day, there's no way you could

01:21:48 make your wife not upset, certainly not by diminishing or ignoring or minimizing her

01:21:54 concerns, right? So she's mad at you but you don't listen. So how does that anger come out?

01:21:59 She pushes your buttons and you blow up and you call her a name and now she's in the right,

01:22:05 you're in the wrong, she's justified, she goes running and crying to mommy and daddy

01:22:09 who unfortunately for you don't like you. Like this is a whole other factor, right?

01:22:16 Which is you said the parents came by to pick up her stuff, they didn't even talk to you, right?

01:22:21 I was not there, I was not at home then.

01:22:24 Okay, but they haven't talked to you over the whole course of the breakup, right?

01:22:27 No, no, never, never, not a call.

01:22:30 So did you know that they don't like you and were probably counseling her to leave you?

01:22:35 Well I am aware that they are maybe, that they don't like me, yes, but I'm not sure if they,

01:22:44 yeah.

01:22:45 So they don't like you, right? Of course they don't because if they liked you then they would

01:22:51 sit down and try and help you as a couple work through this stuff for the sake of their grandson,

01:22:55 right?

01:22:56 Right, right.

01:22:57 So they really don't like you and your wife of course has been talking to her parents

01:23:03 complaining about you and what do her parents say?

01:23:05 Yeah, just come, come to us.

01:23:13 Yes, you should leave him, he's a bad guy, get out, right?

01:23:18 Right.

01:23:23 Now, when did you know they didn't like you?

01:23:27 Well, I didn't know they explicitly didn't like me, but early on, you know, I could understand

01:23:40 that they maybe had different expectations for her or maybe I was not up to their liking,

01:23:48 how to say this.

01:23:52 I understood that pretty early, but you know, what can I do?

01:23:59 No, I'm not marrying them, I'm marrying her.

01:24:01 Well, no, what do you mean you're not marrying them?

01:24:05 Of course you're marrying them.

01:24:06 Sorry, maybe that's different in the part of the world that you come from, but as far

01:24:11 as I understand it, in-laws basically say welcome to the family and you are marrying

01:24:16 them because you're spending every other weekend with them and they have a huge influence over

01:24:19 your wife.

01:24:20 Yeah, but this is pretty recent development, we were not really visiting them all that

01:24:26 often before we had the son.

01:24:28 And I don't want to speak too much on my wife's behalf, but she does not really have that,

01:24:37 how to say, great relationship with them either.

01:24:41 Like there's always, when we're there, there's always some kind of argument, you know, out

01:24:46 of blue and I'm like, what is it?

01:24:48 And then it's like nothing, for them it's almost like a normal way of conversation.

01:24:53 I don't think that they get along too well.

01:24:56 Okay, so your wife's parents seem to drive a lot of friction in your marriage, right?

01:25:03 I wouldn't say that.

01:25:06 I'm sorry, I thought you said that you would have conflicts every time you'd go over.

01:25:10 No, she would with her mom, for example.

01:25:13 Okay, and did this translate?

01:25:17 Hang on, did this translate into problems in your marriage, if your wife were having

01:25:24 conflicts with her mother?

01:25:25 Well, my wife would be, you know, upset and she would not be in the mood and she would

01:25:33 be, you know, crying and she would not, her day would be ruined for sure.

01:25:39 Right, which has a negative effect on you and on your son, right?

01:25:42 Yes, yes.

01:25:45 And would it be the case that most times she would go over to her parents' house that

01:25:49 she would end up in conflict or in tears or something would go wrong?

01:25:53 It would happen often.

01:25:58 I saw them, you know, arguing and again, like, I just couldn't understand it.

01:26:05 Like, why?

01:26:06 They speak different language, so I'm not sure what they were exactly talking about.

01:26:10 Well, that doesn't matter in particular.

01:26:12 What matters is that these are people who make the mother of your child cry on a regular

01:26:16 basis, right?

01:26:17 The regular basis is too much.

01:26:21 They're not fighting all the time, but like, they do have arguments.

01:26:25 I'm sorry, regular basis does not mean all the time.

01:26:28 Right, if I have regular bowel movements, that doesn't mean I live on the toilet, right?

01:26:34 Yeah, but like, even they don't fight daily, no, they don't fight daily.

01:26:40 Did I say daily?

01:26:42 I understood that word as a daily, no?

01:26:44 No, see, this is why you get into all these conflicts, is you substitute words for what

01:26:50 other people are saying, right?

01:26:51 This straw man, right?

01:26:52 Because you told me that often when you're over on weekends, there'll be a conflict,

01:26:57 right?

01:26:58 Right.

01:27:00 Okay, so it's not once a year, it's not twice a year, it's twice a month.

01:27:07 Like every third time we go, there is some drama, there is a big drama.

01:27:12 Okay, got it.

01:27:13 All right.

01:27:15 So, what's your job as the husband and the father?

01:27:24 Are you asking me?

01:27:29 That's a good question.

01:27:30 Yeah.

01:27:32 To provide for my family and protect them and...

01:27:35 No, that's it, provide and protect.

01:27:39 Okay.

01:27:39 So, your wife is exposed to negative elements on a regular, though not daily basis, that

01:27:47 makes her upset, makes her cry, is bad for your marriage, is bad for her parenting, is

01:27:52 bad for your son.

01:27:52 What's your job as the husband and the father?

01:28:00 To fix that, you know, provide, protect and make her feel safe.

01:28:10 It's to protect her, right?

01:28:14 Right.

01:28:16 I mean, if you had some friend who once or twice a month made your wife cry and ruined

01:28:25 your day, would you like that friend?

01:28:27 No.

01:28:29 If your wife had a boss who once or twice a month made her cry and ruined your day,

01:28:35 would you like her boss?

01:28:36 No.

01:28:38 If the boss who made her cry or the friend who made her cry said, "Hey, you guys should

01:28:43 come over for the weekend," what would you say?

01:28:45 No.

01:28:47 Right.

01:28:48 So, why didn't you take a stand against her parents?

01:28:58 I'm not sure.

01:29:00 I think maybe I was not strong enough to enforce that.

01:29:05 Well, hang on, you can't enforce things, right?

01:29:09 Right.

01:29:10 You can't enforce things.

01:29:12 But you can be very clear, and you can say something like, "I don't like your parents

01:29:21 because they make you cry."

01:29:22 Right, right.

01:29:25 "And I don't want to go there for the weekend.

01:29:26 I also don't like exposing my son to this level of drama once or twice a month.

01:29:32 It's not healthy.

01:29:34 So, I would like to help.

01:29:38 I mean, I'm happy to help with your parents.

01:29:40 You know, maybe you all can go to family therapy or find some other better way of communicating,

01:29:46 but I can't support this because I love you.

01:29:48 And if I love you, I can't also love somebody who's not in my life.

01:29:53 I can't also love somebody who makes you cry.

01:29:57 I can't love someone who hurts you and love you at the same time.

01:30:04 I want to protect you.

01:30:05 And I'm sure you don't, you know, you might say to her, "I'm sure you don't have any

01:30:09 love for my boss who, whatever, right, who makes me stressed or whatever, right, but

01:30:13 I want to protect you.

01:30:14 So, I don't like your parents right now.

01:30:17 I don't like that they yell at you.

01:30:18 I don't like that your mother makes you cry.

01:30:20 I don't like the level of conflict.

01:30:22 I don't like it at all.

01:30:23 I can't obviously tell you what to do, but I can tell you that, and now, of course, this

01:30:28 is a conversation you should have had before you got married and before you had a child,

01:30:32 right?

01:30:32 And before you have a child, you have to say, "We don't put our children in toxic

01:30:36 environments, right, any more than we would feed them lead paint, right?

01:30:39 We don't put them in toxic environments."

01:30:41 And you'd have to have that agreement, right?

01:30:43 And then you have the kid, and if her parents are toxic or whatever, right, then you say,

01:30:48 "Well, no, we can't, you, I can't tell you what to do."

01:30:52 "To go or not go, I'm not your ruler.

01:30:53 I'm not your lord and master.

01:30:55 I'm not your owner.

01:30:56 I can't prevent you from going, but I don't want to go because I don't want to support

01:31:03 people who make you cry, and I don't want to bow down to your father because I'm a father,

01:31:13 and it's my job to be strong to my family, not to bow down to his family, and I don't

01:31:18 want my son in that environment."

01:31:21 That's not right.

01:31:22 We don't have the right to expose him to that kind of dysfunction, right?

01:31:25 I don't want him to see his mother crying.

01:31:27 I don't want him to hear the raised voices.

01:31:29 I don't want the stress hormones to go into your breast milk and then into his body.

01:31:32 That's not, we don't have that right, right?

01:31:34 Absolutely, you're right.

01:31:38 And did it ever cross your mind to take a stand with regards to people who were, on

01:31:43 a semi-regular basis, if you like, hurting your wife?

01:31:48 We did actually speak about this topic many years ago, and the drama between them was

01:31:55 much stronger, much more frequent, but it never kind of created, nothing happened.

01:32:06 Because you didn't fight, they won.

01:32:09 But I didn't want to separate her from her parents.

01:32:13 Now her parents have separated her from you.

01:32:17 Do you understand what a battle this is?

01:32:18 You don't have a choice to not get involved in these fights.

01:32:21 So, well, I don't want to, first of all, you wouldn't, you'd just be having standards,

01:32:26 right?

01:32:27 You're just having standards.

01:32:29 I don't want to be around dysfunctional people.

01:32:32 I don't want you to be around dysfunctional people, but that's your choice.

01:32:34 And I sure as hell don't want my son to be around dysfunctional people.

01:32:36 You say, "Oh, well, I didn't want to cause any problems."

01:32:41 It's like, do you not think that her parents have now caused problems with her, that they're

01:32:44 not saying, "Oh, come on, like, go back, deal with it.

01:32:47 Let's all sit down.

01:32:48 Let's work through this.

01:32:49 You can't leave her.

01:32:50 You can't leave your husband.

01:32:51 You've been together for eight years.

01:32:52 You have a child together.

01:32:54 You have to sort this out for the sake of your child."

01:32:56 No, they're like, "Yep, we'll take her.

01:32:58 We'll get the stuff.

01:33:00 We're never going to talk to you again."

01:33:02 So the idea that you can avoid these fights by walking away, I don't understand it.

01:33:13 I'm honestly shocked with their reaction, I mean, by not at all talking to me, because

01:33:18 all this time we were fine.

01:33:21 We were okay.

01:33:22 We were not like, "Oh my God, best friends forever."

01:33:25 But things were fine between us.

01:33:28 But I'm really amazed that they didn't even—they were never interested to hear me at all.

01:33:35 Do you like her parents?

01:33:37 I like her dad, but I don't like her mom.

01:33:42 So you've got this good cop, bad cop thing, good parent, bad parent thing.

01:33:46 Does her dad intervene when she and her mom fight?

01:33:50 Does he calm them down?

01:33:52 Does he reason things through?

01:33:53 Does he say, "This is unacceptable.

01:33:54 We have a kid in the house.

01:33:56 It looks bad for her husband.

01:33:58 We can't do this."

01:33:59 Does he stand in and stand strong and intervene and make things right?

01:34:03 Yeah, but with delay.

01:34:06 He lets them dish it out, and then he says, "Okay, stop."

01:34:13 Okay, but does he solve the problem in the long run, or does he just play whack-a-mole

01:34:18 and deal with what's happening in the moment without ever changing the pattern?

01:34:21 The latter.

01:34:24 Okay.

01:34:25 Do you respect your father-in-law?

01:34:28 For the most time, yes.

01:34:36 Oh, dude.

01:34:38 How?

01:34:41 For example, he also works very hard to provide for his family.

01:34:45 He's a good guy.

01:34:48 He works hard.

01:34:49 He's there.

01:34:50 He's a good guy who just nuked your marriage, man.

01:34:52 What the fuck?

01:34:54 I don't understand your thinking.

01:34:55 Again, I'm probably missing something.

01:34:57 I'm happy to be corrected.

01:34:58 But this guy just participated in nuking your marriage, and he's a good guy?

01:35:03 He let it happen.

01:35:07 He didn't help.

01:35:08 No, he's not just letting it happen.

01:35:09 No, no, there's no such thing as letting it happen in your life.

01:35:12 He has, for eight years, not dealt with conflicts between, well, I mean, for decades, right?

01:35:25 Since his daughter was little, he hasn't stepped up and told his wife and his daughter, and

01:35:31 his wife in particular, because she was the mother and your wife was little, saying, "You

01:35:36 know, you can't treat your daughter that way.

01:35:39 You can't treat your children that way.

01:35:41 This is not acceptable.

01:35:42 This is harmful."

01:35:43 He didn't protect his daughter.

01:35:47 He didn't protect your wife.

01:35:48 And now he's letting or allowing or facilitating his wife, with his participation, nuking your

01:36:01 marriage.

01:36:05 Okay, I see your point.

01:36:07 I agree.

01:36:08 But I think I would put more blame definitely on her mom, because I think she would more

01:36:13 actively...

01:36:14 Oh my God, you're going to drive me completely insane.

01:36:18 I'm sorry.

01:36:20 And I just say this because, you know, you've listened to "On Truth" and all of that.

01:36:23 Okay.

01:36:23 Is there a different dial of resistance to nuking?

01:36:29 This is the whole point I've been on since the very beginning of this call.

01:36:33 Is there a different dial of responsibility for two equal partners in a relationship?

01:36:38 Can the wife be more responsible for something negative and the husband less responsible

01:36:47 for something that's negative?

01:36:48 I would say yes.

01:36:50 Yes.

01:36:51 You are absolutely incorrect.

01:36:53 You are both equally responsible.

01:36:55 You are absolutely incorrect.

01:36:57 You are both equally responsible, because you chose her.

01:37:00 You chose to see her, date her, get engaged to her, marry her, have a child with her and

01:37:07 stay with her for eight years, right?

01:37:08 Sure.

01:37:10 You are 100% responsible and she is 100% responsible.

01:37:14 Because it's what people do in relationships.

01:37:17 They get mad, they excuse themselves and they blame the other person, right?

01:37:21 You gave me a choice and then you took that choice away.

01:37:29 It's 100% you and because I am an innocent victim here and you are the bad actor, I can

01:37:34 now get angry at you and "Hey man, it's just self-defense, because you're 100% wrong, I'm

01:37:38 100% right."

01:37:39 No.

01:37:41 Absolutely false.

01:37:45 You chose her, knowing who she was.

01:37:49 You cannot ever blame your wife.

01:37:53 You cannot blame your wife.

01:37:56 That leads to abuse and destruction.

01:37:59 Because then you feel like you're an angel and she's a devil.

01:38:04 You're all right, she's all bad and that gives you permission to do shitty stuff.

01:38:08 You cannot blame her.

01:38:13 You chose her.

01:38:18 If you spend an entire week picking out the perfect outfit, do you then get to bitch about

01:38:25 the outfit when you go out?

01:38:27 Do you?

01:38:34 Can I add something?

01:38:36 No, just answer me this.

01:38:38 If you spend a week picking out the perfect outfit, you go from store to store to store,

01:38:42 you got some big celebration, some whatever, right?

01:38:46 You spend a week choosing to pick out that outfit.

01:38:49 Whose fault is it if the outfit doesn't work?

01:38:52 Whose fault is it if the outfit makes you look goofy?

01:38:54 Yeah, you had all the choice in the world.

01:38:57 You can't blame the outfit.

01:38:58 You're an attractive guy.

01:38:59 You're a successful guy.

01:39:02 You're a smart, eloquent guy.

01:39:06 You listen to philosophy.

01:39:08 Fantastic, right?

01:39:09 So you're top tier.

01:39:11 You could have chosen any woman you wanted.

01:39:16 Oh, I'm not that successful in their eyes, but okay.

01:39:20 I know you just got a demotion, but I mean, you've been working hard, right?

01:39:24 And you are providing.

01:39:25 So you could have chosen, and certainly eight years ago, right?

01:39:31 You could have chosen just about any girl you wanted.

01:39:34 This is the girl you chose.

01:39:35 So you can't blame her.

01:39:37 She is your choice.

01:39:38 She is a manifestation of your free will.

01:39:40 You can't blame her.

01:39:46 Because you chose her.

01:39:47 Nobody forced you.

01:39:48 Like you can blame parents because we don't choose parents, right?

01:39:50 We're just born into the households, right?

01:39:51 But you chose her.

01:39:54 You chose to date, get engaged, marry, live with, have a child with eight years.

01:40:01 You cannot attack her without attacking yourself.

01:40:07 You cannot denigrate her without denigrating yourself.

01:40:10 You're in the mental position of one of two people in a rowboat in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

01:40:16 And you say, I'm just going to drill a hole in your side of the boat, but my side will be fine.

01:40:23 No, you both sink.

01:40:24 You can't make her wrong without shitting on yourself.

01:40:37 Because if you say she's wrong, she's bad, she's dysfunctional, she's got, she's messed up,

01:40:42 she's this, that, the other, then you're saying I'm so messed up.

01:40:45 I chose someone who's like this.

01:40:47 In which case you write everything you put on her, you put on yourself.

01:40:52 There's no independent insult of the woman you chose to be the mother of your child.

01:40:58 Did I insult her in this conversation?

01:41:07 You blamed her.

01:41:08 And you certainly reported insulting her.

01:41:13 A bitch is one of the worst things a woman can hear, right?

01:41:16 But you're blaming her.

01:41:21 But you're, you know what the Bible says, whether you're religious or not,

01:41:31 there's a lot of wisdom in the good book, right?

01:41:33 The Bible says you are one flesh.

01:41:38 And what I mean by that is that it's the same, you're the same person, you're the same body,

01:41:45 you are one flesh.

01:41:45 Like if I don't, if I lift weights and I don't get the biceps I want,

01:41:52 is it fair for me to stab my biceps?

01:41:53 I blame my biceps, I'm angry at them, I'm going to stab them because they're not giving me the

01:42:02 bulk and size that I want.

01:42:03 That would be crazy, right?

01:42:04 Because I'm stabbing myself.

01:42:06 It's the same thing with your wife, you can't insult your wife without insulting yourself.

01:42:09 So you failed to see a threat to your marriage, which was your wife's parents, right?

01:42:29 And that threat has now manifested in that I guarantee you, I guarantee you this,

01:42:35 that before she decided to leave you, she talked it over for weeks, if not months,

01:42:39 if not longer with her parents, right?

01:42:41 I'm someone happy, he's not available, he's mean to me.

01:42:46 And I mean, if you have a daughter and you hear that her boyfriend, I know you're not a

01:42:52 boyfriend, but let's say you've got a daughter, you love her to death.

01:42:57 And one of her boyfriends calls her a bitch.

01:42:59 How would you feel about that boyfriend?

01:43:02 Right, so you handed a weapon not just to your wife, but to her parents.

01:43:12 Because she went home and she's in tears and she's sobbing at some point, maybe over the

01:43:17 phone or maybe she went to see them on her own while you're at work.

01:43:23 And she's like, he called me a bitch, I can't stand it, he's so mean, right?

01:43:27 So then all of these things start moving out of sight, right?

01:43:39 These shifts, these changes, these alignments, this preparation, right?

01:43:45 You got to get out, honey.

01:43:48 No man should ever speak to you that way.

01:43:51 Did he apologize?

01:43:53 Sort of, but then he said it was my fault for provoking him.

01:43:55 Oh, that's terrible.

01:43:56 You can't live like that.

01:43:58 That's a whole other topic here.

01:44:06 I'm sorry?

01:44:07 That is a whole other conversation, how people are presenting themselves as friends, but

01:44:14 they're actually not.

01:44:17 No, even, yeah, for sure, for sure.

01:44:20 But someone who makes your wife cry, I don't know how a family that makes your wife cry

01:44:30 that you can love and respect anybody in that family.

01:44:34 When you have that kind of situation, it's kind of a battle to the death, like either

01:44:45 you win or they win, but there's usually not much of a draw.

01:44:47 Now, sorry, I've had a couple of speeches here, so I want to sort of check in with you,

01:44:56 see what you're thinking and feeling before the final topic for me.

01:44:59 I don't know.

01:45:05 I don't know what to say, Stephen.

01:45:14 All right, now, there's one person conspicuously absent, it seems to me, from what you're talking

01:45:22 about, because you're talking about you and your wife, right?

01:45:24 You and your wife.

01:45:25 My wife said this, I said that.

01:45:26 She bothers me about this.

01:45:27 I upset her with that.

01:45:28 Right?

01:45:29 You and your wife, you and your wife, you and your wife, right?

01:45:32 Now, let's say that you were in the right about something, right?

01:45:40 You were just in the right.

01:45:43 And you could fix your marriage to some degree by just apologizing, by just completely apologizing,

01:45:54 right?

01:45:54 And saying, "You know what?

01:45:56 I did call you a bitch.

01:45:57 That's absolutely unacceptable.

01:45:59 Doesn't matter what you did.

01:46:00 Absolutely unacceptable.

01:46:02 I'm incredibly sorry.

01:46:04 I'm going to immediately sign up for anger management, and I'm going to deal with this.

01:46:09 100%, right?

01:46:11 And you should never, ever...

01:46:12 I commit that I will never, ever say anything like that again.

01:46:15 Like, you just take 150% responsibility, you apologize, you make restitution, you put a

01:46:24 plan in place so it's not going to happen again, like going to anger management or therapy or

01:46:27 something like that, right?

01:46:28 That was a possibility, right?

01:46:31 That was, yep.

01:46:35 Now, who would be your biggest motivator for doing that?

01:46:39 My son.

01:46:40 That's right.

01:46:41 But you barely mentioned him at all.

01:46:44 Like, it's about your conflict with your wife.

01:46:49 I'm calling you because of my son.

01:46:51 I'm calling you so...

01:46:52 Right.

01:46:52 But that's why you apologize unreservedly, and you take total ownership for your son.

01:47:05 So that your son doesn't grow up in a broken home, so that your son doesn't grow up with

01:47:10 divorced parents, so that your son doesn't end up stuck in the house with your wife and

01:47:19 her combat mother.

01:47:20 Yeah, if I did that, I would end up just like her father.

01:47:26 Like, I am not okay with that.

01:47:29 I'm sorry.

01:47:30 That's why I'm...

01:47:31 Let's say if I give in to...

01:47:41 No, you used a better word.

01:47:43 You said to be gracious, right?

01:47:45 To kind of...

01:47:46 Yeah, you apologize.

01:47:48 ...apologize, you know.

01:47:49 I don't think there will be an end to this.

01:47:53 I could not express my own preferences or choices.

01:47:57 And then I would just end up being only serving to her.

01:48:02 Like, there would no...

01:48:03 I would disappear in this relationship.

01:48:05 I'm sorry, how do you know?

01:48:07 How do you know that?

01:48:08 Because you can see people who are like this.

01:48:13 If you can see them around...

01:48:15 I'm sorry, like not...

01:48:17 Ten minutes ago, you told me that you respected her father, and now you say it's the worst

01:48:21 thing in the world to be like your father, to be like her father.

01:48:23 It's... you understand why I'm a little confused here.

01:48:26 No, no, I do understand.

01:48:28 You're right.

01:48:28 It's the worst thing in the world to end up like that guy I like and respect.

01:48:32 I don't think he's respected.

01:48:36 I don't think he's respected.

01:48:38 No, no, no.

01:48:38 I don't care about the abstract.

01:48:40 You told me that you did respect him.

01:48:41 So, this is called catastrophizing.

01:48:49 And my question is... and look, I understand your concern.

01:48:53 I really, really, really do.

01:48:54 I absolutely understand your concern.

01:48:56 If you have two people acting badly in a relationship,

01:49:04 what is the only solution that's possible?

01:49:10 Because I want to give you real solutions, not imaginary ones.

01:49:12 What is the only real solution?

01:49:14 You and your wife are both behaving like this.

01:49:16 What is the only real solution?

01:49:17 You and your wife are both behaving badly.

01:49:20 And there's good things there too, right?

01:49:21 We're just focusing on the negative, right?

01:49:23 So, you and your wife are both behaving badly.

01:49:25 What is the only solution for you that you have control over?

01:49:32 Of my behavior.

01:49:34 I'm sorry?

01:49:36 I have only control of my behavior.

01:49:39 So, you can't make her act better, right?

01:49:44 No.

01:49:46 I was hoping, but no.

01:49:47 Well, that won't work.

01:49:49 Why people split up is often because also they say,

01:49:55 "Well, I'm behaving badly.

01:49:57 You're behaving badly.

01:49:58 So, you improve first and then I'll match you."

01:50:00 But that's not how it works.

01:50:01 Now, of course, everyone is afraid in a dysfunctional relationship

01:50:06 that if I behave better, the other person is just going to take advantage and exploit

01:50:11 and grind me down and say, "Aha!

01:50:13 You have admitted fault.

01:50:14 I'm always right.

01:50:15 You're always wrong," and grind you into dust, right?

01:50:17 Do I have that somewhat right?

01:50:23 Right.

01:50:25 But I think you're going to...

01:50:27 Okay.

01:50:27 I have changed a lot.

01:50:30 Like I used to be a person that is my way or highway, but I adjusted because I understand

01:50:36 that we are in a relationship, that we are together.

01:50:40 I cannot just have it my way.

01:50:41 But I want to see that the same kind of approach on the other side.

01:50:47 I cannot be just the only one.

01:50:49 >> No, dude, dude.

01:50:50 >> Adjusting.

01:50:51 >> Fuck me, man.

01:50:52 Now, we're back to this bullshit, which is you're telling me, "Oh, the guy who said his

01:50:58 wife is a bitch is the vastly improved guy."

01:51:00 Okay.

01:51:01 >> Okay.

01:51:02 >> If you're so improved...

01:51:03 >> It's horrible once.

01:51:05 >> I only had one affair.

01:51:07 I only killed one guy.

01:51:08 Right?

01:51:11 That's a terrible thing to say to the mother of your child.

01:51:13 And I don't believe that the apology was truly authentic because you had, but you provoked

01:51:18 me in it, but I don't want to get into that debate again because that's yours to decide.

01:51:21 But can you improve?

01:51:25 >> Yes, of course.

01:51:30 >> Okay.

01:51:31 So if you have two fat people, they need to lose weight, right?

01:51:37 >> Right.

01:51:39 >> Now, if they both stare at each other, eating cheesecake, saying, "You lose weight

01:51:44 first," what happens?

01:51:45 >> It's not going to help.

01:51:48 >> Nobody ever loses weight.

01:51:50 >> Yeah.

01:51:50 >> Because you're waiting for the other person.

01:51:53 It's just a way of saying, when you say, "I want other people to change," it's just an

01:51:56 elegant way of saying, "I'm not going to change."

01:51:58 Now, if your wife has hurt you and your wife has frustrated you, then changing for her

01:52:08 is tough because you're not in a position where you like her hugely.

01:52:12 So I get that.

01:52:14 But you don't do it for your wife.

01:52:15 You do it for your son.

01:52:16 Now, if you don't commit to improving and actually improve, what happens to your marriage?

01:52:31 >> It's going to end.

01:52:36 >> Yeah, it's over, right?

01:52:37 >> Right.

01:52:38 >> It's over.

01:52:39 Now, who does that harm the most?

01:52:43 >> Your son.

01:52:44 >> Your son, right.

01:52:47 Now, you have nothing to lose by committing to improvement because if you improve, one

01:52:56 of two things is going to happen, right?

01:52:57 Either your wife, she's going to be skeptical, she's going to be hostile, but after a while

01:53:05 she might be like, "Wow, he really has changed."

01:53:08 "Wow, he really is improving."

01:53:10 And then she will be inspired by that and work to improve herself, right?

01:53:16 One possibility.

01:53:20 The other possibility is that you improve, you do therapy, anger management, you do whatever

01:53:28 work you need to do to improve, you take full responsibility, you resist the infantile urge

01:53:34 to blame other people that you chose to have in your life.

01:53:37 So, you improve and she turns into an even more horrible person because she then exploits

01:53:45 your improvement and lords it over you and all of that, right?

01:53:48 Now, the downside of that is what?

01:53:54 Your marriage fails.

01:53:55 But your marriage is going to fail anyway.

01:53:57 Do you see what I mean?

01:54:02 Like, you've nothing to lose as far as that goes.

01:54:04 Your marriage is going to fail.

01:54:05 Your marriage is failing anyway.

01:54:07 So, if you improve and your wife becomes worse and meaner and more exploitive and so on,

01:54:13 right?

01:54:14 Well, you haven't lost anything, but you've gained something enormous.

01:54:18 Do you know what you gain if you improve and your wife gets worse?

01:54:22 What?

01:54:24 A clear conscience that you did the very best you could.

01:54:33 Right.

01:54:33 The only chance, in my view, for your marriage to succeed, which is what your son needs,

01:54:45 is for you to take full responsibility, full ownership, blame no one, blame nothing, accept

01:54:52 it all.

01:54:52 Work to improve, anger management, therapy, workbooks, whatever is going to work for you.

01:54:59 Fully commit to improving, fully resist the devilish temptation to blame others that you

01:55:07 chose.

01:55:08 Now, if this saves your marriage, you have done a heroic and wonderful thing to the great

01:55:17 benefit of your son and your wife.

01:55:19 You're also going to have to engage in some pretty interesting combat with your wife's

01:55:25 parents, because they're going to be there for you.

01:55:27 And you're going to have to engage in combat with your wife's parents at some point,

01:55:32 because if you rescue her from them, which is fundamentally what you're trying to do,

01:55:36 then at some point, you either have a sit down with them or with your wife and say,

01:55:41 "Hmm, you know, we hit a real crisis.

01:55:43 Our house was on fire and your parents were throwing gasoline on the flames."

01:55:46 So they can kindly take a long walk off a short pier, as far as I'm concerned.

01:55:55 They were stabbed, they twisted the blade.

01:55:56 Yeah, I don't see our relationship ever fixing, me and her parents.

01:56:04 Even if we get back together, I don't think I could ever go back to their house or pretend

01:56:09 that we are friends.

01:56:11 That's done.

01:56:12 Yeah, they're facilitating the destruction of your marriage.

01:56:14 Then that's bad, right?

01:56:17 So you seek to improve, you take total responsibility.

01:56:22 This might save your marriage.

01:56:24 Fantastic.

01:56:25 If it doesn't save your marriage, if your wife looks at your improvement and then says,

01:56:32 "Oh, he's finally admitted his fault.

01:56:35 I'm totally in the right."

01:56:36 And then she just becomes even more insufferable and unbearable and aggressive or whatever

01:56:40 it is, right?

01:56:41 Then you at least know that you did everything you could to try and save the marriage, to

01:56:49 try and help things, to try and improve things.

01:56:51 And you see your...

01:56:54 See, when you blame your wife, you never get to see the real person because she's always

01:57:01 trying to navigate and dodge that blame.

01:57:03 Now, if you just take 150% responsibility and say, "Yep, the problems in the marriage,

01:57:10 I'm going to assume they're all on me.

01:57:11 I'm going to work as hard as I can."

01:57:13 Right?

01:57:14 You got two fat people, one person is going to say, "You know what?

01:57:16 I'm not waiting for you to get fit.

01:57:19 I'm just going to eat better.

01:57:20 I'm going to exercise.

01:57:21 I hope that you will come along for the journey.

01:57:24 I hope to inspire you.

01:57:25 If you want any tips or hints on how I've lost weight and eat better, then I'm happy

01:57:32 to help and all of that."

01:57:33 Right?

01:57:34 Then that's what you do because all you can do is control what you put in your mouth and

01:57:39 all you can do is control the words that come out of your mouth.

01:57:42 Right?

01:57:43 So, okay.

01:57:43 So that's fine.

01:57:44 Now, and your wife...

01:57:46 Hey, it's our battery.

01:57:56 No, that was my bad.

01:57:57 My computer ran out of battery, but we're fine now.

01:58:00 So yeah, if you improve and she gets worse, then you've done everything you could and

01:58:07 then you chose the wrong person, you learned your lessons, you figure out what you missed

01:58:10 and so on.

01:58:12 Right?

01:58:12 And then at least when your son says what happened, you can say, "Look, I definitely

01:58:17 did some wrong things, but I really...

01:58:19 I did go to anger management and here's the receipts.

01:58:21 I did go to therapy and here's the receipts.

01:58:23 Your mother chose not.

01:58:25 I wanted to do couples counseling with your mother.

01:58:27 She chose not to.

01:58:28 She didn't do any anger management.

01:58:30 She didn't do any therapy.

01:58:31 She didn't do any couples counseling.

01:58:32 I made mistakes.

01:58:34 I absolutely tried my very best and I'm really sorry that it worked out the way that it did

01:58:39 and I take responsibility for that because I chose your mother to be your mother, so

01:58:43 that's on me."

01:58:44 There's no downside to taking responsibility.

01:58:50 Other than vanity and pride and wanting to blame other people and make yourself innocent

01:58:59 and all of that nonsense that goes on.

01:59:01 And I say nonsense, I mean, I'm still prone to it now and it happens and it's a natural

01:59:06 human impulse.

01:59:08 But philosophy, like nutrition, is designed to go a little bit against some of our natural

01:59:11 human impulses.

01:59:13 So what do you think?

01:59:21 "I keep thinking about him, about my son, because if the marriage gets, you know, broken

01:59:30 and dissolved, he's going to take all the brunt of it."

01:59:34 Right.

01:59:35 And that's why you put aside your ego, your vanity, your desire to be right, your desire

01:59:41 to make the other person wrong, your self-righteousness, which we all have.

01:59:44 I have it, you have it, every single, your wife has it, everyone has it.

01:59:47 And that's like a devil whispering in your ear and says, "Don't be happy, don't be right,

01:59:52 don't do what's right, just feel right.

01:59:55 Don't be right, just feel right."

01:59:56 But you have to put all of that aside because of your son.

02:00:01 Your son needs his parents together.

02:00:04 You can't force your wife to change.

02:00:08 But there can come a point where you thank her and you say, "You know what?

02:00:15 You really got me into anger management.

02:00:17 You really got me into therapy.

02:00:18 You broke me out of this whole pattern.

02:00:20 Thank you for taking a stand against my bad behavior.

02:00:23 I hugely respect you and I love you for doing that, for shaking me out of my hypnosis and

02:00:30 getting me into therapy or anger management or whatever, right?

02:00:33 Like you really did the right thing.

02:00:35 I really appreciate that and you were totally right to do it."

02:00:38 But you got to do it quick because I virtually guarantee you that her parents are pouring

02:00:49 all of this poison into her ear about never going back and he's a terrible guy and thank

02:00:54 God you got out and you can't put your son through this.

02:00:57 You got to move quick.

02:01:03 Because you're racing the clock here, I think.

02:01:05 And if I were you, I would just meet her face to face and say, "It's all on me.

02:01:28 It's all on me.

02:01:29 I am going to deal with this.

02:01:32 You have woken me up.

02:01:33 I'm so sorry for how I've been behaving.

02:01:35 I called you the B word.

02:01:39 It's the worst thing I've ever said.

02:01:40 I'm ashamed to my very core.

02:01:42 I am going to fix this.

02:01:44 I hope we get back together.

02:01:46 I really do.

02:01:47 But even if we don't, even if for whatever reason we do end up separated, me not having

02:01:52 this kind of aggressive temper and me not having this permission to call you terrible

02:01:56 words, that's going to be for the benefit of everyone.

02:02:00 It's something I need to do.

02:02:01 I'm really sorry I didn't do it sooner.

02:02:03 It's a wake up call.

02:02:05 I was wrong and I'm going to fix this in myself.

02:02:09 And I hope that you will rejoin me in this journey.

02:02:14 No pride, no vanity, no righteousness for you and for your son and in the long run for

02:02:25 your wife as well.

02:02:27 It's the stuff we don't say that gets us, right?

02:02:31 It's not that you called her the B word.

02:02:33 It's that you haven't just accepted that as 100% your responsibility, because it's hard

02:02:43 for you to look.

02:02:43 I mean, it's hard for all.

02:02:44 We've all done wrong things.

02:02:45 We've all done bad things.

02:02:46 And it's hard to look at the B word and say, well, I'm sorry.

02:02:48 I'm just not going to do it.

02:02:49 I'm not going to do it.

02:02:50 I'm not going to do it.

02:02:51 I'm not going to do it.

02:02:52 I'm not going to do it.

02:02:53 I'm not going to do it.

02:02:53 I mean, it's hard for all.

02:02:54 We've all done wrong things.

02:02:55 We've all done bad things.

02:02:56 And it's hard to look at the mirror and say, yeah, I did something really wrong here.

02:02:59 I did something really wrong.

02:03:01 But it's kind of essential, right?

02:03:03 Because we all do ring things that are wrong.

02:03:06 We all say things that are mean.

02:03:07 We all just do something that's really wrong.

02:03:09 And my wife is not putting up with it.

02:03:14 And good for her.

02:03:18 She shouldn't.

02:03:22 And you do need to deal with this temper, right?

02:03:24 Am I right about this?

02:03:25 No.

02:03:32 Sorry, I wasn't sure what that was.

02:03:35 No, no, I'm thinking.

02:03:37 Like, I see where you're coming from.

02:03:41 OK, I can deal with it, with my temper.

02:03:44 I can get help.

02:03:47 But OK, I will have to, again, re-listen to this and think about this.

02:03:53 Look, and again, I'm not saying your wife didn't behave badly.

02:03:56 But if you and your wife are both fat and all you do is say, yeah, but she's overeating,

02:04:04 what am I going to say?

02:04:05 But the thing is, to her, this is not addressed at all.

02:04:12 She doesn't find that she's in wrong.

02:04:14 And I don't want to put us back into the earlier in this conversation.

02:04:21 It just feels like I'm trying always to, I'm going to now be the one who is at fault

02:04:28 and try to get better.

02:04:29 >> You are modeling, OK, listen, listen.

02:04:31 You are modeling better behavior for her.

02:04:34 Right, listen, you're not a guy who admits that he's at fault a huge amount either.

02:04:39 I'm not saying there's some terrible flaw because we're all like this to some degree,

02:04:44 right, but she's probably never, ever seen someone take full ownership of his actions,

02:04:51 right?

02:04:51 She's probably never seen that anywhere.

02:04:52 You don't see it in the arts.

02:04:54 You don't see it in movies or television or songs.

02:04:56 It's always like, you broke my heart and you're a bastard or whatever, right?

02:04:59 So she's probably never seen someone taking complete and total responsibility for his

02:05:05 or her own actions, right?

02:05:07 So what you're doing is you're doing the right thing because you are in control of yourself

02:05:11 and she's not in control of you, right?

02:05:13 Only you control your mouth.

02:05:14 She doesn't.

02:05:14 Only you control your nervous system.

02:05:16 She doesn't.

02:05:17 Only you are wired into your spine.

02:05:18 She is not.

02:05:19 So only you control your actions.

02:05:21 So you taking full responsibility for your actions is the truth, right?

02:05:27 Because earlier you said, "I really liked your book on truth."

02:05:29 So tell the truth.

02:05:30 It's like the truth is nobody forced you to call her a bitch.

02:05:33 Nobody forced you to raise your voice.

02:05:35 Nobody forces you to be stressed.

02:05:37 Nobody forces you or controls you, right?

02:05:38 These are all choices that you make.

02:05:42 So you are modeling taking responsibility.

02:05:47 Now maybe she'll be inspired by that and she'll take responsibility.

02:05:52 It's like you've cut a bunch of firewood deep in the woods, right?

02:06:00 You've cut a bunch of firewood and it all needs to get back to the cottage, right?

02:06:03 And you and your wife are arguing about who should take more back or who should carry

02:06:08 it or who's responsible or who carried it last time and who's a bitch for not agreeing.

02:06:13 And at some point, don't you just pick up the firewood and walk to the cottage?

02:06:19 Am I wrong?

02:06:20 All right.

02:06:21 And what's she going to do?

02:06:24 Is she just going to stand there arguing with no one?

02:06:26 No.

02:06:27 What's she going to do?

02:06:27 Oh, she'll proceed.

02:06:34 She'll pick up some firewood and follow you home.

02:06:36 Yeah.

02:06:38 Right?

02:06:38 If you change what you're doing, she's going to have to change what she's doing.

02:06:44 If you take responsibility, odds are, I can't guarantee it, right?

02:06:48 Because it's free will.

02:06:49 If you take responsibility and if you blame someone, what do they do?

02:06:54 They feel defensive and they attack back, right?

02:06:56 You do that.

02:06:57 I do it.

02:06:57 Everyone does it.

02:06:58 If someone blames you, you get defensive.

02:07:02 You either get passive aggressive or you get aggressive back.

02:07:05 Do we agree on that?

02:07:07 Yes.

02:07:08 So when we're around someone, like behavior is infectious, right?

02:07:13 Behavior spreads.

02:07:14 So if you are around someone, if your wife would have called you up today and say,

02:07:21 "You know what?

02:07:21 It's 100% on me.

02:07:23 I've been insufferable.

02:07:24 I've been difficult.

02:07:25 I've been moody.

02:07:26 I have, I didn't even realize how much my parents were affecting me.

02:07:29 I've been a bad wife.

02:07:30 I've just done the wrong things, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah," right?

02:07:32 And she took complete ownership and never mentioned you once as being the cause of

02:07:37 anything, right?

02:07:38 Would you respect her?

02:07:39 Yeah.

02:07:42 Yeah.

02:07:43 Would you be more inclined to take responsibility for what you're doing if she took

02:07:48 responsibility for what she's doing?

02:07:50 100%, yes.

02:07:52 So be that leader.

02:07:53 Do what you would respect in someone else.

02:07:57 Whereas if she comes along and she says, "It's all your fault.

02:08:03 You're responsible for all of it.

02:08:05 You're a bastard, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,"

02:08:07 then you'll be like, "All you do is fight back.

02:08:09 You don't take any responsibility.

02:08:10 You're just in a battle.

02:08:11 It's a stupid battle.

02:08:11 It leads nowhere," right?

02:08:13 Well, except back to your parents, right?

02:08:14 So if she would take complete responsibility, you'd be like, "Oh, load off my shoulders.

02:08:19 Now I can think clearly.

02:08:20 Now I can start to take some responsibility without feeling like I'm going to get blamed

02:08:25 forever," right?

02:08:25 So be a leader.

02:08:28 You want to be the man you provide and you protect.

02:08:32 How do you protect people who don't take responsibility?

02:08:35 You take responsibility.

02:08:36 You model the better behavior.

02:08:38 If you would respect her for taking full responsibility, you will also respect yourself for doing the

02:08:48 same.

02:08:48 Right.

02:08:56 Whereas two people yelling at each other, "No, you're the problem, not me.

02:09:00 No, you're the problem, not me," is that something you can respect?

02:09:05 Right.

02:09:05 It's not.

02:09:06 It's not.

02:09:07 You know, doing what you respect is never a bad course of action, is it?

02:09:31 Right.

02:09:38 And it's breaking a cycle.

02:09:45 It's breaking a pattern.

02:09:47 You have to do something different or you're just going to end up with the same outcomes,

02:09:50 right?

02:09:50 And if you've been blaming each other, if you've been blaming her, and I know it's not

02:09:55 black and white.

02:09:56 I get that.

02:09:57 But you have to change what's happening or the outcome is preordained.

02:10:03 So if you have been blaming her to some degree, just take 100% responsibility.

02:10:10 You don't know how that's going to play out.

02:10:11 But you know that if you continue to do what you're doing, your marriage is probably done

02:10:17 and you don't have the right to do that because you have a son.

02:10:21 And he's looking at you and his breath is hanging in the balance, like your son's future

02:10:27 is hanging in the balance.

02:10:28 He is on a frayed thread over a deep canyon.

02:10:31 And you have to do whatever it takes to protect him.

02:10:37 And if that means, which it should, taking 100% responsibility, committing to dealing

02:10:45 with anger, temper, blaming others, playing the victim, whatever's going on, which again,

02:10:50 I sympathize with.

02:10:51 I'm not above it.

02:10:52 Nobody is.

02:10:53 We all have that petty devil in our hearts.

02:10:57 But you have to do what your son needs.

02:11:05 And blaming your wife is only going to drive her further away.

02:11:09 Taking responsibility might bring her closer.

02:11:12 Maybe it will inspire her.

02:11:13 Maybe it won't.

02:11:16 But you got to try for the sake of your son.

02:11:19 You have to put aside your pride and do what is best for your child.

02:11:25 And there's a great relief in having kids because it's not about you anymore.

02:11:31 Right?

02:11:32 It's not just, well, what do I want?

02:11:35 And what's best for me?

02:11:35 It's just, okay, well, what's best for my kid?

02:11:37 Okay, I'll do that.

02:11:38 Right?

02:11:38 And what's best for your kid is for you to try and fix things.

02:11:44 And the only way to fix things is to take responsibility.

02:11:46 Because not taking responsibility for the last eight years got you here.

02:11:50 Right?

02:11:50 And not taking full responsibility.

02:11:52 I'm not saying you don't take any.

02:11:53 I don't want to make this like black and white binary.

02:11:55 But you haven't gone 150% as far as I can tell.

02:11:58 So now, so it's easy, right?

02:12:01 It's easy.

02:12:03 You know, if you're in the kitchen and you see that your son is grabbing,

02:12:12 you know, like your little boy is grabbing at a steak knife,

02:12:14 you go over, you take the steak knife away.

02:12:16 Right?

02:12:16 It's very simple.

02:12:17 You have to do what's best for your kid.

02:12:19 It doesn't matter if you're on the phone.

02:12:21 It doesn't matter if you're juggling.

02:12:23 It doesn't matter if you're about to get high score on Candy Crush.

02:12:26 You go over, like your life is very simple.

02:12:28 You just do what's best for your kids.

02:12:30 Right?

02:12:30 And that just means surrendering yourself to the moral law.

02:12:40 Now, I mean, you grew up with a military dad.

02:12:43 So, so, you know, I was really struck when you said,

02:12:46 "Well, I had to make a reasonable case to my dad."

02:12:48 It's like, well, kids don't always make reasonable cases.

02:12:50 They should still be listened to.

02:12:51 And it doesn't mean that they're wrong.

02:12:52 So your dad, you know, he was a military guy,

02:12:55 probably a bit of an authoritarian.

02:12:57 And you probably have a little bit of that in you.

02:12:59 But you just have to put all of that aside and do what's best for your son.

02:13:04 And taking 150% responsibility is best for your son, no matter what the outcome.

02:13:11 It's better because it's true.

02:13:13 It's better because it's honorable.

02:13:14 It has the best chance of saving your marriage, I think.

02:13:20 Won't guarantee it because there's free will.

02:13:22 And unfortunately, your wife is now under the influence

02:13:26 more of her parents than she is of you.

02:13:28 But so, you know, you're on the back foot, as the British used to say, right?

02:13:36 You're a little off balance, but that's because you didn't recognize the danger

02:13:39 in your in-laws for eight years straight,

02:13:43 or seven, or whenever you first really got to know them.

02:13:46 So you kind of let the in-laws have a disproportionately negative effect

02:13:53 on your wife.

02:13:55 And now they've kind of won at the moment.

02:13:57 That doesn't mean they've won the battle, not the war.

02:13:59 But that's the wake-up call, I think, to just grit your teeth, put your ego aside,

02:14:07 do what is best for your son, what's best for your marriage,

02:14:11 what's best for your future.

02:14:14 And you're going to have to let go of just wanting to be in the right.

02:14:17 It just, it doesn't work.

02:14:19 It just leads you too open to control, manipulation, aggression, escalation.

02:14:24 You have to let go of wanting to win with people.

02:14:30 You can win against enemies.

02:14:32 You can't win against someone you love.

02:14:33 Because if you win, they lose.

02:14:36 And love is win-win.

02:14:37 Has to be, right?

02:14:38 Wanting to win with someone you love is like wanting to exploit someone you work with.

02:14:44 It's not honorable.

02:14:44 It's not right.

02:14:45 And it can't last.

02:14:47 So yeah, so that's most of what I wanted to get across.

02:14:52 What do you think?

02:14:52 I agree.

02:14:56 I have to agree.

02:14:58 You said that really well.

02:15:00 You're right.

02:15:01 All right.

02:15:02 Well, will you keep me posted about how things are going?

02:15:05 I will.

02:15:07 Will you then extend an offer to your wife that if she wants to talk,

02:15:12 I would be very happy to do that either with you or one-on-one.

02:15:16 I'm perfectly happy to do that.

02:15:17 And I'm also here to do whatever is best for your son and for you guys as a whole.

02:15:22 So please extend that offer to her.

02:15:24 If she's interested, I'd be very happy to make the time for that.

02:15:27 I will.

02:15:28 I will, for sure.

02:15:29 She knows about you.

02:15:30 I shared your stuff to her a lot.

02:15:32 So I will.

02:15:33 You can tell her that I sided with her a good deal as well.

02:15:36 It just, that might help her.

02:15:37 That might help her.

02:15:38 Her parents are not welcome, but she is.

02:15:40 All right.

02:15:40 Will you keep me posted about how things are going?

02:15:43 Yes, I will.

02:15:44 All right.

02:15:44 Thanks, brother.

02:15:45 I wish you the best of luck.

02:15:46 I'm sure you'll do very well with this.

02:15:48 Thank you.

02:15:49 And I appreciate you taking my call.

02:15:51 It means a lot.

02:15:52 I don't really have many people to talk with, and especially when it's a delicate topic.

02:15:57 And I need somebody really insightful.

02:16:00 And that's you.

02:16:02 I appreciate that.

02:16:03 I'm glad to be of help.

02:16:04 And I have my fingers crossed, and I'm sure it'll work out.

02:16:07 All right.

02:16:07 Take care, my friend.

02:16:08 Bye-bye.

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