What Bill Barr finds nauseating about Trump
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00:00 Back now with the former Attorney General Bill Barr.
00:02 And since we have last spoken on this program,
00:05 Trump is now facing a superseding indictment
00:08 in the documents case, which means
00:09 more charges have been added.
00:11 You thought it was a serious case before.
00:14 Now that these other charges have been added,
00:15 do you believe it's even stronger now?
00:17 Oh yeah, it's definitely stronger.
00:20 The allegation of another kind of cover up
00:24 and obstruction attempt after getting
00:29 a subpoena for the surveillance tapes,
00:32 then entering into a conspiracy to delete
00:37 the surveillance tapes.
00:39 So that certainly buttresses the government's case.
00:44 And it's also quite typical in this sense.
00:49 These two individuals, Nauda and the--
00:52 Carlos.
00:52 --Carlos are dragged into this thing.
00:55 Their lives turned upside down by Trump
00:59 to pursue this caper of his.
01:04 And he leaves in his wake ruined lives like this.
01:08 The people who went up to Capitol Hill,
01:11 these individuals, many of the people
01:13 who served them in government that got sucked into things.
01:16 And he just leaves all this carnage in his wake.
01:19 Do you think he cares about that?
01:20 No, he doesn't care about that.
01:22 Loyalty is a one way street for him.
01:25 And in many ways, I think these two people
01:28 down in Mar-a-Lago represent many Republicans who
01:33 feel that they have to man the ramparts
01:36 and defend this guy no matter what he does
01:38 and go along with him.
01:40 And I think they have to be careful
01:43 or they're going to end up as part of the carnage in his wake.
01:46 That's what your message is to those people who do feel
01:49 that sense of loyalty to him?
01:51 I think we all have primary loyalty
01:54 to the Constitution and the country,
01:56 not to any particular individual.
01:58 And at some point, trying to defend the indefensible
02:03 really demeans you.
02:05 He always says he had a right to declassify the documents
02:07 or take them with him.
02:08 I mean, if he really thought that,
02:10 why would he ask someone to delete security surveillance
02:13 footage?
02:13 Well, yeah, but not the whole thing.
02:15 If he really thought he had the right to have the documents,
02:18 there were umpteen ways for him to assert that when he was asked
02:21 by the government and during that one and a half year
02:23 period.
02:24 He never did.
02:25 He never asserted it in a lawful way.
02:28 What did he do?
02:29 He obstructed the subpoena, both subpoenas.
02:33 You've said before that at its core,
02:35 this is an obstruction case because you
02:36 say if he gave the documents back,
02:38 he would have never been indicted.
02:40 But what do you say to Republicans,
02:41 and this includes 2024 GOP candidates, who say,
02:45 it's unfair for him to be prosecuted for that.
02:47 They say it's a process crime.
02:49 It's-- I mean, this is a grand jury subpoena asking
02:55 for the documents.
02:57 And he makes his lawyer-- puts his lawyer
02:59 in a position of making a false statement
03:01 that a full search was made when he knew it wasn't,
03:04 and in fact, prevented the lawyer from making it.
03:06 I mean, that's the essence of obstruction,
03:09 obstruction of a grand jury.
03:10 It doesn't get more serious than that.
03:14 What would you say-- he just brought on two new attorneys,
03:16 Todd Blanch in April, John Laro just now.
03:18 I mean, given what has happened with other attorneys
03:22 that he's had, what would you-- what's
03:23 your advice to his attorneys?
03:24 Do you have any?
03:25 Get a lot of insurance.
03:32 They'll be spending a lot of time themselves at some point,
03:35 you know, before grand juries are answering questions
03:39 or as witnesses in investigations.
03:42 He's spending a lot of money on legal fees, too.
03:44 His political action committee spent more than $40 million
03:47 on legal fees already this year.
03:50 I mean, what is it-- what do you make of his supporters,
03:52 his political supporters, giving him money to his campaign,
03:55 and he then uses that for his legal fees
03:57 and his co-defendants' legal fees?
03:59 Yeah, I find that sort of nauseating.
04:03 This guy claims to be a multi-billionaire,
04:06 and he goes out and raises money from hardworking class--
04:10 hardworking people, small donors,
04:13 and tells them this is to defend America
04:15 and to take care of the elect-- he
04:18 didn't provide any significant support during the '22
04:22 elections.
04:24 And a lot of this money seems to be going to his legal fees.
04:28 You just mentioned earlier that you
04:30 don't believe in the weaponization of the Justice
04:32 Department.
04:33 That's something we often hear from members of Congress
04:36 who are loyal to him after he gets indicted in these cases.
04:39 I mean, does that undermine trust in the department
04:42 that you used to lead?
04:44 Does what undermine it?
04:45 When Republicans come out and say,
04:47 this is a two-tiered justice system--
04:49 No, I mean, I do think that there is a double standard.
04:53 I think it's sometimes--
04:54 From whom?
04:55 I think that the department tends
04:57 to go far more aggressively after Republican--
04:59 or allegations of Republican wrongdoing than Democrat.
05:03 And I've seen it myself.
05:04 I've lived through it.
05:05 I've seen it.
05:06 Now, it's not as pervasive as is represented.
05:10 And it's not automatic.
05:13 And I think there's still many, many great prosecutors
05:17 in the department who can check their politics
05:19 and be fair to whoever it is, regardless of their politics.
05:22 But I do think that there's some political actors
05:24 in the department.
05:25 And I'm glad that Chairman Comer is
05:27 conducting his investigation.
05:29 Well, speaking of that, one thing we've heard is that--
05:32 you mentioned Hunter Biden earlier.
05:34 David Weiss, the Trump-appointed US attorney
05:36 who is handling that investigation--
05:38 did you ever consider making him special counsel
05:41 before you left office?
05:44 Yes, I did consider it.
05:47 But I felt that--
05:49 a couple of things.
05:50 One, I didn't want to set a precedent of setting--
05:54 on the way out the door of appointing a special counsel
05:58 to investigate, essentially, the children
06:00 of the incoming president and the family
06:02 of the incoming president.
06:04 I think that would become sort of de rigueur,
06:07 and it would be a bad development.
06:09 Second, I didn't think there was a basis for me to do it,
06:11 because our department didn't have a conflict of interest.
06:14 And it had to be left up to Garland
06:16 to make that decision for his department.
06:18 He had the one-- he had to determine
06:21 whether he had a conflict and he should
06:23 bring in a special counsel.
06:26 And if I preempted that decision,
06:27 I thought it would give them the basis for saying,
06:30 this was a political move, and we're going to terminate him.
06:33 We're just going to kick it out.
06:35 And it would have given them cover, I think,
06:37 to end the investigation.
06:39 I believed he would keep the investigation going
06:41 and keep Weiss in place, and he did.
06:44 Trump has promised that if he gets back into office--
06:47 he's very blatant about this, about using the Justice
06:50 Department to go after his political opponents.
06:54 Do you worry that he would weaponize it
06:56 if he was back in office?
06:59 Absolutely.
07:00 And that's why I think it's so ironic all these people are
07:02 getting huffy about weaponization, which
07:04 they should, because we can't go tit for tat.
07:08 But Trump, as you say--
07:11 I mean, he's very clear about it.
07:12 I think there's no question that he
07:14 believes these institutions should
07:16 be used to go after his enemies.