CLNS Media's Jackson Tolliver fills in for Bob Ryan to review the first round of the NBA playoffs. They discuss the passing of the torch from James, Curry, and Durant to Tatum, Brunson, and Edwards. They cover the dominance of Nikola Jokic and the threat that Jamal Murray brings come playoff time. Their conversation then shifts to the Orlando-Cleveland series, who the Celtics could play next round, and how Boston will fare without Kristaps Porzingis.
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00:00 (upbeat music)
00:02 - Two legends in basketball analysis,
00:09 with over 70 years combined experience.
00:13 This is the Bob Ryan and Jeff Goodman podcast.
00:17 - NBA, some college, a little bit of everything.
00:20 - You know what can I say?
00:21 But it wasn't gonna happen here with him.
00:23 I was okay with it,
00:24 because it wasn't about talent I didn't think.
00:26 - All right, it's that time folks,
00:27 the Bob Ryan Gary Tangling Zoom and Pod
00:30 brought to you by PrizePix,
00:31 your exclusive daily fantasy part of CLNX Media.
00:34 Pick more, pick less, it's that easy with PrizePix.
00:37 Bob Ryan, a little under the weather.
00:39 So we have one of my prize pupils
00:41 from my sports radio class at Emerson,
00:43 Jackson Tolliver is with us.
00:45 And here's the thing with these young guys,
00:47 these young guys I'll tell you,
00:48 they remember everything, they watch everything,
00:52 they have no life, they have no responsibility, okay?
00:55 So this kid, I mean, this kid's the real deal.
00:57 He is an NBA encyclopedia.
00:59 He will not disappoint.
01:01 And one of these days I have to get
01:03 he and Ryan on at the same time,
01:04 'cause Bob Ryan is as well.
01:06 So it'll be the young versus the old.
01:08 All right, Jackson, welcome to the show, kiddo.
01:10 Listen, do you think the playoffs have been disappointing
01:15 as far as the level of competition?
01:19 - Oh, I would say yes and no.
01:24 I think there's been some series that have been duds
01:26 and some series that have been great.
01:27 The New York Philadelphia series
01:30 that just ended yesterday was fantastic.
01:32 It ended up being a plus one point differential
01:34 to New York, meaning they scored just one more point
01:38 than Philly if you add up their point totals
01:40 throughout the entire series.
01:42 That was great.
01:43 There have been some sweeps, there have been some duds.
01:46 Minnesota sweeping Phoenix is something
01:48 that I think none of us saw coming.
01:50 I certainly thought that that was gonna go deeper,
01:52 six or seven games maybe.
01:54 But shout out to Anthony Edwards
01:56 and all of the Minnesota Timberwolves
01:58 for making that series go by quick.
02:01 Denver, Los Angeles, I think ending in five,
02:06 not as much of a shock as that Phoenix Timberwolves series,
02:11 but still that one's going by.
02:12 So yeah, I see where you're coming from.
02:14 - I'm kinda bored though.
02:15 Like I'm sitting here and I'm looking over the notes.
02:17 I'm looking over the notes for you and I to talk, right?
02:19 I'm going, the only thing so far
02:23 that's been worth talking about is New York and Philly.
02:25 And even Philly is kinda hollow
02:28 because Embiid isn't healthy.
02:31 - Well, you had this Orlando-Cleveland series
02:34 and the Dallas Clippers series.
02:35 - Okay, snoozeville, all right.
02:37 Orlando and Cleveland, they're not big market teams.
02:41 And I have no way, please.
02:43 Look, have you been to Cleveland?
02:45 - I started off my college career there,
02:48 Case Williams Reserve University.
02:49 - So you know what I'm talking about.
02:51 But I mean, Cleveland, Orlando, I'm sorry.
02:53 That's nice.
02:54 Okay, you're invited to the party, whatever,
02:56 but you don't really matter.
02:57 And the same thing, the Dallas is a good story.
03:01 I mean, good for them,
03:02 but that doesn't really matter either.
03:04 I just think we've been,
03:05 I think they've been kinda disappointing to be quite honest.
03:08 I mean, the New York,
03:09 I wanna talk about the Knicks in depth.
03:10 The Knicks are a great story.
03:11 We'll get to that in a minute.
03:12 But I mean, I'm like looking at Phoenix
03:14 and I'm like, what happened?
03:16 And the Lakers didn't put up a fight at all.
03:19 And thank God we have Minnesota and Denver.
03:21 Really, if I'm sitting in the commissioner's office,
03:23 I'm like, Jesus, come on guys, let's get something going.
03:28 - Well, it sounds like what you're saying
03:29 is that it's more about the market size.
03:30 Like, you know, you talk about Cleveland as a city.
03:32 - About the size of the market size, you're right.
03:34 - And you talk about Orlando as you know,
03:36 like Cleveland and Orlando aren't big name cities.
03:38 Like, you know, we don't have Golden State this year.
03:40 We don't have San Francisco, right?
03:42 So that's a big one off the board.
03:44 We're lucky enough to have New York still,
03:46 as you know, New York is the 1A market that's left.
03:49 - But even in Jackson, like there's no Steph,
03:51 there's no LeBron, there's no Durant, there's no-
03:54 - Well, it's passing the torch.
03:55 I mean, you know, it's, yeah, it's,
03:58 this playoff so far has been representative
04:01 of passing the torch.
04:02 KD, Steph, and LeBron are all out, right?
04:05 Imagine that happening five years ago or 10 years ago.
04:08 It was just unfathomable that we would go
04:10 into a second round without any of those three guys.
04:13 And now it's Tatum, it's Edwards, it's Brunson,
04:16 it's Jokic, of course, it's, you know,
04:19 the passing of the guard almost,
04:20 where you have these guys that are now up and coming
04:23 and future faces of the league.
04:25 I would argue Jokic is the best player
04:26 in the league right now.
04:27 - Best player in the world.
04:28 - He doesn't have the marketability of LeBron
04:30 and Steph and KD just yet, but you know,
04:32 this is the second coming.
04:35 These guys are the next generation.
04:37 - But Jokic, though-
04:38 - And they're gonna be the ones taking over.
04:38 - Yeah, you're right.
04:39 And I wanna get your thoughts seriously
04:41 on Cleveland and Orlando in a minute,
04:43 'cause you obviously, you're a basketball junkie
04:44 and you've paid attention.
04:46 Jokic will never have the notoriety
04:51 because he doesn't want it.
04:52 I've seen him in one commercial.
04:54 He's been in one commercial,
04:57 and I think it's the one that Chris Rock,
04:59 it's for the NBA, he had to do it.
05:01 - Yeah, he's in the promos this year.
05:04 - Yeah, for the playoffs, the playoffs,
05:05 it's a thing, it's not a thing.
05:07 Great promo.
05:08 He's in it.
05:09 That guy is losing hundreds of millions of dollars.
05:14 - Well, he's into his horse racing
05:16 and I remember last year when they won the series,
05:20 they asked him after the game in the press conference,
05:21 "Are you excited for the parade?"
05:22 He said, "What parade?
05:23 "I thought I was going home today."
05:25 They told him it was on Thursday
05:26 and he looked a little pissed off.
05:29 He is such an interesting guy
05:31 because basketball and the NBA,
05:33 so many people think of it as a dream
05:35 and as such a blessing to be able
05:37 to play basketball at that level.
05:39 That's just his job.
05:40 That's his nine to five, is what it seems like.
05:42 And that's not to say that he's not competitive
05:45 and he doesn't care when he's in the game.
05:46 No, he's a super competitive guy.
05:47 We've seen him screaming,
05:49 but he just has other hobbies that are outside of basketball
05:52 when a lot of the other guys live and breed this stuff
05:55 and will never be able to get to that level.
05:57 So he's just a naturally talented athlete
06:01 and he's just a gifted basketball player.
06:03 - Here's a question for you.
06:04 To me, nobody, well, I'm gonna go old bastard on you.
06:12 When it comes to one player controlling a game,
06:17 like controlling a game, and it's very,
06:19 it's not easy to do.
06:21 It's not as easy as people think.
06:23 - Right.
06:25 - Russell did it defensively.
06:27 Okay, that's old bastard Tanguy talking to you.
06:29 - Yep, I definitely wasn't around yet.
06:31 - Michael Jordan.
06:32 LeBron.
06:37 - Yeah, you got the LeBron in there.
06:39 - And now Jokic.
06:41 And I think that Jokic controls the game the way Jordan did.
06:46 - Okay, in terms of-
06:50 - Not the same style.
06:51 Work with me for a minute here.
06:53 Not the same style,
06:55 but Jokic will have 15 assists and two points
06:59 and totally control the game.
07:01 Jordan would control the game with steals and defense.
07:04 He started winning when he actually started passing
07:07 to Paxton and those guys in Kerr.
07:10 But you know what I mean?
07:11 And I don't know if Jokic is ever gonna be recognized
07:14 for that.
07:15 Like if you look at player to player-
07:16 - He won't.
07:17 - And he won't because he's not flashy
07:19 and he doesn't have a Nike deal.
07:21 - Yeah, you know, the kids these days talk about aura.
07:24 A player having an aura about them.
07:27 Some players have it and some players don't.
07:30 Jokic is an incredibly gifted player
07:32 and it's hard to argue that he's not the best player
07:35 in the NBA right now, but he doesn't have that aura.
07:37 He doesn't have that cool factor that Jordan had,
07:41 that Allen Iverson had.
07:43 Today, like Jason Tatum has, Jimmy Butler has it.
07:47 So that's another factor of like,
07:49 how marketable are you outside of the sport itself.
07:52 But going back to what you said about controlling the game,
07:55 yeah, I mean, for now it's like him and Bede and Giannis
07:59 are the guys that are just so dominant in what they do
08:03 and just control the game really on both ends,
08:06 particularly more so with,
08:08 I would say Bede and Giannis are better defenders
08:09 than Jokic, but what Jokic is able to do,
08:12 I mean, automatic triple double.
08:14 Basically, every time he steps out,
08:17 you have to game plan entirely for him
08:18 and then that's what makes Denver so good
08:21 is that they have Jamal Murray,
08:23 who is one of the strangest players in the NBA
08:27 in that throughout the whole regular season,
08:29 he's just your average Joe.
08:31 I guess you're slightly above average Joe.
08:33 And then he comes into the playoffs
08:35 and he turns into prime Michael Jordan.
08:36 It's the most bizarre thing in the world with Jamal Murray
08:39 and that's what makes Denver so dangerous
08:41 is that you have Jokic,
08:42 who's able to control the game so much
08:44 and then you're like, oh yeah,
08:45 we gotta worry about this guy who's,
08:47 you know, we saw what he did to the Lakers, right?
08:50 He ended their game twice and put them away in five games.
08:54 - So, all right, well, let's now,
08:57 I had a question there, I just spaced it for a minute.
09:02 Sorry, it'll come back to me.
09:03 That's all right, it'll come back to me later on.
09:05 All right, now let's move,
09:06 I'm gonna let you talk about Cleveland, Orlando
09:07 from a basketball perspective.
09:10 - Okay.
09:11 - From a basketball perspective,
09:13 why do you like that series?
09:17 'Cause I'm not paying attention to it.
09:19 - Yeah, I've watched just about every game
09:21 of the playoffs so far.
09:23 And this series is definitely
09:24 one of the more competitive ones,
09:26 but it didn't start out that way.
09:27 Cleveland had two really convincing wins against them.
09:30 I thought Cleveland had a chance to sweep
09:32 and then they got embarrassed in game three.
09:34 They lost by 38, almost 40.
09:38 They couldn't get anything going.
09:39 Paulo Banqueiro looked like a God amongst men.
09:42 And game four, they also had a pretty embarrassing loss.
09:45 I believe that one was around 25 or so.
09:48 And then game five, it was a really close Cleveland win.
09:50 So it's gone the direction of the home team
09:51 has won every time.
09:53 And that's kind of what you would expect
09:54 with teams that are, I mean, Orlando is a super young team.
09:58 No one's really expecting them to do anything this year.
10:00 Paulo Banqueiro, it's just his second year.
10:03 He's a future star.
10:05 He definitely is, I would say he's a future superstar.
10:08 He's a star right now, but he's on the way up.
10:10 And Cleveland, you have Donovan Mitchell,
10:12 but you have guys like Mobley, Garland, who are good,
10:16 but they're still young and they don't have
10:17 that playoff success yet.
10:18 And that is what a home court advantage can do for you.
10:22 Makes you feel comfortable.
10:23 The crowd's getting behind you.
10:25 I mean, that's why teams are statistically
10:27 usually better at home.
10:29 So that's what I kind of expected for this series
10:31 because these teams are so young
10:32 and they need that sort of oomph,
10:34 that fan support to put them over the edge,
10:36 which is why I have Orlando winning tonight's game.
10:39 And this one's going to seven,
10:40 which means Celtics fans are gonna have to wait
10:42 until Tuesday for the second round to start.
10:45 But this is an interesting series.
10:46 It's a lot of size, physicality.
10:48 Cleveland obviously has that double big lineup
10:51 with Mobley and Allen,
10:52 but it's matched up pretty well in Orlando
10:55 where they have size basically all across the board.
10:57 The Wagner brothers are tall.
10:59 Paulo Banqueiro is tall.
11:02 So they have a lot of that size
11:03 and strength and physicality.
11:05 And going into the second round against the Celtics,
11:07 either one of them I think can give them a tough time
11:09 because of their size.
11:11 - Okay, when you say a tough time,
11:13 like I mean, how tough, how much of an impact?
11:15 Because you're looking, people think it's whoever wins,
11:18 the Celtics are gonna win in six, minimum.
11:21 - Yeah, I would say six if Cleveland wins
11:24 and five if Orlando wins.
11:25 And the only reason why I say five if Orlando wins
11:27 is because of the inexperience.
11:30 I think that Celtics are gonna easily win
11:32 the first two games at home against Orlando.
11:35 Orlando will steal one, if not two,
11:38 and then Celtics will wrap it up in five.
11:39 Cleveland concerns me because there's no KP.
11:43 So the rebounding is gonna be tough.
11:46 Because, and again, that also depends on Jarrett Allen,
11:49 who's dealing with a rib injury right now.
11:51 He was out for game five.
11:53 I don't know his status for tonight,
11:55 but if he was unable to play also,
11:57 that would help the Celtics.
11:59 But it's gonna be tough to get over the hump
12:01 without Porzingis in this matchup.
12:04 If it's Cleveland, if it's Orlando,
12:05 I think it's easier because they have,
12:07 it's like they also have size,
12:08 but they don't have that double big.
12:09 So I'm a little bit less concerned.
12:11 But there's no way that either one of these teams
12:14 beat the Celtics in Miami.
12:15 It would take a colossal meltdown for that to happen.
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13:13 Okay, now I remember the question that I forgot before.
13:18 Is Webanyama the next big thing?
13:21 Because we talked about,
13:23 the reason I brought this up,
13:24 'cause we just talked about, you know, the Joker
13:27 and he doesn't wanna be the star.
13:29 And while you mentioned all those other players,
13:33 they're all terrific players,
13:34 but I don't know if they're that thing,
13:37 that, you know, Bird Magic, Michael, LeBron,
13:40 I think we're kind of in a valley a little bit.
13:43 So is he the guy?
13:45 Is Webanyama gonna be the next big thing?
13:47 I mean, he's definitely the next big thing
13:50 in terms of his physical size.
13:51 He's a specimen.
13:53 But I know what you mean in terms of like,
13:55 is he the next up?
13:57 Like at 24 years old, is he gonna be phenomenal?
14:01 I don't see why not.
14:02 I mean, he has all the skills, the fundamentals,
14:04 the size to be that way.
14:06 He had a great, great rookie season.
14:07 He's gonna be rookie of the year.
14:09 He's probably gonna be first team all defense,
14:12 I would say.
14:13 He led the league in blocks per game.
14:14 So he has the two way abilities
14:17 that can put him in that upper echelon of players.
14:21 A lot of people are saying that the Spurs
14:22 are kind of the dark horse,
14:24 the elephant in the room, if you will,
14:26 for the years to come.
14:28 It's OKC and San Antonio,
14:30 especially if they can add pieces around Webanyama.
14:32 But yeah, I mean, if he works on that,
14:35 you know, pull up game,
14:36 like if he can blend Kevin Durant with Shaquille O'Neal
14:40 and combine those two games together,
14:42 yeah, I don't see how you can stop that.
14:44 He has a long way to go before he's there,
14:47 but all the talent is there.
14:50 And I, you know, from what I've heard,
14:51 his work ethic is there.
14:52 I've heard this kid doesn't party, he doesn't drink.
14:53 - Right. - You know,
14:54 he's fully locked in.
14:56 So I don't see why not.
14:58 And he also has the luxury of having
15:00 one of the greatest coaches ever in the association,
15:03 in Greg Popovich. - Oh yeah.
15:05 - You know, who knows how much longer
15:06 he's gonna be sticking around.
15:07 - Oh, he's sticking around now.
15:08 - If I was picking one guy to develop me,
15:10 like, yeah, that'd be the guy
15:13 'cause he's a winning coach, he's a great coach.
15:15 - I thought Pop would be gone.
15:16 Pop even said, you know, after Duncan leaves,
15:18 he's out, he's stuck around and he's got this kid.
15:20 I don't think he's going anywhere.
15:23 - Why would you?
15:24 - Great opportunity in front of you
15:26 to develop the next face.
15:27 - With the Knicks, I wanna get back to the Knicks right now.
15:30 - Okay.
15:31 - If they were not a New York,
15:34 and if they weren't the Knicks,
15:36 they would be my second favorite team in the NBA.
15:38 I mean, if you're a basketball--
15:41 - You guys are, yeah.
15:42 - How can you not love their, you love these guys.
15:44 I mean, I love Thibodeau.
15:46 I knew Thibodeau a little bit, love Thibs.
15:49 You know, the Brunson kid has exceeded
15:50 everybody's expectations.
15:52 Had a big night the other night.
15:53 I mean, I love them.
15:57 - They, I mentioned Aura.
15:59 This Knicks team has the most Aura out of any team maybe,
16:03 besides maybe Anthony Edwards on the Timberwolves.
16:05 - Yeah.
16:06 - And you know, a lot of it is because
16:09 these guys all played together, right?
16:10 Devin Chenzo, Hart, and Brunson all played
16:12 on the same college team, so they have that chemistry.
16:15 They're so much fun to watch, especially Brunson.
16:18 I mean, you mentioned that he exceeded
16:20 a lot of expectations.
16:21 I thought the Knicks were crazy for giving him
16:23 the money that they did.
16:24 - And you're filling in for Bob Ryan said the same thing.
16:27 - Yeah, I thought they were crazy.
16:30 Yes, he played well in the stretches
16:32 that Luka was out on the Mavericks,
16:34 but I did not think that he was a 1A player,
16:36 and that was, I don't think I've ever been more wrong
16:39 about anything in the NBA.
16:42 I mean, he is a star.
16:44 He is a superstar.
16:45 There are times this season where he's been
16:47 the best player in the East.
16:49 Better than Giannis, better than Tatum,
16:51 better than Embiid.
16:52 Like there have been times when he's been that guy.
16:55 He struggled in the first two games of this series,
16:57 shooting wise, maybe some playoff jitters.
17:00 He obviously still, actually I shouldn't say
17:02 he doesn't have playoff experience,
17:03 because he did have some nice runs at the Mavericks there,
17:05 but he doesn't have a lot of experience being the guy,
17:09 the 1A, 'cause he was playing with Luka
17:11 for a lot of that time.
17:12 Last year they went two rounds before losing to the Heat,
17:15 who eventually went to the NBA Finals,
17:17 and this year now they're here.
17:17 So he struggled in the first two games,
17:19 but yeah, 40 something last night.
17:21 - Oh yeah.
17:22 - He, I mean, he's a star.
17:25 And Josh Hart is the exact type of player
17:27 that everyone wants on your team.
17:29 He is the perfect role player, knows his job,
17:33 can give you 48 minutes, no problem, incredible stamina.
17:37 He is just everything that you want,
17:39 great defensive player.
17:40 Devin Chenzo can knock down timely shots.
17:42 OGN and OB, one of the best pickups of the season
17:45 in the entire NBA.
17:47 The perfect three and D guy.
17:48 He's the perfect compliment to them.
17:50 If they had kept with RJ Barrett,
17:53 it's a totally different story.
17:54 He just compliments them so much better than RJ Barrett did
17:57 because they didn't need scoring, they needed defense.
17:59 And OGN and OB has been someone
18:01 who's been on the trade block,
18:03 in the rumor mills for a long time
18:04 because of his ability to guard
18:07 just about anyone on the court
18:09 and knock down threes when called upon.
18:12 And that's his job and he does it very well.
18:14 And the Knicks have been borderline unbeatable
18:16 while OG is on the court.
18:17 Now, if you still had Randle in the mix as well,
18:20 this would be a very, very scary team
18:23 that would definitely be championship contenders.
18:25 And that's not to say that they're not.
18:27 I would say they certainly are,
18:28 but they're gonna have a tough time getting through Boston,
18:31 especially a fully healthy Boston.
18:33 If Porzingis is able to return
18:34 by the Eastern Conference Finals,
18:36 they're gonna have trouble getting by them
18:37 just because of size.
18:39 But yeah, I mean, it's hard not to root for these guys
18:43 because it's such an inspiring story.
18:46 Like, Hartenstein also, let's talk about that guy.
18:49 I mean, nobody, nobody thought that he was gonna be
18:52 as good as he is right now.
18:53 He's playing so well out of his mind
18:56 and the whole team, top to bottom, is just remarkable.
18:59 And they're so likable.
19:00 They have their podcast, Hart and Brunson,
19:03 and you're right, it's tough not to like them.
19:05 It's tough not to root for them.
19:07 But if it comes to the Eastern Conference Finals,
19:09 I think you know what all's gonna be
19:10 in the planning against Boston.
19:11 - We know the, yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:12 We know who we're going for with that.
19:14 Playoff time, there is nothing like it.
19:17 I mean, the energy, the effort amps up a good 50 to 75%
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20:56 - Is there gonna be any fallout in Milwaukee?
20:58 Or do they just bring it back for next year?
21:01 That's the one thing that's gonna figure out.
21:03 - Well, Dame said last night in the postgame
21:07 that he is eager for another year in Milwaukee.
21:11 You don't know how much water,
21:13 you know, you can, or how much weight you can put there.
21:16 We all remember Kyrie Irving with the Celtics
21:18 told everyone he was gonna resign
21:19 at the beginning of the year.
21:20 We all know how that went.
21:23 He's still on a contract with them.
21:25 And here's the thing.
21:27 Dame wants to be in Miami.
21:28 We all know that.
21:29 We knew that last summer.
21:31 He was very adamant that he wanted to be in Miami.
21:34 And the league stepped in and said,
21:36 "Hey, you can't really do that."
21:37 And he backtracked and said, "Nope, I'll go anywhere.
21:40 "I'll go anywhere I want."
21:41 He didn't wanna come to Boston.
21:43 We knew that.
21:44 Like Milwaukee was always kind of there
21:47 because it would be interesting.
21:48 Everyone thought it'd be interesting
21:49 to see him paired up with Giannis.
21:52 But it was always Miami until the day he got traded.
21:55 Everybody thought he was going to Miami.
21:57 And then he was traded to Milwaukee
21:58 and it comes out that he's going through a divorce.
22:00 And he comes out saying, you know,
22:01 "I've had some really tough times
22:02 "because I've never been to Milwaukee.
22:04 "I assume there's not a lot to do there."
22:07 You know, and it gets cold.
22:09 It's definitely no Miami.
22:11 - No Miami, man.
22:11 - He wanted to be in Miami.
22:12 - Milwaukee, I will say this, young man.
22:15 - Better than Cleveland?
22:15 - Milwaukee is better than Cleveland
22:17 and it's an underrated town.
22:19 - Okay, fair enough.
22:20 But it's not Miami, you would say.
22:22 - It's not Miami, no.
22:23 - Yeah, so he wants to be in Miami on the beach,
22:27 you know, and I think that that system
22:29 would suit him very well.
22:31 So if he ends up going anywhere,
22:33 I think that's where it's gonna be.
22:35 But again, it's tough to look at this Milwaukee Bucks team
22:37 and say, "Blow it up,"
22:38 because Giannis wasn't playing the whole time.
22:41 And throughout the entire regular season,
22:44 as a Celtics fan,
22:44 Milwaukee was the team that I was the most afraid of.
22:47 - We all were.
22:47 - Because they stomped the Celtics twice at home.
22:50 Like, embarrassing stomped.
22:53 And you know, yet again, the second one,
22:56 the Celtics weren't really playing
22:57 'cause they had already clinched the one seed
22:59 in the league or whatever, whatever.
23:00 But the first one, which was in like February or March,
23:04 yeah, that was just straight up embarrassing.
23:06 And that was a disgusting performance from the Celtics.
23:09 And I was very nervous about the possibility
23:13 of playing Milwaukee in the Eastern Conference Finals.
23:16 And last night, before the game,
23:17 when they were saying, "Dan's coming back,
23:18 "Giannis is trying to come back, he could be good to go,"
23:21 I was thinking Milwaukee's gonna force seven
23:23 and end up somehow in Eastern Conference Finals.
23:26 Luckily, for Celtics fans, that didn't happen.
23:30 But you know, I would have a hard time,
23:33 if I was the GM, blowing this whole thing up.
23:37 There are some changes you have to make.
23:38 I think Brook Lopez, it's tough to justify keeping him
23:43 and Bobby Portis as well.
23:44 Bobby Portis still has some trade value
23:46 and they need some youth on that team.
23:48 That's really what it comes down to.
23:49 I mean, they got that kid, Andre Jackson, who balls.
23:53 They need more of that intensity and energy
23:57 and defense as well.
23:58 After losing Drew, they fell off defensively pretty hard.
24:01 And you know, that's expected if you lose one of,
24:05 if not the best perimeter defender in the entire NBA.
24:10 But they need to adjust and figure out
24:12 how they can get some of that defensive intensity back.
24:15 - I would bring it back.
24:16 I mean, if I'm the owner, I'm not letting anybody go.
24:19 You hope that Giannis is healthy
24:20 and you give it another shot.
24:22 They screwed up the coaching situation
24:24 and you gotta stick with one guy and stick with the doc
24:27 and give him a chance to do it and make another run at it.
24:31 - You have to stick with your personnel.
24:32 I mean, MB last night after they lost,
24:34 said that, you know, every year that he's been there,
24:38 it's been something different.
24:40 - Right.
24:41 - And if you look at a team like Denver or Golden State,
24:44 they were able to be successful
24:46 because they stuck with their core guys
24:48 throughout a long period of time
24:50 and gave them time to mesh.
24:52 Jamal Murray and Jokic had been together
24:54 for like seven or eight years.
24:56 Murray even tore his ACL and was out for a whole year
24:58 and they didn't panic.
24:59 They stuck with their guys
25:00 and they kept going until it worked.
25:02 And now they're, if not second favorites to win,
25:06 the favorites.
25:06 So yeah, I would definitely agree with you.
25:09 I think you have to run it back.
25:11 This season is a wash.
25:13 You didn't have your best player
25:14 who's gonna be all NBA in the playoffs.
25:17 And you can't look at this series as a failure
25:21 because of that simple fact.
25:24 - Because of the things that you say, we all say,
25:26 well, the Celtics are lucky that the Knicks aren't healthy.
25:31 Or if Milwaukee was 100%,
25:34 the Celtics could really be in trouble
25:37 in the Eastern Conference Finals if they met them there.
25:40 So when you say things like that, and not just you,
25:42 but are we overrating the Celtics?
25:45 - No, because the Celtics had a historically great season
25:50 where they finished fourth in net rating.
25:54 I would take the Celtics over any team in the NBA
25:59 in a seven game series, unless they just beat themselves.
26:03 That being said, Denver's tough.
26:06 - Wait, you would take the Celtics straight up
26:08 in a seven game series over Denver?
26:10 - Yeah, I was just gonna get into that.
26:13 Denver's tough, but yes, I would.
26:15 Based off talent alone and based off-
26:17 - I am not, I'm taking Denver all the way,
26:19 but go ahead, elaborate.
26:21 - Based off the box, the roster, top to bottom,
26:25 Boston is a better team in terms of who you have
26:30 on the roster than Denver.
26:33 Boston performed better in the regular season than Denver.
26:36 Yes, Denver beat Boston 2-0.
26:38 Denver has a better coach.
26:41 Denver has a better 1A than anybody else
26:43 who is basically unguardable.
26:45 You can't contain Nikola Jokic, you just can't.
26:48 So Denver is definitely the biggest threat
26:50 to Boston's banner this year,
26:53 which is why I, and I think a lot of other Celtics fans,
26:56 should be pulling for Minnesota in this series.
26:58 I think that's an easier matchup if they can squeak it out.
27:02 But I agree with you, it's gonna be tough if you're Denver.
27:05 But to go back on your question of
27:07 if the Celtics are overrated, no,
27:10 because they did everything in the regular season
27:11 to prove that they're legit,
27:13 to prove that they have the potential to win a banner.
27:17 So I wouldn't say they're overrated at all.
27:18 This path to the finals that they've been
27:21 absolutely blessed with is too good
27:23 of an opportunity to squander,
27:25 even with or without Christophe Porzingis,
27:27 because you had a very injured Miami
27:29 without their best player, 4-1.
27:31 Should've been a sweep, frankly.
27:33 I was disappointed that it wasn't 4-0.
27:35 Now you have either Cleveland or Orlando,
27:37 and Cleveland might give you some trouble.
27:39 Orlando could also give you some trouble.
27:41 But if you look at teams like what you could've had,
27:43 a healthy Bucks team, a healthy New York team,
27:45 a healthy Philly team.
27:46 I'd even rather have these two teams than Indiana,
27:48 who gave the Celtics trouble during the regular season.
27:50 Okay, that's easy.
27:52 Then you go to the Eastern Conference Finals,
27:54 you either have a very injured New York team,
27:57 Indiana, yeah, it's either New York or Indiana at this point,
28:02 'cause Philly's out and Milwaukee's out.
28:05 So that again, it's like,
28:07 that should be easy for the Celtics.
28:09 So they should have a very easy run of the finals,
28:11 and if they don't, it's gonna be incredibly disappointing.
28:13 But no, I don't think this team is overrated at all.
28:15 I think they're properly rated.
28:17 And the way that they're rated is,
28:19 they were so good during the regular season,
28:21 it was like a top five Celtics record in franchise history,
28:25 and they should be the favorites.
28:28 So no, I don't think they're overrated at all.
28:30 - So you're saying if they lose to Denver in the title game,
28:33 it's because they beat themselves?
28:35 - That's what I would assume.
28:37 I would assume that they went with some
28:38 pretty ISO-heavy basketball instead of moving the ball.
28:42 I would assume that Jason Tatum or Jalen Brown
28:44 had a few stinkers of games.
28:46 Maybe both of them didn't show up.
28:47 I would assume Derek White played well.
28:51 I can't imagine Derek White playing badly in that series.
28:53 But I would assume that it would be a result
28:56 of Tatum or Brown, and if Christoph Porzingis can't go,
28:58 they're gonna get beaten on the glass,
28:59 and so on and so forth.
29:01 - I wanna get to Porzingis, but my feeling is,
29:04 I think they're getting to the finals,
29:05 and I think they're gonna face Denver.
29:07 I'm one of those guys that I want them to play Denver.
29:09 I had a big argument with Bob last time,
29:11 because the Celtics in '81, '84, and '86,
29:16 it was two times against Houston,
29:18 one time against the Lakers, and still,
29:21 I wish it had been the Lakers all three times.
29:23 But Bob's point is, look, you still had to beat the Rockets,
29:26 the Rockets beat the Lakers, so forth and so on.
29:29 But I want them to play Denver.
29:31 If they played Minnesota and won,
29:33 for me, it would be a little hollow.
29:36 I want them to play the best.
29:37 - No, I don't think there's such a thing
29:39 as a hollow championship.
29:40 I mean, a banner is a banner,
29:42 and I understand that point that, you know,
29:45 you don't want people to say that you had an easy road.
29:48 But also, Minnesota's legit.
29:50 You don't take any credit away from Minnesota.
29:53 Anthony Edwards, while I think he's becoming
29:55 a little bit overrated, I still don't think
29:57 he's in that top five player area.
30:00 He's a stud, and he's a future superstar.
30:03 He already is a superstar.
30:05 - Bob said, if there's one person
30:07 that could approach Jordan, it's him.
30:09 - No, I don't think so.
30:10 And I think we're a little bit too high on him
30:15 as a basketball community, just a little bit.
30:18 I think there's still five players in the NBA
30:19 who are better than him.
30:20 - Oh, who's better than him?
30:21 Who do we got?
30:22 - I would say Giannis, Jokic, Luka, Embiid.
30:27 - Oh, big guys.
30:29 - Maybe he's five.
30:30 - Tatum?
30:33 - No, no.
30:34 Tatum's, he's, Anthony Edwards is better
30:36 than Tatum at this point.
30:38 - Okay.
30:38 - But then again, that's also a tough one
30:40 because Tatum's on a more offensively talented team.
30:45 - Balanced team, yeah.
30:46 - Edwards is.
30:46 So Tatum has been, I mean, Tatum had 16 points
30:49 in the last game against Miami.
30:50 You look at that, you're like,
30:51 "Geez, only 16 points for Tatum."
30:52 But it was on nine shots.
30:53 So he just is in a situation where
30:55 he doesn't have to score as much, which is good.
30:57 It shows that he's more about the team right now
31:00 than his own numbers.
31:01 But it's tough to put him in that top five category
31:03 because he's not the, I mean, he's still the guy,
31:05 but he's not the only source of offense
31:07 for the Celtics team right now.
31:09 - Okay, so.
31:10 - So maybe he's fifth, maybe he's sixth,
31:11 and I'm sure there's someone that I'm stupidly forgetting,
31:14 but he took KD's spot for sure.
31:16 - Yeah, definitely.
31:17 - He embarrassed KD in that series.
31:20 And that Suns team, I don't know where they go from here.
31:24 I know you guys already talked about that on the pod,
31:26 so I won't get too into it, but.
31:28 - Minnesota, Denver.
31:29 What does Minnesota have to do to upset Denver?
31:32 - Minnesota has the best chance of containing Jokic
31:35 because of the way that team is constructed.
31:37 You have a double big lineup, you have Rudy Gobert,
31:39 who's gonna be the defensive player of the year.
31:41 - I would say in the perimeter.
31:42 - So that's, on the perimeter?
31:44 - Yeah, 'cause that's where Jokic is gonna be a lot.
31:47 - Well, you have Jaden McDaniels as well,
31:48 who's another incredible defender.
31:49 I mean, top to bottom, besides Mike Conley,
31:52 Minnesota's a great defensive team
31:54 in terms of their starting unit
31:55 and some of the guys that even bring off the bench.
31:57 So you have Gobert, who's gonna be in the paint.
31:59 He's probably the best run protector in the NBA.
32:02 You have McDaniels, who embarrassed KD as well,
32:06 who embarrassed really the entire Phoenix Suns team
32:08 with the way he was able to play defense,
32:09 and he's been great all year.
32:11 So you have to use that to your advantage.
32:14 And then offensively, if Anthony Edwards
32:17 is a top five player, and I'm wrong,
32:19 this is his chance to prove it.
32:20 If he wants to prove to the world that he is the guy
32:24 and that he has a chance to be a top player,
32:27 to be the face of this league,
32:28 if he wants to approach Jordan,
32:30 what a start this would be, right?
32:32 To beat KD and now go in and defeat the defending champs
32:36 who have home court advantage over you
32:38 and knock out Jokic and Jamal Murray.
32:42 It's a tall, tall order for any team to do,
32:45 but this is a place to start.
32:47 So yeah, for me, it's all about the defense.
32:49 Just keep doing what you've been doing.
32:51 Capitalize on the talent that you have.
32:54 And then on offense, let Anthony Edwards go
32:57 and let's see if he is that guy,
32:59 'cause this is his biggest test
33:00 he's ever had to face in his career so far.
33:03 - To wrap it up for Zingas, how bad is it?
33:08 Does he have to play the Eastern Conference Finals?
33:10 And obviously they need him for the finals.
33:13 - Well, I don't know.
33:16 It's tough to say.
33:18 If you told me today that his season was over,
33:20 I wouldn't think that the Celtics' title hopes are over
33:23 because there were 21 and four without him
33:25 during the regular season,
33:26 nine and three without him against the playoff teams.
33:29 Yes, he helps.
33:30 Yes, he's a great player.
33:32 But to me, poor Zingas is a luxury, not a necessity.
33:35 And what I mean by that is that Boston has enough talent
33:39 to win games without him, right?
33:41 We've seen what Jason Tatum can do on the biggest stage.
33:43 He dropped 15 game seven against Philly.
33:45 - You think he'll get Denver?
33:47 - Maybe.
33:48 I mean, the other thing with the Celtics' team
33:50 is that they play better with their backs against the wall.
33:52 They're down three-oh to Miami and they win three in a row
33:56 and then they're the favorites again
33:57 and they lose in game seven, right?
33:58 They're down three-two in Milwaukee the year before
34:00 and Tatum comes out and explodes for two games in a row.
34:03 They're down two games to Philly last year,
34:04 Tatum explodes for two games in a row.
34:06 So the team is sometimes better in the playoffs
34:09 when they need to be.
34:10 And of course, they haven't won a banner yet.
34:12 So that goes to only a certain point before it stops.
34:15 But you gotta trust and play off Al Horford.
34:18 I mean, Al Horford,
34:20 he's not gonna have the most eye-popping numbers,
34:22 but he's gonna have the hustle.
34:24 He is gonna play great defense
34:26 for as long as you need him to, 30 minutes.
34:29 Hopefully they can just keep him at 30 minutes.
34:30 And guess who you have coming out behind him?
34:32 Luke Cornett, who has actually emerged
34:34 as a very serviceable big man in this league.
34:36 I thought he's done a great job.
34:38 I thought he was great, what was it?
34:40 Two nights ago against Miami.
34:42 He held BAM on some really, really good opportunities
34:45 for him and played great defense, I thought.
34:47 So Luke Cornett, to me, is also serviceable.
34:50 And this is also why they went out and got Xavier Tillman.
34:52 For certain matchups, he can also be very serviceable.
34:55 He's tough, he's really good at defense.
34:57 Yes, both Cornett and Tillman don't even come close
35:00 to sniffing what Porzingis can do on offense,
35:03 but those guys can hold it down defensively.
35:05 So I think they'll be just fine.
35:07 I would love for them to rest him as long as possible.
35:11 And in the Eastern Conference Finals,
35:12 I'm predicting Celtics Knicks.
35:14 I don't think you need them for that series
35:16 because the Knicks don't have as much size.
35:19 So I think they can match up pretty well.
35:21 I would rather have Porzingis for this Cleveland series.
35:23 That might happen because he matches up
35:26 against the size better.
35:27 It would be nice to have him in New York
35:28 because he has that revenge mentality
35:31 because of how things shook up when he was in New York.
35:34 And I think he would be really good.
35:36 He's been really good against New York this year.
35:38 But yeah, the Finals is where you really need
35:40 all your guys firing away, especially if it's Denver.
35:42 And he's played well against Denver this year as well.
35:44 So it'd be really nice to have him back then.
35:46 But if he was to be shut down for the rest of the year,
35:48 which I don't think, from what I've heard,
35:50 is gonna happen, I wouldn't totally put it
35:52 past the Celtics to still be able to win this thing.
35:54 It'll be a little more difficult,
35:55 but I think they can still do it.
35:56 - I think he's back for the Finals.
35:58 My key for the Celtics in the Finals,
36:02 if they were to beat Denver,
36:04 Holiday has to control the offense
36:07 in the final two minutes of the game,
36:09 and they have to run offense.
36:10 And if they trust Holiday to quarterback
36:12 and get the ball to the right person, they can win it.
36:15 'Cause there's gonna be some close games.
36:17 I mean, there's not gonna be many blowouts, I don't think.
36:20 And they have to, in Holiday we trust.
36:22 And if they do that, 'cause he does have a ring,
36:26 I think they're in good shape.
36:28 - And I think, you know, I also trust Derek White
36:30 to be the guy taking the shots.
36:31 - Same thing, I agree, absolutely.
36:33 - He's the most clutch player, I think, on the team.
36:36 And I mean, the other thing that slightly concerns me,
36:39 before you wrap it up, about the Celtics
36:40 is that all four of their wins against Miami Heat
36:43 were blowouts.
36:45 I still am worried about their crunch time offense.
36:47 Like you said, in the Finals series versus Denver.
36:48 - No doubt, that's why you have
36:49 to have Drew Holliday running.
36:50 - None of those games are gonna be close, right.
36:51 So I agree, let Holiday play quarterback.
36:55 You don't even need him taking that many shots a game.
36:56 Maybe you do now to make up for that production
36:58 that you're losing with Porzingis.
37:00 But I think Derek White in the clutch should be the guy.
37:03 And what do teams do if they have to give that much energy
37:06 to Tatum, Brown, and now Derek White as well,
37:09 as high quality shot makers?
37:11 It's gonna be tough.
37:12 - Well, Jackson, next time we'll record it.
37:14 - You're a funny guy, you're a funny guy.
37:19 - Jackson Tolliver, filling in for Bob Ryan.
37:21 Did you ever think you would be filling in
37:23 for a Hall of Famer?
37:24 - Well, it's funny when the intro says
37:26 over 70 years combined experience.
37:28 I think I have about 70 minutes of experience.
37:29 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.
37:31 - So maybe 70 days.
37:34 - Maybe you can do something about that.
37:36 Okay, Bob Ryan, Gary Tangway, Zoomit Pod,
37:38 brought to you by PrizePix,
37:39 the exclusive fantasy partner of CLNS Media.
37:41 Pick more, pick less,
37:42 and set easy with PrizePix.
37:43 Jackson, great job.
37:45 And we will do it again soon.
37:48 - Appreciate you having me, man.
37:49 Take care.
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