A. Sherrod Blakely and Josue Pavon discuss the Celtics' schedule, games to look forward to seeing; Jayson Tatum and Team USA fall-out, Tatum's future with Team USA and now that his season is finally over, and what some things (3-point shooting) that Tatum need to work on.
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SportsTranscript
00:00:00Celtics Lab is brought to you by Price Picks and the Game Time app.
00:00:07All right, welcome to another episode of the Celtics Lab podcast.
00:00:10I am your guest host today, Alex Goldberg, taking the reigns from our guy,
00:00:14Cam Pebble Dubai, who is not with us today.
00:00:17He's on vacation. We're taking a little break.
00:00:19Instead, we are bringing in the legend, Howard Beck of the Ringer and of the,
00:00:26and sorry, could you just rename, restate your podcast name one more time?
00:00:30All good. It's The Real Ones with Logan Murdoch and Raja Bell and me.
00:00:36That's so cool.
00:00:37Good to see you guys. Good to join you.
00:00:39Sorry, I'm going to geek out about Raja Bell for a second.
00:00:42Like one of my favorite players to watch as a child.
00:00:45Don't say that. It'll just go to his head.
00:00:47I know. That's completely right.
00:00:51Well, fabulous. Thank you for joining us, Howard.
00:00:53We appreciate it. And we're going to jump in in just a second.
00:00:56First off, JQ, how are you doing today, Dr. Quinn?
00:01:00Well, while all you guys enjoy your fancy time off,
00:01:05I have a whole bunch of stuff I can't talk about.
00:01:08Internal employment stuff that is going to require me to do a bunch of fun things.
00:01:12So you never know how off-season is actually going to go.
00:01:16But I have a job. I'm thankful for that.
00:01:20That is true. You never know how the off-season is going to go.
00:01:22Although at this point, things are at least somewhat settled with the off-season.
00:01:26And we're going to get into that in just a minute.
00:01:30Before we get started, of course, this is the Celtics Lab podcast.
00:01:33And this episode of the Celtics Lab podcast is brought to you by PrizePix,
00:01:36the exclusive fantasy basketball partner of the CLNS Media Network.
00:01:40Celtics Lab is also brought to you by Game Time Tickets,
00:01:43last-minute tickets, lowest price guaranteed.
00:01:45And as we mentioned before, this episode,
00:01:47we're going to talk a few things about our predictions for last year
00:01:52and how they bore out what this next season might look like broadly
00:01:58and what we might think we'll see from the Celtics
00:02:00heading into next year by the end of the season.
00:02:03So we're going to jump right into it.
00:02:05Obviously, Howard, Boston Celtics and our beloved team
00:02:09had a very good year this year, winning the title in fairly dominant fashion.
00:02:15Things are looking good if you're a fan of the team in green.
00:02:20So we're going to go to you first.
00:02:24Give us, I guess, a sense of kind of what you were thinking about
00:02:29with regard to this Celtics team last summer around this time.
00:02:33We can kind of go from whatever period you want.
00:02:35Obviously, they made a couple of huge moves.
00:02:39Marcus Smart out the door, Malcolm Brogdon out the door,
00:02:42Rob Williams out the door.
00:02:45In comes Chris Daps Porzingis and Drew Holliday,
00:02:47two essential pieces of their ultimate title run.
00:02:50But around this time last year, what were you thinking about this team?
00:02:55So it's sometimes hard to remember that far back,
00:02:59but I do recall that when we were asked on TheRinger.com
00:03:04to make our predictions for the season,
00:03:06I think I went box over Lakers or something for the finals.
00:03:11That went well.
00:03:14But I think my box pick was one of those like coin flips.
00:03:17It was definitely like going to be box or Celtics.
00:03:20And at this time of year, meaning the offseason
00:03:23and all the way into October, I kind of always default to
00:03:29what I like to refer to as like the volatility index.
00:03:32Basically, it's I start looking at unknowns, right?
00:03:34I start you look at all the teams that have a plausible case to be made.
00:03:40As champions or at least finals entrance, right?
00:03:44Teams that can win their conference.
00:03:47And then within that group, you start going,
00:03:49all right, what do I what am I uncertain about?
00:03:51Where's the volatility?
00:03:53And for the Celtics, it was, well, Marcus Smart was really integral to this team.
00:03:59He meant a lot to them, not just as a player,
00:04:01but just spiritually, for lack of a better term.
00:04:04What does it mean for this Celtics team to not have Marcus Smart?
00:04:07I don't know.
00:04:08What does it mean to have him replaced by Drew Holiday?
00:04:11And Drew brings all these wonderful things to the table
00:04:14and check some of the same general boxes, though, in different ways.
00:04:20But still, it's a change.
00:04:22And one of the things I think I've learned in 27 years of covering this league is that
00:04:26sometimes a great team, you pull one thread,
00:04:30even if it was like the fourth man, the seventh man sometimes.
00:04:33And it changes everything in terms of just the chemistry
00:04:36or maybe it's the locker room conscience.
00:04:38And that was certainly a Marcus Smart thing, right?
00:04:40Like he was the locker room conscience.
00:04:42He's the guy who could call out Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum
00:04:44earlier in their careers when somebody needed to check them.
00:04:49So I just wasn't sure.
00:04:50And there was a lot of names out the door, right?
00:04:52Grant Williams, Robert Williams, Malcolm Brogdon, Porzingis.
00:04:56You know, love the outline of what Porzingis could mean to them.
00:04:59But he's never been on a team that's won anything.
00:05:02He's never played in meaningful games.
00:05:04Oh, yeah, he's got an injury history.
00:05:05Is he going to stay healthy?
00:05:07Is he going to be able to perform at the same level in Boston with all the pressure
00:05:11and scrutiny that he did with meaningless games in Washington?
00:05:16So there were just a lot of unknowns.
00:05:18And so in my own defense, I think I leaned bucks just out of
00:05:23sake of recognition of their continuity and that they'd won a championship in recent memory.
00:05:29So that was it.
00:05:31It wasn't any real knock on Boston.
00:05:33Um, I do recall, though, and I agreed with this take that in October of last year,
00:05:42everybody universally, I think, agree like this was the consensus view that the Celtics had on
00:05:46paper the best starting five and probably the best one through six in the NBA.
00:05:51That being the case, I don't think anything that came after that should be a surprise.
00:05:55I don't think it's a surprise they won a championship.
00:05:56I don't think it's a surprise that they won 64 games.
00:05:58And once they did win 64 games, I certainly don't think it's a
00:06:01surprise that they would then win a championship because teams that win 64 and up have a pretty
00:06:07good track record of winning titles in the history of the NBA.
00:06:10So that's what I can recall from last summer.
00:06:16You're muted, Alex.
00:06:19Alex, you are muted.
00:06:23Apologies.
00:06:24Sorry about that.
00:06:26I think that's completely fair, Howard.
00:06:28And I think that it's interesting, you know, kind of the way you framed that as, you know,
00:06:34a number of things being uncertain until it became fairly clear that they were going to
00:06:40be a little more certain.
00:06:41JQ, I want to go to you.
00:06:43What did you, I mean, we have the old episode.
00:06:46We can always go back.
00:06:47But what were you thinking around this time last year with regard to this team?
00:06:52I was cautiously optimistic.
00:06:54One of the things I think, you know, we convened to do this last time.
00:07:00We nailed the trades for Smart and Brogden.
00:07:03It was pretty obvious they were out the door.
00:07:06Maybe not to the kind of return we ended up getting back.
00:07:09I don't think anybody really thought that Chris Apsperzingas and Drew Holiday would
00:07:13be on this team.
00:07:15At that point, it was pretty clear that things were looking very, very good.
00:07:18But before all that happened, when we were still looking at what was available, I was
00:07:23cautiously optimistic.
00:07:24And it's important to keep in mind this is with an injured Rob.
00:07:27This is with a questionable Brogden situation.
00:07:30Like there were a lot of still questions yet to be answered when we did this last time.
00:07:35But I think that we did a pretty good job of outlining how some of the more important
00:07:40things that needed to be done were finished or going to be finished.
00:07:45The front court depth issues were also something that we pointed out.
00:07:50And even though they have won a title, that hasn't entirely gone away.
00:07:55And going back to what Howard said about the unknowns of what can happen when a single
00:08:02player is suddenly missing from the equation, it's going to be really curious to see how
00:08:08his absence, until at least we're assuming December, is going to impact this team moving
00:08:13forward.
00:08:14Presumably, they're going to be OK, because as all of us know, the core has been the same.
00:08:21And it was that same core that was giving me optimism about Boston's chances.
00:08:25I was a little nervous, I think, to come out and say, yeah, we're definitely winning the
00:08:28title and anything more than this is a Celtics podcast kind of take.
00:08:33But I am really curious to hear what you guys think this new situation with Kristaps, how
00:08:40that is going to impact the season ahead.
00:08:42Because we now know the schedule.
00:08:44The schedule is going to be pretty light for the first couple of months of the season,
00:08:47which is exactly what you want if you want to try to tinker around with depth pieces
00:08:52to try to find out who can help pick up the slack when he's out.
00:08:56But is it going to be a lot of damage when he is out?
00:08:59I mean, what do we think is going to be the result of this long-term injury?
00:09:02I want to swing to that in just one second, just to briefly touch on something you kind
00:09:06of said previously, and then we'll move on.
00:09:09I think for me, at least with this team last year, I will pretty openly cop to saying that
00:09:15I was really nervous about how this was going to go.
00:09:18I think I was potentially more nervous than both you or Cam in some respects.
00:09:24I was very worried about the lack of Marcus Smart, particularly in terms of point guard
00:09:29depth until prior to the Drew Holiday trade, which to me felt like a way to really stabilize
00:09:36what would have been, in my opinion, a pretty dangerously thin roster at guard had they
00:09:42not done that.
00:09:44For me, the front court depth thing, just really quickly, and then we'll kind of get
00:09:48into future forward.
00:09:50I also need to cop to having, you know, kind of somewhat listened to last year's episodes
00:09:56and stuff like that.
00:09:57I underestimated Al Horford again, guys.
00:10:00I keep doing, I keep thinking.
00:10:02Luke Cornett, I was his worst critic.
00:10:04I keep thinking that Al Horford is eventually going to show some signs of slowing down from
00:10:11being an elite do-it-all center that can just give you absolutely everything you need in
00:10:16the most important moments of the game.
00:10:18And every year, Al Horford proves me wrong and shows that there is, in fact, no age cap
00:10:24on being the guy that he is when you work as hard as he does.
00:10:28So once again, for what feels like the 10 millionth time, mea culpa, Al Horford.
00:10:34I am so sorry.
00:10:36Continue to prove me wrong.
00:10:37It is one of my favorite things to watch in basketball.
00:10:40All right, so let's move on to the future of this front court and this team.
00:10:45Generally, obviously, this week, the NBA schedule for next season dropped.
00:10:51Howard, I want to get your just immediate snapshot take Boston Celtics schedule.
00:10:56What did you see that was of interest to you?
00:11:0141 home games, 41 road games.
00:11:04I did not look beyond that.
00:11:05I'll be honest.
00:11:05Even though I knew I was coming on this podcast, I honestly like it.
00:11:12I am not here to criticize anybody who wants to go game by game, week by week, and analyze
00:11:18their favorite team's schedule.
00:11:20The ins and outs, the swings, the unfair back to backs.
00:11:28Our guys are not going to have rest when they're going up against the nuggets at altitude in
00:11:33mid-January.
00:11:35It's fine.
00:11:36Go to it, people.
00:11:37Have at it.
00:11:38It's great.
00:11:39It's not the way I consume the game or the league because I have no emotional investment
00:11:44and I don't care who wins and loses.
00:11:46I'm really not looking.
00:11:47They're all going to play 41 home, 41 road.
00:11:49Yes, there's nuance to that.
00:11:51No, it's not exactly even.
00:11:54Yes, the West has it tougher because the Western Conference is still a stronger conference
00:11:57by far overall.
00:11:58Yes, there are other kinds of inequities in terms of miles traveled and, yeah, rest games
00:12:05or lack of rest games and numbers of back to backs and all that.
00:12:10But the league has done a pretty good job over the years of streamlining and making
00:12:14the schedule more efficient, less onerous across the board.
00:12:17They've ratcheted down the number of back to backs.
00:12:19They've eliminated four games in five nights.
00:12:20They've eliminated five games in seven nights.
00:12:23I think they've eliminated six in nine or whatever, too.
00:12:26They've done a lot to make it more player friendly.
00:12:32And they put a lot into this.
00:12:34There's a lot.
00:12:37There are entire armies of people putting this stuff together.
00:12:41Back when I had my own podcast, The Full 48, when I was back at Bleacher Report, I did.
00:12:45Good podcast.
00:12:46It became, thank you.
00:12:47It became one of my annual favorite things to do was in August, I would have the schedule
00:12:52makers on.
00:12:52I'm the one who dubbed them the schedule czars.
00:12:55I will take credit for that.
00:12:57And it's Evan Wash and Tom Pirelli and a whole team of people.
00:13:01But the two of them would come on.
00:13:02We talk about this.
00:13:03And it's incredible the amount of thought and data and considerations and variables
00:13:09and everything else that goes into it.
00:13:11So I'm fascinated by the process of it.
00:13:14I'm less fascinated by the actual results.
00:13:18Other than, like everybody else, I'll be like, oh, let's see who's playing on Christmas.
00:13:21Let's see who's playing on opening night and that kind of stuff.
00:13:23But yeah, I mean, I'm curious to see what you guys think, because you're looking at
00:13:30it through a much more macro view or micro view, I guess I should say.
00:13:37I mean, do you feel like this?
00:13:40You just mentioned one of those features of the selfless schedule, which is that it looks
00:13:44a little bit light in the early months when that actually is a good thing without Porzingis.
00:13:48Because I do think, yeah, there's a bit of a survival mechanism here, where it's how
00:13:52well do they get through without him?
00:13:55Although I will also say, if we can get into it, I'm not sure it's going to matter.
00:13:59But anyway.
00:14:01I have a really quick follow up to that, and then we will get into it.
00:14:04In general, how much do you think the schedule matters as far as a team's outcome for the
00:14:11regular season and the way the schedule is structured?
00:14:14I wonder if, as fans, sometimes we maybe put too much weight on things like schedule structure
00:14:23and strength of schedule and things like that.
00:14:24I guess I'm curious for your take on that.
00:14:26The schedule is not the reason that anybody does or does not win the championship.
00:14:30Just like when they switch from the 2-3-2 in the finals to the 2-2-1-1-1, and as somebody
00:14:35who started covering the league when it was still the 2-3-2 and came up on that and grew
00:14:38up on that, I didn't think it was necessary.
00:14:42They did it for a variety of reasons, including presumably some competitive concerns about
00:14:49fairness and all this.
00:14:51I mean, go through NBA history.
00:14:52The team that should have won generally wins, and there's no evidence that the 2-3-2 was
00:14:58the reason that a team didn't win the title.
00:14:59There's no evidence that the schedule, the 82 game schedule, is a reason that a team
00:15:03didn't.
00:15:03So to me, it's kind of immaterial.
00:15:06That doesn't mean that the league shouldn't go to great lengths to try to make it as
00:15:10equitable as possible for all 30 teams in terms of travel and back-to-backs and all
00:15:15these other features.
00:15:16But that said, you can't fix the fact that the Portland Trailblazers are on an island
00:15:22up in the Pacific Northwest where there are no Seattle Supersonics or Vancouver Grizzlies,
00:15:26where once upon a time there was.
00:15:28And because of that, they're going to travel more miles than any other team pretty much
00:15:32every year without fail.
00:15:34So you can't solve for everything.
00:15:38And generally speaking, the best teams win out anyway.
00:15:41The best talent wins out.
00:15:42The team that had the best health and good fortune wins out.
00:15:48It's fun to talk about the schedule.
00:15:50I don't think it matters that much.
00:15:52All righty.
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00:16:52Okay.
00:16:53Back to the show.
00:16:54JQ.
00:16:55All right.
00:16:55Let's deep dive on it.
00:16:57The Boston Celtics, among other things, for their schedule have 34 national TV games,
00:17:05which is the third most in the NBA, following, of course, the Los Angeles Lakers,
00:17:09who lead things at 39, and the Golden State Warriors at 36.
00:17:14It also features, among other things, 13 back-to-backs.
00:17:18JQ, I'm curious.
00:17:19Between the national TV games and the back-to-backs,
00:17:23what are you seeing as far as kind of wrinkles of this schedule?
00:17:26Let's start with the national TV games.
00:17:29Boston Celtics are reigning champs.
00:17:32Why do they not have the most national TV games?
00:17:34Did you check the general vibes of the ratings for the Dallas Mavericks finals?
00:17:40It wasn't super popular compared to a lot of others.
00:17:43And let's be honest, the Golden State Warriors and the Los Angeles Lakers,
00:17:49they are big media draws, which is why I think they have more national TV games.
00:17:54Honestly, the Celtics were boringly dominant last season,
00:17:58and it didn't really draw in a lot of people.
00:18:01I don't know why, but that's what happened.
00:18:04So I think, from a business perspective, the league is just signing TV games,
00:18:10or probably the broadcasters, if we're being honest,
00:18:12are signing TV games for the stuff they think is going to bring more revenue.
00:18:16Listen, if you thought anything about that Boston Celtics run was boring...
00:18:21You don't know what I mean.
00:18:23There wasn't a different sport than I am.
00:18:26Anyway, 13 back-to-backs is another big feature for the Boston Celtics schedule.
00:18:33Obviously, the league has been trying to reduce back-to-backs generally.
00:18:38Howard, what do you take away from the 13 back-to-backs,
00:18:41and in particular, how it might affect Boston's season, anything?
00:18:45I think it's right at about the league average.
00:18:47I think the average is right around that zone.
00:18:50So if you have 13, 12, 14, 15, everybody's going to be somewhere in that range,
00:18:55for the most part.
00:18:56So I don't put too much in that,
00:18:59and you'd have to then look at the actual back-to-backs
00:19:01and see who they're playing in each pairing,
00:19:04and whether you think that may adversely affect them.
00:19:06But again, every team's going to have somewhere in that range of back-to-backs.
00:19:10Every team's got to deal with it.
00:19:11So it's not something I would spend a lot of time thinking about.
00:19:15I do think it's funny.
00:19:20I try to make it a policy as a reporter
00:19:22not to tell fans what they should think or feel about whatever.
00:19:26The team, their team, the league, anything.
00:19:33There's an emotional investment in fandom.
00:19:34That's the whole point of the exercise.
00:19:37And so whether that's joy, anger, frustration, whatever,
00:19:40it's all part of it.
00:19:42So I'm not going to try to tell people as a matter of general policy,
00:19:45personally, what they should think.
00:19:47That said, I do like to tweak overall fan attitudes sometimes.
00:19:51I have a hashtag, fan grievance, or NBA grievance Twitter,
00:19:57I think is what I've dubbed it on Twitter,
00:19:59because grievance is such a big part now of fan discourse,
00:20:06of NBA discourse, period.
00:20:08The national games thing, it's just funny.
00:20:13So the Celtics have fewer national TV games than the Lakers and Warriors.
00:20:16Well, the Lakers have LeBron James and the Warriors have Steph Curry,
00:20:19and these are two of the greatest players in the history of the game.
00:20:22And as great as Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown are,
00:20:26they're not Steph Curry and LeBron James.
00:20:28This is not an insult.
00:20:30This is not something to be upset over.
00:20:31Again, I'm not going to tell fans what to think.
00:20:33If you want to be upset about this, fine.
00:20:36That's great.
00:20:36If you think your team has been insulted, fine.
00:20:39I'm not going to be able to talk you out of it.
00:20:40But LeBron and Steph Curry are just, they're ratings drivers.
00:20:45They are guaranteed bank.
00:20:47And Tatum and Brown are really good.
00:20:50And the whole team collectively is really good.
00:20:54They don't drive ratings the same way that LeBron James and Steph Curry do.
00:20:57That's it.
00:20:57It's really that simple.
00:20:59And I don't think it's, you know, whatever.
00:21:02People, if they're going to get upset about it, they will.
00:21:04That's fine.
00:21:05I think I'm less concerned about whether the fans are upset and more thinking about
00:21:10what are the ways that Joe Mizzoula will use this perceived slight to
00:21:14motivate and fuel the Boston Celtics going forward.
00:21:17There is nobody better in the world at taking what is a very small thing
00:21:22and turning it into a massive war against the Boston Celtics specifically than Joe Mizzoula.
00:21:28So I'm excited for that one.
00:21:30So 13 back-to-backs, you know, league average about.
00:21:35There's a couple of tough stretches here for Boston.
00:21:39They have a back-to-back in which they're at Cleveland,
00:21:43and then they play Miami the next day in Boston.
00:21:47They have a game against Milwaukee and then following the Memphis Grizzlies,
00:21:52who we'll get to season preview a little later.
00:21:55But I think JQ, I can speak for both of us in saying that
00:21:58we're feeling reasonably good about what's going on in Memphis,
00:22:01or at least better than it could have been last year.
00:22:05Those back-to-backs, too, are only two of the 13 where they're facing an opponent that is,
00:22:10shall we say, very likely to be good when the Celtics play them.
00:22:14So as far as back-to-backs go, this is a pretty light schedule of them.
00:22:19And in general, I think the conclusion for this schedule is that,
00:22:22as we said before, the Celtics' first couple of months are fairly light here.
00:22:28And that is going to be important for Boston,
00:22:29specifically with their front court rotation.
00:22:31Howard, earlier you said that with regard to the Kristaps Porzingis entry,
00:22:37obviously he's going to be out probably till December, maybe January,
00:22:41you hinted at that it might not matter that much for the Boston Celtics.
00:22:46Let's expand on that.
00:22:47What is your thinking about the state of this front court heading into next year?
00:22:51Yeah, I mean, this is not to diminish the concerns about the front court,
00:22:54because I think those are real.
00:22:55And I think even, again, this time last year, or whatever, in October of last year,
00:23:02I don't remember where we were at this time last year, which moves have been made.
00:23:05But going into the season, it was fair to have at least some concern for the Celtics that
00:23:12Horford being the age that he is with the miles he's got on him,
00:23:15and Porzingis' health history, injury history,
00:23:18that those things combined could spell some concern for the Celtics.
00:23:23They won 64 games.
00:23:24They were fine.
00:23:25They won a championship.
00:23:26They were fine.
00:23:27They won a championship despite Porzingis getting hurt in the finals.
00:23:32But every year, I think, that goes by, you know,
00:23:35the Horford question becomes that much more urgent.
00:23:38And there's that many more miles.
00:23:40And lo and behold, Porzingis is, I don't want to say hurt again,
00:23:45but recovering from stuff again, and won't be available.
00:23:50And won't be available.
00:23:51And yeah, I think there's only so many Cornet contests that the world can endure.
00:23:57But the reason I'm downplaying the overall impact is,
00:24:03as long as they can nurse Horford through and not burn him out while Porzingis is out,
00:24:08and as long as Horford doesn't get hurt himself,
00:24:10as long as Porzingis is back on schedule, and they get through the rest of the season,
00:24:16it won't really matter.
00:24:17And the reason I say it won't really matter is this.
00:24:20I worry less for a team that's already a defending champion
00:24:24in terms of the way they perform in a regular season.
00:24:28First of all, most defending champions are going to win fewer games
00:24:30after winning the championship.
00:24:32I don't have the numbers on that,
00:24:33but I'm pretty sure that's the case more often than not.
00:24:36I don't think they're winning 64 games again,
00:24:38and that's not a knock.
00:24:39It's just reality.
00:24:42And I always say it's more important for a young team.
00:24:46So the Thunder were a number one seed and obviously did not make the finals,
00:24:51but a young team that has not been through the battles of the playoffs
00:24:55and just the intensity of a postseason,
00:24:57it's more important for them to have home court in a theoretical Game 7
00:25:00or a decisive Game 5 in a 2-2 series.
00:25:03You know what I mean?
00:25:04It matters if you don't have the experience.
00:25:07When you have the experience, you can shrug and say,
00:25:11man, we've seen it all.
00:25:12And the Celtics had already basically seen it all
00:25:13even before they won the championship, right?
00:25:15They'd been to the finals.
00:25:16They'd been to multiple conference finals.
00:25:18They'd been in Game 7s.
00:25:19They'd done everything.
00:25:21So I think if they need to take their foot off the gas,
00:25:28either by choice or just by subconsciously, that's what happens,
00:25:34or because Porzingis is out, whatever it may be,
00:25:37if they're third or fourth in the regular season instead of first,
00:25:40I don't think it really matters that much.
00:25:43I don't think home court advantage is critical for a team
00:25:46that has already proven itself and that is veteran.
00:25:48It's more important for a young, unproven team,
00:25:51like I say, like the Thunder example.
00:25:53So, you know, we'll see.
00:25:56They may find creative ways to get through it.
00:25:59Maybe they find a way to swing a deal for, you know,
00:26:03another 4-5 type to plug in
00:26:07while they're waiting for Porzingis to get back.
00:26:09That'll be hard with the second half.
00:26:11It's almost impossible.
00:26:12It's almost impossible.
00:26:14And that's the thing.
00:26:15Like you can't even grade the offseason other than to say,
00:26:17hey, they've got all the most important pieces back
00:26:20from a defending champion.
00:26:21What else are you going to ask for?
00:26:22And given this new economy,
00:26:25this new NBA economy with the second apron
00:26:27and making it virtually impossible to add significant talent
00:26:32for sometimes any players at all, it just is what it is.
00:26:36Yeah.
00:26:37I think I would not expect any significant additions
00:26:41for Boston outside of a few depth pieces,
00:26:43a couple of ring chasers at minimum salaries here and there.
00:26:46Still interested to see what happens with O'Shea Percet.
00:26:49Haven't gotten any word on that.
00:26:52A couple of, so we mentioned, you know,
00:26:54among other things that it's probably,
00:26:55and I think JQ and I both agree that it's somewhat unlikely
00:26:59that Boston is going to rip off another 64-win season
00:27:02and that there's a reasonable chance
00:27:04that they will not be the one seed
00:27:05with a bullet heading into next year.
00:27:08Some of the teams that might be taking the one seed
00:27:11from the Boston Celtics in the Eastern Conference
00:27:14will be playing against them,
00:27:15obviously on opening ring night for the Boston Celtics.
00:27:19They'll be welcoming the New York Knickerbockers
00:27:21at the Garden, a much ballyhooed team
00:27:24that has very explicitly built themselves
00:27:27to beat the Celtics specifically.
00:27:29We will see how that looks.
00:27:32Then later that month, or rather simply next week,
00:27:36they take on the Milwaukee Bucks
00:27:38with some revamped roster pieces here and there.
00:27:42Of course, much has been made about Jason Tatum
00:27:45and Steve Kerr's relationship from the Olympics.
00:27:48And whatever that looks like,
00:27:50we will have two confrontations
00:27:53with the Golden State Warriors,
00:27:54including one on November 6th,
00:27:56to see what that looks like.
00:27:58They will, of course, be playing the Minnesota Timberwolves
00:28:01the 24th of November,
00:28:03another hot team with some young talent,
00:28:06some vet talent and high expectations.
00:28:09A couple other highlights,
00:28:10we've got the possible return of Marcus Smart
00:28:14in a playing role.
00:28:15Obviously, the Memphis Grizzlies
00:28:17in the Celtics played last year,
00:28:19but Marcus Smart was not available to go in those games.
00:28:23He could be back at the beginning of December,
00:28:25on the 7th.
00:28:26Christmas Day, they will be taking on
00:28:28the Philadelphia 76ers at TD Garden.
00:28:31Philly, one of those teams
00:28:32that might be gunning for that top seed.
00:28:35And then you mentioned the Oklahoma City Thunder
00:28:38in the beginning of January,
00:28:41really throughout January.
00:28:42Boston's got some serious road tilts
00:28:44with OKC, Denver, and the Los Angeles Lakers throughout.
00:28:50And then briefly, we kind of mentioned
00:28:52that the second half of the schedule gets a lot tougher.
00:28:55March, in particular, is a bear for Boston.
00:28:58Starting with Denver and then Philly
00:29:01and then Oklahoma City,
00:29:02all within the span of two weeks.
00:29:04And then April, they will play Phoenix
00:29:06and they'll have their rematch with the Knicks
00:29:09on April 8th before ending things
00:29:11with a back-to-back with the Charlotte Hornets.
00:29:14So those are some major games.
00:29:16Any particular ones that you are looking forward to
00:29:20the most, Howard, of that slate?
00:29:23I mean, it's the obvious things, right?
00:29:25Knicks and Sixers, I feel like,
00:29:27are the two strongest challengers to them.
00:29:30Although, I do think the Bucs are going
00:29:33to get back into this thing.
00:29:34The Bucs, I think, quietly had a pretty solid offseason
00:29:37for a team that had very little to work with.
00:29:39And they just have to get healthy.
00:29:43Giannis just has to stay healthy in the playoffs.
00:29:47There's a bunch of other considerations for the Bucs.
00:29:52How much of a difference will it make
00:29:53to have Doc from day one instead of...
00:29:55They had three coaches in the span of eight months
00:29:57or something from Bunholzer to Adrian Griffin to Doc.
00:30:02So not having to screw up your coaching hire
00:30:05and then make up for it in the middle of the season.
00:30:07Having Doc from day one, Lillard and Giannis
00:30:11having a full season of their belts together,
00:30:14some decent pickups over the summer,
00:30:16including Gary Trent Jr.
00:30:18I think the Bucs will be heard from in all this
00:30:20and we're probably all going to be sleeping on them
00:30:21because we're all fascinated by what it looks like
00:30:25with Paul George in Philly
00:30:26and Mikael Bridges with New York.
00:30:29So I think it's a four-way race.
00:30:31I don't know how you guys feel.
00:30:33I don't think it's anybody beyond that.
00:30:35I'm not expecting Cleveland or Indianapolis
00:30:37or Orlando or somebody to jump into the fray there.
00:30:41I guess it's possible.
00:30:46Keeping my eye on the magic a little bit.
00:30:47That's all I'm going to say on that.
00:30:49So let's get more specific.
00:30:50Howard, we know you're going to be watching Rick Knight.
00:30:54We know you're going to be watching the Celtics
00:30:55on Christmas day.
00:30:56Those feel like no brainers,
00:30:58barring some sort of thing getting in the way
00:31:02that can't be helped.
00:31:05What's the game that you're, Howard Beck,
00:31:07you're saying, I have to catch the Celtics playing this team.
00:31:11I know that I want to prioritize that
00:31:13whenever that happens.
00:31:18It's just all the obvious ones, right?
00:31:20Because they might end up in the finals again
00:31:23against the Thunder this time.
00:31:26I think we're all curious how that looks.
00:31:30It could be Minnesota.
00:31:31We'll be curious how that looks.
00:31:32The Mavericks had a pretty good offseason.
00:31:34And initially, the second the finals ended,
00:31:38I thought, well, that was fun while it lasted for Dallas.
00:31:42I don't know that we're going to see them on the stage
00:31:44again anytime soon.
00:31:45Just because the West is that good.
00:31:46It wasn't really a knock on Dallas.
00:31:47But nobody expected them to be in the finals
00:31:50in the first place for some good reasons.
00:31:52And I think they had some holes.
00:31:55They had a decent offseason.
00:31:57They might make it back.
00:31:59They might.
00:32:01But there's at least five teams in the West that might.
00:32:04So I'm curious with the Celtics in each of those.
00:32:09I guess the one that still, to me,
00:32:10is the most fascinating, though, is just Philly.
00:32:12It's going to come back to Philly.
00:32:14And I think, if anything, the fact
00:32:16that we have to wait all the way until Christmas Day
00:32:18to see the Sixers-Celtics, if you want to quibble
00:32:22with the schedule.
00:32:23And I don't.
00:32:23I don't care.
00:32:25But yeah, maybe I wanted to see it a little sooner
00:32:27because I am curious.
00:32:30Hopefully, everybody's healthy on both sides
00:32:32when they meet up in December.
00:32:34Maybe that's the benefit of this.
00:32:35Maybe Porzingis is back by then.
00:32:37Hopefully, Embiid and Paul George
00:32:38haven't gotten hurt before then on the Sixers side.
00:32:41I want to see these two teams at full strength
00:32:43because we are long past the days or the era
00:32:49of the super team in the NBA.
00:32:51And I know that people are going to immediately say,
00:32:54oh, what about the Suns?
00:32:55What about this?
00:32:56I have a specific definition for this.
00:32:58We don't need to go down that rabbit hole.
00:32:59But we had an era, starting with the Celtics
00:33:03of Garnett, Allen, and Pierce, all the way
00:33:06through about 2019 and the Warriors deteriorating
00:33:11before our eyes in the finals.
00:33:14That was the super team era, where
00:33:15teams were stacking up three or four all-stars,
00:33:18three or four guys on max contracts.
00:33:20That almost can't happen anymore,
00:33:21and the Sixers are an anomaly in this regard
00:33:24because Tyrese Maxey hadn't signed the extension off
00:33:26of his rookie deal yet, and the Sixers
00:33:28were in a position to just let their entire roster,
00:33:30other than Embiid, expire so that they
00:33:33could go get Paul George.
00:33:34This is really, really, really hard
00:33:36to do now in today's NBA, folks.
00:33:38We're just not going to see this very often,
00:33:39where you have three guys who are all NBA caliber,
00:33:43and the Sixers have it.
00:33:46The Celtics, their response to that
00:33:49would simply be, well, we've got two all-NBA caliber guys,
00:33:52one of whom has been a perennial MVP candidate,
00:33:55and a bunch of other guys who, at various times
00:33:57in their careers, have either been all-stars or all-NBA.
00:34:01But again, it doesn't fit the model of the super team
00:34:03as I would define it, like when the Warriors had a super team
00:34:07or the Heatles, that kind of model.
00:34:12So I'm really curious to see how it works.
00:34:16Part of this depends on Paul George's health
00:34:18at this age.
00:34:19He's in his mid-30s now.
00:34:21Part of this depends on Embiid staying healthy.
00:34:24But in Embiid, Paul George rapidly
00:34:27improving Tyrese Maxey with good supporting players
00:34:32is probably as big a threat as you're
00:34:35going to see to the Celtics.
00:34:37And again, that's not dismissing the possibility
00:34:38of the Bucks or the Knicks knocking them out.
00:34:41But those teams, I think, have more question marks.
00:34:44Maybe not more question marks.
00:34:45They have question marks.
00:34:46And I don't know.
00:34:49There's something intriguing about the way
00:34:51Philly's three stars fit together, right?
00:34:54They're not overlapping.
00:34:55They're as close as you can get in some ways,
00:34:58not in terms of skill sets, but in terms
00:35:00of complementary aspects where they just
00:35:05fit together without overlap as that Celtics team
00:35:08with Garnett, Allen, Pierce.
00:35:09Because the mesh was easy in some ways.
00:35:15And I think that that's what the Sixers have
00:35:16with these three guys.
00:35:17There's nothing quite like a summer night
00:35:19at Fenway with a hot dog in hand.
00:35:21And luckily, catching a game this season
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00:36:20JQ, matchup you're looking forward to the most
00:36:23of any of the teams.
00:36:24You can't say Christmas Day and you can't say Ring Knight.
00:36:29Oh, you had to gut me right there.
00:36:32Yeah.
00:36:32Listen, I'm going to say opening night anyway,
00:36:34but it didn't matter to me if it's opening night.
00:36:37It could be another night.
00:36:38It could be a matchup where the Knicks are playing
00:36:40the Celtics on another night.
00:36:42Both of you guys blatantly violating the rules I laid out.
00:36:46That's fine.
00:36:46I'm sorry.
00:36:48It's just because this is a team that was built,
00:36:52as Howard has mentioned, to defeat the Celtics.
00:36:54And it is a team that is trying to really lean
00:36:57into this new model of team building, right?
00:37:00So I want to see how it works.
00:37:03More so than Bing Bong or Ring Knight
00:37:06or any of the other stuff.
00:37:07I just want to see how it works
00:37:09because this is not a team that is designed
00:37:12to win in the previous era.
00:37:15So the Celtics kind of still are one of those teams
00:37:19based on how they kind of did similar to what Phoenix did
00:37:23in terms of ignoring the second apron stuff
00:37:25until it was unignorable.
00:37:27So they kind of have one of these old style super teams,
00:37:31but this team is also designed to specifically pick
00:37:36at the weaknesses and strengths of the Celtics organization.
00:37:39So for me, it's going to be that.
00:37:43We could always save the Lakers.
00:37:45You know, I'm always up to see the Lakers.
00:37:48I am not super convinced that it's going to be as impactful
00:37:51of a meeting this particular season,
00:37:52but you know, it'd be nice to rub 18
00:37:54in their faces a little bit.
00:37:56For me, there was one team that I thought played
00:38:00the Boston Celtics as well as anybody last year
00:38:03that I think remains almost completely intact
00:38:07from its previous situation.
00:38:09I am so fascinated to see
00:38:11what the Minnesota Timberwolves look like this year
00:38:13and specifically how they match up against Boston.
00:38:16To me, they're one of maybe two or three West teams
00:38:19that I could see making a serious finals run.
00:38:22And that matchup, both of those games went to overtime.
00:38:26They were extremely competitive back and forth affairs.
00:38:30Both of the rosters present some real challenges
00:38:33to each other respectively.
00:38:35And I feel like just watching those games in particular,
00:38:38I was really impressed at the level of basketball
00:38:42being played by both teams.
00:38:43So that one is very much circled for me.
00:38:47I have a question for you guys,
00:38:49because you had it in the show notes
00:38:50and you touched on it briefly,
00:38:51although I think you were saying it's,
00:38:53you know, somewhat, you know, cheekily, I guess.
00:38:59Is Tatum versus Kerr really a thing?
00:39:02Like for you guys individually as Celtics fans
00:39:04and for the Celtics fans,
00:39:05like, is this actually,
00:39:07like how much momentum is still behind this Tatum?
00:39:10I'm back to NBA fan grievance, Twitter here.
00:39:13But like, is this still animating people?
00:39:16Do people actually care?
00:39:17I think the Tatum thing, sorry,
00:39:20the Tatum thing is not real.
00:39:23The Jalen Brown thing is very much real.
00:39:26And I am curious to know.
00:39:28Is that more with Steve Kerr or Grant Hill?
00:39:30Oh no, it's totally Grant Hill.
00:39:32Yeah, no.
00:39:33But I mean, if there is any Team USA beef,
00:39:36it's the Brown stuff.
00:39:37As far as I could tell,
00:39:38Tatum was mortified by his mom going on social media
00:39:42and pleading his case along with Dick Vitale
00:39:45and literally everyone else.
00:39:47Yeah.
00:39:47I think Celtics fans are pretty mad at Steve Kerr,
00:39:50myself included.
00:39:51But aside from that,
00:39:52I don't think Tatum and Steve Kerr have any notable beef.
00:39:55I could see there being a world
00:39:57in which even if there is not a meaningful beef,
00:40:01the Jays could still use their respective Olympic snubs,
00:40:05so to speak, as a motivating factor specifically against...
00:40:10I mean, they've always wanted to beat the Warriors
00:40:12ever since the Warriors beat them in the finals.
00:40:14So I don't think they're going to be short on motivation
00:40:17when they go to Golden State, let's put it that way.
00:40:18No, and I'll never dismiss the fact that in the NBA,
00:40:23I'm sure this exists in the other professional sports too,
00:40:24but in the NBA, the ability to manufacture motivation,
00:40:29and I don't even mean...
00:40:30By manufacture, I don't even necessarily mean
00:40:32that it has to somehow be completely concocted,
00:40:37although sometimes it is.
00:40:39Just the fact that taking any thread,
00:40:42any snub, real or perceived,
00:40:45any grievance whatsoever or revenge,
00:40:49all these things,
00:40:50any emotion that you can bring to bear,
00:40:52it's a long season.
00:40:53And it's even longer when you're expecting to play into June.
00:40:56And so I will never dismiss from a psychological standpoint,
00:40:59the fact that having that to grab onto,
00:41:01you mentioned Mazul earlier,
00:41:02he's going to throw everything up on the board,
00:41:05like, cool, fine.
00:41:06That's great.
00:41:06You do what you have to do,
00:41:08even when you know damn well,
00:41:09this stuff actually doesn't mean that much in a lot of cases.
00:41:13Some means more than others, right?
00:41:14Like wanting to beat the Warriors,
00:41:16if you were to see,
00:41:17especially if you saw them in the finals again,
00:41:19yeah, like obviously the championship's at stake
00:41:21and you want to beat the team that denied you a championship.
00:41:24But, you know,
00:41:25that Kerr didn't play Tatum in a couple of games
00:41:28and he wasn't, seriously?
00:41:30I mean, it was in the Olympics.
00:41:32It's a whole different thing.
00:41:34By the way, just for the record
00:41:35and at the risk of pissing off everybody
00:41:37listening to this podcast,
00:41:38I think the whole story was completely overblown.
00:41:40And it's silly.
00:41:43To quote Herm Edwards,
00:41:45you play to win the games.
00:41:47You play to win the championship.
00:41:48You play to win the gold medal in this case.
00:41:50They won the gold medal.
00:41:51If he had not played Tatum that much and they lost,
00:41:56then go to town.
00:41:57But the point was to create a rotation,
00:42:02a lineup and adjust as you go along
00:42:04in a very short tournament
00:42:06in a way that will get you to the gold.
00:42:09They succeeded.
00:42:10Tatum was behind a whole slew of hall of famers,
00:42:14future hall of famers,
00:42:15including at his own position,
00:42:17LeBron James and Kevin Durant.
00:42:19He's not better than those guys, I'm sorry to say.
00:42:22Even at this age, he's just not.
00:42:24And especially in a short tournament
00:42:26where those guys had plenty of rest days
00:42:27and these are only 40 minute games.
00:42:29And that, by the way, 40 minute games,
00:42:31there was fewer minutes.
00:42:31I just think this whole thing was so overwrought.
00:42:34It was such a 2024 story and controversy.
00:42:39I don't think we would have had this same discussion
00:42:4315 years ago, 20 years ago.
00:42:45It just wouldn't have been the case.
00:42:46It's because everything now
00:42:48is in service of debate and grievance.
00:42:50And I just think this one really spun out of control.
00:42:54That's just my view of it.
00:42:56Jason Tatum, I'm sure, is thrilled to have a gold medal
00:42:59that he obviously contributed to.
00:43:01He's a hall of famer.
00:43:03He's like, when you don't do a class project,
00:43:07you still get an A.
00:43:09I do think that there's something there
00:43:11that you can pick at,
00:43:12but it has a lot less to do with the Celtics,
00:43:14a lot more to do with the structure of Team USA.
00:43:16And this is the Team USA podcast, so.
00:43:20Yeah. I mean, I think the only thing
00:43:21that I would throw out there is that
00:43:24I don't really buy the idea
00:43:26that you can't play them against Serbia
00:43:27for whatever reason.
00:43:28Feels like, to me, there were opportunities to do that.
00:43:33But did it matter?
00:43:35Why does it matter?
00:43:37Why does it matter?
00:43:38I'm just saying.
00:43:39I think I'm just not sure I buy that.
00:43:41I'm not trying to bully you.
00:43:44The whole time I was watching this
00:43:46and listening to all this stuff
00:43:47and watching it on Twitter,
00:43:47I'm like, are people really this mad about it?
00:43:50They're going to win the fucking gold medal.
00:43:51Why do you care whether Tatum played 10 minutes,
00:43:5412 or zero in a given game?
00:43:56It's very strange to me.
00:43:58Everything is about, again,
00:43:59it's because everything is now about disrespect
00:44:03and all these other things that don't really matter.
00:44:05The point is to win.
00:44:06They won.
00:44:07He contributed.
00:44:08They did win.
00:44:09And that is not an unfamiliar thing
00:44:11for Boston Celtics fans, the idea of winning.
00:44:15And so we're going to put a pin in that,
00:44:18but we will move on very briefly.
00:44:21Just want to talk about.
00:44:22So the other big story for Boston,
00:44:24because there really was not that many big stories
00:44:26for Boston this off-season.
00:44:27Probably the biggest one is that there is some recent developments
00:44:32with regard to Witt Gruesbeck
00:44:34and the Celtics ownership group
00:44:36potentially changing hands and selling the team.
00:44:38We've heard rumors of John Henry, which are horrifying.
00:44:43And we've heard rumors of possibly Steve Pagliuca
00:44:47getting a group together.
00:44:48People are throwing out Elon Musk,
00:44:50which I would not be thrilled with.
00:44:52And a bunch of other things as far as possible Celtics buyers.
00:44:58Let's just do this really quickly
00:44:59because we've talked about this a little bit before.
00:45:03Howard, what's your kind of take on this ownership situation?
00:45:06Is it going to affect the Celtics championship odds for next year?
00:45:11And what do you think is going to potentially happen here with ownership?
00:45:16It's a really hard one to get your head around in a lot of ways.
00:45:20Not least of which is because they want to do this as a phase-in
00:45:24kind of like what Minnesota has done badly.
00:45:30If the league allows it, you would hope it's not just a smoother transition,
00:45:35but one with a little bit more certainty built into it.
00:45:38Look, Wick-Grosbeck is not Glenn Taylor,
00:45:41so they're already ahead of the game.
00:45:43I think about Celtics fan, the first thing I'm thinking
00:45:45is just that Wick-Grosbeck has been one of the best owners in the league.
00:45:50And I don't mean that just because they've won a couple championships.
00:45:52Like even if they hadn't won those,
00:45:53I just think his stewardship has been excellent.
00:45:58All you can ask is that the owner of the team that you're rooting for
00:46:02be willing to spend, make more good decisions than not.
00:46:05You're never going to be perfect.
00:46:07Hire the right people, have some stability.
00:46:10And they have, they've done all these things, right?
00:46:12Like Danny Ainge was the GM for a hundred years.
00:46:15When they handed it off to Brad Stevens, I was the first to say,
00:46:19like, I wasn't sure that was the greatest idea in the world.
00:46:23Like Brad Stevens, phenomenal coach,
00:46:25but like coaching and GMing are way different jobs.
00:46:28He's been amazing.
00:46:30So again, they've made good decisions more often than not.
00:46:32So I think his ownership tenure has been fantastic.
00:46:36And so I think the first thing that hits me
00:46:39on behalf of Celtics fans out there would be like,
00:46:41I would worry that the next owner is not going to be as good or as committed,
00:46:44as smart about decision-making,
00:46:46as generous with the checkbook, paying luxury tax, all that stuff.
00:46:51We won't know until we get there, right?
00:46:53We won't know until we find out who they have sold to.
00:46:57And when we hear from that person or that group.
00:46:59So I think it's the uncertainty would be a little bit unsettling,
00:47:02but, you know, and this is one of the premier franchises in professional sports.
00:47:07So I think the league certainly is going to be very attentive to this process.
00:47:14And of course the other owners all have to vote on the sale once that's in place.
00:47:21So, yeah, I mean, I think that's pretty much it.
00:47:27I think that's pretty much it.
00:47:29Like there's just a lot of unknown.
00:47:31And I think the good news for the Celtics is nothing's happening tomorrow.
00:47:36You know, nothing's even happening probably
00:47:38in terms of a handoff for a couple of years here.
00:47:41And so, you know, I don't think you have to worry about
00:47:45suddenly somebody coming in and saying,
00:47:47oh, we don't want to pay the luxury tax.
00:47:48We don't want to be at the second apron.
00:47:50Let's start shedding pieces.
00:47:53That obviously would be rough.
00:47:56So speaking of unknowns really quickly,
00:47:58and then we'll kind of start wrapping things up here.
00:48:01Speaking of unknowns, the Boston Celtics do have one more unknown
00:48:05in the form of their roster,
00:48:06in that there is still a 15th roster spot open for the team at this moment.
00:48:11Brad Stevens has indicated that he might want to leave it open,
00:48:16but you never know.
00:48:16These things can change in a heartbeat.
00:48:19I guess I'm curious.
00:48:21We'll go Howard first, then Justin.
00:48:23Howard, what should the Boston Celtics do with this roster spot?
00:48:28Yeah, I'll just leave it at that.
00:48:30I'm old enough to remember a time,
00:48:32because I was covering the league then,
00:48:34when NBA rosters were only 12 players,
00:48:37and then you had an injured list in which you would
00:48:39manufacture injuries for guys so that you could keep them around,
00:48:42because otherwise, if you didn't have an injury,
00:48:43you had to let them go.
00:48:45Right.
00:48:45So the 15-man roster is a massive luxury, historically speaking,
00:48:51which is to say that it doesn't matter.
00:48:54Whoever they can sign to that 15th spot isn't going to matter.
00:48:57If that guy is still out there right now,
00:49:00he's not good enough to materially affect your season, most likely.
00:49:04So yeah, you leave it open for the optionality,
00:49:06not just to save cost,
00:49:08which obviously is going to be an issue too,
00:49:10because there's tax issues to deal with.
00:49:13But maybe you're in a position later to do a one-for-two trade,
00:49:16and you need the extra spot for that.
00:49:18Maybe somebody shakes loose who you've had your eye on,
00:49:22who you do think you could either develop,
00:49:23or somebody gets waived in February or something,
00:49:30whatever it may be.
00:49:32Can't even do that anymore.
00:49:33What's that?
00:49:34Stupid new second apron.
00:49:36Oh, yeah, right.
00:49:37Exactly.
00:49:39But having the optionality of just having that spot open,
00:49:43I think, makes a lot of sense.
00:49:46I haven't looked at the list of still-available free agents
00:49:48here on August 16th,
00:49:50but I don't imagine there's anybody who's going to make the rotation
00:49:54unless there's a whole series of injuries.
00:49:56That's probably fair.
00:49:58JQ, any additional thoughts on the last roster spot here?
00:50:02Well, considering how much you're going to be paying in tax now moving forward,
00:50:05they also have other reasons to leave that open.
00:50:08And let's just say that one of the new two-way guys,
00:50:11or the older two guys who are still with us,
00:50:14one of them starts to pop.
00:50:16Be nice to have something to do with them, right?
00:50:18If you want to include them,
00:50:19if you have an injury and one of them has to come in,
00:50:22as Howard noted, there's a whole host of situations
00:50:25where having that spot open is probably more useful than not.
00:50:28I mean, to O'Shea Brissett's point,
00:50:30he probably would like to come back to the Celtics.
00:50:33If he does come back to the Celtics,
00:50:34he's probably not getting any more time than he did last season,
00:50:37which was not enough for him.
00:50:39And that in itself is a problem.
00:50:41That creates a source of friction where you don't want friction.
00:50:44So for my eyes, the whole O'Shea Brissett thing,
00:50:48he's going to find a home somewhere.
00:50:49And if it's not in the NBA,
00:50:50he'll be playing a lot more minutes
00:50:52for probably more money in another league.
00:50:55So yeah, let's keep it open and see what happens.
00:50:58The flexibility and the savings,
00:50:59I think will be important down the road,
00:51:01no matter who ends up buying this team.
00:51:02So let's get into the down the road part,
00:51:05because we started this episode off
00:51:07talking about what we thought about this team
00:51:10heading into this past season when Celtics won the NBA title.
00:51:14All right, Howard, it's time.
00:51:15We're putting you on the spot.
00:51:16It's way too early.
00:51:18Rosters has only sort of settled.
00:51:19The schedule only just came out.
00:51:21We haven't even seen what anybody looks like in preseason.
00:51:23All this being said,
00:51:25how many wins and roughly what seed
00:51:28are we looking at for the Boston Celtics
00:51:30heading into next year?
00:51:32I think they're going to drop below 60
00:51:34and maybe like 58,
00:51:35and they'll be number one anyway.
00:51:37Because of the teams in the East
00:51:40that I think are likely to be the most impressive,
00:51:45the strongest, whatever adjectives you want to use,
00:51:50I don't have a ton of confidence
00:51:51that any of them are 60-win teams either, right?
00:51:54Philly at some point is going to lose Embiid
00:51:55for a stretch of games
00:51:56and maybe Paul George for a stretch of games.
00:51:58It's just the reality.
00:52:02The Bucs at some point are going to lose Chris Middleton
00:52:04for a stretch of games, unfortunately,
00:52:05because it happens every season
00:52:07and it could happen with Dame Lillard as well.
00:52:10Brooke Lopez, they've just got a lot of age
00:52:12and injury history concerns in Milwaukee.
00:52:16And then the Knicks,
00:52:20I'm not sure how to interpret the Knicks yet
00:52:23because Mikael Bridges is a really good player
00:52:26and a great pickup for all the obvious reasons.
00:52:28His versatility, his dispositional mesh with the team,
00:52:33the Villanova connections, all that stuff, right?
00:52:35All the good vibes, it's great.
00:52:37Knicks vibes are immaculate.
00:52:38But they lost a player who, heading into last season,
00:52:43you would have thought was maybe
00:52:44their fifth most important guy
00:52:46and was arguably one of the most important
00:52:50in Isaiah Hartenstein.
00:52:52And Mitchell Robinson, who's their other center,
00:52:56he's very good.
00:52:58He's not as impactful as Hartenstein was
00:53:00and he's always hurt.
00:53:01And we're taping this on August 16th.
00:53:04There is two months to go until,
00:53:07roughly until opening night,
00:53:09month and a half until training camps open.
00:53:11Maybe the Knicks are gonna find some other deal to make
00:53:13that brings in another center.
00:53:15But as of right now,
00:53:16basically after Mitchell Robinson,
00:53:18everybody on the roster,
00:53:19I think like Jericho Sims is 6'10",
00:53:21everybody else is 6'8 and under.
00:53:23So the Knicks have some size issues.
00:53:24And Hartenstein, the number,
00:53:26I was at a lot of the,
00:53:27because I'm based in New York,
00:53:28I went to a lot of the Knicks home games
00:53:29against Philly and Indiana.
00:53:32The number of possessions
00:53:33that Hartenstein kept alive,
00:53:35it felt like all of them, frankly.
00:53:38He was massive for them,
00:53:40specifically when it came to offensive rebounding.
00:53:43So I don't know,
00:53:45does what Mikhail Bridges adds
00:53:47make up enough for what they've lost in Hartenstein?
00:53:49Because these are completely different skill sets.
00:53:54But sometimes you can reformat
00:53:56and be just as good or even better
00:53:59with a different array of players
00:54:01and shapes and sizes.
00:54:03I just don't know.
00:54:04I honestly just don't know.
00:54:07I think Bridges brings a lot to the table for them.
00:54:09And it wasn't a one-for-one trade-off, right?
00:54:10Like they lost Hartenstein
00:54:11because of other cap rules
00:54:12that prevented them from spending as much on him
00:54:14or giving him as much as the Thunder could.
00:54:17I just think they're gonna miss him.
00:54:19I think they're gonna miss him a lot.
00:54:21And it tamps down my expectations
00:54:23just slightly for the Knicks.
00:54:24On the other hand, look,
00:54:25all they have to do is get healthy, right?
00:54:27A full season of Randall and Anobi,
00:54:29Brunson and the rest,
00:54:31and they're super deep.
00:54:33They're really good.
00:54:36I think the Celtics, they should worry them.
00:54:38They absolutely should worry them,
00:54:40especially because of the array
00:54:41of perimeter defenders they have
00:54:44who can at least try to slow down Tatum and Brown.
00:54:48But do I think they're gonna win 60-plus games?
00:54:50I think that part is probably unlikely.
00:54:52I will say, no coach in history values
00:54:56regular season games as much as Tom Thibodeau.
00:54:59That's fair.
00:55:00So he might actually wanna go for 62, 63.
00:55:03Who knows?
00:55:05It could happen.
00:55:05But my best guess is,
00:55:06that was a very long-winded answer.
00:55:08My best guess is,
00:55:09Celtics are still number one
00:55:10despite winning six fewer games.
00:55:14JQ, what do you think?
00:55:15How many wins?
00:55:16What seed?
00:55:1759 wins.
00:55:19Second seed, unless,
00:55:21and we kind of danced around this earlier in the show,
00:55:24Al Horford is gonna be responsible
00:55:26for a lot of the high-level play minutes.
00:55:29If Al Horford, God forbid,
00:55:31knock on anything vaguely resembling wood,
00:55:34gets a high ankle sprain
00:55:35and has to miss like six weeks,
00:55:37there could be a lot more losses
00:55:38headed in Boston's way.
00:55:40Just because the rest of the bigs
00:55:42are not very proven.
00:55:43I love them all,
00:55:44but there's a good amount of risk in this front court
00:55:48and not a lot of tools to fix it.
00:55:49So yeah, it could be worse than that.
00:55:53Considerably, possibly even like third or fourth seed,
00:55:56but for now, 59 wins, second seed.
00:56:00Word.
00:56:00All right, last couple of questions,
00:56:02then we're out of here.
00:56:03I've got, let's see,
00:56:05I think we're gonna just do two
00:56:07and then we're gonna get started wrapping things up.
00:56:10Howard, much has been talked about
00:56:13the Boston Celtics heading into this season
00:56:15as far as possible awards might be concerned.
00:56:19What do you think,
00:56:20what award possibilities are we looking at
00:56:22for this team heading into next year?
00:56:25It might be none.
00:56:27And it doesn't matter
00:56:29because the championship is the only thing that matters.
00:56:32I don't think Tatum is leapfrogging
00:56:33all those guys to win MVP.
00:56:36First, he has to leapfrog Jalen Brown.
00:56:41Did I just say that?
00:56:44I mean, it is kind of a funny ring.
00:56:46I mean, look, it happened, right?
00:56:48Like Jalen Brown won conference finals MVP
00:56:51and finals MVP.
00:56:52Like it's, anyway, I don't think,
00:56:54I don't think any of the Celtics are winning MVP.
00:56:57If Missoula wins coach of the year,
00:57:00it'll be because a bunch of dudes got hurt
00:57:03and they won 60 games anyway.
00:57:05So I don't think you want that scenario.
00:57:08To win coach of the year,
00:57:09you either have to have just
00:57:11an absolutely outstanding record
00:57:12or it's usually the overachieving team,
00:57:16their coach gets it
00:57:18or somebody who surprised us.
00:57:20And I just don't think the Celtics
00:57:21can surprise us now.
00:57:22So the possibility of coach of the year
00:57:24is probably out the window.
00:57:25Rookie of the year is out the window.
00:57:26Defensive player of the year
00:57:27is not probably on the table.
00:57:32Six man, maybe, but I don't know.
00:57:35What do you guys think?
00:57:36I just, like the all NBA stuff is what it is, right?
00:57:38Like Brown and Tatum are going to be
00:57:39in the running every year.
00:57:42But I don't, I think you meant
00:57:44the other awards, right?
00:57:45The of the year awards.
00:57:47I don't think that there are,
00:57:49for the reasons you noted
00:57:51and also just like players
00:57:52who could theoretically have the right
00:57:54skill sets and playing time
00:57:56to win the awards
00:57:56or in the wrong stage of their careers
00:57:59or will not be coming off the bench enough.
00:58:01So really the only thing that I want to see
00:58:04as far as major awards
00:58:05is Jason Tatum not winning MVP
00:58:08because if he wins MVP,
00:58:09then that means that a lot of the things
00:58:11that could motivate him into playing
00:58:13in a way that is not going to win
00:58:15the Celtics title,
00:58:16i.e. very individual and not team oriented
00:58:18as he had last season will be in play.
00:58:22So I don't, I think,
00:58:23I think there's a lot of teams in the East
00:58:25that really don't want to see their star
00:58:28or biggest star player become MVP.
00:58:31Like Joel Embiid, don't try to win MVP.
00:58:34Save your legs.
00:58:35Get to the playoffs healthy.
00:58:36I mean, as a Celtics fan, don't.
00:58:38But you know what I mean?
00:58:40I'm going to go off the wall here.
00:58:43Wild speculation.
00:58:45Guys, we saw some,
00:58:47we've seen some changes in the way
00:58:49that this award has been done
00:58:50in previous years,
00:58:51particularly in the last couple.
00:58:54Derek White for Defensive Player of the Year.
00:58:57Why not?
00:58:58Okay.
00:58:58Marcus Smart 2.0.
00:59:00Sure.
00:59:01Not quite so long of a gap
00:59:02between a guard winning it his last time.
00:59:06I'm just saying that guy's likely.
00:59:08Anyway.
00:59:09All right.
00:59:09He's got to beat out Wemby.
00:59:10That's the problem.
00:59:11He does have to beat out Wemby
00:59:12and Wemby is very, very good.
00:59:15All I want to do is throw some recognition
00:59:17for my man, Derek.
00:59:18I think it's a good call.
00:59:19I like that.
00:59:21All right.
00:59:21Last question,
00:59:22and then we'll get you out of here.
00:59:23The Boston Celtics are the defending NBA champions.
00:59:27They have, I think,
00:59:28largely by most metrics,
00:59:30had a successful offseason
00:59:32in that they brought back
00:59:33basically everybody who won the NBA title.
00:59:36But what's the biggest obstacle
00:59:38standing in their way
00:59:39between being the NBA champions now
00:59:42and being the NBA champions
00:59:44this time next year?
00:59:45Howard Beck, you're up first.
00:59:47It's always a lot harder
00:59:49to win the second one, right?
00:59:51We don't see repeat champions
00:59:52very much anymore.
00:59:54And every team that's ever repeated
00:59:56will tell you that the second one
00:59:57was way harder.
00:59:58And it's so many things
01:00:00that go into it, right?
01:00:01There's just the health
01:00:03and fatigue aspects of this.
01:00:04You've played a lot more games
01:00:06and a lot more minutes.
01:00:08Everybody's gunning for you.
01:00:09There's all that aspects of it.
01:00:11There is a motivation aspect too.
01:00:12When the Warriors won 73 games,
01:00:14and I know, oh,
01:00:16they blew the three to two
01:00:17or three to one lead and blah, blah, blah.
01:00:18They won 73 games,
01:00:20the most in NBA history
01:00:22after winning a championship.
01:00:24Improving your win total at all
01:00:25after winning a championship,
01:00:26I think is probably fairly rare.
01:00:30Winning a lot more games
01:00:31is even more rare.
01:00:32And winning the most games
01:00:33in NBA history,
01:00:35it's one of the most impressive things
01:00:36I've seen, right?
01:00:37I know it's not the same thing
01:00:38as winning three in a row.
01:00:39It's not the same thing
01:00:40as a championship itself.
01:00:41But winning 73 games
01:00:42because you have to decide
01:00:44every single night
01:00:45in this long ass season,
01:00:47while you still are trying
01:00:48to get to June again,
01:00:50this game is just as important
01:00:51as all the rest.
01:00:52That's a really,
01:00:53and we talked about this earlier
01:00:54about the psychology of competition.
01:00:57To will yourself
01:00:59and convince yourself
01:01:00to put forth that amount of energy
01:01:03and concentration and effort
01:01:04every single game is hard.
01:01:07And so it's only natural.
01:01:09And we saw it with the Nuggets
01:01:10this past season, right?
01:01:12It's only natural.
01:01:13There's got to be a little bit
01:01:14of a letdown,
01:01:14a little bit of a hangover,
01:01:15whatever you want to call it.
01:01:17And then in concert with that,
01:01:19there is sometimes an issue of
01:01:21do some players
01:01:22let it get in their heads
01:01:23that like I'm the reason.
01:01:24And so now I need more.
01:01:26And, you know,
01:01:28I know Celtics fans are tired
01:01:29of people pitting
01:01:31Taylor versus Brown and all this.
01:01:32And I'm not looking to do that.
01:01:33But I will just say,
01:01:35you know, these are still
01:01:36fairly young players
01:01:37who are still stretching out
01:01:39and spreading their wings.
01:01:40And it's not unheard of
01:01:43in this league.
01:01:45I covered Kobe Bryant
01:01:46and Shaquille O'Neal.
01:01:47It's not unheard of in this league
01:01:48for somebody to say, you know what?
01:01:50I just showed how much more I can do
01:01:51and I want to keep doing more
01:01:53and lose track at times
01:01:55of the bigger picture.
01:01:56I'm not saying it's going to happen.
01:01:57I'm not saying Brown versus Tatum.
01:01:58I'm just saying
01:02:00ego and individual goals
01:02:03do sometimes interfere with a team.
01:02:06It happens.
01:02:07I'm not predicting
01:02:08it's going to happen in this case.
01:02:09I'm not hoping it will happen.
01:02:10I'm not wishing it.
01:02:10I'm not anything.
01:02:12But if you ask the question
01:02:13about what things could hold them back
01:02:15or derail them,
01:02:16those are the theoretical possibilities.
01:02:18And that's all I'm putting it out there
01:02:20as a theoretical possibility.
01:02:21The health fatigue hangover stuff is real.
01:02:23That's just an every year thing
01:02:25for champions.
01:02:27And then on top of that,
01:02:28there's just the obvious,
01:02:29which is the rest of the league
01:02:30is getting better.
01:02:31You know, the Celtics,
01:02:32there was nowhere to go.
01:02:33There's nowhere to go
01:02:34except sideways or down, right?
01:02:36Like they were not going to improve
01:02:38materially the roster,
01:02:40but everybody else did.
01:02:41Like the Thunder got better.
01:02:43They added Hardenstein and Caruso,
01:02:44and plus they're a young team
01:02:45that's evolving.
01:02:47The Knicks got better
01:02:47and the Sixers got,
01:02:48I think the Knicks got better.
01:02:49The Sixers got better.
01:02:50The Pacers are young and improving.
01:02:53Dallas improved.
01:02:54Everybody else improved.
01:02:56So the other thing that gets in the way
01:02:57is just the fact that
01:02:58you have to,
01:03:00without having added anybody,
01:03:02somehow stay ahead of all the competition
01:03:04that all just spent the off-season
01:03:06building to try to take you down.
01:03:08JQ, what's the biggest obstacle?
01:03:11Luck.
01:03:13You have to be lucky to win a title,
01:03:15and they were very, very,
01:03:16very lucky last season
01:03:18in terms of health,
01:03:19in terms of draw,
01:03:20in terms of just about anything
01:03:21you could think of.
01:03:21There were very few things
01:03:23you could point to and say
01:03:24the Celtics were unlucky
01:03:25on their way to this title.
01:03:27It's actually taken on its own life
01:03:29in a very stupid narrative
01:03:31that tends to pop up.
01:03:32I mean, we were saying the same thing,
01:03:33not we particularly,
01:03:35but there were things said,
01:03:36for example, about the Lakers
01:03:38when they won their bubble title.
01:03:40There's always these narratives,
01:03:42but there's also a grain of truth
01:03:44in the fact that
01:03:44you just have to be really lucky,
01:03:46and maybe it's not their year.
01:03:48Maybe it is, but maybe it's not.
01:03:51They're not going to go 16-3 again, right?
01:03:54They're not going to face a team
01:03:55like the Pacers in the conference finals again.
01:03:57This time, they're going to get
01:03:58the Knicks or the Sixers or the Bucs,
01:04:00mostly.
01:04:02I think for me,
01:04:03the biggest thing standing
01:04:05between the Boston Celtics
01:04:06and the title is
01:04:07how are they going to make
01:04:09the vibe adjustment
01:04:10without Mike Gorman calling games?
01:04:12Because to me,
01:04:13that was actually an essential piece
01:04:14of their massive success last year.
01:04:17Shout out to the legend, Mike Gorman.
01:04:19Please enjoy retirement.
01:04:20Hope you don't come back.
01:04:22But it is going to be
01:04:23an interesting vibe shift.
01:04:24That's all I'm saying.
01:04:25Anyway, Howard Beck of The Ringer,
01:04:28thank you so much for coming on
01:04:30the Celtics Lab podcast today.
01:04:31Anything you want to plug
01:04:32before we get out of here?
01:04:34No, thanks.
01:04:35Appreciate it.
01:04:36Nothing specific.
01:04:38People can, of course,
01:04:38find me on the health site,
01:04:39Twitter at Howard Beck
01:04:42and all my written work
01:04:44at theringer.com.
01:04:45And the Real Ones pod
01:04:48is kind of intermittent
01:04:50at the moment
01:04:51until we get closer to October.
01:04:53But you can find me, of course,
01:04:54on the Real Ones podcast.
01:04:56We have an episode coming,
01:04:57I believe next Thursday,
01:04:59August 22nd.
01:05:01And yeah, find me there.
01:05:04But this has been great.
01:05:05Appreciate you guys having me back.
01:05:06Of course.
01:05:06Happy to have you.
01:05:07Dr. Quinn,
01:05:08where can we find your stuff?
01:05:10You can find it on Celtics Wire,
01:05:12which is probably where
01:05:13you came across this.
01:05:14If you were not already
01:05:16subscribed to it,
01:05:17got some big changes
01:05:18coming there pretty soon.
01:05:19That's what I was alluding to
01:05:20at the start of the show.
01:05:21Nothing bad,
01:05:23just different looking things.
01:05:25So keep an eye out for that.
01:05:27Fabulous.
01:05:28And listener,
01:05:29if you like the music
01:05:30that you heard at the top
01:05:31of this podcast,
01:05:32that's my band,
01:05:33Divine Sweater,
01:05:34playing our single 2x2,
01:05:36you can catch us on tour
01:05:39coming very soon,
01:05:40September onwards.
01:05:42If you like that song,
01:05:43you can follow us
01:05:44on Instagram, Spotify,
01:05:45Apple Music,
01:05:46wherever you like
01:05:47to listen to music
01:05:48and check all of those areas
01:05:50for various updates there.
01:05:51I'm Alex Goldberg.
01:05:52This is the Celtics Lab podcast.
01:05:54And this episode
01:05:55of the Celtics Lab podcast
01:05:56is brought to you by PrizePix,
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01:05:59partner of the CLNS Media Network.
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01:06:06And if you enjoyed this pod,
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01:06:17Thanks for listening.
01:06:34Like you told me I should
01:06:36Why don't we cut to kind of life