Conversation with Jack Bingham

  • yesterday
When I find a great app, I love to talk to the developers behind it. And if I find an issue, I really want to talk to the developers. And Jack is one of those developers.

He has an app that's helped me quite a bit. So I wanted to have a conversation with him and see what kind of person he is.

In this conversation, we talk about his app, and how he works. Which is quite similar to the way I work. Also, what he's done for his team sounds identical to what I do for my clients.

It's always interesting to get another perspective on simplifying the tech for you and your team, So it was fantastic having a different angle.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we enjoyed recording it, and if you have any questions, let us know.

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Transcript
00:00When I find great apps, I love to talk to the developers behind it.
00:04And if I find a little issue, I really want to talk to the developers behind it.
00:09And Jack is one of those developers.
00:12He creates an app that has actually helped me quite a lot.
00:16We'll get into it in the conversation.
00:20And I wanted to just basically have a conversation with him and see what
00:24kind of person he is.
00:25In this conversation, we talk a lot about his app, the way he works.
00:30His way of working, which is so similar to the way I work and what he has
00:35done for his team.
00:36It's basically what I do for my clients.
00:39And it was really interesting to get another perspective as to how to
00:44simplify your team, your workflow and stuff.
00:48So it's great having a different angle come from him, basically.
00:53But in this conversation, we talk about everything.
00:56I had a mind fart as well.
00:58I still haven't figured out what I meant to say, which I will and I'll
01:03send it to him.
01:05But anyway, enjoy this conversation.
01:07As I said, again, like we enjoyed recording it.
01:10And if you have any questions, let us know.
01:12Here's our conversation.
01:15It's so funny how this whole it's so what actually happened.
01:19It was a time time zone thing in the sense that you didn't I don't know
01:27what happened.
01:27It was just very simple.
01:29I misread the time, right?
01:31Okay.
01:31Yeah.
01:33I don't know if you ever get this, but like sometimes my brain is like
01:38I'm 100% correct.
01:39It doesn't matter what someone says to me.
01:41Yeah.
01:41Oh, yeah.
01:42And you're like, oh, we have it down for an hour.
01:44And I'm like, nope, it's now.
01:46Yeah, then I suddenly realized I have to go through and realize myself and
01:51then I realized, yeah, I'm the time zone guy and I don't know my own time
01:55zone.
01:57Yeah, haven't seen the best of us.
01:58I'm like that probably about 98% of the time and that's why, you know, I
02:03always tell people when people say, when do you have time?
02:08I usually just say no.
02:10When do you have time?
02:10Because my time is so elastic.
02:14I can either move things around or there isn't that much stuff in, you
02:18know, but that's what I love about simplicity and how how I work, but I
02:25wanted to have a chat with you mainly because of your app.
02:31Not because of the things that you said on Twitter, but I loved your app
02:37now last when are people going to listen to this?
02:40Yeah.
02:40So last week I did a conversation with another indie developer about a
02:45product and I love indie developers because they're they're ready to talk
02:51to people.
02:53And in fact, Chris from last week, he creates an app called mogul.
02:59He started talking to his users.
03:02The customers is the people who are using his apps and he's getting so
03:05much insight from them.
03:08It's which is amazing.
03:09And that's what I love about indie developers because they do that and
03:13that's how in a way how we met.
03:15Yeah.
03:16Yeah, like exactly.
03:17That's exactly how we met.
03:19So the just going straight to the user is just the best way of getting
03:24feedback.
03:25I actually I used to work for a startup where we didn't really speak to the
03:29users at all.
03:31So we were always guessing and it was for me.
03:33It was stressful because I I want to make sure that what I'm doing is
03:36successful.
03:38So just to be able to even just read the App Store reviews from people and
03:43just be able to respond now, like I don't think devs you didn't used to be
03:48able to do that.
03:49Right?
03:50So now I can respond in the App Store review and say, hey, email us.
03:54I'd love to chat more about this problem.
03:55You're facing or if it's a feature request, let's just talk more and I
04:00actually set up a few paid kind of user interviews from the App Store where
04:05we just we just paid some people who were using the app to just tell us what
04:09they hated about it and what they liked about it.
04:11And that led to the time scrubbing feature, which we had actually had a
04:16plan for that because it was essential to what we were trying to do.
04:19It was just for the version one.
04:20It was just a lot of work.
04:22Yeah, but it was but it was also good to get a confirmation that people were
04:25looking for that.
04:27So when as a designer, it gives you just that confidence to just crack on.
04:32Let's just do it.
04:33Everyone's asking for this.
04:34We want this.
04:34Let's just try it.
04:37I mean, it's good for I mean, it's good for developers to have their own
04:41roadmap for sure.
04:42I mean, you don't want what this is what I feel.
04:45I'm not a product manager.
04:46I think I missed my calling, but I'm not a product manager.
04:49I just love using tools and I love finding what's wrong with them rather
04:53than what's right with them.
04:56And I I shit on a lot of apps.
05:00Actually, I come from the other side of it where I think I'm more in the
05:05in the camp of the customer than the developer, but when I find developers
05:09that like, yeah, we'll yeah, we'll change this but there's a fine line
05:14and I think you you understand this as well because Chris did there's a
05:17fine line between saying yes, we'll do this but then you get to you get
05:23too much input and then it won't doesn't become your product doesn't
05:27become the core product and I think that's a problem a lot of companies
05:31that I know of ClickUp which I talk about a lot have an issue with they
05:36just add so much stuff in I'm glad you brought up ClickUp because I'm
05:39being bombarded with ClickUp ads and nothing against the team nothing
05:44against what they're trying to do.
05:47It's just not for me.
05:48So the whole premise is things are simpler if everything is in one
05:54place, but to me that just means everything's busy in one place.
05:59It doesn't really solve the problem.
06:01It just brings everything into one tab.
06:03So we've had to over time like we've had to over time figure out which
06:09tools to use and which to drop and we're happy using multiple tools,
06:12you know, we just bookmark them.
06:14It's not it's the problem isn't being able to access the tools.
06:18It doesn't matter.
06:19They're not all in one place.
06:20It's just finding the right tools.
06:22I used to love Asana.
06:23We don't use Asana anymore.
06:24The team at Friendly changed and we just use Notion now for most things.
06:32So, yes, ClickUp for me doesn't work, but I know designers and
06:37managers who love it.
06:38So for them, it's solving a problem that I don't have, which I think
06:41is why it's so important to talk to a broad variety of users because
06:47they're like the originally with the very first app release people
06:49saying, oh, it's perfect.
06:50It's great.
06:52So we could have just said, okay, we'll stop but we know other users
06:55want more and yeah, we don't say yes to everything.
06:58Just from our intuition, we have like a hundred things we'd like to
07:01try and the user feedback just kind of helps us prioritize.
07:06But compared to like my normal daily work with Friendly, TimeZone Pro
07:11is so simple.
07:13It's kind of almost silly to have a roadmap.
07:15Literally, it's got like four features, you know, it's for us.
07:18It's so simple.
07:21It's really odd speaking.
07:22Honestly, it was just some practice for me.
07:25So I burnt out and I wasn't designing for about 18 months and I wanted
07:29to get back into design but not work directly for one of our clients
07:32because I didn't want to test out my abilities on a paying client.
07:37So I just thought let's do an app.
07:38We had a problem with our current team that was distributed over the
07:42planet.
07:42Right.
07:43We have people in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, the US, Europe.
07:48So for us just thinking about scheduling just a quick team call, it
07:54was nice to say, hey, what time is it for Zane when it's 9 a.m.
07:57for us here?
07:58What time is it for him in New Zealand or Australia?
08:01He's going to hate me for saying New Zealand, but yeah, don't make
08:05that mistake.
08:07But we have a designer in New Zealand as well.
08:08So this is exactly why I needed the app because you just can't hold
08:12it all in your head or I can't anyway.
08:14No.
08:16And a few other people, it was meant to be an internal tool, a few
08:21other people like we'd love to have this for what we're doing.
08:24And I was like, okay, great.
08:26Checked out a lot of other time zone apps and they tend to just
08:29have countries.
08:30So you just say I want to add New York or add cities, but you kind
08:35of forget why you added them and who lives there.
08:38So really it's just a contact list with their time.
08:40So simple, but it's just really useful for us.
08:43So when I first saw it, I was like, why is no one else thought
08:49about this?
08:50Because it's such a simple use case that people need.
08:57It's like, I mean, I have clients all over the place.
09:01So I put them in there.
09:02I put in people who I do these conversations with.
09:06So I know roughly, you know, I actually I didn't put you in there
09:10which is stupid of me as well.
09:13But yeah, it's such a simple tool.
09:16That's why I loved it.
09:17And the the fact that I could talk to you and say, by the way,
09:21have you thought about and then he was like, oh, yeah, let's put
09:25that in and you put it in and I'm like, this is all we need.
09:28We just need where this person is for me.
09:32If it's today or tomorrow.
09:34That was the thing that I was asking for because because plus
09:39GMT-7 doesn't make sense to a lot of people.
09:44Originally, you didn't want to know the time difference.
09:47You didn't care.
09:47It didn't make any.
09:48Yeah, that part.
09:50Of course, it's good to have a lot of people would want it.
09:53But my use case was well, I don't want to do math in my head.
09:56The whole point of an app and a computer is to tell me what's
09:59going on.
10:00So I thought well if you just said the time and whether it was
10:04today or tomorrow because sometimes they're very close.
10:07It would make a lot more sense.
10:09Yes.
10:09So the first version I was totally wrong.
10:12So I was designing for Canada and the UK at first.
10:18In Canada, a couple of our designers are in Vancouver or Toronto
10:23which are the other sides of Canada.
10:25So all I wanted to do in my head was just be able to see their
10:28time difference versus me.
10:31But then I forgot about our New Zealand and Australian people
10:34who are in the next day.
10:36And at that point, you're like you really need to have a day
10:38or today or tomorrow.
10:39Otherwise, it's like the times just looks confusing.
10:44It's like 7 a.m.
10:46Wait, they're behind us now?
10:48Well, no, it's just tomorrow.
10:51But these are just things that you just kind of mess up.
10:57You know, we're just like it's really iterative and it's like
11:01for me like if it wasn't for your feedback, I'd have just
11:02carried on as we were.
11:04Right.
11:04And then you get along.
11:05It's like, oh just can use it tomorrow and it's just so simple
11:07but it makes a huge difference.
11:08So let's just do it.
11:09Yeah, it is.
11:11We can't cover everything now speaking.
11:13Honestly, that's something I should have noticed but it was
11:16just because I was using it with like one or two people and
11:18now we have like 60 people on the app.
11:20It makes total sense.
11:21So as as your kind of use case changes, you get to think more
11:26about features that kind of make it more universal for more
11:29use cases rather than just a very specific one that I was
11:32using that I had at the time.
11:34So no, absolutely.
11:36And this is why it's great for indie developers to listen to
11:39talk to not necessarily to add that feature in but kind of
11:44jog your head as to kind of.
11:46Oh, yeah, that's a good.
11:47That's a good point.
11:48I forgot about this or yes.
11:51Yeah.
11:51I mean, that's the main reason.
11:53I mean, there's so many developers that don't listen at all.
11:57They just do their own roadmap and there's no input and then
12:01you get this mishmash of like, why am I using this going back
12:05to like having an app that does everything I used to be in
12:09that camp many many years ago.
12:11And then when I got into doing the work that I'm doing now,
12:16I realized that the client doesn't give a rat's ass as long
12:20as the work is done.
12:22And as long as they kind of interconnected in a way and this
12:25is another issue I have in general with computer computer
12:30technology and I mean, I'm a tech guy for 30 years, but you
12:33know, the computer is this to help us out a lot of people
12:37make a lot of apps app makers and software designers make
12:41apps and they effectively siloed but then you have apps like
12:47Zapier and it's the mat or whatever that come in that glue
12:51it together.
12:53But why would you need that if you have you know what I mean?
12:57It's kind of counterintuitive and it doesn't make sense to
13:00me because every developer works in their own little silo
13:04and that's something that can't be fixed overnight.
13:06It just isn't I understand that I think the main use case
13:12for us with unifying our apps is simply for team visibility.
13:17So we don't really want to have like a spreadsheet with tasks
13:22in on Google Sheets and other things in other programs.
13:28If the whole team is meant to be looking at the same thing
13:31notion solve that for us.
13:33I could link some databases in and only give the team of the
13:37information they needed to see.
13:39So that's why we love notion is because I can bring in a linked
13:42database and say my team don't need to see that information.
13:46I just won't show it to them.
13:48So it's almost like all these apps that bring stuff together
13:53are showing the team too much.
13:54We don't want that it kind of doesn't help with productivity.
13:58So that's what I love most about notion is kind of the power
14:01of being able to set it up for your team because it's a really
14:05kind of universal application that you can use for so many
14:08different things like you could use it for building a house.
14:10You could use it for managing your family.
14:13It's that's what I love about it.
14:16So yeah, I think going back to when I was doing the user
14:20interviews, I made the mistake at first of asking them.
14:24Hey, what's what would you like to see it?
14:27What kind of features would you like, you know, kind of like
14:30a I was a waiter at a restaurant, right?
14:33And it kind of led to just like a lack of understanding on my
14:40side because I couldn't figure out why they were asking for
14:44these things.
14:45They were the way I was posing the question didn't didn't kind
14:49of encourage them to answer like that.
14:51So I started to say what do you do?
14:55Who do you work with?
14:56What's what's what's tricky right now and for the most part
15:01it was scheduling calls in the future with people all over
15:04the world and that's what we were having.
15:08And we just start a conversation from that point rather than
15:12from you know, the menu of features that we could just say
15:16let's try all of these.
15:18So I just really enjoyed it because it just gives me ammunition
15:25as a designer to say we know this is either going towards
15:30solving for this use case or it's moving away because we could
15:34solve other use cases and it would be a brilliant design, but
15:37it won't serve the majority of our users and because it's a
15:42paid app.
15:43I kind of want it to feel like we care about it because we
15:46do there are other apps that there is another one or two
15:49apps that do what we do, but they're restricted in like where
15:54you can view them.
15:55So I think one of them is just on Mac or just on Android or
16:00something right and the cool thing about ours is just it's
16:04just synced with iCloud.
16:05So you download it on your Mac and your iOS devices you add
16:11all of your users and then you can just see it on your Mac.
16:14If you're on your phone, you just instantly appears.
16:16Yeah, and this was just a really nice feature for us because
16:19we didn't want to add things everywhere and the point where
16:23we're thinking.
16:25Do we actually turn it into a company?
16:27We've had companies come to us and what we would like is the
16:31ability for one person at our company to sign in create all
16:36of the contacts and then invite different teams like, you know,
16:40like a seat paper seat plan.
16:43The only one person sets us all up and then you just invite
16:46your design team and the design team get the app and they
16:49haven't got to add everyone all over again.
16:51It's just a huge waste of time.
16:53So yeah, and you'll be able to select set permissions, you
16:56know, the design team only need to see these clients devs only
17:00need to see these clients Etc.
17:02But with that you'd have to have your own cloud service.
17:06You wouldn't be able to be a lot of work.
17:08So right now it's super simple.
17:11It works really well.
17:13We kind of did like a halfway house feature where we allowed
17:16users to export a file from the Mac app.
17:20It's kind of hidden right now, but you can import a file from
17:23a friend and it just populates all of the same context that
17:26they have as well.
17:27So it's like it's good for teams.
17:29It saves us from having to bother with user accounts and
17:33setting up billing and all this legal stuff because right now
17:35we don't collect any personal data.
17:37Our privacy policy is literally just we don't collect your
17:40data.
17:40It's so nice.
17:41Like I think people want that especially in recent times.
17:45Oh, wow.
17:46Even though my website, I don't have any cookie things because
17:49it's like, what do I collect?
17:51There's nothing I collect.
17:53I don't have any, I have Fathom instead of Google.
17:56I stay away from Google.
17:57I mean, yeah, all that stuff is a pain.
18:00The simpler the better, the simpler the better.
18:03That's the whole.
18:04Yes, I think like I was very like you and I was on my own
18:08solo and I tried to keep the simplicity in mind when you
18:12bring on a team.
18:15There are just some things you have to have.
18:17Of course, I wouldn't have before like time tracking for
18:20the team, like as managers, how do we make sure that we're
18:22kind of meeting the retainer hours we have set with our
18:25clients?
18:25We can't just rely on pen and paper.
18:28So there are, but there are some apps that like we use
18:31Harvest for time tracking, which does exactly what we need
18:34to do.
18:34We use like two of the features.
18:36We are happy to pay for it.
18:38It keeps the managers really happy.
18:42But yeah, we don't want an app that brings it together and
18:44keeps time tracking on the screen, but we're not in the
18:47time tracking mode.
18:48We want to just put that away, close the tab, you know, we
18:51don't need that right now.
18:51So I'm so glad you said that because a lot of people
18:56want that one app that does everything.
18:58As you say, it doesn't exist.
19:01And the thing is a lot of these one-shot apps one app that
19:05does everything.
19:06They don't do those individual things.
19:07Well at all.
19:09So it's a great idea.
19:11It's a fantastic, you know Valhalla of software, but it just
19:16doesn't work because it doesn't that are to do that.
19:20Well doesn't take notes too.
19:21Well, it doesn't do time tracking and I love the idea and
19:25I've said this to people before it's like Photoshop.
19:30Now, I don't know anyone anyone pro or or not that uses a
19:36hundred percent of Photoshop.
19:38It's just impossible.
19:39There's just no way I think I've used Photoshop since the
19:43one before cs1 whichever one that was right.
19:45You learn something every time you open the program exactly.
19:49So the point is the software you don't have to use all of
19:52the features, right?
19:54You just get the features that you get the software that
19:57you need the features that you need like you do with Harvest
20:00you use one or two parts of it just because you're paying X
20:03amount per month doesn't mean that you have to use absolutely
20:07everything, you know everything about it.
20:09And this is the fight I have with my clients because a lot
20:12of what I spend 20 euros for this and then 15 years for that
20:15and I'm like, yeah, but how much time is it saving you?
20:19It's thank you.
20:20It's we don't realize these days how cheap and easy we have
20:25it. Like really, you know, we have we have like 20 designers
20:29on the team.
20:30I think the bill is about 300 bucks a month.
20:33It's like a no-brainer like no brainer output the output the
20:36designers are putting out versus the cost of Figma.
20:40It's like thank you Figma.
20:42This is this is so generous of you and I think actually products
20:46would become worse if teams working on this one magical
20:51software does everything I like speaking from the other side
20:54where you're on a team building products what you really want
20:58and what leads to good products is a very small and efficient
21:03team focused on one or two problems getting paid really well.
21:08So if you find a team that's putting out a product that you
21:10love pay for it is supporting them and their families.
21:13You don't need to be paying for inefficient companies trying
21:17to do everything poorly pay for the ones that you love that
21:21do things really well and hopefully they can keep going like
21:26I'm more than happy to pay for the services.
21:28We use that save us time.
21:31It's the time factor.
21:32It's not anything else.
21:33It's not features.
21:34It's nothing to do with that.
21:36What people need to understand is that doesn't matter how much
21:39I used to use used to and there's a reason why I moved but
21:43Basecamp on my own hundred bucks.
21:46I don't mind saying a hundred bucks don't mind at all because
21:50it's a fantastic product and I use it the way I moved over to
21:53something else but that's not because of money or anything.
21:56It's just the other thing worked out better.
21:58So it doesn't matter the cost it matters how much time you're
22:03saving the ease of use of it how I'm getting clients in to
22:09that product because I work on my own and I need clients to
22:11see certain documents.
22:13So what's the easiest way for them to do it not necessarily
22:16me but for them to do it and I always look at the user experience
22:21of my for my clients more so than me and then I look at how easy
22:25is it is it for me and that's how I choose the tools basically
22:28and that's how I choose the tools for my clients when that when
22:31I work with them.
22:33It's interesting like the pricing the psychology behind the
22:37pricing was something that I only had to think about when we
22:40were putting time zone Pro on the App Store and I just couldn't
22:44decide how to do this.
22:45Should we do a free app with a you know pay this much a month
22:49to unlock a color theme right.
22:52It didn't seem like good value to me.
22:54I just thought let's just let's just throw it out for a fiver
22:58and I'm glad we did that because we actually attracted really
23:03really kind of productive reviews to the App Store.
23:08I think if we put it out for free we would be plagued by loads
23:12of reviews kind of saying this isn't doing what we're thinking
23:14it's supposed to do.
23:15You know, we want this and that I hate free.
23:19I hate free.
23:20In fact, I think everyone should start hating free because free
23:23isn't free free your pain for it somehow whether it's with time
23:28with that lack of features.
23:30No support support is a huge thing for certain software free
23:35is is the scourge of the internet.
23:38I don't do okay.
23:41I put content out for freeze because I just like doing this
23:44stuff that to me isn't work, but I don't have lead magnets.
23:48I hate Lee.
23:49I tried it don't like it's no point to it free is the scourge
23:54of the internet.
23:55I I enjoy a 30-day free trial and then paying for it when I
24:01realize this has changed our life.
24:02So Harvest was like that.
24:04There are some apps.
24:05I love Asana, but Asana is free to start and then they bother
24:09you with upgrade for this feature.
24:11You are trying to use that you can't and it yeah, I would
24:14happily have paid for it at the start but now I just feel
24:17frustrated because I can't do what I was expecting to be able
24:20to do.
24:20Yeah, I think the best what the best model is let your users
24:23try everything fall in love with it.
24:26Of course, they're going to want to pay if it's if it's if you
24:29think it's that good give it to them for free give them everything
24:32for free.
24:33Yes, and then say if you want to continue pay us it's a no-brainer.
24:38I just think
24:40they're nickel-and-diming.
24:41This is the thing.
24:42Yeah, this is that this is the problem with soft some software
24:44companies that they it's like with Asana as well.
24:48They used to have minimum five users.
24:50Now it's minimum of two users and then you can't do this.
24:54You can't do that.
24:55And if you want this you have to upgrade to this.
24:57I'm like Jesus Christ is software.
24:58Just give it out.
24:59Just give it out have one price like Basecamp does effectively
25:04and be done with it.
25:06And the problem is when you do it like how Asana does it and
25:10it's not just Asana other companies do it is that they get
25:14used by massive multinational companies and when you when
25:19you're spending I don't know five grand ten grand a month and
25:22you're one of these big companies you're dictating how the
25:26software should be and that's to the detriment of everyone
25:30else using it, which is probably the majority actually and
25:34that's a problem.
25:34I find with a lot of so and I think also like going on from
25:38that when you have the model of features hidden behind a pay
25:43wall as designers your focus is designing features that people
25:49feel like they need to have but can't get access to it filled
25:53you with this kind of okay.
25:55I guess I'll have to pay for this.
25:57It's a horrible feeling whereas if you're designing on a team
26:00where you get paid monthly for everything you're going to
26:02try and design everything to a standard that's like I want to
26:06just give the users what they're paying for rather than focusing
26:10on the premium features at the detriment of the free features
26:13that no one pays for what would we focus on that?
26:16No one's paying for it.
26:17It doesn't make any money.
26:18No.
26:19So true.
26:20I think that the pricing the pricing model also affects how
26:23your actual design team works as well.
26:25It's not just how many users sign up.
26:29Um now the other thing with the other thing with pricing is I
26:34don't mind paying monthly for any software as long as I'm saving
26:39time.
26:40That's the way I see it as a lot of people who went who went
26:45batshit crazy when certain apps went monthly right Adobe Adobe
26:51is one and the dough to be honest.
26:53Yes, it's expensive for me because I'm not the target market.
26:57I'm not a design.
26:58I don't use any of this but design is is extremely cheap.
27:02It's extremely cheap.
27:03Exactly.
27:03It's like nothing but they went they go batshit fantastical another
27:08thing.
27:08Yeah, everyone went crazy.
27:10I'm like guys like I initially went crazy as well because it's
27:16like I got you know, but then I realized I paid the reason I paid
27:20for it is one one feature of it, which is being able to propose
27:25times.
27:26I love that feature.
27:27And I thought you know what that's worth the monthly that's worth
27:31the yearly or whatever it is and it's not that expensive.
27:33It's like nothing so it's saving me time that one feature saving
27:37me time and then I use it all the other features and great now
27:40card hop is involved in that package as well, which is great
27:44because I use it anyway.
27:46So again as long please people are listening to this for fuck
27:50sake if the app is doing what it needs to do and you are
27:57saving time just pay for it the pushback is why I'm paying this
28:01for Spotify and paying this for Apple music and Netflix and
28:04stuff.
28:04I'm like, yeah, but that's not work tools.
28:07That's your priorities are funny thing.
28:09And I think this isn't I don't think people are just being
28:13difficult.
28:14I think this is a real problem like we have hardware that's
28:18worth thousands of pounds, but a 99 P app.
28:21Whoa, yeah, right.
28:24Yes, that's actually really scary because you have to try
28:29and you're in the back of your mind.
28:30You're always thinking I have to convince people somehow that
28:35this is worth one pound one pound.
28:38I know which is which takes up so much of your brain space
28:41because you're just freaking out about this, but I think it's
28:46just one of those things we have to sort of realize like, you
28:48know, people happily spend money on coffees every day.
28:52Yes, all this technology.
28:54Six pounds for a reason coffee.
28:55Yes.
28:56An intangible application that solves a big problem in their
29:00lives isn't worth money.
29:02And I think this is why we should stop doing free apps because
29:04it's like it's expected now.
29:07Agreed agreed and I think I know where it comes from.
29:10It comes from the you know, I'm old enough to know when you
29:16know when phone started when you got a phone it was for free.
29:21My first phone was a NEC 9a crazy.
29:24I know exactly where I bought it from in London.
29:27I used to live in London and that was my phone.
29:32They gave me the phone for free and it was like that for many
29:34years now.
29:35We're paying 1,500 euros for phone.
29:38It's ridiculous.
29:39Yes, but we're not getting bombarded with with adverts for
29:42ring-tones for five pounds a month.
29:44Do you remember this?
29:45Oh God, I remember those.
29:46I remember those and and the thing is we like you said we
29:51pay 1,500 euros for a phone, but we're like quit for an app.
29:55Yeah, you know, I'm not going to do that.
29:58Like are you kidding me?
30:00They said they have because they have this thing in their mind
30:04where it was free.
30:06The app was free.
30:07There are free apps that I can do this with but they're not
30:11Nowhere near as you know feature rich then you get apps.
30:18Sorry ads all over the place on the app except and people don't
30:21think about this and I wish and I wonder what's going to happen
30:26with the court case right now with Apple and the App Store
30:29and stuff, but I just kind of wish that you're not going to
30:36get rid of it because they're making millions, but I wish they
30:39basically got rid of these crappy free apps, which is what
30:42a lot of people are asking for right now.
30:44So it's crazy how these how people in general just don't want
30:49to pay for stuff.
30:50I I've I got fed up with it.
30:52I charge for everything or people pay for things that I I can't
30:57believe there are things like Call of Duty.
31:00I think makes billions on contract transactions for skins.
31:05So people do value stuff.
31:07It's just they value questionable stuff.
31:12It's like I have a second for my character here take seven pounds.
31:17Yeah, I think it's just all about priorities and what people
31:21like and a lot of the App Store kind of users aren't in the you
31:26know, they're not designers or developers.
31:28They're just you know, they just mark down the road who just
31:31wants to use a phone download a few apps and have fun.
31:37I think what you only want to pay for something if you realize
31:40you have a problem, but yeah, could it could it could it just
31:45very quickly could it be and this is kind of pushing it back
31:50on to you meaning the developers could it be literally the
31:54because you know what your app doesn't and things, you know,
31:59that is trying to fix the so could it be?
32:01Literally copywriting on the website.
32:04Yeah, could it be as simple as that?
32:06Yeah, I think so.
32:07This is when I realized marketing is really important for us
32:10on timezone Pro on the website, you know, I don't tend to think
32:17about marketing stuff and then I had to sell something and I
32:19was like, yes, people aren't gonna know what this is.
32:22So and also it's difficult to present it on the App Store
32:25too, because you don't get that much kind of real estate.
32:27You have like a few screenshot spaces.
32:29You have a field for entering descriptions.
32:32You don't know what keywords you should be using.
32:34I'm not an expert on SEO on App Store rankings and all that.
32:39So you do your best you watch the you know, you watch the
32:43trends on your analytics and you just pretend to know what
32:46it all means and just ask people.
32:50Hey, check out this site that we put together.
32:51What do you think it does?
32:52You know, is this useful to you?
32:53Would you pay for it?
32:55Some people couldn't care less some people, you know, love
32:58it and then they share it with their friends.
33:00Like it's a viral thing.
33:01Like, oh, I've shared it with so many people you wouldn't
33:03believe and the reason is because it is the best marketing
33:08and the reason why I share it is not because of you and making
33:11money for you and your family.
33:13It's because it's a good fucking app.
33:14It's something that works and I will, you know, clap as hard
33:20as I can for when I find an app that does that and I do it
33:23all the time and it's like I use I stopped using zoom about
33:28eight months ago, even though I had it for it, you know, I'm
33:31paying for it and I use around and why do I use around because
33:35it just worked it does exactly what I want it to do and it's
33:38really great for my clients and people I know zoom is good
33:43and use zoom and I'm like I use what I want to know how zoom
33:46did this.
33:47So my grandma will know what zoom is but not around and
33:51because what's funny is my grandma goes on zoom and the first
33:54question is how do I use this but she just thinks zoom is
33:58the only way to do it because we used around for a while
34:01too because when we're on using figma you want to be watching
34:04people's floating heads while you're talking about stuff and
34:08that was that was the feature that we love but then we found
34:10that feature only works on the desktop app and a few of our
34:14design team weren't even downloading it.
34:15They were just doing it in like the browser or something and
34:18it wasn't working and then my mirrorless camera didn't work
34:21with it.
34:22So that's something else you have to watch out for us as a
34:25developer is that these problems don't creep in as you're
34:30trying to solve something.
34:30You're not causing more problems and more frustration.
34:33Oh, yeah, and then that's just that's just the nature of it.
34:35That's why it's just so important to just be kind of in
34:39that product using it every day trying to break it trying to
34:44feel frustrated so that you can fix those frustrations.
34:47Yes, a lack of frustrations, even if the products ugly and
34:50doesn't really do much a lack of frustrations will make it
34:52feel like it's been well designed and honestly it has if
34:56you can get rid of all those frustrations.
34:57That's the hardest part.
34:58I think so.
35:00Yeah, I always say yeah, absolutely.
35:02I mean I always when I say to my clients and in fact I've
35:06written on my website.
35:08I like that.
35:09You should basically have no friction between you and the
35:12work you and the client and if you have those frictions, they
35:16need to be fixed and if you fix those frictions like I have
35:20for my own business.
35:22I work like three hours a day four hours a day don't need to
35:25do any more than that.
35:27It's because there's no friction with anything.
35:30It's not just the software.
35:31It's things around me the calendar and stuff.
35:33So like you say software is supposed to be there to help
35:37us and if you find something that you're trying to do in
35:42this friction pay the 10 bucks a month and fix that friction
35:46because you're saving yourself a little bunch of time as a
35:50designer.
35:50That's that's what I love most about design is that a tiny
35:56insignificant app on a spec floating around in the universe
35:59can make someone's life better.
36:02It's hard, but it's also really fun.
36:08So that's why I just I want to find the next problem that is
36:14yet to be solved because you as designers we also think oh
36:17everything's already been solved that there's so many tech
36:21codes out there doing stuff.
36:22There must be nothing wrong.
36:23But if you ask a friend to open their computer like the laptop
36:27and they'll complain about something.
36:29Oh, yeah.
36:29So I think I think there's always going to be stuff to
36:31solve which is just exciting.
36:34But yeah, I mean my job is basically trying to find the
36:40right software right workflow for that person.
36:44And so I see a lot of software and I say this all the time
36:49someone called me the tech communist.
36:51It's not me just using just use my software.
36:55No, if you need to use click up for a specific thing just
36:58because I don't like it doesn't mean you can't use it.
37:00I don't like an ocean.
37:01It's a great app.
37:02I don't like it meaning it doesn't fit for me.
37:05It does.
37:05There's no reason for me to use it, but it's actually a great
37:08app.
37:10It just does too much.
37:11And if you just give it to an end user who isn't tech savvy,
37:16they ain't going to use it.
37:17Like what the hell is this?
37:18Good luck.
37:19And if something goes wrong, you're on that phone or you're
37:22remoting trying to fix that thing.
37:24So I'd stick away from those kind of apps for my clients.
37:28Yeah, but yeah, it's finding the right solution for you or
37:34your team to make it work simply so you can only work
37:39three hours a day.
37:41I love it.
37:42It's great because you don't need that friction.
37:45Like you said, once you have that friction, it's a good.
37:48It's good to find people who are interested in finding the
37:52solutions people like you who do that stuff.
37:54So when you say designer, you're not talking about what do
37:57you mean by when you're a designer?
38:00You're not talking about just literally drawing.
38:04That's not the design thing that you're talking about.
38:07I know this right?
38:07I'm just saying it for people who are listening.
38:09Yes.
38:10So my day job is I'm more of a design manager now.
38:14So I was a product designer for about 10 years, burnt out,
38:19hated design, never going to design ever again.
38:22That didn't happen.
38:24Built up a team around me of really talented designers and
38:27developers and the mission of Friendly, which is Friendly
38:32Studio is our company, is just to improve the lives of designers
38:36and startups.
38:38Reducing friction, working with clients, making relationships,
38:42becoming friends, doing work, progressing, making it as simple
38:47and as easy and as enjoyable as possible.
38:49So I've gone from designing apps to designing the business
38:55workflow.
38:56I guess you could say design ops, but I don't really know
38:59what that means.
39:00It's just I'm just removing barriers for people and I'm
39:03trying to make it as efficient as and as fun as possible.
39:07So if someone says to me, I'm struggling to track my hours,
39:10it's my, I will sort it out.
39:12We'll find some software that does this and now we've got
39:14to a stage where the team are so happy with the software
39:18we've got in place.
39:19It's just an engine that's just cruising.
39:22Brilliant.
39:22And that's super exciting because when we first started
39:24it was extremely stressful.
39:26No one could have any visibility on what was going on.
39:31But I don't think there's a one, you know, it's not one
39:34solution fits all teams.
39:36No, like I'm not imposing this process or these workflows
39:40on a team as different team members come in with different
39:44organizational skills and different needs, then you figure
39:47it out.
39:48So it's not like you could write a book and say this is
39:50how you do a successful design team.
39:52Here you go.
39:53It's just talk to your team.
39:55How can you make their lives easier?
39:57What are the problems they're facing?
39:59So I guess in life, I look at things as, you know, problem
40:03solving, removing problems just leads to a nicer life.
40:07It's not, it's just the way I look at things, I guess.
40:10So when I've got lots of children and it gets disorganized,
40:14we have to sort it out.
40:15Otherwise their lives are a misery.
40:17Mum's life is a misery.
40:19So you don't want that.
40:20This is just how my brain works.
40:22And it's just, yeah, just trying to make things as efficient
40:24and as enjoyable as possible.
40:26And people do genuinely get happier as well.
40:30When you look back at the first time, you know, the designers
40:32were quite stressed.
40:33We couldn't figure out where we were spending time.
40:36Now designers are so happy.
40:37They can just focus on their work, knowing that software
40:40is working for them.
40:42We do a four-day work week now because we've saved a day
40:44of inefficiencies.
40:46Everyone loves Fridays off.
40:49And it's just, that's what I get up for, is to try and make
40:53it better and better and to make people happier and happier,
40:58basically.
40:59Yeah, I mean, you're basically doing what I do.
41:03And I'm glad someone else has said it because every time
41:07I say it, everyone's like, no, we don't need this.
41:09We'll just keep pushing this thing with square wheels.
41:11I don't care.
41:12Yeah, it does make a difference once your team is happy and
41:16once, not just, if you're working on your own even, once
41:19you're happy and you don't have that friction, you can, like
41:23you said, you've taken a whole day away, right?
41:27I have this problem.
41:28I have the exact same problem you have with my father.
41:31My father, you know, he's used computers since I was a baby
41:34and introduced me to them.
41:36So for me to tell him this, you're doing this, you could do
41:40it so much easier.
41:41It's really hard for him to change.
41:42I understand that because I'm the same way.
41:45I'm convinced, and this is the same when we're designing
41:48for products for our clients, is you have to give the user
41:52an example of the value that they're going to get out of
41:56putting effort into this product.
41:58You can't just say to them, if you do these steps, you will
42:02have an easier life.
42:03You have to show them that what they're doing right now is
42:06a pain in the butt and there is something else out there
42:09that exists.
42:10Otherwise, they aren't going to put the effort into actually
42:13making it happen because they're not convinced yet.
42:16So like with onboarding, we used to just, you know, a lot
42:19of designers, you just have empty states everywhere.
42:23For example, you go into an app where you have to, I don't
42:28know, design a template.
42:30Just bear with me.
42:32Rather than just having a page that says, you have no
42:35templates, why not create a template for a website?
42:39What you do is you show them a few amazing templates that
42:42your product can actually make happen.
42:46So when they create their own, in the back of their mind,
42:48they're thinking, if I go through this step, I'm going to
42:51have that amazing template at the end of it.
42:53Without those kind of demos at the start, people have
42:58no idea because they can't imagine the solution.
43:01That's our job.
43:01It's not their job.
43:02We have to convince them that these products are going
43:06to make their lives better, but demonstrate that before
43:09we say to them, you should use this product because
43:12it's great.
43:13It doesn't mean anything to them.
43:14You know, it's like learning things yourself rather than
43:18listening to wisdom from somebody.
43:20It's just you have to go through it yourself and to do
43:22that, you have to be convinced to spend the time because
43:25everyone's busy.
43:26So that's the real like tricky part is how do you get
43:31someone's attention for long enough to get to that point
43:34where they have a better life?
43:35That's the hard part.
43:37That's the challenge.
43:37That's the fun part for me and for our team.
43:40Yeah.
43:40I mean, when I see apps that give me an example, it makes
43:45a lot more sense.
43:47Like I use flow desk for my email and I have a bunch
43:53of templates.
43:55I'm no designer in any shape or form.
43:58I like things that look nice, but I'm not a designer.
44:00So I will go in and write an email and go, well, this
44:05looks crap and then I'll go and look at the templates
44:09and get ideas.
44:10Like you said, you get the ideas from the templates.
44:14So then when you, I'm actually going to be sending out
44:17an email today and I worked on it from the template.
44:20So it doesn't look too dissimilar from what I have, but
44:23it gave me a framework to work around the right fonts,
44:28the spacing and things like this, you know, so having
44:31those cues visual or not, they're very handy for people
44:36who don't know this stuff basically.
44:39And that's one of the most, yeah, I think one of the
44:42most difficult things for a designer to do is imagine
44:45that their users aren't designers.
44:47It's just something that you naturally think.
44:48You just think, oh, everyone thinks like us.
44:50So they'll just, you know, click here and create this
44:52and throw that in there and use these fonts.
44:55Give it to your family and watch what they do or give
44:59it to your kids.
45:00And okay, so we need to, you know, train and like on
45:05board properly.
45:06We're super lazy.
45:07We're just like, here you go.
45:08Yeah.
45:09And we wonder why people get stuck and close the tab
45:14and don't come back.
45:15You've just explained my website in a sentence.
45:19It's like, I'll build something.
45:20You're like, I love this.
45:21This is great.
45:22This is all you need.
45:24And then my best friend will look at it and go, what
45:27am I supposed to do here?
45:30Yeah, you know, so yeah, it's so true.
45:32I've had, I've changed my website so many times.
45:34It's crazy.
45:36Yeah, looking through the eyes of somebody else at
45:39something that you've put effort into making is really
45:42hard and you have to kind of detach your identity from
45:45your work.
45:46Yeah, separate it, put it out there.
45:48Don't be afraid to change it because ultimately it's
45:51not for you.
45:52It's not for us what we're designing.
45:54It's for the paying customers or the users who need
45:57this thing and for clients to be happy.
45:59It's not for our dribble page or our website, you know,
46:03so you just, but you just have to get over that kind
46:06of ego, I guess.
46:09Yeah, I don't know where I saw it.
46:13Someone was saying about hiring.
46:16Oh, Sandy Munro.
46:18He was talking about Tesla and so on.
46:21Do you know who Sandy Munro is?
46:24Sandy Munro?
46:25No.
46:25Okay.
46:26So he's an engineer.
46:28I need to see your face and then I'll know who they
46:29are. Right.
46:30He's an old guy with a mustache.
46:32He's this guy who tears apart cars and works with car
46:37companies.
46:38Anyway, he said something that really got me intrigued.
46:42He other than the fact what Steve Jobs said, you know,
46:47we hire professionals to tell us what to do not to tell
46:50them what to do, which is a huge thing.
46:52I have that trouble a lot, not a lot, but with some
46:55clients, they hire you, they give you loads of money
46:58and then they say, well, maybe you should do this.
47:00I've walked out of projects because of this, right?
47:02Yeah, but he was I've lost completely lost my train of
47:05thought, but he basically had this saying about how you
47:10should basically get your engineers to I've completely
47:19lost it.
47:20I've got this out.
47:22Yeah.
47:22No, this is I never edit anything.
47:24I've completely lost it.
47:25And if I remember, I'll edit it.
47:27I've lost my train of thought and then it's just come
47:29back to me just the right time.
47:30Yeah.
47:30Yeah.
47:31No, I've completely lost it.
47:32But he said something about how Elon Musk was help.
47:38Oh God, it's gone.
47:39It's gone.
47:39Forget it.
47:40It'll come back.
47:40Yeah, the weather's good today.
47:43It is.
47:44Yeah, I completely well, it is.
47:46It is here.
47:47You're in.
47:48Did you say the Netherlands?
47:49I'm in Amsterdam.
47:50Yeah, I'm in Amsterdam and actually, you know, the sun
47:53is coming out.
47:55This conversation has gone into a tangent, but that's
47:57all that's pretty good.
47:58Nice.
47:59But a lot of electric cars over there, right?
48:02There's good incentive.
48:03Actually.
48:04Yeah, there are.
48:05I've put my order in for the Cybertruck.
48:07So I'm waiting for that.
48:09Are you serious?
48:10Yeah.
48:10Yeah.
48:11Yeah.
48:11Oh God.
48:11Yeah.
48:12Okay.
48:12Wow.
48:13Wow.
48:14Wait for this thing to come.
48:16I cannot wait.
48:16That design is polarizing.
48:21You know, yeah, it is.
48:23Definitely.
48:24I saw it and I have a big American truck that you bought.
48:28Okay.
48:28When I was living there, I had one and I brought it over
48:31and I love big Tonka toy type things, right?
48:35Mine is from 1989.
48:37What is it?
48:38It's a Chevy Blazer.
48:40Okay, 1989 Chevy Blazer.
48:42It's in an original condition.
48:44I love this thing.
48:45And when that thing came out, I was like, yeah.
48:51You're like my dad.
48:52He went to America and he's like sat in these big V8s.
48:55Yeah.
48:56Compared to UK trucks.
48:58Yeah, like the big UK trucks here are tiny for the trucks over there.
49:02Ridiculous.
49:03Yeah.
49:04Yeah.
49:04Yeah.
49:05No, I when I saw it come up stage because I was watching it live.
49:09I was like and I ever found it accidentally because it's like Tesla
49:14revealing.
49:14I'm like, I don't follow Tesla.
49:16I don't share.
49:17I don't have shares or anything and I was like, let me watch this and I
49:20saw it.
49:21I was like, what the is that?
49:24This is so cool.
49:25And it took me a week to decide to whether I should order one or not.
49:29So like a week later week and a half later.
49:32I was like a hundred bucks.
49:33I'm just going to order one.
49:35I love I love that the Tesla have that they have that something where
49:40they can throw metal balls at the window and break them.
49:43Yeah, and I know but I think it's because they're authentic, you know,
49:47like Elon's like, oh, okay.
49:50What was it was it a Faraday car where they were like trying to show
49:55that it can be opened from the outside and it didn't work and it was
49:58super awkward and it was just like it was it was bad.
50:03But with Tesla, I think it's just you just have to be authentic and
50:06say, yeah, we make mistakes.
50:08I just imagine they didn't get bulletproof windows to that model.
50:11No, they did.
50:12Yeah, they are.
50:13They did do it.
50:14What happened?
50:15What this is the not the excuse.
50:17I think this is the engineering part of it is when they hit it with
50:20a sledgehammer.
50:22They got some hairline cracks and then when they did the ball and
50:27that's what I that's the engineering hammer.
50:29Yeah.
50:29Yeah.
50:30Yeah, basically, but then again, the hammer could have still broken
50:33it.
50:34So yeah, you know, this is interesting because this goes back to
50:39what we were saying in a way because people buy from people and
50:43that's why I think Tesla does well.
50:45So if you're an indie developer, you're a person, you're not actually
50:48a company necessarily.
50:50Yeah, right.
50:51Even though they're you've got a team behind you.
50:52You're still an indie.
50:53You're a person and I mean the internet for the past couple of
50:57years to three years, maybe maybe a little longer.
51:01It's turned from being buying from brand like branded companies to
51:08buying from people and consultants and coaches.
51:11Does that make sense?
51:12Yeah.
51:12So I think that's why Tesla is doing well in that in that stage
51:17because it's like it's you're buying from Elon, you're not buying
51:20from it feels like you're buying a card already from Elon.
51:22If you buy a BMW, you expect the huge team of incredible German
51:28engineers to have everything perfected.
51:30And if there's one rattle squeak, you're annoyed with Elon, you
51:35know, he's just like a dude that is finding it hard to build cars.
51:39Yeah, building cars is must be so hard like just things like, you
51:43know, a good steering wheel.
51:45Like yeah, there are so many cars with bad design inside and they've
51:51somehow managed to cobble together this package without any factories
51:55to start off with.
51:56They were like, let's just throw something up and just get something
51:58out and all and what's funny is all these Tesla's just destroyed
52:02performance cars on the road.
52:04These German cars that have been been perfected and refined and
52:08Tesla comes in with its panel gaps and bad build quality and does
52:12the quarter mile in about 10 seconds.
52:15So no one cares about the panel gaps because there's always this
52:18killer feature that is just makes you laugh.
52:22I think I think the the way that they've got to where they are is
52:29the technology not necessarily the car the technology in the sense
52:33that I've got this screen that does everything for me.
52:35It gets updated.
52:36Wow, it's cheap to run awesome.
52:39No oil.
52:39Wow, you know regen breaks.
52:42Oh, this is so cool and it's come at the right time for the internet
52:47generation, right computer lot computer people.
52:52I'm not in the age group, but I am one of those people right?
52:55I just want to protect to improve.
52:58Yeah, the batteries the battery only thing letting it all down thing,
53:01but I think with these new batteries that they're coming out with
53:05and the yeah, they're not solid state, but they're calling them solid
53:10state batteries that they're going to come out with after that.
53:13I mean a million mile battery that they're coming out with.
53:16I mean, this is insane.
53:17This is insanity.
53:18So imagine and test the Cybertruck with a million mile battery that
53:24goes 500 miles on a single charge.
53:27This is insane.
53:29I couldn't get all my kids in it as a Cybertruck.
53:32That's the only problem.
53:33You've got five kids?
53:35Almost five, four, one on the way.
53:37So we're stuck with vans.
53:40Well, it's got six, six seats.
53:44Oh, yeah, six seats.
53:47My wife could stay at home.
53:50We've got a family of seven soon, dude.
53:52Listen, two of the youngest can go in the boot.
53:55That's big enough.
53:56Just put a couple of seats in there.
53:58Do you remember those Volvo rear-facing seats they used to have?
54:00Yeah, yes.
54:01I used to love those, but I think like now they're like a kind of
54:05health and safety nightmare.
54:06But Tesla do that, don't they?
54:07They have those two tiny seats in the back somehow.
54:11The Y.
54:11I think it's the Y that they do, that does it.
54:15Or the new, I don't know, whatever.
54:19But you have five kids.
54:21How do you have time for, I mean, you're so organized.
54:25Yeah, right.
54:26Exactly.
54:26It's so organized.
54:29I don't know, to be honest.
54:31I mean, we obviously didn't start with five.
54:33You start with one and you figure it out.
54:35Yes.
54:36And every kid is different.
54:38You can't, I thought we'd program Josh our first perfectly and we just
54:42use that program on Olivia and Elijah.
54:45But for some reason they're not compatible with the programming.
54:49What's wrong with them?
54:53Yeah, you just have to, again, like, you know, I was raised in a quite
54:58strict family.
54:59You know, we didn't have user feedback sessions when I was a kid.
55:03We have user feedback sessions with the kids.
55:05Hey, Josh, what is frustrating you right now?
55:08Let's solve it, you know?
55:09Yeah.
55:11They have so many ideas.
55:13Like our kids are all under, they're nine, seven, four, and one.
55:20I won't show you this.
55:21I won't show this to your wife.
55:23Thinking.
55:24She'd be impressed with that.
55:26I usually have to ask her how old they are.
55:29Um, and they contribute.
55:31It isn't like they're just a drain on our resources.
55:33They contribute to the family.
55:36And like Josh is already in Figma.
55:37He's already getting into it.
55:38He is.
55:39Wow.
55:40That's awesome.
55:40That's what I love to see is products where kids can use them.
55:44And we have this photo of Josh actually with a, it's sort of, he's lying on the
55:49floor with one of those kind of like toy car things, like a plastic, colorful
55:54toy with like indicators and a horn and then an iPad to the right of him.
55:58He doesn't care about this toy.
55:59He's just focused on the iPad, just tapping around.
56:02And I love that.
56:03I love technology that kids can just access.
56:06The iPad has done a lot for that.
56:09A lot for that.
56:10It's, it's crazy that the, the amount of, I mean, even the iPhone, when kids
56:14pick them up, they instinctively know what to do with it.
56:18I mean, we had Etch-a-Sketch when we were young.
56:21Oh, Etch-a-Sketch.
56:21Oh, one nightmare.
56:22Yeah.
56:22Someone was saying if you pretend to go, if we pretend to go on a phone call, we
56:26do this with our hand.
56:27If kids go on a phone call, they do this with their hand?
56:29Yes.
56:30Yes.
56:31Like, okay, I can't wait to see what they get up to in, in 10, 15 years
56:36time, what's going to be happening and what they're going to be creating.
56:39They'll be like this.
56:40Yeah.
56:41No, they'll just be like this.
56:43Talking.
56:44It'll just be completely invisible, won't it?
56:46Yeah.
56:47I know.
56:47They'll be like, dad, can I have those headphones now?
56:49Cause I can talk to my mate Billy or whatever.
56:53Anyway.
56:54Hey, it's, it's been an awesome chat.
56:56Um, been from one, one end of the spectrum to the other and me forgetting
57:01what I was going to say, and I still can't remember.
57:02I really want to know now.
57:03You have to, you have to tweet me later.
57:06I will.
57:06Absolutely.
57:06I'm going to rewatch that video because it's, I watched it yesterday for goodness
57:10sake, and I've completely forgotten it, what he was saying.
57:13I'll find it and I'll send it to you.
57:14But, um, thanks again.
57:16Really interesting having a chat, especially the first time we've met as well.
57:21I know.
57:21It's great to meet you, dude.
57:22Have a great weekend.
57:23You too, man.
57:24Take care.
57:25Ciao.
57:25Speak soon.
57:26Bye bye.