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00:00Just to start, Chase, can you say your name, the club that you coach and the reasons why
00:12got you involved in coaching to start with?
00:14Jason Hyatt, head coach of Aberavon Rugby Club. What got me started in rugby really
00:19or coaching was I played rugby all my life since probably the age of six. I love the
00:25rugby culture. It seemed a natural progression going from playing into coaching. I was lucky
00:29enough to start coaching where I played all my junior rugby for an allied RFC, so very
00:34thankful of them getting me on the coaching ladder. Thoroughly enjoyed my time there.
00:39I actually had two stints there over my coaching career. Loved every minute of it and it was
00:45a great club to sort of practice my coaching skills and learn a lot about people, which
00:51I think modern day coaches now, that's probably 90% of your learning is learning how to deal
01:00with different types of people. I made some good friends in one allied and really learned
01:07a lot there. So that's really what got me into coaching, was just the opportunity really
01:12that I was given.
01:15Seasons come around really quick. How do you start planning for the season and what's the
01:19initial thoughts on that?
01:21If you start right at the very beginning, if you like, of planning, we start to contract
01:28players in December. So obviously our existing players, some players will be on two-year
01:33contracts over the last couple of seasons because there's been so much fluidity, if
01:39you like, with the premiership. We've contracted players for one year. So we start by contracting
01:45the players in December. Obviously by then we've identified players that we'd like to
01:49introduce into the squad, give them the opportunity to join the Wizards. And obviously we'd expect
01:55some of the younger players that we've earmarked for development, people like Luke Davis, Jacob
02:00Flynn, those sort of guys over the years that have come through, if you like, the development
02:07culture at the club. Then that's the first part of the process, getting our squad together.
02:13Then probably next we'd start looking at some warm-up games to try and get the structure
02:19of how our pre-season is going to look. And then we'd review the season that we're currently
02:25ending, and look at then any changes that are made or we need to make going into the
02:31following season. We understand rugby moves so quickly, with new rows coming in, and especially
02:37the coaches, the quality coaches that are in the premiership. We know our game gets
02:41taken apart on a weekly basis, so it's really important. We've got to continually evolve
02:45our game, and the players are involved in that, obviously, in the planning process.
02:50So that's where we'd start really. And then we try to give, last year we gave the players
02:54eight weeks off, which was two weeks longer than normal, and that was great. There was
02:58a marked improvement in the energy when we came back in. The phone didn't stop for that
03:04last two-week period, the boys were really chomping at the bit to come in. So I think
03:08I learned a lesson last year, sometimes giving the players that extra little bit of downtime,
03:15you get so much back in return. So that's how we'd plan out from the very start, get
03:21the players contracted, look at our fixtures, look at how our pre-season is going to look,
03:25before we start looking at the real nitty-gritty, the make-up of the session, if you like.
03:30Just going to drill down in part of that planning process, what do you think about and what
03:36do you really look for in that reflection period of the season that's gone?
03:43As you know, Greg, we've done a Level 4 together, and my philosophy is that the environment
03:49is everything. That underpins everything. Winning trophies, yes, we all want to win
03:54trophies, we all want to win games, but if we want longevity to what we're trying to
03:58create and the culture that we're trying to grow, the environment is everything. So when
04:03we drill down, we pretty much look at how the season's gone, what problems occurred,
04:10how we dealt with those problems, what we learned from it. The players, obviously, are
04:15a huge part of that process. We've got a great leadership group. I've actually, for this
04:20season, kept the same leadership group, which is unusual because we tend to change it, but
04:25I think it worked really well last year and we've really developed in all aspects, really.
04:31So that's part of the process that we use. We leave no stone uncovered. So we've got
04:42all of stats of attack, of defence, of set-piece, everything like that sort of comes together.
04:49But as a head coach, I'm probably more interested in the environment, how that's developed,
04:55how we drive that forward. That, for me, is the key to being successful on and off the field.
05:03Who do you involve in that process? Is it a collaborative approach? Or as a head coach,
05:08is it done mainly by yourself?
05:10Well, I can give an example of what we've done now, and obviously at different times
05:14now, with what's going on at the moment with lockdown and everything. So everything now
05:18is done online and through Zoom, and we've learned a lot by that. So how we've done it
05:24this year, and as you said earlier, we don't know when the season's going to start. So
05:28that's quite a challenge in itself. But what we've done, I've spoke to the leadership group.
05:33We had a meeting last week. The leadership group were asked to look at everything we
05:39do on and off the field, no matter how small a detail is, anything that will improve our
05:45environment. They're encouraged then, obviously, to think amongst themselves and individually
05:50for that, but also connect with the rest of the squad and get the rest of the squad's
05:55feedback. That feedback then we translate to each other, and then I'll present all that
06:04sort of framework to the coaches. And then we discuss it, and then it's very much a collaboration
06:09between the coaches and the players and everyone. I think some of the best ideas we've had are
06:17from some of the quieter members of the squad. So what's really important is we just don't
06:22have the confident players who've played over 100 games or whatever. Our challenge is to
06:28get the ideas out of someone maybe who we've invited to come training with us in the summer
06:32or somebody who's played five or six games for Aberavon, because very often they'll come
06:37up with the idea. Remember one thing we do, we clean the changing rooms after every game.
06:42Now, everyone jumps on a bandwagon and said, just because the All Blacks cleaned the changing
06:46rooms, we clean the changing rooms. We've done it for four years, and the guy who suggested
06:52we do it was Joe Gage, who was with us with the Ospreys at that time. He was an academy
06:58player, but he felt he left the changing rooms after one game and the guys were cleaning
07:03it up, and he didn't think it portrayed us in the correct light. So home and away, we
07:08clean all our changing rooms, and the coaches are involved in that as well. So that was
07:14one small piece of the jig, so that came out, which I think improves our environment
07:19and takes other standards forward. So that's how we approach that area.
07:25I can hear a lot through that reflection period. It seems a lot like you're problem-solving
07:30from the year before to improve for next year. Is that a fair comment?
07:34Yeah, definitely. I think you learn a lot sometimes from dealing with the problems.
07:40New solutions will come out of dealing with one problem, which I'm using as an example,
07:45maybe the set-piece. So we're talking about the set-piece, but out of that comes something
07:51totally unrelated, which drives the environment forward, and we've had that on numerous occasions.
07:57So I just think it's really important. We've all been in clubs where you're told what to
08:03do, you get on with it, you do it. I think any club or business or successful organisation,
08:09if you can get the ideas and get everybody feeling comfortable throwing ideas, and let's
08:15be honest, maybe 90% of the ideas we want to implement, whether they're coaches' ideas
08:21or players, but a small percentage of those could transform the way we play or the way
08:26we think or just the way our environment is evolving. So it's always worth really digging
08:31down into the environment. That underpins everything. For me, that is the very foundation
08:38of the club.
08:39Like every coach in Wales now, preparing for a long season, the season sometimes feels
08:45really long. How do you pick up a season and how do you measure success or when is your
08:50checkpoints within that season?
08:52Obviously, we get some good stats from the Welsh Rugby Union. Our analysis pretty much
09:02starts on Saturday night. We get the game off the camera guy, code it up ourselves,
09:08look at it, tie that in then with the stats we get off the union. They're really important
09:16to us. Obviously, the percentages on set-piece, line-out, scrum, attack, defence, line-break
09:22are really important. But I think I keep harping back to the environment and that's what I
09:29sort of measure our success on. We had a great season last year. We were in the semi-final
09:35of the cup. We were third in the league with the game in hand. We'd just beaten the league
09:39leaders, Cardiff. So we were in a good position. What really impressed me is now we're in this
09:46difficult period, there's been no sort of moping. The players have got on with what
09:50they've needed. They've done a great job with Age Connect. Chris Davis, who manages our
09:55social media, has utilised the players that aren't working in all sorts of roles, whether
10:02it's delivering food on the phone or whatever for support. And I think we've moved forward
10:07from that. So that's been a real challenge for us. A lot of downtime, unexpectedly.
10:13How the players have managed it is tremendous. Howard Thomas has put a competition together
10:18over a 5k run. That's engaged all the players and coaches. There's been some great times
10:24and some embarrassing times, including mine. And that's been really good. And I've enjoyed
10:29watching how that's developed and brought everyone together. And I think because of
10:34the work we've done in the past on our environment, that's a perfect example there of something
10:40sort of totally unexpected and the players have managed it really well. So I would measure
10:46success, to answer your question, looking at our environment, I would say that's a real
10:51successful outcome from a very difficult situation.
10:56It's a great topic that I've had with many coaches, really. Do you ever break the season
11:00up into sections or segments?
11:05I've never been one for really setting goals. I used to be. When I first started coaching,
11:10I remember having a sign up on the wall, you know, ultimate goal is to win. And the more
11:15experience you get, and I think when we did our Level 4 training, especially with Kylie
11:19Wilson, the psychologist, you know, very, very interested in the pressure that we were
11:23putting on those players then by pretty much demanding we win. And let's be honest, you
11:28could have a great game, you could play some great rugby, but you could lose to the last
11:32kick of the game for a penalty that wasn't a penalty. You couldn't turn up on a Saturday,
11:36it's pouring down with rain, you lose the toss of the coin and you go home thinking
11:39if we'd won that toss, we'd have won that game. So a lot of things are out of our control.
11:44But I think, no, I'm not really a big goal setter because the risk is that you don't
11:54achieve it and then the environment becomes deflated. One thing we do always, always set
12:00is we want to start the season well. So whether you can class that as sort of a goal, but
12:04that's very controllable. So the way we manufacture that is let's get a good pre-season done.
12:10We'll do our job in the background with the sign-ins, making sure that the squad is strengthened
12:14in the right areas, making sure our summer is structured well. As long as we cover all
12:20those parts off, then we've been lucky enough over the last two years to, I think we've
12:25won our first six games. And as you know, Greg, once you get onto a winning streak,
12:30it's infectious and the energy in the squad is high, makes our job easier as coaches.
12:37So for breaking the season up, I would answer that by saying I just look at the start. So
12:42I would look at our first four or five games and really focus on getting ready for that
12:47opening part of the season. Not too concerned about the warm-up games, get them out of the
12:52way, get a bit of rugby in us, give us a chance to look at some combinations. But by then,
12:59the team is pretty much selected.
13:01Just your thoughts on rest period?
13:04I think the rest period, it was an interesting one last year because, as I said, when I first
13:08started, I would like to have the guys in all the time and rest period was seen as perhaps
13:13shirking what we were doing. I think the game is so tough now and as you know, we play high
13:19ball in play time. We ask a hell of a lot of the players in training, massive amount
13:24of pressure on the families. And I think it's great now to have some downtime. So we structure
13:29the downtime in as and when really. So we give the players a little bit of notice and
13:34say, look, we're taking this week off. Quite interestingly, we structured downtime just
13:40after Christmas 2020 and the players felt as if they didn't need it. So we actually
13:47cancelled it and came in. So they're a good example there of real good links between the
13:53coaches and players, an open format of communication. The players felt like they'd rather train.
14:01You know, we came in and we trained. So that was just their feedback. But when we sort
14:06of structured any sort of downtime, we discussed with the players in the build up to it and
14:12basically throw it open and say, look, this is what we're thinking on this week. We got
14:16maybe two games. Then we got a little bit of downtime where there's no games for two
14:21weeks. We can have one week off and program it, maybe a conditioning session on Tuesday
14:26and look at it that sort of way. But the leadership group and obviously senior players, every
14:33player would be involved in that process, you know, in the build up to it.
14:37Do you have time throughout the season to learn yourself and have a period of time of
14:42reflection so that you could get better as a coach?
14:47Yeah, I think we vary. I like Greg, you know, when I train with you on a level four, you
14:55know, if we lose, it's my fault. You know, I take it on the chin, take it very personally.
15:00I think as I'm getting more experienced, I think you can easily beat yourself up, which
15:06obviously then affects family life and everybody feels, you know, if you're down, you sort
15:12of project onto everyone. What I've come to learn is as long as we've prepared properly
15:19and there's no demons rattling around in my mind that we haven't done this or we should
15:25have done that, then, you know, let's be honest, you're not going to win every game. So when
15:29you do lose, it's an opportunity to examine yourself, look at, self-reflect on the process
15:35you used during the week, team selection, everything tied in, the way we manage the
15:40referees, communication with the referees, was that right? I think that's, I try to see
15:47now when we lose as an opportunity to learn from that and sort of develop so we don't
15:53lose again. I suppose it's chasing perfection a little bit, which, you know, is not going
15:58to happen. But yeah, I think I can't, if we lose or we don't play well, I certainly can't
16:04just brush it off and get away with it. But I'm starting to sort of develop my side into
16:09managing that into, okay, dust that one off, how do we get better?
16:15Has there been any experiences that you've learned from mistakes around planning?
16:23Probably, yeah, I think, I wouldn't call it a mistake, but I think what we've done now,
16:32we've got Howard Thomas, who's our conditioning coach, and, you know, we like to play a certain
16:37way in Aberavon, so we've got to have our players that are capable of playing high 30-minute
16:41bowling play time. You know, we've won a lot of games in the last 20 minutes, so we're
16:47quite proud of the fitness of the players. I think in the past we've tried to cover all
16:53bases, so we want our players, you know, really strong, we want them really fit. I think the
16:58way we train has got to reflect in the way that we're trying to play on the field. The
17:03players that we've got, we're very, very fortunate at the moment, you know, people
17:07like Lloyd Evans came in, they've added another dimension to our attack in the wide channels.
17:13Alan Thomas has been tremendous at outside half, really complimented. James, who's been
17:18there for the last couple of seasons, and captain. So, I just think that, I wouldn't
17:24call it a mistake, but I think in the past we've tried to tick all the boxes, where what
17:29we focus on now is how we want to play and becoming really good at what we enjoy doing
17:35and what we're successful at. So, I don't know if that really answers it, Greg, but
17:41that's probably it on that.
17:44It's a good example, really, for any community coaches out there. You look at the tools that
17:51you've got within your squad, you look at your coaching set-up and the skill set within
17:55the management group, and you try to formulate the game plan that best suits the club and
17:59the environment and the culture within that club. So, I think it's a really good example.
18:04Just to finish off, really, Jase, is there any sort of key tips or key highlights that
18:09you would put out there to community coaches that were thinking now of planning this season?
18:15Is there anything that you would say is the key takeaways from our discussion?
18:19Yeah, I think, again, I suppose when we go into coaching, when I first went into coaching,
18:27I was lucky enough to play at a decent level and I had some good coaches. So, when I first
18:32took my first coaching role in Wynald, I would sort of use the experience I gained from my
18:38coaches throughout my playing career. I would always recommend that the young coaches do
18:45the qualifications with the union. If you're lucky enough to get invited to the level four,
18:50I came straight from school and went straight to work on a building site, so I didn't do
18:54the university or the A-levels. So, I found it really, really challenging, critiquing
18:58papers, referencing, but I managed to get my head around it and I got an awful lot out
19:04of it. So, I learned to balance my sort of views, do your research, read. I went to a
19:11coaching conference in France a couple of years ago, the Six Nations Coaching Conference,
19:16and I was given a book, The Score Takes Care of Itself by Bill Walsh. It just sort of reinforced
19:23my views and taught me how to refine my views, environment, talking about how we went into
19:29the 49ers and how we built up the environment as opposed to just trying to win trophies.
19:37It just sort of gave me confidence in my thoughts and my sort of philosophy. Another one I liked
19:42was Ant Middleton's book, First Man In, talks about leadership and how he viewed himself.
19:47He had to win everything to get the respect of his peers while he was training to be in
19:52the elite forces. How he learned that by helping the weaker member of the teams, he got more
19:59respect. That was really impressive. And I just think my advice, I'm lucky enough to
20:06have been coaching for a fair few seasons now, and I just think, look at your gut feeling,
20:11don't ignore it, and don't be afraid to make difficult decisions. As a coach, you come
20:16to a fork and you can take the left road where your gut feeling, you don't want to go down
20:22that road, but I know everyone will agree with you and it's a popular choice. If you
20:25go down the right road, in your heart, hearts and your gut, you know it's the right one,
20:30but you're going to come under a lot of criticism perhaps, but you know you're going to drive
20:35the environment and the culture forward. That's where you'll define yourself as a coach.
20:40And I think as you progress, you look back and if you take that road where to keep everyone
20:45happy, you learn a lot from yourself in those situations. So I would just really trust your
20:51gut feeling and your instinct and do your research. I've learned so much out of just
20:58scratching around and picking up different papers, reading different books. Absorb it,
21:03you don't have to use it, but it's nice to have that in the locker.
21:06That's great, well thank you Jase for your time, I know you're extremely busy. I wish
21:11you all the best for the season.
21:12Thanks very much Greg, appreciate it.