Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Oliver Leader de Saxe, joined by George Perfect, Conservative Leader of the Opposition at Medway Council and David Powell, Chairman of the Local Television Network.
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00:00Welcome to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV, the show that gets Kent's politicians
00:27talking. I'm Oliver, leader of the SACs, and it's time to talk taxes. £40 billion of them
00:33in fact, as Labour announced their first budget in nearly 15 years. It'll be easier to list
00:39what isn't changing than what is. 2% cuts to every government department, minimum wage
00:45skyrocketing, higher taxes on business based around national insurance, billions of pounds
00:51in compensation, and that's just for starters. Meanwhile, later in the programme we'll be
00:56discussing a historic Ofcom decision and the ramifications it has for broadcasters
01:01here in Kent. Well, to make sense of it all, I'm joined by George Perfect, the Conservative
01:07leader of the opposition here at Medway Council, as well as local TV network chairman, former
01:13UK diplomat and KMTV board member, David Powell. Well, George, I'm going to go to you first
01:19on this one, because there's a lot to unpack here. I want to ask you, George, what are
01:23your thoughts on this budget? It's not going to be one the Conservatives are particularly
01:27happy with this time around, is it? No, look, it's an absolute horror budget this week that
01:32was announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as you referenced. £40 billion worth of tax
01:38increases, £70 billion worth of extra spending over the Parliament, concerns from the Office
01:45for Budget Responsibility about the plans from the government, including downgrading
01:51growth, and really not a lot to be excited about, and things that are going to be very
01:56concerning for people on the doorsteps and out here in Medway. But there is some benefits
02:02for some working people, including the rise in minimum wage, which has proven divisive,
02:06but some people in Rochester do support it. We have a clip, actually. Let's play that
02:11now for people at home. As an employer, it's not good. We're getting hit twice, so we've
02:17now got to pay more national insurance contributions, and the minimum wage has gone up. So we struggle.
02:22We're struggling as it is. So for us to add that additional cost is just madness for us.
02:28We might end up having to make cuts ourselves, and there might be job losses, Aaron. Well,
02:32I think that Gary may have played the wrong clip there, because that is Neil Charlick,
02:38the head of the Gillingham Street Angels, who says minimum wage and national insurance
02:42increases are going to hit him hard. Actually, that's something I want to ask you about,
02:46David, because you chair the local television network. What's this going to mean for your
02:51members of the association? Well, it's going to be a hit. It's something that we all want
03:02to pay journalists more. We are struggling with lack of money. So having an extra tax
03:10in effect employing journalists is not a good thing. So it's not a good budget from that point
03:18of view. But I did want to say something more generally about the budget, which is there's a
03:24sort of broader trend here that the government is increasing the tax take, but this is part of a
03:31long-term trend. If you look at the G7, the sort of group of rich Western nations, the tax burden
03:43has increased for around about 27% in 1965 to about 37% now. And we in the UK are a bit below
03:54that trend, but we will be getting to about the average by the end of the spending round. So it's
04:03a long-term issue. The particular one about employers and national insurance is bad news for
04:12us, but there are pressures on governments that they have to respond to. Clearly, there is a few
04:21things that are good for media, including more funding for the BBC World Service, but there will
04:26be cuts to almost all government departments, including DMCS. What do you think needs to be
04:32done to kind of protect our media institutions going forward? Well, local media is, I think,
04:41really important. We live in an era of fake news. We have 34 different local TV
04:52stations across the country, of which KMTV is one, and we provide the only really local
05:02news service. In an era where we have devolution, where more resources and more decision-making is
05:10going to be taken locally, it's really, really important that we have some kind of accountability
05:18and local TV can provide that accountability. So we are going to be lobbying the government
05:25to try and make sure that we are protected. Obviously, George, cuts are nothing new to
05:30Conservatives, including with things like austerity. Surely this isn't much different
05:36from what a Conservative budget might look like if they were still in power? Well, absolutely not.
05:41I mean, look, the Conservative Party would not have spent £70 billion in the way that this
05:47government has. Before the election, Rishi Sunak, the outgoing leader of the opposition, but then
05:51Prime Minister, was very clear. An average household would have over £2,000 worth of tax
05:56rises if Labour came to power, and I think that's absolutely been proven to be correct. But there's
06:00no income tax rises. There's no VAT increases. Well, that's not completely correct because,
06:04you see, the challenge that we've now got is that this national insurance rise for the
06:09contributions that employers have to make do directly impact employees, and we've seen that
06:14through the OBR, where it's made very clear that actually a majority of this is going to be passed
06:18on to workers through lower levels of wage rises in the coming years, which in turn is going to
06:24mean that by the end of this Parliament, we're going to once again see a Parliament where there
06:28has not been a significant real-terms increase in living standards. And obviously, during the last
06:34Parliament, that was significantly impacted due to the Covid pandemic and the war in Ukraine.
06:39But I'm afraid we're not seeing the rhetoric from the Chancellor of Change and backing the
06:45builders, not the blockers, and growing the economy. We're not seeing any of that reflected
06:49in the OBR's forecast. But surely an extra £1,400 a year will be good for working families. That is
06:55a rise in living standards, isn't it? Well, for those on the lowest wages, absolutely. And I think
07:01that the national insurance contributions are going to also be impacting those lowest paid,
07:08obviously, with the employer contribution actually being reduced from 9,000 down to 5,000, which is
07:13going to mean that employers are also going to have that significant burden, which is also going
07:18to have an impact on businesses that are employing those on the minimum wage. David, this is not your
07:24first budget you've seen. You were an ambassador with the Foreign Office many, many years ago. And
07:29I wanted to ask you, as someone who's kind of been within the government structure, as it were, are
07:33there any surprises for you here, perhaps things that haven't necessarily been reported on or touched
07:38on as much as you think they should be? Well, I think the most striking thing, from my point of
07:48view, was a reminder in the budget document that there has not been a spending review since 2021.
07:55So, that means that all of the departmental budgets are very distorted, that there's never
08:01been a kind of resetting for the last four years. So, in a sense, there's no strategic view at the
08:10moment about what government spending should be. So, probably more important, almost, than the
08:17budget is going to be the spending review that's going to be taking place over the next three or
08:21four months and reporting next April. And that's going to be really resetting what the baseline for
08:28departmental budgets is going to be. And that, I'd say, is the most important thing. And coupled with
08:35that, there's the efficiency saving, which you referred to, of 2%. I think, traditionally,
08:41the Treasury has thought that you can probably squeeze out 3%. So, in a sense, that's not
08:46too alarming. The other thing that I think is really striking is the massive amount that is
08:54being spent on universal credit, which is not to decry the reason why people are having to pay it,
09:01having to receive it, but it's a trend that's sort of increased because of COVID.
09:09More and more people are having long COVID and are going out of work. If we had the same levels
09:16of employment instead of people on universal credit, the country would be a lot richer.
09:23So, in a sense, that ties in with higher health expenditure to try to remedy some of the
09:31problems that people face. George, this kind of sounds like a lot of problems I've been holding
09:35over from the last government. No spending review from 2021 onwards, people living with lower
09:43levels of living. Surely this is something that goes back to your government rather than Labour
09:46here? Well, I think, look, the last parliament was the most challenging parliament we've had,
09:51probably, since the Second World War, whether it be the challenges brought about by the COVID-19
09:57pandemic, which the Conservative government at the time got people through paying people's wages
10:04and also ensuring that we had a world-class COVID-19 response, all the way through to the
10:09challenges brought by the war in Ukraine and the global energy supply crisis that was caused as a
10:14result of that. And there's no doubt that that had a significant impact on living standards over the
10:18last parliament. But I think, actually, when you reflect on all of that and look to the future,
10:23it doesn't seem that the Labour Party have got a clear plan as to how they're going to get Britain
10:28growing again. And as I say, actually, their plans this week have been shown to be actually
10:32reducing growth forecasts rather than increasing the growth that everybody wants to see within the
10:38British economy. So it's not good news for British business, probably. Well, I've just got one last
10:43question for both of you before the break, very quickly. Isn't this a case of short-termism
10:48worrying about this budget? Because this is a budget about growth. That's what Rachel Reeves
10:51keeps on saying. Shouldn't we be looking forward to the next year, the year after, about whether
10:56this budget was a success? David, I'll go to you on this very quickly. Well, the key thing is the
11:02investment. And there's going to be £100 billion, which I think, by any person's standards, is
11:11quite a lot of money spent over the next five years. And a lot depends on how that is going to
11:16be spent, because if it's done in ways that really do help to build the economy, and in terms of
11:25infrastructure and logistics, then maybe we'll get that growth. If it's just frittered away,
11:33then we're in a very bad place. So the crucial decisions are going to be made, as I say, in the
11:40spending review. I mean, it's things like the lower 10 percent. Sorry, David. We've got to go to our ad
11:44break. George, sorry, no time to get your answer on this. See you just after the break with more debate.
14:44So
14:45Well, welcome back to the Kent Politics Show, live here on KMTV, the show that gets Kent
15:14politicians talking. I'm still joined by George Perfect, the Conservative Leader of the Opposition
15:20at Medway Council, and former DiPMAT local TV network chairman and KMTV board member
15:26David Powell. And while we're on the topic of big payouts off the back of the budget,
15:30I'll start broadcasting GB News has been forced to stamp up £100,000 in Ofcom fines over
15:37a programme presented by Rishi Sunak, the former Prime Minister. The People's Forum
15:42aired back earlier this year and saw the Prime Minister directly taking audience questions.
15:48But after complaints, the regulator found it had breached their guidelines. Let's take
15:52a quick look at a clip we have. That's what the election this year is about. That's the
15:57choice. Do we stick with this plan, our plan, that is starting to deliver the change that
16:04you all want and the country deserves? Or do we go back to square one with Keir Starmer
16:10and the Labour Party? Well, the chief executive of GB News has hit back, calling the fine
16:16an attack on free speech, with the broadcaster aiming to use a judicial review to overturn
16:22the decision. So how robust are our Ofcom regulations? And will this decision have a
16:27chilling effect on broadcasters like KMTV? Well, David, I think it makes sense to go
16:33to you first on this one. What do you make of this fine here? Will it have a chilling
16:38effect on other media outlets or was it fair do's? No, it won't have a chilling effect.
16:43I think it's absolutely what Ofcom is there to do. It's a very thin line that's protecting
16:51us. There's so much fake news around. The Ofcom code, which you are bound by and you
16:58probably find quite onerous and tedious, is actually something that's been refined and
17:04makes our press stronger. It means that when people watch an Ofcom regulated service,
17:11they have to obey certain rules. It's quite a long, long, complicated set of rules. Ofcom
17:18very rarely impose fines. And on this occasion, I think there have been 14 breaches that have
17:26been investigated by Ofcom for GB News. It's been 12 breaches, just to clarify. But please
17:33continue. So sorry, yes. And all of these are around due impartiality, which it depends on
17:43who's there. So if you're talking to the prime minister, then you have to have a higher bar
17:48for due impartiality. And going back to your original question, I think it's a message to
17:55all of us at KMTV and other local TV stations that the Ofcom code is important and that it's
18:03important so that viewers can rely on what they see and hear. Well, George, as a Conservative,
18:11what do you make of it? Do you think it's fair that GB News being slapped with such a big fine
18:15for the prime minister presenting his own show? Well, I think, look, I think the role of the
18:21regulator is very clear. It's set out by statute and within legislation. The role of Ofcom,
18:28I think it's their job to ensure that they are implementing their own code of conduct. And
18:33obviously, they feel that they've done that in this case. GB News obviously feel like that is
18:38not the case. And obviously, they're going to be pursuing a legal matter on that. And I think
18:43ultimately, in relation to this specific case, that's for, you know, the courts to decide
18:49and for Ofcom, you know, to give their judgment with the ability for GB News. But George,
18:53this is not the first time a Conservative politician has taken to the air. Jacob Rees-Mogg,
18:59Esher McVeigh, these are people that have had show slots on GB News. Has your party made a
19:05mockery of impartiality? No, I don't think so. I think they're absolutely entitled to be
19:11broadcasting on that channel in the same way that the Foreign Secretary a number of years ago,
19:16David Lammy, was presenting on Global Radio's LBC. So I think we've seen politicians on both
19:23sides presenting. And as long as it's within the rules as set out by Ofcom, I don't think
19:28there's a problem. Well, David, I want to ask you, obviously, you deal with Ofcom on a regular
19:33basis, you probably know the code better than anyone else out there. I was wondering, do you
19:38think Ofcom needs more teeth to tackle infractions or things like this? Do you think there's enough
19:46power over at the regulator? Well, there's quite a lot of legislation going through,
19:55which relates to new platforms. And I think everyone is kind of struggling about what to do
20:02about new platforms and how to stop fake news. I mean, to take the case of local media, for example,
20:14something like 92% of people pay much attention to local news, but about 38% get their local news
20:27from social media, which is, of course, unregulated. So people can get all sorts of stuff
20:33that may or may not be accurate, whereas you have to be accurate because otherwise you'll get your
20:41knuckles wrapped. So I think that Ofcom is struggling with a lot of issues. They probably
20:48have the powers, but they haven't actually articulated those powers yet. And I think
20:53they're working through quite a lot of difficult issues. And I think we'll probably see more to
20:59come over the coming years. Yes, we have discussed those powers in a previous episode of The Kent
21:03Politics Show, which you can catch on our website. But I have one last thing I want to discuss before
21:07we go, because it's big news over the pond in the Atlantic. The US election four days to go from
21:14now and the race is neck and neck between Kamala Harris, the Democratic candidate and the current
21:20vice president and former president Donald J. Trump. With the Labour staffers heading overseas
21:26to help out, are there concerns about British interference and is it overblown? Well, George,
21:33I'll just go to you first on this because Kent is a long way away from America, but this will
21:39have a huge impact on people's lives, depending on who gets into power. Is this something you're
21:45worried about? Well, I think the United States and the United Kingdom are no closer, there are
21:52no closer allies than our two countries, whether it be through the special relationship that we
21:58see or indeed through the ties that we have between our peoples. I think it's really important,
22:04but it's important that the government of the day and politicians work with whoever is in the White
22:09House, because it's important not only for the government itself, but also for the people and
22:15the trade between our two countries. Because David, you were a former diplomat and you know
22:22what's riding on these sorts of elections. What do you think this will mean for people in Kent,
22:27depending on who's getting elected? Well, a huge amount, but the first point I would make is
22:37to agree very much with George that we've got no closer ally and that whatever the US does
22:43is important to us. It's really important that we have a good relationship with whoever is in the
22:49White House. The rule of thumb when I was in the Foreign Office about interfering in US elections
22:59was do not, do not, do not. We should keep really, really clear of that, and we do.
23:07There have been, of course, some sort of examples with both major parties in the past.
23:13There was a celebrated occasion in 2004 when the Guardian tried to have a campaign to
23:21influence people in Ohio, which resulted in a three percent swing away from the Guardian position,
23:28because the US quite rightly didn't want to have the UK interfering. There was an occasion when
23:36John Major, although he denied it, was believed to have allowed the Home Office to look into
23:43Bill Clinton's records, and that soured relationships between Bill Clinton and John Major.
23:52So, you know, personal relationships are really important. You should not interfere. So I think,
23:58you know, anything which even appears to interfere is a really, really bad thing. In terms of what
24:04does it mean for us? Well, you know, if there's a 10 percent tariff on UK goods, that's going to
24:09affect our exports as a country, which is going to affect Kent. If the US is decoupled from Europe
24:18and that leads to increased insecurity in Europe, then that is going to affect us.
24:26And I think you're referring to NATO there, and I really wanted to pick up on that point that you
24:30mentioned about interference, because obviously we've seen Labour staffers heading over to help
24:34on the campaign trail. We've also seen Nigel Farage earlier this year going to help what he
24:38calls his close friend. George, what do you make of this? Do you think that political staffers,
24:45people here in the UK, should be helping out in this other election across the pond?
24:49Well, it's up to individuals. I mean, I think if individuals wish to travel on their own time
24:55in their own personal capacity to do whatever they wish to do in other countries, etc.,
25:01then that's up to them. I think anything involving government or politicians of a
25:07governing party, etc., doing it on that party's time is slightly different. But at the end of
25:13the day, I think there are clear laws in various different countries around this,
25:17and it's up to individuals to make that judgment. David, do you think the bad look for
25:22Zakir Starmer and his party is he's been actively campaigning against the Republican
25:27candidate? This probably isn't going to go down well over the pond, is it?
25:33No, not at all well. There's been a lot of work done over the last few months to try to
25:39build the relationship. And there was, the other month, there was a dinner between
25:46Donald Trump and Keir Starmer at Trump Tower, which was mediated by the British ambassador.
25:52And that was a really positive step, which has overcome quite a lot of the negative
26:01Labour Party rhetoric against Donald Trump. I think there's going to be quite a lot of hard
26:09work needed if Donald Trump wins to reassure him that we remain close allies and close friends
26:15of the US. That's something to keep an eye on because it's only four days away till we know
26:19the results. I'm sure we'll see you both very soon about that. But that really is all we have
26:25time for on the Kent Politics Show this week. Thank you so much to both of my guests for coming in.
26:30And for all of your news and views, go to the Kent Online website, as well as catching up on
26:37the Kent Politics Podcast and Kent Politics Briefing. Both are great listens and reads.
26:43But from me, for now, I'll see you very, very soon.
27:00Bye.