Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Oliver Leader de Saxe, joined by Labour leader of Medway Council Vince Maple and Conservative Thanet District Councillor John Davis.
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00:00Hello and welcome to the first Kemp Politics show of 2025.
00:29Live here on KMTV, the show that, as always, gets Kent's politicians talking.
00:35I'm Oliver Leader of the Saks and we're kicking off the new year with a bang
00:40as Kent's council's debate to start date when devolution hits the county.
00:44Today, two of Kent's council leaders sent letters to government
00:48calling to be put on the priority list, but not everyone is happy.
00:51So what does political map look like?
00:53How will you be represented and who will be Kent's mayor?
00:57To make sense of it all,
00:58I'm joined by Labour leader of Medway Council, Vince Maple,
01:01and Conservative Bannock District Councillor John Davis.
01:05But first, you might be asking yourself, what is devolution?
01:09Well, our local democracy reporter Gabriel Morris has you covered
01:12as he was at County Hall yesterday to explain what's going on.
01:16Another morning in Maidstone, business as usual.
01:19Roads gritted by the county council and litter cleared by the borough.
01:23But this is set to change soon.
01:26Fewer joined up administrations could be taking charge.
01:30Last month, the government told local authorities about the change.
01:34And today, Kent County Council has confirmed they want to be on the priority list.
01:40Supporters say devolution will provide better value to taxpayers.
01:43Don't kill democracy.
01:45Don't kill democracy.
01:46But at a protest this morning, concerns were raised about its speed.
01:51We've got this situation where the white paper was released in mid-December
01:54and we're making a decision in early January to sign up to something
01:57with no clarity on what it actually is.
01:59We've had 25 days to make a decision to sign up to a priority programme.
02:03Devolution plans will see KCC asking Whitehall for permission
02:07to postpone the elections plan this year.
02:09That'll mean the council, as it currently stands,
02:12will remain as it is until devolution is complete.
02:16We have to actually discuss the role of the cancellation of the elections in May.
02:20Even though that would be to the detriment of myself,
02:23who was only just elected just over a month ago.
02:25I would be quite happy to stand again in May because that's how democracy works.
02:30The people should have the right to de-elect someone if they're not doing a good job.
02:34And I would like to think I'm doing a good enough job to be re-elected.
02:37Now, this is County Hall.
02:38It's where KCC councillors sit.
02:41They're the upper tier administration for the county.
02:44But below them, there are 12 lower tier district and borough councils.
02:48Then there's also Medway, which is a unitary authority.
02:52It's a mix of both all under one house.
02:55Now, under devolution plans, it would see all 14 of those local
03:00administrations abolished, replaced by what we think would be three
03:05larger unitary authorities for the whole of Kent and Medway
03:08and a mayor sitting above them.
03:10What the local person will see is it's harder to get in touch with anybody,
03:14harder to get their voice heard, harder to get their community's voice heard.
03:18This is a way of just blanking out the population
03:21because they keep doing things that the powers that be don't like.
03:23Devolution plans were discussed by full council today.
03:26There were concerns raised, but a final decision was made by cabinet
03:31in the afternoon.
03:32You will see the opportunity for us in Kent
03:35to shape much more about what happens on a whole number of big issues.
03:39One good example is transport,
03:44both in terms of road and rail, and that's a new development
03:48to have an ability to join those things up much more.
03:51Also to join up public services.
03:54I think we all want to see that the Kent pound is spent better,
03:58that we get better and more joined up services.
04:01The county council has been around in some form since the end of the 1800s.
04:05Today, a clear signal that the administration will likely be abolished
04:09by the end of the decade.
04:13So obviously, we have Vince and John joining us in the studio.
04:16And Vince, you're sort of the man of the hour at the moment,
04:19because you, alongside Roger, will help go to government
04:22and ask about the mayor you've already written to government today,
04:25as has Roger, about being on the priority list,
04:29which will mean that we could be first to get a mayor in this round of devolution.
04:34And I'm kind of wondering, why have you decided to put Medway and Kent
04:38on this priority list or trying to with the acceptance of government?
04:42Well, I think it's really important to say that this is clearly
04:45the direction of travel of this new government,
04:47to be the country elected back in July.
04:50This is important to our community.
04:52Do we want to be in a situation where there are powers
04:55and resources available from central government
04:57that we could be making the best use of across our 1.9 million people?
05:01Should we be at the front of the queue for that?
05:03I say absolutely yes.
05:05So I'm very pleased to have co-signed that letter with Roger.
05:09We've had a good working relationship, not just the two upper tier authorities,
05:12but actually all 14 councils.
05:15Rick Everett, for example, the leader of Fannock Council,
05:17has been at the heart of that conversation,
05:19actually being the voice for East Kent in some of those conversations.
05:22So this process will continue.
05:24There'll be a lot more conversation on shows like the Kent Politics Show.
05:28And most importantly, there will now be an opportunity
05:30if we are selected to be a priority place for public consultation.
05:35And for me, that's really important.
05:36It's critical for councillors of all political persuasions
05:40to have those conversations, to be making the point clearly,
05:43to say actually why we want to be in there.
05:45But I want to hear now from the residents of Medway and Kent, our region,
05:49to see actually what do they think about morality and ultimately local government reform.
05:53And some people don't actually, well the people who are concerned about not being heard
05:56are some of the councillors we saw in Gabriel's piece, particularly backbench councillors
06:00who don't feel they've nearly got their voices heard.
06:02But obviously today, it didn't really matter what the borough council leaders think,
06:06although you did speak to them extensively before submitting your letter.
06:09It all comes down to you and Roger.
06:11And I was wondering, I know that you are a big fan of devolution, John,
06:15but I'm wondering, do you feel that you've been properly consulted as a backbencher?
06:20Do you think your voice has been heard in the devolution debate
06:23raging over the last couple of weeks?
06:25At this point, I have to say no.
06:28However, whether that would be appropriate, because I think
06:33Vint raised a point and he said this is coming.
06:37And this is coming down the track.
06:39Across the beach, however we choose to look at it.
06:43And I think it's our duty and responsibility, all of us,
06:49to take best advantage of that.
06:52We're in a slightly unusual situation here because I think we...
06:56And this is an example of how politics and local administration should work.
07:01You know, take the rosettes off.
07:02You know, we have the battles at election times and so on.
07:06But this is about delivering for people.
07:08The concern, if I've got one, about lack of information so far
07:14is that it's vital that devolution is bottom up as much as top down.
07:19And some things are being prescribed.
07:22For instance, I believe there's only one mayor for Kent.
07:25There's quite a debate to be had, I believe, on that.
07:28A number of unitaries.
07:30I know Vint agrees with me that four is a much preferable number to three.
07:35And there's a lot of reasons for that.
07:39However, we have to set a direction.
07:42And it is the gift of leaders like Vint and Roger Goff,
07:47who spoke absolutely superbly yesterday when he was talking about
07:51the benefits that this brings.
07:53I do not understand the mentality of those that would try and vex it,
07:58because that's not going to happen anyway.
08:00This is happening.
08:01We have an opportunity to take advantage of, I believe,
08:05quite generous funding boosts and bonuses in order to seize the day.
08:13But I think one of the big concerns is it hasn't been that long.
08:17It was only been a month.
08:19And it's not necessarily representative either.
08:22Obviously, it is you and Roger, as well as many of the borough leaders
08:26and district leaders.
08:28Obviously, you've been speaking to extensive councillors.
08:31But surely we have an understanding in council politics
08:35that it's not necessarily representative of the population.
08:37Is that a concern here?
08:39No, no. So from my perspective, I think actually this has been
08:42a really good example of close working, quick working.
08:45Of course, although the White Paper only came out in the middle of December,
08:49these conversations have been happening actually in some senses
08:52even before last year's general election.
08:54And I think in most councils, certainly let me talk about Medway,
08:57for example, over this last week.
08:59I had a direct meeting with the both of the other opposition group leaders today.
09:04On Monday, we had an all member briefing.
09:06More than 40 councillors were there in an informal setting,
09:10but with a lot of information.
09:11And that's really important.
09:13So and every council will take a different approach to that.
09:15There's no right and wrong.
09:16But actually, for me, it's the next step.
09:18So government will now be consulting with the public of the one point
09:22nine million people of our region.
09:24And of course, they're going to be working with all 14 councils
09:27because, again, government doesn't know how to speak to the people of Thanet
09:30or Medway or any other part of this region.
09:33So they will need our assistance to have those conversations.
09:36And then later in the year, there'll be a second set of conversations
09:39and important consultation on the future of local government.
09:44As John says, he and I have the same view on four unitary authorities.
09:48Others may have other views as well.
09:50Let's let's dive into that for a bit, because obviously
09:53the political map will change probably by 2028.
09:56Will we see most this reorganisation happen?
09:59And the debate is which councils are going to have to merge together,
10:02because that's going to be what's going to happen.
10:03We will lose all 14 of our existing councils.
10:06It's a really important question.
10:08And that brings me into it, because some of us have campaigned
10:11for years for this, which is why it's ironic that
10:16the government that we have brought this in.
10:18And to those who believe what I believe,
10:21this is the solution to an awful lot of malaise.
10:25But how the mergers
10:29between the different districts take place is key to this, because
10:34we've we've done a lot of work in the past on this, by the way.
10:36And I can assure you that from research that we've done and street research,
10:40by far the majority of the public are happy to see a change
10:44and a vast improvement.
10:47However, in terms of.
10:52How the new unitaries are formed,
10:55that's where local knowledge is vital, because, for instance,
10:59we have coastal towns that have a completely different
11:02set of dynamics and seasonality problems to, for example,
11:06to a city or to indeed Maidstone, Canterbury.
11:09So this is a very quickly, because we only have a.
11:13Just before we go to the break,
11:14do you think that the coastal towns should align as opposed to.
11:17I think we should have a crescent for East Kent that runs perhaps
11:20from Faversham round to Folkestone, so that Canterbury and Ashford,
11:24which are rural and landlocked authorities, have got different dynamics.
11:28And then numerically, it would have to be the rest of the county
11:32and Medway would then form that.
11:35But that means that the dynamics in that unitary are common.
11:39Sorry, I had to cut you off.
11:40And Vince, we'll go to you after the break.
11:42We're carrying this on. It's so important.
11:44See you in a few minutes.
14:58Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV,
15:11the show that gets Kent's politicians talking.
15:13Today, we're talking a lot about devolution.
15:16I'm still joined by Labour leader of Medway Council,
15:19Vince Maple and John Davis, a Thanet district councillor who's conservative.
15:23And we heard just for the break, John,
15:25that you kind of envision coastal communities joining together into one wider
15:29unitary and then other unitaries across Kent joining together, more rural perhaps.
15:34And obviously, Vince, you have a different idea because you're thinking more along
15:37health partnership lines, if I believe.
15:39Yeah. So at the moment, one model.
15:41And again, there'll be a lot of conversation about this.
15:43We've got till the autumn to come up with the final plan.
15:46But at the moment, we have four health care partnerships that cover Kent
15:49and they don't perfectly split across the geographical
15:53and numerical kind of population.
15:56But I think that's an interesting starting point as a potential building block.
15:59Of course, we've got the 12 districts and boroughs and Medway as a unitary
16:03as potential building blocks.
16:04So I think what we'll see over the next few months
16:07is a number of popular ideas come forward, different conversations.
16:11I think the point that is well made is actually around the issue
16:14of the number of the councils.
16:15I think that is something which will be pretty critical to this.
16:19I say I advocate for four, not least because we're going to see growth
16:22across our region.
16:24So I think you'll see that happening if you've got three.
16:28You're potentially ending up with some very, very big councils.
16:31But just on unitaries, because this has been said a few times,
16:34I don't want to dispel the myth.
16:36And we heard it from Mike Bulldog.
16:38Look, I'm a very proud council leader.
16:40I represent my community.
16:42I was with residents just last night with everything else going on.
16:45Ultimately, I'm still a ward councillor, and that's really important.
16:48And for me, again, I think in most cases,
16:52people who are ward councillors, whatever the size of their ward,
16:54they will have that interaction with their local residents.
16:58That's what we get involved for.
16:59Again, whatever party we represent or indeed no party,
17:03we're here for the residents.
17:04So I want to absolutely say my experience is nearly 18 years
17:08as a unitary authority councillor.
17:10My residents know where I am.
17:12They absolutely know how to get hold of me.
17:14So this idea that somehow a unitary authority is away from residents
17:18is simply not true.
17:19But look, I do want to wonder, because obviously like Medway
17:21and even if that's another extent, they're quite densely populated areas
17:25compared to some of the more rural local authorities.
17:28I'm wondering in some ways if creating wider unitary authorities,
17:32perhaps of those rural areas, that could be where these issues start to come.
17:36As does this idea, you've talked about three and four.
17:39Could this be the hill that devolution dies on?
17:41Because everyone's going to be fighting or local government reorganisation,
17:44I mean, you'll be fighting over merging which councils together.
17:48Is this going to be where divisions
17:50are going to be starting on this issue?
17:52I think there's a robust debate coming this way.
17:56Again, people have got to get used to the idea that this is the model
17:59that will prevail.
18:01Therefore, it's up to us to get this.
18:03It's a phenomenal opportunity.
18:05It's so exciting if we address it positively.
18:08And there's very real concerns about the timeframes.
18:11Of course, there are.
18:13But that's up to us to make it work.
18:16Let's grasp the nettle by the thorn or by the sting and make it happen.
18:25You know, there's two types of people, losers and winners in life.
18:28Losers let it happen. Winners make it happen.
18:30So let's win.
18:31And I think the other thing I'd want to say at this point,
18:33and I agree with John, these are going to be challenging timescales,
18:37but local government is a robust set of people.
18:40And I want to focus on the people who deliver services.
18:43Let me be really clear.
18:44Across all 14 councils of our region,
18:47hardworking council officers are doing an amazing job for their communities.
18:51This is not about what they are doing.
18:53I'm really proud, of course, of what Medway Council does.
18:56But actually, the other 13 councils as well.
18:59This is not about saying that's not working.
19:01This is about saying, actually, this is a different way of doing local government.
19:04And from our perspective, of course, in Medway,
19:06with our quarter century plus of being a unitary authority,
19:10we're ready to talk to our other council colleagues to say,
19:12this is how it works well.
19:13There's got to be the lessons taken from that because there's been challenges.
19:18But not only that, this is about public engagement.
19:22Let's remember that this is the key thing.
19:24And we're all talking about the dynamics of mergers.
19:28Leading that and the thing that has to come first is the directly elected mayor.
19:32Of course, that's the big issue here.
19:34So we've had a few mic issues.
19:36Hopefully we're going to resolve that in the programme.
19:37But Vince, I was going to ask you, I think it's your mic in particular,
19:41I was going to ask quickly, obviously, the mayor,
19:45you might be considered a bit of a front runner because obviously you lead
19:48a unitary authority, you're quite a prominent Labour figure in Kent.
19:52Are you considering, I know you've probably been asked this non-stop
19:55for the last couple of weeks, but it's an important question.
19:58People will want to know if you are genuinely considering this.
20:01My priority, I mean, obviously, that process will happen in due course.
20:04We don't know when yet.
20:05If we're a priority place, we know it will be next May.
20:08My priority at the moment, though, is to continue to deliver
20:12the best possible services for the people of Medway and to work closely
20:15with obviously KCC and our district and borough colleagues
20:19and the wider population of Kent and Medway to make sure whatever deal
20:22we end up with is the very best for our communities as a whole.
20:25But the thing is, that's not a yes or a no.
20:28You haven't ruled it out.
20:29And I know that you probably won't give me that clear yes, no answer.
20:33I'm kind of wondering why you're being a tad bit cagey about it.
20:37Surely if you were just going to outright rule it out,
20:40you would just say no on the programme right now.
20:42Well, I think I'm very clear that, of course, there are great opportunities
20:45in politics. There'll be lots of elections coming up over the next few years.
20:49There'll be new council leaders for new unitary authorities.
20:52There'll be a new mayor.
20:54I'm someone who loves local government.
20:55I'll be looking carefully and closely at all of those things.
20:58I'll, of course, want to play a part moving forward.
21:00But for me right now, my job is to get the best deal for the people of Kent
21:04and Medway and continue the day job, if you will, which is delivering good
21:08services and ensuring that we've got a balanced book, which, of course,
21:11people will know challenges around Medway's finances.
21:14That's my priority from a local level as well.
21:16I think it's a good note to end this devolution chat on,
21:18because there is other news this week, though it doesn't necessarily feel like it.
21:22Because while we're focused on devolution here in Kent, up in Westminster,
21:26it's been all about the NHS to some extent,
21:30particularly about getting them waitlists down within the NHS.
21:34And the government has a plan.
21:37But will it work?
21:38And are GPs and local doctors happy?
21:41So obviously, we heard on Monday the big speech by Keir Starmer,
21:45probably the first big speech of the year, a bit of a flagship one
21:48for the government this year.
21:49And I'm kind of wondering, what did you both make of what Keir Starmer outlined?
21:54I'll go to you on this one, Joel,
21:55because we heard a lot from Vince just then.
22:00A lot of talk.
22:02I think the problem is, what is the NHS?
22:06And we talk about how to get waiting lists down.
22:08And I've got some real personal experience of this.
22:12I've had various health scares in the last few months
22:14and I've received absolutely incredible service.
22:20It's an emotional experience because the system works.
22:25And this is why I tend to be a little bit on the edge of this.
22:29And anything that will improve and enhance patient outcomes and everything,
22:32I don't think anyone can argue with.
22:35But the system works.
22:37Where it doesn't is down to poor implementation rather than it not happening.
22:43I've been with a consultant for a number of years.
22:47I've been with a consultant this week over a particular condition that I have.
22:53And 24, 36 hours after an in-depth consultation,
22:59I received, before I came here today, a copy of the diagnosis,
23:05the forward plan and everything, and it's just an example.
23:08And that has taken, from being put and referred,
23:14it's taken about three months.
23:16That's the second experience I've had of that.
23:19Now, I'm not saying everything's wonderful.
23:21What I am saying is we have to look and perhaps bring out where it's working
23:26and where it's right.
23:28There was a problem with GPs in a lot of areas, and it probably still exists,
23:33where there seems to be this blocking system,
23:35and that's causing log jams.
23:38There's also, of course, the problem with producing care packages
23:43for people to clear bed blocking.
23:45And I think that is, and again, got experience of dealing with somebody
23:51in that very situation this week.
23:54They're happy to go home, and they probably could cope.
23:58But because of the risk aversion of the system,
24:00they can't be released from where they are.
24:02So I'm wondering then, we'll go to you in a second, Vince,
24:05because obviously you're talking about how it may not be your experience
24:09up and down the country.
24:10Do you think the issue then is rather than a systemic problem in the NHS,
24:13it's much more the lack of, like, it's a bit patchwork,
24:17it's inconsistent across Kent and the Inn.
24:20There's inconsistency between teams and different specialisations.
24:26But what we have to remember, and I think the NHS is this incredible machine
24:30because it was never set up to do what it does.
24:34I'm full of artificial joints and all the rest of it,
24:37and I have the NHS to thank for my very being.
24:41Now, we all have that to a degree, but I am a particular example.
24:45And it's not faultless.
24:49I got caught in a loop once and everything.
24:52But again, as soon as I got out of that loop, the system worked.
24:56And I think instead of blaming and just trying to reinvent the wheel
24:59all the time, what we have to do is manage it better.
25:02And that's where then we have to do away with the politics
25:06that you mentioned earlier.
25:08It's coming back to devolution.
25:10It gives us an opportunity to take more control
25:12over the direction of those services.
25:14Of course, and I'm going to bring Vince in on this one, actually,
25:16because Vince, obviously, we've heard a lot of rhetoric
25:18from the Labour government about the state of the NHS,
25:20that it's broken and needs fixing.
25:22And obviously, we heard here that it's not necessarily broken
25:25in the way that we keep hearing all these flagship speeches,
25:29not in the way that Wes Streeting or Sir Keir Starmer keep mentioning.
25:32Do you agree with what John is saying here?
25:34Do you think that we're perhaps getting a bit too aggressive
25:37in our language around the state of the NHS?
25:40Look, I'd say a couple of things.
25:41It's good to hear John's got good service.
25:43That's really important.
25:44It's not just me.
25:45No, no, no, no.
25:46But nobody else is sat on the sofa with me right now.
25:48So I'm pleased to hear that and hope you're getting the support
25:50that you need.
25:51I think there's a couple of things for this.
25:53The waiting lists were excessive.
25:55And bringing those down will need different ways of working.
25:58And that was some of the stuff that Keir Starmer
26:00and Wes Streeting have been laying out.
26:02I think one of the key issues for our health service,
26:04though, is around that integration with social care.
26:08And again, as an upper-tier authority,
26:10we know only too well that when the system works well
26:14and there's the joined-up kind of total place approach,
26:17that can lead to good outcomes.
26:19We've got some innovative stuff happening here in Medway,
26:22working closely, obviously, as a council with our health provision
26:26on things like the Healthy Living Centre in Chatham,
26:29the James Williams, named after our former director of public health.
26:32So from that perspective, we are taking different approaches.
26:35Well, Vince, I might have to cut you off here
26:37because at the end of the programme,
26:39thank you both for what was a very constructive debate
26:41on both devolution and the NHS.
26:43And for more on the NHS wait times and those in hospital,
26:47stick around for Kentonite. See you soon.
26:59.