The Kent Politics Show - Friday 4th October 2024
Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Oliver Leader de Saxe, joined by Labour MP for Chatham and Aylesford and Chairman of Faversham and Mid Kent's Reform Branch Maxwell Harrison.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to the Kemp politics show live on KNTV.
00:30The show that gets Kent's politicians talking.
00:33I'm Oliver, leader of the Saks.
00:35And this week in Kent, politicians are either celebrating or
00:40commiserating a landmark date for the new Labour government,
00:44with the day marking just over 90 days since the left-wing party
00:48returned to power in a landslide election, with 10 new MPs
00:52breaking down Kent's blue wall.
00:55But three months in, is it trouble in paradise with Canterbury MP
00:59Rosie Duffield leaving Labour of what she says is a culture of
01:03sleaze and nepotism?
01:05Well, to make sense of it all, I'm joined by Tris Osborne, the
01:08Labour MP for Chatham and Aylesford, and Maxwell Harrison,
01:11the new interim chairman of the mid-Kent and Faversham Reform UK
01:15branch. Thank you both for joining me today.
01:18So Tris, I want to start with you here, because obviously you
01:21are one of those new 10 Labour MPs.
01:24Labour came to power three months ago.
01:27What has Labour actually achieved for the people of Kent in that
01:30time? Have they achieved anything at all?
01:32Well, look, 90 days in, people elected a new government for
01:36change, and they have got change.
01:38We've seen the creation of GB Energy, which is going to today
01:41announce carbon storage, investing in renewable technologies
01:45to diversify away from the carbon-intensive sectors of the
01:49economy. We've had a renationalisation of railways to get the
01:52franchises back into ownership, which will see improvements for
01:55costs on our railways.
01:57And we've also seen a government that's been focused on the
01:59priorities, getting our economy back into a stable footing,
02:02re-engaging with NATO allies and the European Union partners to
02:05grow our economy.
02:07And lastly, to get education, to get rid of some of those
02:10ridiculous one-word Ofsted judgments, and supporting our
02:14public services, getting teachers back into the classroom,
02:17stopping NHS strikes.
02:19And lastly, by improving and getting a conversation in the
02:23country about immigration, setting up the border force and
02:28getting people who are illegitimate in this country back to
02:31their countries of origin.
02:32So I think we've done a lot, but it is really early days and
02:35we've got some big, big financial challenges ahead.
02:38Because I wanted to ask you, Matt, obviously, the reform
02:40conference was just a few weeks ago.
02:42Do you think people are happy with the direction?
02:44Obviously, we heard a lot of things that Trist says Labour have
02:47achieved in this time.
02:49Do you think that's a good laundry list to be having at this
02:52point in the cycle?
02:53Well, I think it's very clear that the honeymoon period is
02:56over, you know, net approval ratings now is minus 39% for
02:59Keir Starmer and 66% of the British population are
03:03pessimistic about the future of this country.
03:05So no, I think Labour's start has been pretty abysmal.
03:08I think all the sleaze and scandal that's come out of number
03:1110.
03:12Again, the British public can see very clearly that both the two
03:15main parties are exactly the same.
03:17And I think people are pretty appalled what's happened,
03:19actually.
03:19And we talk about the priorities that are going on.
03:21I actually think what we've seen in the last 90 days has been
03:24pretty, pretty shambles.
03:26Because according to Ipsos, Labour's popularity has fallen
03:29sharply since the election.
03:3145% now have an unfavourable view of Labour.
03:35Trist, if they have been successful, as you say they have,
03:38if Labour achieves everything they wanted to achieve in this
03:42time, if they've made a difference to people's here in
03:45Kent, why is popularity so low compared to the election?
03:50Well, you've just you've hit the nail on the head compared to
03:53the election.
03:54Okay, the election was a high watermark for us.
03:56We won the most seats in decades, winning a record number of
04:01seats in Kent.
04:02And I think the public wanted change.
04:05We've inherited a difficult financial situation that is going
04:08to be very difficult.
04:09Announcements are coming forward.
04:10Some of those decisions are not popular, though we have
04:12justified them.
04:14But I think also some of that change needs to be seen.
04:16And I think at the moment people, they can see the policy
04:19announcements.
04:20They can see that we're trying to make progress on improving
04:23our NHS, on improving schools to give parents better access to
04:26information about the best schools for their kids, to
04:29invest in our public services to ensure that we stop the
04:32strikes.
04:32All of these things have happened.
04:34But we now need a period of delivery.
04:36And that's going to take time.
04:38And there are going to be difficult decisions.
04:39And some groups in society have obviously felt some of the
04:42impacts of those decisions.
04:43So I'm not surprised that, you know, things are we are entering
04:47our period of making those tough calls.
04:49The polls will suffer.
04:50But fundamentally, there is no credible opposition.
04:53The Conservatives are leaderless and motherless.
04:55We saw that at their conference this week.
04:57And Reform don't have sufficient MPs to form a government and
05:00aren't credible on the national stage.
05:02So I think going forward, Labour has to continue with the
05:05direction of travel it is, ensure that our economy grows
05:09and deliver people in public services.
05:11And I think in four years' time, the judgment will be very
05:14different.
05:14You say difficult decisions, but those are unpopular.
05:17The winter fuel allowance impacted hundreds of thousands
05:21of people across the country and here in Kent.
05:24You can't just dismiss that as just some difficult decisions
05:27that are being made.
05:28They have a real impact.
05:29In fact, one Labour MP here in Kent, Rosie Duffield, that's
05:34one of the reasons she left the party last weekend.
05:36You can't dismiss this as kind of like teething issues at the
05:40start of a government.
05:42So, I mean, some of those difficult financial decisions,
05:45of course, we've had to make because of the inheritance of
05:47£22 billion in-year budget deficit.
05:50So, yes, some of those decisions are bad for pensioners.
05:53We acknowledge that those earning less than £218 a week,
05:56there will now be means testing of the winter fuel allowance.
05:59That's a difficult decision that will save £1.2 billion.
06:02We have had to stop the strikes and get people back to work in
06:05our schools, in our nurses and our doctors.
06:08But you're right, Rosie Duffield is a former colleague of mine.
06:10We're going to work very closely on issues like SCND in Kent.
06:15Getting a new commuter route via Ashford with Eurostar.
06:18We're going to do a lot of cross-party work with her.
06:20I'm disappointed she's made that decision, but obviously that's
06:23for her to make that call.
06:25I think having Labour MPs in Kent working together can deliver
06:28more for the county.
06:30Because what do you make of it all?
06:31Obviously, Maxwell, obviously, we have seen a lot of criticism
06:36about the freebie scandal.
06:37We've heard a lot of criticism about politicians.
06:40What do you make of it?
06:41Do you think Rosie Duffield's decision was right?
06:44To leave the party over all of this?
06:46Well, absolutely.
06:46And again, once again, it's very clear that Sir Keir Starmer is
06:50hypocritical in a lot of regards.
06:52But I hate this idea about the inheritance, that Labour have come
06:55in and it's an awful state of affairs.
06:57Between 1997 and 2010, Labour nearly tripled the national debt.
07:02Between 2010 to 2024, the national debt doubled.
07:06So the situation that Labour actually had during their last
07:09tenure in government was actually worse for the economy than the
07:12Conservatives.
07:12In comparison, you tripled the national debt.
07:16And even though we look at what's happened since they got into
07:18number 10, you know, a £22 billion black hole, it's pretty
07:22fictitious.
07:22£11 billion has been committed to international aid for climate
07:26change, £9 billion for the union paymaster.
07:29So it's not a case of difficult decisions.
07:31It's just bad priorities.
07:33And that's why I can see why people like Rosie.
07:34So do you think ending strikes and dealing with the climate
07:36crisis are bad priorities for a government to have?
07:38I think it's bad optics when we talk about spending £11 billion
07:42on international climate change, when constituencies such as my
07:45colleague here, you know, 14,000 people are going to lose their
07:48winter fuel payment, over 14,000 people.
07:50I think that's pretty bad optics.
07:52I think it's pretty indefensible.
07:54So what do you make of it?
07:55I can come back on those economic figures because they're not
07:57credible.
07:57So in 2010, our debt to GDP was 70% to 80%.
08:03It's now 100% debt GDP.
08:06So the Tories have doubled the national debt.
08:08Now you're right in percentage terms, national debt did go up
08:11because of the credit crunch in 2008.
08:12But actually, in number terms, the legacy now means that we are
08:17paying the 70-year high in taxation levels.
08:20Working people are struggling in this country.
08:22That's why they voted for change in May.
08:25But just lastly, on climate change, we can deny and my
08:28colleague here will deny climate change is happening.
08:30That's fine if he doesn't want to make serious decisions.
08:32But we can look around.
08:33Many people can look at their news.
08:35They can see the impacts of that.
08:36More storms, droughts.
08:38We're seeing environmental migrations happening around the
08:42world. The reality is, is that even Margaret Thatcher in the
08:441980s said that this was a challenge that needed to be
08:47overcome. I'm afraid what we've got is zealots on the right who
08:51seem to think we can go back 40 years and pretend this isn't a
08:54problem that's happening all around us.
08:56And that just is not realistic.
08:58It's not in the real world.
08:59OK, as a global community, we all need to come together and
09:03accept that we all have a responsibility to challenge this
09:06crisis.
09:06No one's denying that climate change isn't a real thing.
09:08And most certainly, myself, I want to be a conservationist
09:11when I was younger. But when we are talking about sending
09:14billions of pounds to other countries, when we're not even
09:17green enough ourselves, when constituents like yourselves are
09:19losing money, when we've got a situation where 1.6 million
09:23people will not be able to heat their homes this winter and
09:26potentially 4,000 pensions are going to die.
09:28I think we have to put our priorities with the British
09:30people. That's not backwards looking.
09:32You have to serve your constituents.
09:33That's your number one duty as a member of Parliament.
09:35And when we talk about taking money out of their pockets and
09:37putting it into other places, I think that's pretty
09:39indefensible.
09:40What do you make of that?
09:41Because obviously you did vote in favour of those winter fuel
09:44allowance cuts.
09:45Do you think that was the right decision given the huge
09:49impact that we're hearing about from people here in the
09:52five towns?
09:53And I'm getting regular correspondence on this.
09:54In fact, I was meeting residents this morning over coffee.
09:57A number of people came and spoke to me about this issue.
10:01And I'm going to be clear on it.
10:02If you are earning more than £218,
10:06you will be means tested on the winter fuel payment, just
10:09as working people are means tested, just as other groups are
10:11mean tested in society.
10:13Many, many people who earn less than £218 will be
10:16on pension credit. And we are introducing household support
10:19grants for any on the cliff edge.
10:21And I'm speaking to people that are either side of that cliff
10:24edge at the moment. So, you know, we are giving extra
10:27support for those who need it.
10:28But what we can't have is a subsidy
10:31for very, very wealthy pensioners who don't need that income
10:34when at the same time we've got a £22 billion black hole.
10:37And this isn't an either or with nurses
10:39or doctors who are working very hard.
10:41We have to stop the strikes because that is causing our
10:43waiting list to go up and is an economic is taking an
10:46economic toll on our country.
10:47We wanted to stop the strikes, get our country working
10:50again and offer working people a decent salary so they can
10:53earn for their families.
10:54And this is not an either or.
10:55And the right is trying to make it.
10:57It's about railway workers versus pensioners.
10:59It is a false divide.
11:01I'm sure we will have more
11:03debates about these issues after the break.
11:06But if you are enjoying this debate,
11:09you're watching right here on KNTV and want to hear more
11:12politics news from here in Kent and at Westminster.
11:14You go to the Kent online website and as well
11:17as checking out the Kent politics podcast, as
11:20well as the brand new Kent politics briefing,
11:23a brand new newsletter bringing you all the news and views
11:26straight to your inbox.
11:28I'll be back after the break with more on the Dartford
11:31crossing, the no attempts crossing,
11:34as well as the future of reform in Kent.
14:58Welcome back to the Kent politics show live on
15:13KMTV.
15:14Still joining me is Tris Osborne, the Labour MP for
15:17Chatham and Aylesford and Maxwell Harrison, chairman
15:20of Fathersham and Mere Kent's reform branch.
15:23And now we've been waiting all day and now we finally
15:26know a decision on the future of the nearly nine
15:29billion pound lower Thames crossing has not
15:32been made, despite the fact it breaches a statutory
15:35deadline for the government.
15:37The Department for Transport hadn't until today to decide
15:41whether the infrastructure project designed to ease
15:43congestion in Dartford was going to go ahead.
15:46But at 5pm today, we still had no
15:49news. We spoke to Lauren Sullivan, the MP
15:52for Gravesend, about what she thinks about the
15:54situation.
15:56So low Thames crossing and certainly the residents that
15:59have been contacting me have been very concerned about
16:01the impact of lower Thames crossing on Gravesham.
16:04The delay means that there still might be some time that
16:06we can speak with ministers or whatever to try
16:09and really put across the grave concerns
16:12that many Gravesham residents are having.
16:14The delay was announced today by the DFT.
16:17Do we have any idea of how long this delay might be and
16:19actually why it has been delayed in the first place?
16:22So we understand that the delay is going to be until
16:25Monday, possibly so that it can be
16:28announced in the House. We are on recess at the moment,
16:31but the decision needs to be taken today when they
16:34announce it is hopefully soon.
16:38Well, we understand this decision is not
16:40is not being made because we were in conference recess,
16:43which raises quite an interest in government.
16:46A question for the government and for UTRIS, because
16:49obviously, are the government too scared
16:52or too indecisive to make a decision?
16:54Why are they waiting till after conference season?
16:56It seems a little bit odd.
16:59Well, actually, you could argue it's just following
17:01parliamentary process, which is that you announce these
17:03appropriate decisions in parliament where
17:06big infrastructure judgments are made and so
17:09that MPs can engage on that.
17:11And actually, what we're talking about is possibly
17:13even 24 hours business delay
17:16might be longer. But the decision is imminent.
17:19I think that was something the DFT made very, very clear.
17:22And I know that both sides of this argument are getting
17:25briefings and I'm looking forward to the outcome.
17:27I myself support the idea of a Thames crossing.
17:30I think we've had 14 years of dither on this from
17:33Conservatives. It is turning out to be one of the most
17:35expensive planning processes in the entirety
17:38of Europe. It's becoming immensely frustrating.
17:41And actually, I think what residents need is a steer
17:43clear from a government which is focused on future
17:46infrastructure for our country.
17:47And this is of national importance.
17:49But this is a breach of a statutory deadline they
17:52had until today to get this crossing
17:55approved or discontinued.
17:59Do you not think it kind of sets a bad example when the
18:01Labour government are breaching their legal deadlines
18:03to get stuff done?
18:05I think it's more appropriate that these announcements
18:07are made in the House of Commons.
18:09After all, the House of Commons is the statutory
18:11legal authority in this country.
18:13So I think if they make it in the most appropriate way,
18:16I don't think the public will mind whether it's made
18:18today or next week in the House of Parliament
18:21where MPs are present and can debate this.
18:23So and as you can tell, there are different and
18:25divergent views on this matter.
18:27And I think Parliament is the crucible of democracy
18:30in our country and is the most appropriate place to
18:32debate this. We will have an answer, in my view,
18:34very shortly.
18:35And what do you make of this, Maxwell?
18:37Obviously, it's been 15 years of
18:40waiting. Do you think this is just another
18:43delay after another delay after another delay?
18:46Absolutely. And when we say the sentiment Britain
18:48is broken, this is one of those very good examples.
18:51I don't buy the argument that it's, you know,
18:54of course, Parliament is the crucible of democracy.
18:56But of course, you know, the news yesterday was that
18:58we're giving up the Chagos Islands, which, again,
19:00members of Parliament weren't given the opportunity
19:02to voice their concerns. So I don't think it's very
19:04much parliamentary procedure.
19:06I think it's very much maybe the case that, of course,
19:08today it's been announced that £22 billion has
19:11been announced for carbon capture.
19:13Maybe the environmental sort of optics
19:16of it, you know, and again, announcing this potential
19:18on Monday as well, maybe that led into it.
19:20But again, £9 billion, you know, and when we look
19:23at Norway, for example, who spent less than 300
19:25million of their equivalent of their currency to
19:27build the longest road in the world, it shows you
19:30exactly what is wrong with this country today.
19:32Because obviously it's taken so long to get built,
19:35so long to get done.
19:37And strangely, both Labour and Reform UK say
19:40they want to fast track infrastructure projects.
19:42Is this something that your government and
19:45Reform UK actually agree on?
19:47Is it one of the rare bits of policy that you might
19:49find some common ground?
19:51Well, if that's the case, I'm very happy
19:53to have the endorsement of any party
19:56if they want to speed through infrastructure and
19:58including our changes to the National Planning
20:01Policy Framework, MPPF, which is looking at more
20:03infrastructure investment in communities.
20:06We know that we need more of these types of projects
20:08because it releases capital and it releases business
20:11interest. And I think that hopefully,
20:14this is going to be announced very shortly, I think
20:17the most appropriate place for this announcement
20:18would be Parliament is a piece of national
20:21infrastructure.
20:22Nine billion pounds worth of potential investment
20:25in North Kent is absolutely necessary and
20:28will release jobs and future opportunities for
20:30younger people, especially this month.
20:33So isn't reforms policy is basically Labour's policy
20:35then?
20:35Well, not really entirely.
20:37I mean, again, yes, you're right. We have to fast
20:38track things because as a country, we are just too
20:40slow at getting on with things.
20:42I'm just very surprised that Labour
20:44are in favour of it, considering the
20:46environmental elements, six million tonnes
20:48of carbon emissions going into the atmosphere,
20:50a quarter of five hectares being destroyed of
20:52important Kentish woodland area.
20:55So I'm surprised about those optics, particularly
20:57from Labour. But if we share the same idea that
20:59actually as a nation, we have got to get on with
21:00the job, then I'm happy to have that conversation
21:02with anyone and everyone.
21:03I think what I find quite interesting is you say
21:06that the MPs for the constituency are getting
21:08briefings from government.
21:10But Rosie Duffield has said that part of the
21:12reason she left was a lack of engagement with
21:14backbench MPs.
21:15Do you think there's been enough engagement over
21:17this issue? I mean, Medway's going to be
21:20impacted by the Lower Thames Crossing.
21:21You didn't even know that it had been delayed
21:23until you came to the programme.
21:25Well, I knew a decision was imminent.
21:27I, like most people, was working on the basis
21:30that the statutory guidance would be followed.
21:32But as it is, they've said that it will be
21:34announced in Parliament potentially next week.
21:36So I'm comfortable with that as an MP because I'm
21:38an MP and I think that would be the best and the
21:40most appropriate place to do it.
21:42However, do I think that we're well briefed?
21:45It does depend on the issue.
21:46I think that I am very well briefed.
21:48I get access to information.
21:50The library, the House of Commons library, gives
21:52me information. I can find out more information
21:54regularly by getting in touch with ministers or
21:56others, depending on how an MP approaches
21:59their role. And obviously, if you feel like you
22:01don't have a particular piece of information, you
22:03can always ask.
22:04I know I'm not aware of any bits of information
22:07that I've not been able to get access to.
22:09But everyone works differently.
22:11If it's about engagement, when was the last time
22:13that you spoke to senior Cabinet ministers
22:17as your role as a constituency MP?
22:18When was the last time you spoke to Keir Starmer,
22:20for example, or Angela Rayner?
22:22I've spoken to senior Cabinet ministers last week
22:24at conference. In fact, I sat on roundtables
22:27with a number of them debating how we get more
22:29infrastructure investment into Kent and improving
22:32our schools. So recently, I have been ill
22:35this week, however, so they'll be happy
22:38to know I haven't been in direct contact with
22:40them with a cold.
22:41So, but yes.
22:43I'm glad we haven't infected any of our senior
22:46Government ministers.
22:47I'm glad we got that out of the way.
22:49But we're going to move on to the last part of the
22:51programme now, because from Tom
22:54Tugendhat to controversial comments, the Tory
22:57Party conference has finally wrapped up in
22:59Birmingham, with all four remaining leadership
23:02candidates taking to the stage.
23:04They attempt to take reigns of Her Majesty's
23:06Opposition. But could things be looking a little
23:09more turquoise beneath the blue?
23:11Upstart party Reform UK took more than 20
23:14per cent of the vote in a number of Kent seats
23:16and they'll be hoping to bring some of their
23:18success to KCC elections
23:21next year. Obviously, Maxwell, you
23:23are a new chairman of a reform
23:26branch.
23:28Are you confident? What are you hoping to achieve
23:31next year at KCC?
23:32We're hoping to cause a political earthquake.
23:34And again, what reformers' job is now is to build
23:37the infrastructure in place.
23:38During the general election, myself included, I
23:40had 24 days, 24 days to get on the ground,
23:43get leaflets and go out and at least try and get
23:45votes from the members of the public.
23:47And what our job now is to get the database as
23:49well, similar to what the Liberal Democrats have
23:50got, a fantastic ground campaign.
23:52Replicate that, speak to people, get people
23:55engaged in politics.
23:56And our aim, of course, is absolutely sort of
23:58turn Kent upside down politically next, next
24:01year.
24:01So where are you targeting? Like where in
24:02particular can we expect
24:05your campaigners to be out on the ground?
24:07Well, in fact, we believe we've got a fantastic
24:09chance towards the mainstream part of the
24:12constituency, Sittingbourne and Sheppey again,
24:14a very, very strong Brexit area.
24:16And again, down the south coast.
24:17So these are sort of the areas which, although
24:19we're going to be hitting every single area and
24:21we're targeting every single seat, we
24:24know our strengths and weaknesses as a party.
24:25We know our areas where we do well and we don't.
24:28And that's why we make sure we have the best
24:30candidates possible and the best branches in
24:32place to ensure that people can put their cross
24:34behind a reform which is organised and dedicated.
24:37Because even in your seat, Tris, reform got
24:4024.5% of the vote.
24:42They only had 4,000, less than 4,000
24:44votes than you actually in the election.
24:47Do you view Reform UK as a threat
24:50to the Labour Party going forward?
24:52Well, all parties should never take
24:55incumbency for granted.
24:56And I think all, including Labour, now we're in
24:59government. We have to work triple hard to show
25:01to people that we're delivering on their schools,
25:03their hospitals and their public services and
25:05improving the economy.
25:06So we've got that journey ahead of us.
25:08And of course, Reform will, like other political
25:11parties, will have different positions
25:13to us on some of those issues.
25:14And we will have to robustly challenge those.
25:16I will say UKIP did very well in Kent
25:19in previous election cycles and then subsequently
25:21got annihilated.
25:23So no party should take anything for granted.
25:26Reform are clearly going to be aiming for seats
25:28next year. We will see what the results will be.
25:30But the challenge will be is can they sustain those
25:33votes on the right or will the Conservatives come
25:35back and pinch them in the future?
25:37My worry about Reform is, is they're not here for
25:39the long term. This is just the latest rebrand
25:42on the far right of British politics.
25:44And I'm afraid in 10 years' time, the Tories will
25:46be back and these guys will be history.
25:48You're laughing about that, Maxwell, but obviously
25:50we had, we heard some, lots of red meat being
25:53thrown to party members by Robert Jenrick, by
25:55Kemi Badenoch.
25:57Aren't you just being edged out of politics by
26:00these hard right Conservatives?
26:01I think, I don't think you can say we're being
26:03edged out when the Conservatives are copying us.
26:05You know, every single time we look at the
26:07Conservatives in the last 10 years, they've only
26:09done well when they've actually copied our brand
26:11of politics, whether that was Brexit.
26:12And even now, to have two of the leadership
26:15candidates talk about leaving the ETHR, they're
26:17just copying us.
26:18But the thing is, the Conservative Party is
26:20at the point of annihilation.
26:22It is a broad church with no religion.
26:24That party will not unanimously get behind a
26:27set of policies. It won't get behind one leader.
26:29We've seen that for the last 14 years.
26:31And again, to call reform far right is so
26:33politically ignorant, it's beyond belief.
26:35However, what we are seeing...
26:36Well, we're going to have to leave that there,
26:38I'm afraid, because we have reached the end of
26:40the programme.
26:41What a note to end on.
26:42Well, a great speaker to both of you.
26:44Thank you so much, Tris Osborne, Ian Fairmark,
26:46Chatham & Aylesford and Maxwell Harrison,
26:49the Reform UK chairman for
26:52the Labour Party.
26:53Thank you so much for joining us.
26:54I'm your host, Mr Ken Faversham.
26:55See you next week.