CLNS Media's Taylor Kyles is joined by Dane Brugler, NFL Draft expert of The Athletic, to discuss what the Patriots got right and what they got wrong (so far) from the 2023 and 2024 NFL Drafts. Plus, they look ahead to this year's class and discuss the route New England might go.
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SportsTranscript
00:00I am joined by Robert Griffin, the third James Whitefield.
00:08Yes, Mina Kimes.
00:09All right.
00:10So first play, we're going to look at second into one of the Patriots first offensive plays.
00:17What's going on everyone?
00:18Taylor Kyle's here for CLNS media coming at you with another episode of Pats Daily brought
00:22to you by our good friends and prize picks and game time.
00:25Today we are joined by a very special guest.
00:27I am so excited NFL draft analyst for the athletic Dane Grubler is joining us to talk
00:33about the Patriots draft class in 2024, their draft class for 2023 got some pretty good
00:38players out of there.
00:39A few starters on both sides of the ball, and we're also going to preview some top positions
00:43of need for the Patriots in the upcoming draft and some potential fits that we can look out
00:47for early on.
00:48No one better to dive into this with then you Dane.
00:51So without further ado, brother, thank you so much for being on the show.
00:54How are you doing?
00:55Hey, the pleasure's all mine.
00:57Thanks for having me.
00:58I'm doing well.
00:59We're, uh, I've got four kids and so we're almost to Christmas and so things are busy
01:04here making sure, you know, we, we go see the lights, we go see Santa, we do, we do
01:08all that kind of stuff.
01:11But it's also in the heat of the end of college football, the transition to the draft.
01:15So busy times right now, before we get into it, I'm curious, what's the hot toy on the
01:20market right now?
01:21Is there something that all the kids are asking for or what is it?
01:25That's a good question.
01:26I have six, you know, I have my, my, my son is nine.
01:29My daughter's eight and I have two twins that are three.
01:32And so we have the whole wide range of kind of, you know, the, the video games to the
01:39hoverboard to, you know, all these different things.
01:43So let me, let's just say that the, the, the Christmas lists were long and you know, they're
01:49not going to get everything on that list for sure.
01:52But yeah, no, I don't, I don't know if there is one thing that, you know, I feel like,
01:56yeah, when we were growing up, there was definitely like the hot item each year this year.
02:00I don't know if there is, is that one thing, but it feels like they're, you know, kids
02:05have more access to so many different technologies.
02:07And so some of the things that kids are getting these days, you know, like I, it's just, it's
02:13just kind of crazy, but you know, it's just as technology grows, you know, we have to
02:17kind of grow with it and kids just get introduced to it at a younger and younger age.
02:21It's crazy.
02:22Dude.
02:23You said hoverboard.
02:24And I was like, you mean like from back to the future?
02:25Like what?
02:26A hoverboard?
02:27I was asking for like Spider-Man web shooters in an apartment with absolutely insane.
02:32Like Hulk hand.
02:33If there was a hoverboard, I think I would have asked for that pretty much every year.
02:36Just different colors.
02:37Heck yeah.
02:38Yeah.
02:39Give me a game boy game.
02:40And I was, I was happy and I was good.
02:41That was a good Christmas for me.
02:43So yeah, I hear you.
02:44Simple time, simple time, but all right, we got to get to the football part of this show.
02:48I can talk about Christmas presents all day.
02:51Let's start off with Drake may any conversation with this Patriots team has to start with
02:55him.
02:56Obviously foundational piece, hopefully their franchise quarterback.
03:00He's been really impressive.
03:01There has been a level of growth that's happened for him this season that I didn't really expect.
03:06I figured, you know, Alex Van Pelt has said in the past, the footwork he can figure out.
03:10I didn't think that was a huge deal, but I didn't see the precision, the ability to work
03:14in structure.
03:15No worries.
03:16Problems are so consistently the way we've seen big credit to Van Pelt, but also to him
03:20I remember when I was reading a report on him, you were saying, yeah, me time, take
03:23time for him just to mature 22 years old and it's the NFL.
03:27You're leading a locker room of grown men.
03:29So what's your take on what we've seen from Drake may so far, what did you kind of expect
03:33from his pre-draft profile?
03:35And then what's also surprised you now that we've seen what he could potentially be in
03:38the league?
03:39Yeah.
03:40And I think that was kind of the question mark was what would be the timeline for Drake
03:44to kind of figure things out and show that type of progress.
03:48And through eight starts, I mean, you have to feel optimistic about the growth that he's
03:53shown the athletic instincts, the arm talent, the toughness, and I'm a big believer in the
03:59older brother theory.
04:00You know, when you have three highly accomplished older brothers you know, you're just trying
04:05to keep up with them and that natural competitive toughness that just becomes ingrained in you.
04:10And I think that's something that's really helped Drake as you know, on and off the field,
04:14both in terms of the physical toughness, but also the mental toughness and what it takes
04:17to be an NFL quarterback.
04:18I think going back to the process, like you mentioned, I think, you know, he was overanalyzed
04:23just like all these quarterbacks are, you know, as you go through the ringer of six
04:27months of draft talk.
04:29But people got so caught up in the footwork and some of these other minor issues.
04:34The reckless tendencies that he had on the college film, I think those were fair concerns
04:39and something that we've seen come up, you know, with him in the NFL.
04:43When he forces things, that's when things can get, you know, a little bit off schedule.
04:47You look at his eight interceptions that he's had, five have come on first or second down.
04:52You know, that's what we're talking about, kind of forcing things sometimes, especially
04:55when you get pressured, you have to move your feet and you're trying to create something.
04:59You know, it's a double edged sword where you want, you don't want to eliminate that
05:02from his game.
05:03You want him to have free reign to, if he needs to escape, let him do it, let him go
05:08create something.
05:09But there will be mistakes that come along with that.
05:12Specifically the last three games, you know, watching those tapes, I've been really encouraged
05:16by just the not forcing thing as much as much taking what the defense gives him.
05:22It's much different than I think, you know, you can go back, watch the Titans tape or
05:26the Bears game.
05:27Those were, there were a lot of all or nothing plays in those games.
05:31It felt like where he made some big time throws, big time plays, but there were also some turnover
05:36worthy plays that we were, okay, we just can't have that and expect to win these games.
05:40So I think he's reeled back these last three weeks, some of those reckless decisions and
05:46still some throws that, you know, you, you wish he could have back, but he's shown better
05:50control, better process.
05:52And I think that's the key for any quarterback.
05:54Rookie quarterback is you want to see progress, not perfection, smarts, the arm talent.
06:00Those are the main selling points.
06:01I still don't think he gets enough credit for the athlete that he is.
06:05I mean, it was all over the North Carolina tape and now it's the same thing in New England
06:10where you look at Drake May and he doesn't have nearly the snaps that Josh Allen does
06:16yet they have the same number of forced missed tackles this year.
06:19I think, you know, it's obviously there's a lot of people excited about Drake May going
06:25into the process and then at draft time.
06:27And then especially now I just feel like, you know, he's converted some, maybe some
06:31doubters that he had during the process.
06:34And if I'm a Patriots fan, I'm just feeling optimistic, you know, because I think for
06:37the future, we have a, there's a high percentage chance that we have the quarterback, right.
06:43And that's, that gives you optimism, no matter what the final record is this year, going
06:46into the off season, we feel like we have the quarterback, right.
06:50And that's, there's a lot of teams that wish they had that type of feeling going into the
06:54off season.
06:55I love that you mentioned like taking what the defense has been given him in the way
06:58that he is kind of like turning back a little bit and forcing throws.
07:02You see it towards the end of games and you can understand that you're a rookie.
07:05You understand, I think there's a little bit of a talent deficit.
07:08A couple of his picks have just been him trying to go for it all at the end of those games
07:11and really get a chunk and you can hardly blame him for it.
07:13But that evolution and seeing where like the, he had, you need to have a deep throw in his
07:17last game where the deep ball was one of the strengths of his game and he's running around,
07:22but he's also running more and more and keeping his eyes downfield.
07:25And I remember at UNC just watching him, I'm like, this doesn't look like a guy who's 22,
07:29much less a guy that has only a couple of years of starting experience.
07:32And the way that he recognized coverages were obviously, you know, sometimes rotations
07:36are going to get young quarterbacks, but it felt more like he was reading space and leverage
07:40and less like he's saying, oh, okay, well it's cover four.
07:43And, you know, just like the gears are turning, it felt really natural.
07:46I think you're seeing that, but also learning what can I get away with?
07:49What can I not?
07:50And really taking those lessons like the picks, very few of them have been the same error.
07:55Sometimes it's an accuracy, sometimes it's, you don't see the defender, but I'm not sitting
07:58here saying every week, Oh God, like Drake, just figure this out.
08:01The strip shacks, strip sacks were an issue, but then you look at last week, he gets sacked
08:05four times, great job protecting himself and the ball.
08:08So that's been fantastic.
08:10We could make this the Drake may show if we wanted to, but I do also want to address the
08:14rest of the Patriots draft lap this season because Marcella style is the only other player
08:19outside of Drake may, who's been a regular contributor for this Patriots offense.
08:24Now Caden Wallace gets a bit of a pass.
08:26He's been dealing with an ankle injury, hasn't played in a while.
08:28That is what it is.
08:29So Jalen Polk is someone where you can maybe debate where exactly they took him, but it
08:33seemed pretty unanimous.
08:34This is a guy with great football character, great just football player overall, the hands,
08:39the ability to win in those tough situations and when at each level, he hasn't really done
08:43much for them.
08:44There were a couple promising games early on, but then the hands became an issue.
08:48Now it just feels like he's kind of stuck in his head.
08:50Jayvon Baker flashed early in the summer.
08:53He's kind of falling off really only getting a handful of snaps here and there and then
08:56late in Robinson.
08:57He's trying to put him into the lineup, play left guard for the first time actually.
09:01But honestly, when I'm looking, it feels like his head's kind of spinning.
09:04It looks really raw and you expect that to a degree from rookies.
09:07But as Patriots fans, obviously you're a draft and develop team.
09:10You'd like to see more from those guys.
09:12So what's your take on the rest of the rookie class?
09:15Are there any guys where it really did surprise you that they haven't come along quite yet?
09:19Or there's some guys where you were saying in the pre draft process, hey, it might take
09:22a while, but they've got the tools.
09:24You just got to get it out of them.
09:26Yeah.
09:27And we might be looking at this draft class differently.
09:29If Caden Wallace doesn't get hurt, if he doesn't have that ankle issue and we get a better
09:33look at how he plays as a rookie, we might, I think this class would be looked at a little
09:38bit differently because it's so important that you hit on those top 100 picks.
09:44Obviously if may reaches his full potential, we're going to look back at this draft class
09:47and say, oh, it was a success no matter what else happens.
09:50But you have to hit on these drafts draft picks, especially top 100 picks the day two
09:55picks to put a talented roster around your young quarterback.
10:00So you know, Laden Robinson, he's playing like a fourth rounder where it's up and down.
10:05It's not, I mean, I think they're doing the right thing by playing him.
10:08You know, you have to see what you have.
10:10So going into the off season, you have a better idea of, okay, you know what?
10:14We think that Robinson can be a guy for us, at least compete for a starting job going
10:19into next year's training camp, or if he struggles that maybe you don't have that
10:23type of confidence.
10:24But I think, yeah, the lack of production from the rookie receivers, that's going to
10:29be the main talking point here with this draft class.
10:33It's discouraging, no doubt.
10:34I think Javon Baker was always a receiver who I had a tough time getting on board with.
10:39Twitter kept telling me he was a second round pick, you know, last spring.
10:43And I, I couldn't find a single NFL team that thought he would go before day three.
10:49And several teams had him off the board just because the talent was there, but his game
10:54is, there's so many inefficiencies in his game that you don't always see the talent.
10:59So if NFL coaches can't trust you, you're not going to see the field and hopefully a
11:05full year in that Patriots organization.
11:08He comes into the off season and the next year, just with a better understanding of
11:14what it takes to be a pro and hopefully he can break through.
11:16But obviously, yes, the main frustration has been Jalen Polk.
11:20And the fact that they passed on Ladd McConkie makes it worse.
11:24Obviously they were looking for an outside receiver.
11:27McConkie's an inside receiver, Polk was probably their best available left on the board at
11:31that point.
11:32But we saw so many receivers go in the first 35 picks that it just, it felt like a reach
11:38to take Polk that early.
11:40I mean, I thought it was about a full round too early.
11:42He was my number 75 player in that draft.
11:45So I mean, you'll love the toughness, like you said, the character solid athlete for
11:49that size.
11:50I think he catches the ball well away from his body, but he struggled to separate on
11:56the Washington film and he wasn't great finishing catches in traffic.
12:00And so far, that's kind of been the story with Polk in the NFL where he's not creating
12:04that separation.
12:06When he does get the targets, he's not consistently completing those catches when there's a defender
12:12right there in his hip pocket.
12:13So I understand the frustration from fans.
12:17I don't think we've seen him play his best ball yet.
12:19He should continue to get better just because the bar has been set so low.
12:24But it did feel like a reach and they forced this pick to be a receiver.
12:29And obviously it hasn't worked out to this point yet.
12:32So receiver is going to be such a major need this offseason as they go and kind of re-examine
12:39everything.
12:40You're not going to give up on the player, but at the same time, it's not going to stop
12:43you from investing in wide receivers, either free agency or early in next year's draft
12:48based on what Polk has put on the field so far this year.
12:52I agree with the Polk pick and then also with the Caden Wallace pick.
12:54I did like Polk.
12:56I think I was so excited.
12:57I maybe didn't want to listen as much to the odds probably a little bit early because
13:00like you mentioned, I tried to wrap my head around lad, but it was just, you know, DeMario
13:05Douglas is going to play.
13:06You can't really have two guys that size.
13:08That's just a tough way to live in the NFL unless you have a guy who can scheme around
13:11it.
13:12Van Pelt's done well, but he's not a Sean McVay where he really understands how to maximize
13:15his talent and put guys in those positions.
13:18So I'm curious, do you think that there is a lesson that Elliot Wolfe and his staff need
13:22to learn from the last draft class?
13:24Like you mentioned, Polk was kind of a reach.
13:26Maybe Caden Wallace as well, where again, it's a situation where you could argue if
13:29they like his tools, maybe they can move him to left like they said the plan was, but there
13:33were other guys that they maybe could have gotten, but that were younger.
13:36And I think they valued his experience, but did it feel like they did maybe force those
13:39picks and would you have a different set of mind if you were Wolfe and his staff were
13:43the strap?
13:44Yeah.
13:45And I'd be interested to see what their draft board looked like at receiver.
13:49I mean, what kind of gap did they have between, you know, the guys that were taken late first
13:55round and Polk at that point, like, was there a huge gap?
14:00Did they have them all kind of clustered together?
14:03I just be interested to see just kind of how they felt about Polk specifically, how we
14:08compare it to a Brian Thomas, to Xavier Leguette, to all these other receivers that went in
14:15that top 35 mix and there's what, nine of them.
14:17So you know, it's easy.
14:20The easiest version of Monday morning quarterback is looking back in the draft with hindsight.
14:26But it did feel like, you know, both of those picks on day two felt like reaches in the
14:30moment and you know, so far that's just, it's played out the way it has.
14:36But you know, it, like we said before, you have to hit on these day two picks and going
14:41back, you know, I, it just, it both felt like reaches and whether it was because they felt
14:46like they needed to address those two positions specifically wide receiver and offensive
14:50tackle.
14:51You know, I, I get thrown resources at two premium positions, but if you're just, if
14:58you're not convinced of the right players, then you know, you're wasting draft capital.
15:02So in hindsight, I think probably making different draft picks at that point, but you know, it's
15:07easy to say at this, you know, when it's all said and done easy to go back in hindsight
15:11and say that.
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16:23And just to close this out, Jalen Polk, the fact that he has been so unproductive, it's
16:27kind of historic where if he ended up turning it around, he would be one of the very rare
16:31cases.
16:32So I'm curious, you've seen this kind of thing happen a ton.
16:35The guys who maybe do struggle and continue to struggle or the guys who struggle and then
16:38maybe figure it out.
16:40Where do you project?
16:41And again, it is early.
16:42I'm not holding you to this, but where do you think Polk's career could go and what
16:45does he look like if he does hit a ceiling?
16:47Yeah.
16:48I mean, like he's, he's still, still very young and he put enough good ball on tape
16:53at in college that you believe he can break out of this.
16:57You know, some guys, it takes time when you're making this transition to the NFL and you
17:02know, you're seeing a lot more press coverage for the first time in your life.
17:06You know, you're just asked to, you know, even just the terminology of the playbook
17:09is some guys, it takes a year to, to get that down.
17:14You know, just all, all the different ads to, you know, it's a lot of one word terminology.
17:19It's a lot of alerts.
17:20It's a lot like it just, it takes a lot to fully understand it, be comfortable with it.
17:25So you can go out and play a lot of rookies.
17:28They're just, they're doing too much thinking and not reacting.
17:31And with receiver, it's such a timing based position.
17:35That's usually why we see a lot of receivers, not to this level, but we see a lot of receivers,
17:42you know, not have maybe the year we expect them to as rookies because it takes a lot.
17:47So by no means should you just give up on this player, but at the same time, it is so
17:52imperative that you get the receiver, right?
17:55That you have to go into the off season thinking we're going to do whatever it takes, the upgrade.
18:00And if that means that, you know, we're investing a first round pick, if we're investing big
18:04money in free agency, obviously you're not going to let the hope that Polk turns into
18:09something stop you from doing that.
18:11But no, I do think that he can turn this around and at least compete for a starting job next
18:17year.
18:18But you know, it's, it's going to take a lot of work on his end to make that happen.
18:22Absolutely.
18:23And you know, details are important in any offensive system, but in the West coast specifically
18:26where Alex Van Pelt has said some version of pretty much everything you hit on.
18:30So, you know, it's kind of nice to hear an echo a little bit because like, for example,
18:34the Mario Douglas, we'll touch on him.
18:35There's a play where he and Drake may aren't on the same page because he ran a three-step
18:39slant instead of a five-step slant, small things like that, that completely throw off
18:43a play.
18:44And he's also said for Jayvon Baker, when everyone asks, it's like, why aren't we seeing
18:47Jayvon?
18:48He's got all the talent.
18:49He said, yeah, he can separate, got great hands, but you need to have, like you said,
18:53the coach's trust where we know you're going to line up in the same place.
18:56We know you're going to do your assignment the way it's drawn up.
18:58And you know, sometimes there's been instances where Jayvon was supposed to block and he
19:02ran around.
19:03So it is just sometimes, like you said, you're just thinking and there's a lot going on.
19:06So sometimes you do have to give these guys just a year to kind of understand what life's
19:10like in the NFL, not have to worry about just understanding the playbook and actually be
19:14able to play.
19:15But now we will move on to the 2023 Patriots draft files.
19:20Got some starters out of that one.
19:21Christian Gonzalez picked up right where he left off after an impressive rookie year has
19:25been dominant lockdown covering the opponent's best receivers pretty much every single week.
19:31Keon White turning into one of the most disruptive interior rushes in the NFL.
19:34And then a wide receiver, Keyshawn Booty, very quiet his rookie year.
19:37But another guy who kind of had things click for him in his sophomore season.
19:41Now he's a star next receiver for the Patriots, one of the more reliable guys.
19:44DeMario Douglas has pretty much been a starter since training camp of last year.
19:48He started going off with the group of Hunter Henry and everybody and we were like, yeah,
19:51no, this kid's different.
19:52They see him very, very differently than some of these other young guys.
19:56But what do you think of the Patriots sophomore class?
19:59Anybody that surprised you, anybody that lived up to exactly what you thought?
20:02What do you think?
20:04So is this the part of the convo where I can just gush on Christian Gonzalez?
20:07Is it?
20:08If you want to, the floor is yours, my friend.
20:11I think the NFL gave Bill Belichick a lifetime achievement gift when they
20:15allowed Gonzalez to fall all the way to pick 17 in that draft.
20:19I mean, I remember going back to the summer of 2022.
20:21That's kind of when I first dive in to that next year's draft class.
20:25And I had a scout tell me, hey,
20:26check out this Oregon corner just transferred over from Colorado.
20:30And I remember it was clear from the first tape that this was a dude.
20:33This guy is different.
20:34And I called my shot with him early in my preseason top 50 that year.
20:38I had him in the top ten and he finished as my number five overall player
20:43in that draft.
20:44So to get him at 17 was strange, but also awesome for New England.
20:48And similar to, we've been talking about, like Drake May,
20:52it's not been perfect, but just seeing the optimism around him.
20:58Because the Texans tape, that stands out as one of those up and
21:01down performances where it's not always perfect.
21:04But again, you have to be encouraged by the play.
21:08He's only allowed two catches of 20 plus yards this year.
21:11He's not attracting a lot of flags.
21:13He's always had the athleticism.
21:15And now it's really starting to translate to NFL coverage.
21:19So I mean, I think Gonzalez is right on par with where I projected him as
21:23a pro bowl level talent, a guy that should be one of your best players on defense.
21:29And I think he's on his way to doing that.
21:31I mean, you mentioned Keon White.
21:32I mean, he's exceeded what I thought.
21:35I mean, I give him a lot of credit.
21:36He was my number.
21:38He's a good example of I was right about him on draft day because he was my number
21:4147 overall player that year, and he was drafted 46th.
21:45But if we did a redraft, he's not making it to pick 47.
21:49I don't think he makes it to that pick in the second round.
21:52Going back to his college tape, you love the motor, height, weight, speed, freak.
21:57He could anchor versus the run.
21:58So plenty of reasons to be optimistic about that transition.
22:02But in terms of developing his craft, becoming a more nuanced pass rusher,
22:06that was the question mark.
22:07And it's probably what is keeping him from just really becoming a difference
22:11maker for the Patriots.
22:12But he has proven to be a very good starter and
22:15someone the Pats can build around.
22:16And you mentioned Mario Douglas.
22:18He's definitely been what I think was expected as just this
22:24undersized slot presence, a lot of catches in the quick game,
22:29finds those open zones, a lot of in front of the sticks type of targets.
22:33But he's been the Patriots' best chance at
22:36finding yards after the catch in this offense.
22:39And size was always gonna be the issue with him, 5'8", 180 pounds.
22:44But for a guy with smaller hands, he doesn't have a lot of drops.
22:47And that was true at Liberty.
22:48Now it's true in the NFL.
22:51The number one selling point with him is just the explosive urgency
22:55that he plays with all the time.
22:57And sometimes that'll lead to mistakes, kind of like you referenced.
23:01But I see a guy with Douglas who probably never gonna be a pro bowler, but
23:06he's gonna outplay where he was drafted.
23:10So yeah, he's been a really good player.
23:11I really like that draft class in the moment.
23:14And then also, in hindsight, at the city, so I expected.
23:18I'll take the L on that one cuz I had an early fifth round grade on him.
23:22So I wasn't sky high on him.
23:25But I was optimistic because you see the movement skills that for
23:28a 325 pounder, he had experienced a tackle and guard.
23:32Just felt like the foundational traits were there that you could develop the rest.
23:36And I know he's been banged up and that's a key factor.
23:38But he hasn't played well when he's had his chances.
23:42It's just so rough watching that offensive line and it hurts the eyes.
23:46And I know I'm not saying anything that the Pats fans don't already know.
23:50Yeah, no, it's been an adventure.
23:52You get a lot of guys on the roster that, if we're being very honest,
23:54are replacement level guys.
23:55And with city, like you said, you see the traits where when everything lands and
24:00like his strike hits and everything, you're saying, okay,
24:02this is the guy that was bullying defensive lineman last year with Mike and
24:06But in the strike system with Scott Peters,
24:08I think it's why they like more experienced players.
24:10Where cities played a lot of football, but it was at a different level.
24:13And the coaching staff has called him inexperienced.
24:16And you're thinking, well, he's played a lot of ball.
24:17But not often has he been asked to play with the level of detail that he is now.
24:22And sometimes he'll throw that independent hand.
24:24Last year it was two every time and he's working it.
24:27But then guys are still kind of predicting getting under him.
24:29So you hope things click for him.
24:30He'll still be under contract for a couple more years.
24:32So still solid depth there.
24:34But like you said, with the Mario Douglas, that explosiveness and
24:37man to man coverage is just really his calling card.
24:40That's what you're gonna get out of him consistently.
24:42I'd like to see more downfield stuff.
24:43I feel like he flashed that with Mac Jones and he just couldn't connect with it.
24:47But now, like you mentioned,
24:48especially with the offensive line the way it is.
24:50A lot of the Patriots offense really has been more inside that quick game.
24:54But we're gonna close out the look behind.
24:56We're gonna start looking ahead into the 2025 draft class.
25:00The Patriots, they got quarterback figured out.
25:01Fantastic.
25:02But now, just have to worry about every other premium position and then some other.
25:07But we're just gonna focus on the big ones.
25:09Wide receiver, left tackle, and pass rusher.
25:12I'm even gonna say flexible.
25:13It can be edge, it can be interior.
25:15Pass rush is pass rush.
25:16So first off, what are your thoughts on each of those positions in terms of
25:20the kind of players we're gonna get in this class, where the strengths are maybe?
25:24And then after that,
25:25we'll go into some players you think would be good fits at any round for the Patriots.
25:29Yeah, unfortunately for the Patriots, this isn't last year in terms of
25:34the left tackle talent or just the offensive tackle talent in general.
25:39We saw six tackles go in the top 20 last April.
25:42This year, we're still gonna see tackles go just because every team needs them.
25:47And it's a position that will get bumped up and teams will reach on those guys.
25:54Just because you'll be left without a chair if you don't take them early.
25:59But there's a pretty big drop off in terms of quality depth from this group
26:04compared to last year's group.
26:06But like I said, we'll still see them go early.
26:09Wide receiver, last year was historic with three in the top nine and
26:13then 10 in the first 37.
26:17We're not gonna see that this year, but
26:19there's still some good receiver talent, just not as many of them.
26:23So receiver's an okay position.
26:26I wouldn't call it strong.
26:27I wouldn't call it weak.
26:28It's just kind of, it's solid.
26:30There will be options, round one, round two, round three.
26:33But the depth isn't the same as we've seen in past years.
26:37Pass rusher, it's one of the strengths, I would say,
26:41in terms of defensive line, both on the edge, on the interior.
26:44It's a really good group.
26:46Maybe not as proven as some other past years, but the talent is there.
26:51And so maybe a little more risk involved with this year's defensive line group.
26:56But the talent, I think, has teamed excited.
26:59And even talking about corner as well, corner's usually a strong group,
27:04just because there's so many of these guys.
27:06This year, not as much.
27:08I'm pretty disappointed in the corner group based on what we've seen so far.
27:12Only three, maybe four, you consider taking in the top 30, 40 picks.
27:18It's more of an okay group when in the past few years,
27:21especially it's been a strong group.
27:23When you mention the defensive guys,
27:25that sounds like it's right in the Patriots' ballpark.
27:27Cuz when it comes to pass rusher, really,
27:29I feel like they need a guy who can come in and give them some juice.
27:31Maybe develop into a well-rounded player, because you got Keon White,
27:34you got Amperey Jennings.
27:35You're not trying to cut into their staffs.
27:37But on those third downs, you'd really like some guys on the edge.
27:39Or even on the interior that scare you a little more.
27:41Obviously, Farmore plays into that, but he's kind of on the men.
27:44And then corner, you got Gonzo, you got Marcus Jones.
27:47Some young guys in Isaiah Bolden and Alex Sawson that you like, and
27:50you think maybe they can grow into something.
27:52We'll see how they close out the season.
27:53But you'd also like a little more depth with Jonathan Jones.
27:56You don't know if he's gonna come back.
27:57But even if he does,
27:58we're already seeing he's kind of losing a step as reliable as he is still.
28:01Let's talk about game time.
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29:14What time is it guys?
29:15But I wanna dive in first for potential fits at left tackle.
29:19Because you actually released your first mock draft today,
29:23had Will Campbell, who you listed as a left tackle slash guard,
29:27going to the Patriots with their current slotted pick.
29:29So first off, let's get into the Will Campbell discussion.
29:32Because you've heard the biggest concern is the arm length.
29:35I know Dante Skarniecki always said that arm length is overrated, but
29:38you really don't want it less than 33 inches even still.
29:41I believe Campbell is right under that.
29:43But even still, he is arguably and really any opinion that I've seen that I respect.
29:49He is the best offensive lineman in this class.
29:51So why did you have the Patriots taking him?
29:53And how much are you concerned about whether he can play left guard or
29:55whether at some point he's gonna have to slide inside?
29:59Yeah, I hit send on that tweet this morning with a mock and
30:02then closed out Twitter and started to care about my mental health.
30:07Seasoned that move right there.
30:09Yeah, so I apologize if I did not get to your questions.
30:12If you hit me up on Twitter, but Will Campbell, yeah, he has his warts.
30:17He doesn't have ideal arm length.
30:19He's gonna be right around 33.
30:20It might be 32 and three quarters, 32 and seven eighths, right around 33.
30:25And so there are times when some rushers can break him down, wrap his shoulder.
30:31But I'm more encouraged by the positives that he offers instead of getting hung up
30:35on maybe a fraction of an inch that he's missing with his arm length.
30:40He's been a starting left tackle in the SEC the last three years and
30:43he's still just 20 years old.
30:45He's given up one sack since his freshman year.
30:47I love how balanced he stays through engagement.
30:50His hands will control rushers.
30:52He sustains in the run game.
30:53He's fluid throughout his body so he can strain and finish.
30:58Teams are kind of split about where he should play in the NFL.
31:02Is he a tackle?
31:03Is he a guard?
31:04Should he bump inside?
31:05Look, regardless, Campbell is, in my opinion,
31:08the favorite to be the first offensive lineman drafted.
31:11And so we'll see kind of where the Patriots fall with.
31:17Do they view him as a tackle?
31:18Do they view him as a guard?
31:20Time will tell on that.
31:22But for this first mock draft, I gave him the best offensive lineman on the board.
31:26And free agency can obviously change things.
31:29Time will tell on that.
31:30But I do wanna mention too, the wild card of this tackle class is gonna be
31:36Josh Simmons, the left tackle from Ohio State, who was trending to be the OT1 in
31:43this class back in October when he suffered a non-contact knee injury against Oregon.
31:49Needed surgery, he's been out, but he did declare for
31:52the draft, he's gonna be part of this class.
31:55He has the talent to go early, but that knee injury is a question mark right now.
32:00So we won't know really too much until the combine comes,
32:04when we just have a better idea of where teams view Simmons.
32:09Will they still look at him as a top 20 guy?
32:11Will he fall out of the first round?
32:13Is he someone worth rolling the dice on in the second round,
32:16if there are some question marks?
32:18So Josh Simmons is kind of the wild card of this tackle class.
32:22Yeah, I know that Drew Rose now said he's ahead of schedule and
32:25that he's still gonna be a first round pick.
32:26But of course, the agent's gonna stand up for you.
32:28Gotta love Drew.
32:29Exactly, you gotta stand up for your guy, but at the same time,
32:32a left tackle with a knee injury, that is very scary.
32:34Hey, they take Will Campbell, Josh Simmons slips, and
32:37they wanna double dip at offensive line.
32:39I will not be mad.
32:40And with Will Campbell, like you mentioned,
32:42you can talk about the arm length and all that.
32:44And I understand the character and all those things.
32:46The player's still gotta be able to function on the field, and
32:49I don't think that's a question.
32:50But when you read about the amount of respect that Campbell has in that LSU
32:54program, where he got the number seven and what that means to their program.
32:58Being a captain, again, at the age of 20 years old,
33:01being as young as he is.
33:02If your first round picks in your LA Wolfen back to back years are Drake May and
33:06Will Campbell, getting two young guys with leadership potential who can go into
33:09those rooms and really take some command probably early on just by
33:13walking the walk and being active and dominant on the field.
33:16I think you're doing pretty well.
33:18It's tough for me whether or not I would like them to go there quite that early.
33:21But at the same time, if you're getting a great offensive lineman,
33:24I wanna be the Ravens, I wanna be the Eagles.
33:28I wanna be these teams that have these just stud linemen that can dominate
33:31the game and once you really need to just run when everybody knows you're gonna run,
33:35they can do that and they can protect their franchise quarterbacks.
33:37But-
33:38Look at the Steelers, what they did last offseason.
33:40They invested in the offensive line in a big way.
33:44They went offensive line first round, offensive line second round.
33:47They went offensive line in the first round the year before.
33:49I mean, they threw a lot of resources at it, and
33:52that has helped them become a more consistent unit up front.
33:56And obviously, it's paying dividends with the win loss record.
33:58So that's the attitude the Patriots should take into this offseason.
34:02Throw as many resources that you can on the offensive line.
34:06And then also, receiver who I'm sure we'll talk about next.
34:11We can talk about it right now.
34:13I like that philosophy.
34:14I'm trenches all the way.
34:15But you do have people out there who say, you know what?
34:18Maybe you want a receiver because an offensive lineman is great, but
34:20they can't score points and
34:22a receiver who can win quickly does make a difference for an offense.
34:24So who are some receivers that you think could fit?
34:27Because I know Ted McMillan is at the top of everyone's boards, and
34:30I want to hear your thoughts on him.
34:31But also some other guys that maybe they can get in the second round,
34:33maybe third round.
34:34One of my guys, Pat Bryant, I'm just in love with right now.
34:37Curious your thoughts on him as well, but fire away.
34:40What do you think about these receivers?
34:41Probably more the X types,
34:43because that's where the Patriots have just had a void for so long.
34:46Yeah, Ted McMillan, man, he's so much fun, 6'4 and a half, 212 pounds.
34:51He's 40 times not gonna blow anybody away.
34:54The routes are good, not great.
34:56But where T-Max shines is at the catch point.
34:59He catches everything, and he catches it away from his body with his hands.
35:02He has this Gumby-ish body flexibility.
35:05So he's making these crazy adjustments.
35:07He high points with ease.
35:09Very similar to T Higgins, who as a name brought up quite a bit
35:12as a possible free agent target for this team.
35:16But he has the ball winning instincts that you want to pair with Drake May.
35:24So if they get T Higgins, great.
35:26If they went after T-Max, great.
35:27I think it's kind of similar with a guy that has size,
35:31and you kind of throw it in their zip code,
35:33and there's a good chance they come down with it.
35:35So yeah, if they went T-Max in the first round, I would not blink.
35:39I think it would make a ton of sense.
35:41If they do wait until day two, like I said,
35:44this isn't as deep of a wide receiver class,
35:46but there is definitely some Naomi.
35:49Emeka Ibuka from Ohio State could be in that second round mix.
35:52Nothing great about his skill set, but he is just good across the board.
35:56Route runner size, speed, catching the football, it's all above average.
36:01And so you're getting a really reliable receiver.
36:04If he falls out of the first round, he would be a nice target early second.
36:08I'm a fan of Jaden Higgins from Iowa State.
36:11Iowa State, they have like three guys that are going to go top 100 this year.
36:15Two of them are receivers with Noel and then Jaden Higgins.
36:20Higgins has the size.
36:22He's a former basketball player, really good to catch point.
36:25And every year he gets better and better with the details as a receiver in terms
36:29of figuring out the routes, the steps, how to set up corners.
36:33He's getting better and better.
36:34So I don't think he's gonna step in from day one and be a true playmaker.
36:39But when we look back at this draft class two, three years from now,
36:43there's a good chance Higgins looks like one of the better pass catchers
36:47from this class.
36:48So yeah, I think this is a wide receiver group where you don't have to take
36:52him early, there will be options on day two, but the depth is just more okay.
36:57And you mentioned Brian, one of those depth pieces, good player from Illinois.
37:03I do wonder what he's gonna run.
37:05Is he gonna be a 4-5-3 guy?
37:09Will he get into the 4-4s?
37:10I don't think the speed is necessarily what separates him.
37:13But man, he just goes out and makes plays.
37:15And that's helped him ascend from a borderline draft pick coming into
37:19the year to now all of a sudden we're talking about him and maybe a mid-rounder.
37:23And I do think, just kind of going back to the overall draft strategy,
37:29when you draft top five, top ten, where the Patriots will be drafting,
37:33need matters, but it shouldn't be the driving force.
37:37It shouldn't be, there's just too much attrition in NFL ball.
37:40You wanna get a difference maker.
37:42This isn't Madden where you're just trying to fill out your roster.
37:45The pick should be who impacts your roster the most over the next five years.
37:49And so, yeah, it could be offensive line, could be wide receiver.
37:52Pass rusher is definitely gonna be in that,
37:54especially if they can get an Abdul Carter.
37:56You add him to that mix, that pass rusher, 6'3", 250, freak athlete.
38:00Still developing the pass rush nuance, how to set up blockers, but
38:05the burst off the ball, the power in his hands, the quality finish.
38:09I mean, I think that makes as much sense as any of these guys we've talked about
38:13if the Patriots end up with the top six pick.
38:16You're making my transition so easy,
38:18cuz that is exactly where I was gonna go with this.
38:20Because I think if you are saying we are using this first round pick to help
38:24Drake May, and that is your goal, and that is totally fair.
38:27I think Will Campbell and Ted make a lot of sense.
38:29But if you're saying I want the best player available with this top five pick,
38:33I've been saying, you know what?
38:35Hopefully in the offseason, you can get your Tee Higgins,
38:37you can get your Trey Smith, maybe a tackle or two.
38:39So you can just grab that guy, and Abdul Carter's at the top of that list where
38:43they haven't had that edge rusher, they had Matthew Judon.
38:45But even still, the level of juice that you get from an Abdul Carter is something
38:49they haven't had on this team in a very, very long time.
38:52I think maybe Chandler Jones were talking.
38:54So give us a little more on Abdul Carter,
38:56what you think is a potential fit for them, especially given his history,
38:59kind of like a Micah Parsons, where he's new to the defensive line, but
39:02he's got some versatility.
39:03And maybe some other guys where if they say, okay, round one is Drake May,
39:07maybe we do just wait and
39:08get that pure pass rusher who maybe can be more down the road.
39:12Yeah, Jalen Carter from Georgia, Mikel Williams from Georgia.
39:15I mean, there will be options if they wanna go that route.
39:18I do like Carter the most of this group, he's the most versatile.
39:22You can line him up all over the place, you can drop him in space.
39:25But you just want him continually just going after the quarterback,
39:29using that freaky burst.
39:31And there is progress that he has shown throughout the year at this new position.
39:35So I think you have optimism that he'll continue to get better.
39:39But you bet on athletes at the end of the day.
39:41And there's not a lot of Abdul Carter's just walking around this earth who have
39:45that size, that power, and that explosiveness.
39:48So investing in those types of athletes, those types of potential playmakers,
39:53I think is the absolutely right way to go when you're talking about
39:57a potential top five pick.
39:59Absolutely, anybody else in maybe those mid rounds that you kind of like as
40:03a sneaky situational pass rusher type?
40:05Hey, I'm sorry, dude, the bus is coming.
40:07I gotta get my kids off the bus here.
40:09Yeah, no problem, no problem.
40:10Is it cool if I just do a quick little outro?
40:12I'll let you get out of here.
40:13Yeah, awesome.
40:14All right, Dane, that was so much fun.
40:16Thank you so much for being on.
40:17Now, please let the people know where they can find you and
40:19the great work you got coming down the pipeline,
40:21including obviously the mock draft they dropped today.
40:24Yeah, you can find everything at The Athletic, at DP Broogler.
40:27I appreciate everyone checking out.
40:29The Beast is gonna come out here in a few months.
40:30So I can't wait to keep this conversation going.
40:33My absolute draft Bible.
40:35Thank you again, Dane, for your time.
40:36And thank you all as always for watching.
40:38Now take care of yourselves.
40:39Take care of each other.
40:41We will see you next time.
40:42Peace y'all.
40:43♪♪
40:53♪♪