In this episode of the Greg Bedard Patriots Podcast w/ Nick Cattles, the guys dive into key offseason storylines for the New England Patriots, including Robert Kraft confirming that Josh McDaniels was Mike Vrabel’s first choice for offensive coordinator. They also react to the Patriots releasing OT Chukwuma Okorafor and extending DT Jeremiah Pharms on a two-year deal.
Later, they discuss what should be the Patriots' top offseason priority, reflect on key takeaways from Super Bowl LIX, and engage in a heated debate: Patrick Mahomes vs. Tom Brady.
Timestamps:
0:00 – Robert Kraft confirms Josh McDaniels was Mike Vrabel’s first OC choice
4:26 – Patriots release OT Chukwuma Okorafor
6:19 – Patriots sign DT Jeremiah Pharms to two-year extension
7:55 – What will the Patriots’ offseason priority be?
13:35 – Key takeaways from Super Bowl LIX
37:35 – Heated Mahomes vs. Brady debate
************************************************
Patriots Content Brought to you by....
💰 Prize Picks - https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/CLNS
Download the app today and use Code CLNS at PrizePicks.com/CLNS & Get $50 instantly when you play $5!
Later, they discuss what should be the Patriots' top offseason priority, reflect on key takeaways from Super Bowl LIX, and engage in a heated debate: Patrick Mahomes vs. Tom Brady.
Timestamps:
0:00 – Robert Kraft confirms Josh McDaniels was Mike Vrabel’s first OC choice
4:26 – Patriots release OT Chukwuma Okorafor
6:19 – Patriots sign DT Jeremiah Pharms to two-year extension
7:55 – What will the Patriots’ offseason priority be?
13:35 – Key takeaways from Super Bowl LIX
37:35 – Heated Mahomes vs. Brady debate
************************************************
Patriots Content Brought to you by....
💰 Prize Picks - https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/CLNS
Download the app today and use Code CLNS at PrizePicks.com/CLNS & Get $50 instantly when you play $5!
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SportsTranscript
00:00This is the Greg Bidard Patriots podcast with Nick Cavins.
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00:50All right, let's start in our own backyard, Greg.
00:55Before we get to the Superbowl and thoughts about that, Robert Kraft, late last week down
01:00in New Orleans, spoke with Chad Graff of The Athletic and he confirmed your reporting from
01:07a week ago that Josh McDaniels was 100% a Mike Vrabel hire.
01:12Kraft said that Vrabel brought McDaniels up during the interview process, quote unquote,
01:17without pause.
01:19None of this is a surprise.
01:21Can we put this to bed and have you heard anything else since your reporting last week?
01:26Of course we can't put it to bed, Nick, because people have takes that they're adhering to,
01:34all that good stuff, including the fellows I'll be on with from two to six today.
01:43People aren't going to quit it.
01:44I heard people on Twitter already saying, who believes Kraft, he's lying.
01:49All these people have heard Felger and Maz say what they've said and they latch onto
01:53it and they think it's correct.
01:55I mean, I just don't know what else to tell people other than, I do want to point out
02:02again that when I myself went on the show two weeks ago and I talked about how I couldn't
02:08push back against their narrative and in fact, looking at all the circumstances, I subscribed
02:15to it, that maybe this was an arranged marriage and all that stuff and again, I was uninformed
02:21at the time.
02:22I admitted at the time it was an uninformed opinion, but it was just me talking about
02:27what I saw, but then I became informed, very informed and I don't know what else to tell
02:33people other than multiple people have told me that this was sort of in the works for
02:40a while.
02:41I mean, I go back to our podcasts from December where I sort of said, Vrabel could be coming
02:48with Josh McDaniels and then I sort of walked that back a little bit and like, look, it's
02:52always been there.
02:53And again, from what I could tell, I think Arthur Smith was number one on Vrabel's list,
03:00but that wasn't going to happen.
03:01Arthur Smith already had a job.
03:03So then what are you going to do?
03:05I mean, the whole Tommy Reese factor, I don't know.
03:08That's sort of like a blind spot.
03:11Nobody brought up his name to me.
03:12I would have been surprised if it was Tommy Reese because I just think he's a little inexperienced
03:16and I think he's in this perfect spot with Kevin Stefanski as his offensive coordinator
03:21for a guy who calls the plays and then he'll be ready for an OC role or who knows, a head
03:27coach role.
03:28But I think it was McDaniels all along, again, it was tough for them to really finalize details
03:37because Josh wasn't, I don't think Josh was just going to move anywhere due to family
03:43circumstances.
03:44So how was that going to factor in?
03:45They didn't know what jobs are going to open up.
03:47I mean, if they knew two months ago that Mayo was getting fired, then it probably would
03:52have been more on solid ground.
03:54But all of this happened so fast that, you know, I don't think the, I don't think the
04:01crafts impose their will.
04:03Vrabel had his pick of jobs.
04:06He wasn't going to be saddled with an offensive coordinator that he didn't want.
04:09I think that the McDaniels QB development factor is huge in all of this and was paramount
04:15in Mike Vrabel's mind.
04:17And so, you know, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to say Josh McDaniels was the best
04:21guy at the end of the day.
04:23All right, I'm moving on.
04:25Let's move on.
04:26The Patriots are moving on from Chooks, a core for he was officially released by the
04:30team.
04:31I just got one question for you, Greg, regarding a core for.
04:34I remember when he decided to leave, I guess we would say, uh, Phil Perry had mentioned
04:40it was kind of a mental health situation without prying too much.
04:44Do we have any idea what happened last year?
04:47Was it just a core for didn't like the staff?
04:49The staff didn't like a core for he didn't like moving to the left side.
04:52Like what, what the hell happened with him last year?
04:56Where did it go so bad, so quick?
05:01It's a great question.
05:02Um, you know, I'm not really sure.
05:05Um, I think it could be, you know, I, I was having an interesting, you know, sort of text
05:12discussion with a team source, uh, during the super bowl and things like that.
05:16And I found, cause we were talking about like, uh, he was sort of blowing me and also the
05:23chiefs about Kingsley Suamatea who couldn't, didn't play in the super bowl.
05:29And, uh, I said, you know, I said, uh, I answered back with chooks and he said both
05:38got benched and I said one quit.
05:42And he said, allegedly.
05:43So I don't know what that means.
05:46I mean, you could probably make more of it than I did.
05:48I'm not that bright.
05:50Um, but if I had to guess, um, I don't think that, I don't think that chooks really liked
06:01Scott Peter's coaching or strike zone.
06:05I've heard that there were multiple players who weren't happy about his quote unquote
06:09system and how it didn't fit them.
06:12And you know, that could have factored into everything.
06:17In other news, the Patriots keeping somebody in town for a couple of more years, Jeremiah
06:21farms signs a two-year extension.
06:23Greg, when you look at this defensive line, we'll talk about this more in a minute.
06:27I know you've got some thoughts on, uh, the Patriots and their priority this off season
06:31priority.
06:32Number one, we'll get to that.
06:33But first just your thoughts in a vacuum about Jeremiah farms and him staying here for a
06:37couple more years.
06:38I like it.
06:39I thought, you know, I haven't done my, uh, now that we're finally through the super bowl
06:42and putting the staff together and all that stuff, I sort of have time to regroup and
06:47sort of finish off migrating from the system, including the last game I did watch, um, you
06:52know, Joe Milton's film, uh, which was very impressive, but you know, just off the top
06:58of my head, I thought Jeremiah farms had a couple of games that he was in my top three.
07:02Um, so, you know, a little undersized, but, um, I think he has the ability to fit sort
07:10of a, this is going to be more of a gap penetrating scheme than what we're used to in new England.
07:15And I think that's going to fit him well.
07:17And I think he's been a good productive player here and I look forward to that.
07:20I mean, it's a good, good depth signing.
07:23Another guy for depth.
07:24I just want to bring this up for a second, just kind of stick a pin in this, who knows
07:27what's going to happen moving forward.
07:29But I thought you Quailin Roy, uh, showed up a few times last year before he got injured.
07:33I think he's an interesting guy as well, again, as a depth piece more than anything else,
07:38but with farms and with Roy, you might have something there with those guys.
07:42And that's how you start to build depth.
07:44They're not going to sit there and, you know, jump out at you all the time, but to have
07:47a couple of younger guys for depth purposes on this defensive line, it's pretty important.
07:53With that said, have you heard anything, Greg, I just kind of noted this a second ago.
07:57Have you heard anything about the trenches this off season, especially coming off that
08:02Superbowl on Sunday night, where obviously the Eagles, it was all about the trenches.
08:06Yeah, I think this was even before the Eagles Superbowl.
08:09I think, you know, now that the coaching staff and the scouting staff, well, the scouting
08:14staff has been doing it the whole time, um, since they largely, most of the group outside
08:18of Ryan Cowden has been here the entire time, but you know, what they're doing right now
08:23is they're all in the building.
08:25They're reviewing last year, they're evaluating players.
08:27They're trying to set the scheme for next year.
08:29You know what, what they're going to do, what they need, all that stuff.
08:32And from what I've been told from a couple of different people is that even before the
08:37Superbowl the other night, that the two lines, the offensive and defensive lines are going
08:43to be the top priority this off season.
08:46I mean, I think they look at it and it makes sense.
08:49And I agree with it.
08:50Of course, everybody knows I agree with it, um, that you have to have the foundation and
08:59that's the, that's the offensive line on offense.
09:01It's the defensive line.
09:03If, if you don't, if you're not right there, if you're getting pushed around, like we saw
09:07with the chiefs the other night, especially with their offensive line, you have no shot.
09:11It doesn't matter who your quarterback is.
09:13It doesn't matter what you have for weapons.
09:15It doesn't matter.
09:17And this was the, both of these groups have been neglected for so long.
09:21And again, this goes back to Bill Belichick.
09:23When you and I were railing on, they got to go get tackles.
09:27How long are you going to rely on Trent Brown?
09:29Like, you know, you need to get a replacement for David Andrews.
09:32Like, you know, what about, you know, Joe Tooney and all that stuff.
09:35And you know, the guys up front, Devon Gotchow is like really the only nose tackle and you
09:40know, Barmore is really the only playmaker up there and you got Keon White, but what
09:44do you got on the other side?
09:45And Josh Ushay goes out the door, you know, Anthony Jennings is nice, but you know, from
09:50what I understand, the two lines are going to be the priority.
09:54I don't think people are going to be happy about it.
09:56I don't think radio is going to like it and all that stuff, but who freaking who?
10:01That's how you build a team.
10:03Look at the Eagles.
10:04Look at what they've done to Superbowl appearances in three years.
10:09They destroy the chiefs on Sunday.
10:12And why is it?
10:13It's because they completely owned both lines of scrimmage from the inside out a couple
10:18things.
10:19Uh, let's not forget Vrabel's introductory press conference.
10:23One of the first things he said was we got to protect our quarterback.
10:26We've got to protect Drake May, right?
10:28Got to protect Drake May and we have to, I forget if he said affect or impact the opposing
10:34quarterback.
10:35So that tells you, and Vrabel also said a lot about the offensive line during that introductory
10:41press conference.
10:42He's been pretty consistent about this.
10:44So I think that's exactly what this team is going to do.
10:48They're going to go out there.
10:49They're going to put a lot of emphasis on offensive and defensive line and start building
10:53at the trenches and then build out.
10:55Just go from there, protect Drake May, get after the other quarterback.
10:59That's the goal.
11:00Uh, and just, you know, Belichick's look, I don't want to go too far through this all,
11:05but honestly, and I know last year and people will kill Elliot Wolf and I get it.
11:10The plan didn't work.
11:11The injuries that didn't help a core of four situation that didn't help.
11:15But we're talking about, uh, sustained ignorance on the offensive line from bill Belichick
11:21and you know, the Joe Tooney, the Shaq Mason stuff, even Ted Karras.
11:27I think they drafted, uh, I think they drafted one offensive lineman in the top 100 from
11:32like Isaiah Wynn through Cole strange.
11:35It just, it was just absolutely ridiculous.
11:38And this is why you saw what you saw last year.
11:41You can't rebuild that thing in one season.
11:44All right, before we get to, uh, Patrick Mahomes, chiefs, Patriots, Brady, all that discussion.
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13:34Greg, do too many people put too much significance on the Superbowl?
13:39I don't know how you feel about it, Nick.
13:42Yes, I think so.
13:43And I understand it's the big game and I understand that there's a lot of attention and I understand
13:49all the media's there all week and doing all these interviews and talking about the game.
13:54But you know, you hear this discussion and look, I, I agreed with, we heard the same
14:01sort of discussion with Patriots fans when, you know, there was an argument about, you
14:05know, so Tom Brady got three Superbowl titles pretty quickly in his career and Patriots
14:10fans like wanted him in the discussion with Joe Montana and people were pushing back because
14:15Joe Montana was 4-0 in Superbowls and had the four titles and, you know, you can't say
14:21that about Brady, you know, and this went on and on until he finally got his fourth
14:25in 2014.
14:26I mean, there was a 10 year span where he didn't get a Superbowl title and, you know,
14:31some people wanted to say that Brady didn't deserve to be in the discussion because Montana
14:36was 4-0 in Superbowls.
14:38And I agreed with Patriots fans.
14:40I was on their side where I thought that line of discussion was utterly ridiculous
14:45because wait, you're saying, so Joe Montana doesn't get into any more Superbowls, but
14:51Brady's been to, I don't know, at the time, six or seven.
14:55And you know, just because he lost to the Giants twice, like all of a sudden he's lesser
15:02than Joe Montana, like, you know, getting there and getting to the conference championship
15:06games, like that pales in comparison to Joe Montana when he only went to four Superbowls.
15:13Like I just didn't get that discussion.
15:15And I also don't get it about Patrick Mahomes.
15:19You know, this is a guy who's, you know, in his seventh season, he's never failed to make
15:24it less than the conference championship game.
15:27He's lost two Superbowls against number one defenses and yeah, you know, they were somewhat
15:31lopsided, but to me that doesn't matter.
15:35I mean, what's the difference between, you know, and I know the scores were quote unquote
15:38closer, but we all know the game.
15:40I mean, whether it was, you know, the Broncos in an early AFC championship game or the Jets
15:46game at home or the Ravens divisional round game when the Ravens ran all over the Patriots,
15:53I don't see the difference between those games and Patrick Mahomes losing to a great Bucs
15:59defense, a great Eagles defense and struggling.
16:03I just don't get that whole line of discussion just because it's a Superbowl doesn't mean
16:10it's it's has like that much more added significance when we're talking about the, when you're
16:15evaluating a player and how great they are.
16:17I mean, Tom Brady was on the same level as Joe Montana, even though he had one less Superbowl
16:23title, Patrick Mahomes, like the only way, like going into this week and we talked about
16:28it last week, like if he got three straight, then you could say, okay, he joins the conversation
16:32because that's something nobody's ever done.
16:35And that would be his fourth Superbowl title already in seven seasons.
16:38And now you're like, all right, now he joins the discussion.
16:41If he does that, he didn't do it.
16:43That doesn't mean all of a sudden he goes back to being some crap bag.
16:46I mean, it's still Brady and he's below, but I don't know.
16:50I just think it's ridiculous how much people put emphasis on a Superbowl when your season
16:55end was your season ends.
16:57If you crap out in the divisional round, you know, I think it's worse than the Superbowl.
17:03I have roughly 777 thoughts on this, so I'm going to try to like, just hone it in as best
17:09as I can.
17:13I look at it from the big picture, okay?
17:15I have no issue with people debating which stretch was better.
17:22Was Brady's stretch with the Patriots from what, 16 to 18 or whatever the hell it was,
17:29that three-year stretch when he was 39 years old to 41 years old, and he went to three
17:32Superbowls and he won two out of three.
17:35And the only one that he lost, he threw for over 500 yards, which is a record and had
17:40three touchdowns and zero picks.
17:42I have no problem with debating that stretch versus this stretch by Mahomes, where he went
17:48to three straight and won two out of the three and got absolutely smoked.
17:51I mean, slightly opposite, I think is a very nice way that you put it.
17:55They got their asses handed to them on Sunday night.
17:57That was a demolition.
17:59So I have no problem with the stretch conversation.
18:01I have no problem.
18:02I stole it from you.
18:03As a matter of fact, Greg, I hosted on 98.5 on Sunday and I stole the whole, I was driving
18:09around and I heard it.
18:11The prime conversation.
18:12I have no problem with debating, okay, what did these guys look like during their prime?
18:16The goat conversation was outrageous.
18:19It was out.
18:20It should not have even been a conversation in my mind.
18:23People can do what they do.
18:24They can cover it the way they want to cover it.
18:26It's their world.
18:27If they want to talk about that, that's their right.
18:29I mean, I'm not a King here.
18:31I'm not, I'm not telling you that nobody can talk about it.
18:34Everybody can talk about it.
18:35If they'd like me personally, it was outrageous.
18:38So I just kind of look at this through 21 playoff games, through 21 playoff games, Patrick
18:45Mahomes is 17 and four Brady was 16 and five pretty damn close.
18:50I would also add that the biggest issue that I have, Greg, and I don't know how you feel
18:55about it.
18:56I'll ask you the goat conversations to me.
18:59I understand why we do it, but it's so difficult when you're talking about how sports evolve
19:05and how they change.
19:07And, and I'll just give you one simple example, Patrick Mahomes over the last couple of years
19:14trying to remember when that rule changed, but now the one seat is the only team that
19:18gets the buy.
19:19So when you're Kansas city and you're the one seed, that's a whole different world,
19:25right?
19:26Because even when Brady was the one seed for a lot of his run, the two seat had the buy
19:30as well.
19:31So you still had an equally rested team going against you inevitably.
19:35If things fell chalk in the AFC championship game, that's not the case anymore.
19:40The chiefs had 20 plus days of rest before the playoffs this year.
19:45So I mean, we can get into so many different conversations about, you know, how it breaks
19:50down the rules, how they're called, how the game is called now, all of that stuff.
19:56And so to me, it's like, I get it.
19:59I went through it with LeBron and Michael Jordan.
20:01It's the same kind of thing with me.
20:03People were way too premature about anointing LeBron, the greatest of all time.
20:07I think people have been way too premature anointing Patrick Mahomes as the goat or close
20:14to the goat.
20:15Stephen A. Smith said that if if Patrick won on Sunday, he's the goat.
20:19No question.
20:20Austin Mock.
20:21Let it.
20:22Yeah.
20:23Austin Mock from the athletic.
20:24People can Google this.
20:25Go.
20:26The athletic over the weekend, Austin Mock wrote that if Patrick Mahomes won against
20:30the Eagles, that the case was closed.
20:32He's the goat.
20:33And it's not even necessarily close.
20:34I think that's the kind of stuff that irritates people because it's unreasonable.
20:39It's ridiculous.
20:41And we don't know.
20:43One last thing before I kick it to you, back to you about the goat thing.
20:48One thing that we don't know, and this is why I think it's just way too premature.
20:52We don't know what's going to happen the next five years, the next 10 years.
20:55Like what if Mahomes is starting his decline?
20:58His last two seasons statistically have been his worst.
21:00Now, yes, you can look at talent, but you could also look at will he stay in shape?
21:05Will his athleticism start to erode?
21:08We don't know what, like this could have been his last chance to win a Superbowl in
21:12the next five, six, seven years.
21:14And I had a caller when I was talking about the prime thing that you brought up in Boston
21:18sports journal.
21:20I thought the caller nailed it.
21:22I remember his name because it was such a good call.
21:23Eric from Texas and he, he nailed it.
21:27He compared it to Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus and said, when Tiger Woods ran through golf
21:36and he was like one major away from, from Jack, everybody was like, Tiger's the greatest
21:40of all times.
21:42And then everything Tiger's world crumbled.
21:45I'm not saying Mahomes is will, but he still has a lot to do to gain as far as goat goes.
21:52And we just don't know the future, Greg.
21:53Yeah.
21:54I mean, you know, my only point about the whole discussion in last week, and I did think
21:58that, you know, because of Brady's longevity and how he has seven Superbowl titles, like
22:03that was a ways off to like, you know, my home's to really have a chance.
22:07And so to me, the more pertinent thing was, you know, the, if he, if he won three straight,
22:13like let's look at their primes and who would you take?
22:15And I think both of I heard you, both of us agreed that we would take my homes because
22:20of the athletic ability that he, that he represents that, that everything else is so close with
22:25those guys, the intangibles, the comebacks, the, you know, the clutch play, like all that
22:30stuff is so close.
22:31Like, I mean, it's basically the same and you know, I would just go with the guy with
22:35a little better, better athletic ability.
22:37We don't even know how long he's going to sustain that.
22:39He could turn into Brady and be a pocket quarterback in five years, you know, especially if he,
22:44if he suffers some sort of injury, but you know, my big thing about the whole discussion
22:50was the only way my homes even entered the conversation to being like goat adjacent was
23:00if he did something that nobody else has done, and that would have been three straight super
23:03bowl titles in and four, and I think it was six years or four and seven years, then, then
23:10you would have been like, okay, but it would have been very, like you said, very similar
23:13to tiger woods.
23:14And like, I don't think it was wrong to, to include, put tiger in the hemisphere of Jack
23:24Nicholas, who was my favorite.
23:25But, but ultimately like, you're right.
23:30Like I thought it was ridiculous to say tiger's the greatest of all time when he hadn't passed
23:34Jack yet.
23:35And then I would have said the same thing.
23:36I would have been like my homes is there on that level, but he's not where Brady is yet.
23:42That's even if he won and then he lost.
23:44And so, but, but I also did, I disregard, like I heard failure yesterday saying like,
23:48well, if he could have gained this in this game, then he's got to lose.
23:53No, like you're here.
23:55If you win and do something, somebody else isn't like, you're still on the same level.
23:59And so I don't think my homes lost anything on Sunday.
24:02I know some, I'm sure certain, and I've heard this Patriots fans will glob onto the whole
24:08blowout thing.
24:09And we'll talk more about that in a second, but you know, I still think it's a, I still
24:15think he's there.
24:16He can get there whether he does or not.
24:19We'll see.
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25:52Was Philadelphia much better than people gave them credit for being?
25:56That was my conclusion watching this game and sort of, you know, doing some research
26:00and I'm still in the process of it because, you know, I asked my buddy Aaron Schatz over
26:05at FTN, you know, the DVOA guru to give me some numbers because since they moved from
26:12Football Outsiders to FTN, they're limited on it.
26:16Like they only go back to like 2020, but of course he has all the numbers.
26:22You know, I'll just readily admit this was a blind spot for me.
26:25I think anybody who listens to this podcast knows that I don't really watch the NFL during
26:30the NFL season.
26:31Like I'm singularly focused on the Patriots and, you know, I might catch the straight
26:34Thursday night game or maybe get home for the second half of Sunday night football or,
26:39you know, watch a little bit of the playoffs, but I'm not really watching the league all
26:43year and, you know, so I didn't realize how good the Eagles were.
26:49And I think what really brought it home for me was I was listening to Chris Simms sort
26:54of Superbowl recap and he picked the Eagles by 10 in that game.
26:59And he said, and he watches the whole league, he watches a lot of films.
27:02So these are the guys that I rely on to sort of fill me in on how good, whether it's him
27:07or Greg Cosell.
27:09These are the guys that I listened to to get a clue on the rest of the league.
27:12And he said, if you draft, if you put together a 22 man all-star team at every position from
27:20this game that the Eagles would have about 18 of the 22 positions, probably you would
27:26go with Mahomes, Chris Jones, Trent McDuffie, and one of the guards, either Joe Tooney or
27:36Trey Smith for the Chiefs.
27:38Other than that, you would take all Eagles.
27:40And you know, you factor in the Vic Fangio factor.
27:44And I think people really slept on how good this team was.
27:49And I mean, the Superbowl brought it home for me.
27:51I was just like, you know, holy crap, this is an Eagles team that also destroyed the
27:54commanders in the conference championship game.
27:58This is an Eagles team that I'm just trying to find.
28:06So since the bye week, they were 15-1.
28:11They were 2-2 at the bye.
28:13That's sort of the Eagles team that I remember.
28:14Maybe I saw them earlier.
28:17The Eagles were 16-1 since their bye week.
28:20They had a plus-238 point margin in those games.
28:24They were a plus-28 turnover margin.
28:27I think they were a plus-14, no, maybe plus-12 turnover margin in the postseason alone.
28:34Just to give you context on the point margin of plus-238, I think the 2007 Patriots in
28:41the regular season were plus-315.
28:47This Eagles team won, in that 17 games, they won nine games by double digits, five games
28:54by 20-plus points.
28:58They entered this game, they finished the year with the number one DVOA defense.
29:04Since about week six, when Fangio's new scheme really started to take hold, Aaron Shouts
29:09told me that defense was ridiculous, down the stretch in the final 17 games or what
29:18have you.
29:20Then you factor in on offense, the offensive line.
29:24You factor in Saquon Barkley.
29:27I think that was the biggest factor in this, as far as the Eagles offense against the Chiefs
29:31defense, is that the Chiefs had to stop.
29:34They had to sell it to stop the run, or else they never would have gotten off the field.
29:37That's the way Spaggs looked at it.
29:41At times, that left Eagles receivers one-on-one, and credit to Jalen Hurts, and A.J. Brown,
29:49and Devontae Smith, and Dotson, and all these guys for executing.
29:58You're going one-on-one.
29:59If you looked at a spray chart for Jalen Hurts, it's all along the sidelines.
30:04It's all deep.
30:05He either went back shoulder or deep.
30:07They picked on 35, the other cornerback who couldn't keep up.
30:14This Eagles team, once the Chiefs fell behind, they were unstoppable.
30:20To me, I think the story of this game is not about Patrick Mahomes, and not about how he
30:26played.
30:27It's a little bit on Andy Reid.
30:29I thought Spaggs was fine in this game.
30:31It was just the score got away from him.
30:33To me, the story of this game, and I think given time and context, I think people will
30:38come up to it, is how good this Eagles team was.
30:43Too many people, including myself, slept on them.
30:46This was, and I'm going through the numbers, but according to Shotz's numbers, especially
30:53the way the Eagles finished this season, you're talking about a top-10 Super Bowl team that
30:57this Eagles team was, and I don't think they got enough respect coming into this game.
31:03Damn good football team.
31:04I find it interesting that even Vegas had Kansas City as the favorites, minus one and
31:09a half.
31:10Usually Vegas knows.
31:11Right?
31:12Vegas didn't think the Eagles were that much better than the Chiefs.
31:16There are a lot of thoughts here.
31:18Again, the Eagles are really good.
31:21When I looked at this game, and I was wrong, I raised my hand.
31:24I had the Chiefs winning.
31:25I thought it was going to be a close, great game.
31:27Wrong, wrong, wriggly, wrong, wriggly, wrong, right?
31:29Totally wrong, but I would say that I looked at this and I had mentioned that 18 straight
31:36playoff games, Kansas City did not give up a 100-yard rusher.
31:41I didn't think Barkley was going to have a big game, and he didn't.
31:44They just absolutely snuffed out Barkley, and so my thought process was, okay, now you
31:48got McDuffie versus AJ Brown, not a bad matchup, and it's going to be on Jalen Hurts, and so
31:56Hurts played as well as he played a couple years ago in the Super Bowl against Kansas
32:00City.
32:01So I think maybe, looking at Hurts, that was kind of the thing that people overlooked,
32:08is that he could have been as effective as he was, like he was a couple years ago, and
32:12he would be able to do it again versus Steve Spagnuolo, because frankly, since Week 5,
32:18Greg, you mentioned it, yeah, they've been 16-1, but don't get it twisted.
32:22They didn't ask Jalen Hurts to do a lot.
32:24Their passing offense was very, very conservative.
32:28Their offense was led by Saquon Barkley and Jalen Hurts' legs.
32:32They were a run-first football team.
32:34This is the first team, since I think it was 1975, to win a Super Bowl that had more rushing
32:40yards than passing yards through the season, including the playoffs.
32:44This hasn't happened in almost 50 years, this type of offense, okay?
32:47So I do think, you know, defensively, they're awesome.
32:52Offensive line is awesome.
32:54It really came down to Jalen Hurts.
32:56As far as, you know, looking at this Eagles team and other teams and teams that Brady
33:02faced, I feel the same way about that as I felt about, you know, the GOAT conversation
33:07and how teams evolve and things happen.
33:10Like, the game is played differently.
33:13I would say that Mahomes was atrocious on Sunday night.
33:17Yes, there was pressure, and there was lots of pressure, and the first half, the pressure
33:21was near 52%.
33:22I get it.
33:24Tom Brady against the Giants back in 07 was pressured more than 43% of the time, and that
33:29was a three-point game.
33:30So yes, we've seen great quarterbacks, including Brady, be impacted by the pass rush, but Brady
33:38never looked that bad in a big game as far as the Super Bowl, the biggest game, right?
33:42He looked bad.
33:43He had some stinkers in the playoffs.
33:45People forget about those, but I mean, when you look at it, I thought Mahomes was off
33:50from the very beginning of the game.
33:52He had Travis Kelsey wide open, I think, on the first drive for a third down.
33:55He threw it well behind him.
33:57He had Kelsey open again in a little, you know, little sit-down route at the chains,
34:01and he threw it at his feet.
34:03I thought Mahomes all night was erratic until the end when it was garbage time.
34:07I thought he was firing the ball all over the place, and Brady mentioned this early.
34:13His feet, like out of the gate, we talked about this with Drake May, Mahomes' feet,
34:18he was tap dancing in the pocket immediately.
34:21I don't think he went into that game feeling great about his offensive line, and he just
34:26didn't play well.
34:27It's as simple as that.
34:28Yes, you give a lot of credit to the Eagles, but when plays were there, he had worthy open
34:33early in the game for a big play and just didn't throw the football.
34:36He missed them.
34:37I do think there were some opportunities early in that game to keep it close, and Mahomes
34:42shit his pants.
34:43I mean, we could just be honest about it.
34:45He shit his pants.
34:46It's fine.
34:47It doesn't mean he's a bad quarterback.
34:48It doesn't mean he's crap.
34:49It doesn't mean the Chiefs are crap.
34:50It doesn't mean he's not going to end up being one of the best of all time.
34:53On Sunday night, he crapped his pants, and I think we all saw it.
34:57Even when he had time, even when he could deliver the football, he was not the same
35:01guy.
35:02I just disagree, and I've been consistent on this for years.
35:08People know from either the pod or the radio that I am a big believer in pressure rates
35:15on quarterbacks, that anything over 40, you start getting in the danger zone.
35:22Over 50, forget it.
35:25I was looking at the pressure rates in their career among Mahomes and Brady, and it's pretty
35:35consistent.
35:37Brady, when he was pressured 45.7% of the time or more, he lost 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6
35:50of 9 games.
35:53Patrick Mahomes, and I couldn't find that.
35:58Patrick Mahomes, he lost 1, 2, 3, 4.
36:04He was 4 of 8 in games with the same sort of pressure rate.
36:08The Tampa Bay Buccaneers Super Bowl was 55.4%.
36:12This game, when the game, like you said, this game, when it was in the balance, was 53,
36:17and this started from the get-go.
36:20This was the same thing with Brady, and I used to excuse Brady.
36:24Whether it was the giant Super Bowls or what, I would excuse him and be like, what do you
36:27want him to do?
36:28There's too much pressure.
36:32Is there a difference between though, Greg?
36:34See, what I have a beef with here is I don't disagree with you.
36:38Pressure rate affects teams, affects the offenses, affects quarterbacks.
36:42My problem is Brady wasn't humiliated often.
36:48It's not just losing the game.
36:49It's the fact that there are levels to this, and Mahomes was humiliated.
36:54He was atrocious.
36:57You can look at the Super Bowl against the Giants where Brady wasn't atrocious.
37:01He wasn't great, but he wasn't that bad.
37:04I think people are looking at it and saying, for example, Sunday night was Mahomes' second
37:09worst career start when you look at QBR.
37:13You could argue that was literally his second worst game of his career.
37:19I just think there are levels to the idea of, do you get beat or do you keep it competitive?
37:27I think Brady didn't always have this, and again, this is the longevity thing.
37:31Mahomes will play more football games and we'll see how it ends up.
37:36But Brady, when you're talking especially Super Bowls, Jeff Howe tweeted earlier this
37:41week or over the weekend, Brady walked off the field in the fourth quarter overtime in
37:46all 10 Super Bowls with a lead.
37:49He had the ability to just find a way to keep his offense and his team in the game, and
37:55Mahomes has not shown that the two times where he faced major adversity in the biggest game.
37:59I just think it's similar to what you said about comparing different errors.
38:04I just don't think you can compare.
38:08How can you compare Eli Manning going up against ... If he went up against this Eagles offense
38:14or a great offense in the Super Bowl, he might have gotten waxed.
38:18He just didn't.
38:19He faced Eli Manning twice with limited weapons, very conservative offenses.
38:25He faced Jake DeLome.
38:27He lost to Nick Foles.
38:29Just because ... Again, this is the Super Bowl discussion.
38:32Just because it happened and just because it was closer or whatever, to me that's more
38:36about how the Patriots were constructed.
38:39You get these type of games when ... I thought Mahomes played really well in the Bucs Super
38:44Bowl, where he faced the highest pressure rate of his career when he was on ... He had
38:50a hurt foot.
38:53You get blowouts when you can't block the sustained pressure, and there's no answers.
38:59At least Tom Brady had James White to dump off to in the Atlanta Super Bowl 37 times,
39:05or Julian Edelman.
39:08Mahomes doesn't have any of those guys to do any of that.
39:09Chiefs aren't a good football team is what you're telling us.
39:11They're just not a good ... They're not a good football team.
39:14Not against one of the great top 10 Super Bowl teams of all time.
39:20Nobody's going to stack up those Giants teams against any of these Super Bowl teams.
39:24They're bad teams.
39:25I think those Giants teams had a plus ... One was a minus six for the season.
39:35One was a plus 22.
39:37To me it's apples and oranges.
39:38You're talking about ... Mahomes got blasted by two teams that finished number one overall
39:44DVOA.
39:45Because he got blown out, you're saying that Tom Brady's better?
39:48Maybe just like Belichick's better?
39:51He had better weapons around him, whether it was Welker or Edelman or James White?
39:57I just don't subscribe to that.
40:01I understand what you're saying.
40:02Big picture, I don't necessarily disagree that the Eagles and Bucs were great football
40:07teams, but ... Or at least great defenses.
40:11But again, we're looking at different seasons.
40:17We're looking at different, in some cases, errors.
40:20We're looking at different strengths of schedule.
40:22We're looking at-
40:23Nick, how can you compare what happened on Sunday to 2007 and the Giants?
40:28Saying like, well, Tom Brady lost by three.
40:30Yeah, without factoring in, it's Eli Manning with who, freaking David Tyree and a running
40:37game.
40:38I mean, how can you compare the two?
40:40Because again, we're talking about all-time great quarterbacks facing horrendous pressure
40:46in the Super Bowl.
40:47That's how I can compare it.
40:48Mahomes shit his pants.
40:51Brady didn't.
40:52And I would also say-
40:53Brady never faced anything like that in the Super Bowl.
40:56Okay, again, 38% pressure on Sunday night.
40:59We can talk about garbage time.
41:00One of the garbage times was one single pass.
41:02So I don't know about dropbacks and pressure rate according to dropbacks.
41:07I saw Mahomes pressure pretty much through three quarters.
41:11And I saw Brady pressure throughout the entire football game against the Giants because it
41:15was a close game.
41:16So are we going to sit there and say, well, Mahomes faced a lot of pressure in three quarters,
41:19but Brady faced a lot of pressure in four quarters.
41:22We can have this tit for tat.
41:23My point is Mahomes was God awful in the Super Bowl.
41:27Whether it was-
41:28Yes, why?
41:29Why?
41:30You think he just sucked because of the state?
41:31Because of the pressure.
41:33It was there from the get-go.
41:34Joe Cooney couldn't block anybody.
41:36Did Brady suck at 0-7?
41:38Did Brady suck in that Super Bowl?
41:39No.
41:40But the Giants were running away from him.
41:41He wasn't down 24 points at halftime.
41:44If he faced a real offense, he might have.
41:46Pressure is pressure, Greg.
41:47It's 44% versus 38%.
41:50Brady faced more pressure.
41:51Yes, but when you're not trailing, when you're going against an offense where you know they're
41:53not going to run away from you, then you can play a certain way.
41:56You could check it down.
41:57You could turf it.
41:58You could throw it away.
41:59You could take sacks.
42:00But when you're facing, you know, Jalen Hurtson is running and throwing and AJ Brown and Devontae
42:05Smith is Saquon Barkley in a great offensive line.
42:08I'm hearing a lot of excuses from you.
42:09I'm hearing a lot of excuses from you.
42:11This is the same stuff I used to say about Brady when the Jets would make him look terrible.
42:17As far as the Chiefs situation, I'm hearing a ton of excuses from Patrick Mahomes.
42:21That's what I'm hearing.
42:22A team that, a team that went what?
42:23They had what, one or two losses this year?
42:25The entire year?
42:26Did they have like one loss, two losses?
42:27A team that went through the AFC, the AFC, the team that just beat the Buffalo Bills?
42:32A team that has one of the best quarterbacks of all time?
42:35A team that has an offensive line that has at least two pro bowlers on it?
42:39And you know, I mean, all of a sudden, Andy Reid is supposed to be one of the great offensive
42:43minds in football in the history of the game.
42:45Steve Spagnuolo is supposed to be one of the greatest defensive court.
42:48But now all of a sudden, because the Eagles had a great game, they had an unbelievable
42:53game.
42:54All of a sudden, I'm supposed to sit here and cry for Patrick Mahomes because he doesn't
42:58have enough talent in this and that.
42:59How about when Brady was taken out?
43:01The state Super Bowls are football.
43:04Football is the greatest team sport and they don't win just because of quarterbacks.
43:09They don't win and they don't lose just because of quarterbacks.
43:13Everybody knows.
43:14Everybody watched the game.
43:15They didn't have to bleep splits once.
43:16When you can rush with four and get pressure 53% of the time, like in sack the quarterback
43:22six times, like nobody, no quarterbacks doing anything.
43:25The Giants rushed for the NASCAR package throughout the game in 07 and Brady did not look nearly
43:32as bad as my homes looked.
43:33And I would also add this wrong.
43:35If you're going to, if you're going to argue, okay, you think Brady looked as bad as my
43:39homes on Sunday night in 07?
43:40I think you're crazy.
43:41I think you're nuts.
43:42I think you're nuts.
43:43My homes, they had 33 total yards in the first half.
43:47They were completely incompetent, Greg.
43:49Now you're reaching.
43:50I mean, we can disagree.
43:52We can agree to disagree, but now that you're reaching, telling me that Brady looked as
43:55bad in 07 as my homes looked on Sunday night, that's certifiably nuts.
43:59You might want to run that back and, and, and, and think about that maybe like over
44:02the next couple of days and, and, and renege when we talk later in the week for four man
44:08rush for man, rush 43%, 38%.
44:12So what, what are we doing here?
44:14And I would also add this, Greg, you can't tell me, you can't tell me that you would
44:19take Patrick my homes in his prime over Brady because of his athleticism, because that's
44:23a weapon Brady didn't have.
44:25So we can sit here and we can talk about, Oh, well, my homes faced a lot of prey.
44:29He did.
44:30There's no doubt.
44:31They both faced tons of pressure in the biggest game of the season.
44:34Brady doesn't run.
44:35Brady doesn't have the athleticism.
44:37Brady didn't even have as good of an arm as my homes, even in 07.
44:41So if we're going to sit there and we're going to talk about, and I have no problem with
44:44it because I agree with you.
44:45If we're going to sit there and talk about my homes, having athleticism and having more
44:48raw talent and this and that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
44:52Then he should have been able to use that, elevate his own play and elevate the players
44:56around him.
44:57Like Brady did in years like, Oh six, when he was throwing the football to absolutely
45:00nobody.
45:01Like he did in 2018 before they ran the football a ton and it had to get the most out of that
45:06football team.
45:07Like we're acting as if Brady didn't make deep runs in the playoffs with less than what
45:10my homes had this year.
45:12Like again, if we're going to go to, I ended up in the super bowl, I mean, Tom Brady in
45:16the first half against the giants was eight of 14 for 82 yards, you know, three sacks.
45:21And you know, if he was going up against a real offense, uh, and what are you doing in
45:27the second half where we're nitpicking the first, what are you doing in the second half?
45:30Again, the chiefs had 33 yards in the first half, 33 Tom Brady had more than twice the
45:35yards that the chiefs had as a total team.
45:37And that's super bowl.
45:38Yeah.
45:39Cause Andy Reid got out coached.
45:40Vic Fangio had a much better team.
45:42They didn't let Patrick Mahomes escape.
45:44Their, their bull rushing of the ends, driving them back and keeping, keeping it was everybody
45:51else.
45:52This is the same stuff that I used to say when Tom Brady used to lose super bowls, when
45:56pressure was, I mean, it's not on him.
45:59We got to move on.
46:00Do a better job.
46:01You never looked that bad, Greg, if he looked that bad, I'd be with you.
46:04And I'd say, yeah, I remember.
46:05And you know, I remember in, in Oh seven, when he got pressured to Tom by the giants
46:09and he couldn't complete a pass and he was an absolute, he looked like he was frantic
46:12in the pocket.
46:14He looked like he was absolutely lost.
46:15I would sit here and agree with you on that.
46:17I mean, like the jets game, what back in, what the hell year was that?
46:23Was that 2010?
46:24Yeah.
46:25Again, wrong game.
46:27And what did I say?
46:28And what did I say?
46:29I said that when we're comparing these guys, we're looking at longevity for Brady.
46:36Like Brady that's that's Brady's what 10th year.
46:39So like, if we look at Brady started his career, 10 and O in the playoffs, 10 and O.
46:45All right.
46:46All right.
46:47All right.
46:48Let's we're getting off field now.
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48:10We'll just wrap it up here.
48:11Greg Jalen hurts.
48:12Um, where does he rank for you among NFL quarterbacks?
48:17So I did this last night on TV.
48:19I have my homes, Allenboro, Lamar, Stafford, Daniels, Herbert.
48:26Some people will probably push back on that.
48:28I just think, I just think Justin Herbert, we've talked about this before.
48:32I just think he's been a victim of circumstances and the chargers.
48:34I don't think they're very talented.
48:36I think he finally has the right coach and they're getting there, but I mean, I, if you
48:39put Justin hurts on the Eagles, I don't think the, I don't think that the, the, the outcome
48:45is any difference.
48:46And then I have hurts.
48:48Yeah, it hurts for me.
48:51He's around six or seven.
48:52Um, I would not put Herbert before him because Herbert's just been bad in the playoffs.
48:58So, uh, so bad in the playoffs that I just can't overlook it.
49:04And so I, I would put her, it's probably ahead of Herbert.
49:07I do think Herbert is most likely the more like, how do I put this like talented quarterback?
49:14But again, man, oh man, he just, he's been bad in the bigger games.
49:19So, but my homes and Allen and borough and Lamar, those guys are absolutely ahead of
49:24him.
49:25Um, I think you could make the argument for Stafford and others.
49:29I'm probably forgetting people this off the top of my head, but I would, I would probably
49:32put him six or seven.
49:33All right.
49:34I had fun.
49:35I love when me and the big boy go back and forth a little bit.
49:37Uh, he's going to go to Felger and mass.
49:39So I'm sure it'll get just worse for him today.
49:41Uh, everybody enjoy the next few days.
49:44We'll be back later in the week and uh, we'll talk more Patriots until then.
49:48Bye bye.