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00:00Hey, here comes Ramona Shelburne of ESPN. Hi, Momo. How you doing?
00:03What's up, Mark? How are you?
00:05We're doing great here. What the hell's going on with the Nuggets? Is that why you flew to SAC?
00:11Yeah, I'm doing their game today, and, you know, it's one of these...
00:15I always just kind of parachute in. That's always how we work, right?
00:19And, you know, they happen to be on the West Coast, so I was like, okay, I can just fly up there.
00:23But I've sort of been on the phone for the last 24 hours since that happened.
00:27And I think it's, you know, it's weird. When Taylor Jenkins got fired, I was really surprised.
00:33Because, you know, usually people just wait until the end of the year.
00:36Like, they just play it out. And I think the Nuggets, you know, could have done the same thing.
00:40They could have just waited until the end of the year and played it out.
00:42But I get why they didn't, too, in the sense that, yeah, Jokic's in his prime.
00:48You lose four in a row. You've kind of been feeling this way for most of the season.
00:52I think they had kind of come to the conclusion that they were probably going to, you know, change the coach.
00:58And then, you know, decide what they were doing in the front office.
01:02They kind of thought they were going to change the front office there.
01:05But, you know, look, they don't want to waste one more minute, you know, one more day.
01:13And I wouldn't either if I had Nicole Jokic, right?
01:16And you feel like, I don't know if this is going to help this year.
01:19Maybe it's too late, whatever it is.
01:21But, you know, every call I've had with you for the past two years was about the Warriors.
01:25They're trying to do something big, something that matters, right?
01:28Because they have Steph in the end of his prime now.
01:31He's in the golden years, right?
01:33But I get why you do that, because you have a special player on your team.
01:37So this firing was not so much episodic where something happened and it prompted it,
01:42but it was more just systemic where things had gotten to a point where it was going to be broken.
01:48And so they acted now as opposed to waiting for the offseason.
01:52Yeah, that's a good way to put it.
01:54I mean, they definitely, you know, from what I understand, like, I think they might have done this around the all-star break
02:00if they wouldn't have gone on an eight-game winning streak.
02:02You know how sometimes, like, there's, sometimes it feels like people are waiting for the team to lose a little bit
02:08and they can justify the firing, and then they, the point where they were about to do it, they, you know,
02:13they went on a streak.
02:14And so they staved it off for a little while, but it's, it's, I don't, I don't know how, you know,
02:21the Grizzlies certainly haven't benefited from their move, right, so far.
02:25They've just kind of continued the free fall they were in, so I don't, I don't really know how that helped.
02:30But they did something just to do something.
02:32The Nuggets, I don't know, we'll see, and we're about to find out, right?
02:36I mean, I just think, you, just watch your conference, guys.
02:40They were at the two-seed for a really long time, and now they can be in the play-in.
02:44They don't get it together in the last couple games here, right?
02:46I mean, that's pretty stark.
02:50I mean, this game that they're about to play tonight could send them to that play-in situation, no doubt.
02:55And so, Ramona Shelburne of ESPN, this is something that as a group we were talking about earlier today,
03:01and looking at the Nuggets situation, and it does feel like there was a little bit of the two-timeline thing,
03:07like trying to balance, right, we've got draft picks, but we've got Jokic, and so here it blew up,
03:14and the Warriors went through something similarly over the last handful of years, and it didn't blow up.
03:21Somehow the group was all on the same page.
03:25So, what would you say about that, and kind of comparing the situations,
03:28and what does it mean that the Warriors were sort of able to do that without everybody all hating each other?
03:35I know.
03:35I mean, it's, well, you did lose Bob Myers along the way.
03:38You did.
03:38I mean, Bob ducked out, you know?
03:41And I think, you know, there was a couple of trades that sort of didn't work,
03:47but you're right, there's a lot of similarities.
03:49They were definitely doing the two-timeline thing,
03:51and they also had, the Nuggets were also doing a two-timeline thing where they had a coach that wasn't really,
03:57wasn't really doing the two-timeline thing like the front office wanted him to, right?
04:02That obviously, you know, that same thing happened with the Warriors, right?
04:07You know, they had all these lottery picks, and Steve Kerr didn't necessarily play them right away
04:12or develop them in the way that the front office was hoping to, especially for the lottery picks.
04:17Now, the Nuggets, they didn't have lottery picks.
04:19They had, you know, late first-round picks.
04:22Usually, you're lucky if one of those guys turns into a starter.
04:25And so, I get why Michael Malone, just like a lot of veteran coaches,
04:30would not throw the rookie in there right away or give him all that time
04:35or would prefer to play a veteran that he trusts.
04:37And so, I think what's interesting with this situation now is these guys, you know,
04:45they have Jokic, who's due for an extension, right?
04:48They just paid Murray.
04:50They just paid Gordon.
04:51And they have Michael Porter, Jr., who's a good player,
04:54but probably overpaid for your fourth-best player on a team.
04:59And instead of being like the Warriors where they, you know,
05:02they don't have this arena that is light years ahead and prints money and all that stuff.
05:07They play in kind of an older arena.
05:09They just barely worked out their TV deal.
05:14And I don't think they can just blow past the second apron or the salary cap
05:19and pay all these luxury taxes forever.
05:22And it's something that every franchise in this league is looking at now,
05:25which is if you have an expensive team, you can't be a first-round exit.
05:31You can't be a play-in team.
05:33And, like, I know things have changed so dramatically since Jimmy Butler got there,
05:36but, like, the Warriors were in the same place just a little while ago
05:40before that one move, right?
05:42They were an expensive team that was heading for the play-in
05:45or was lucky to get in the play-in.
05:47And there's a lot of really good teams out there.
05:50And I remember talking to the Heat before they traded Jimmy Butler,
05:54and they always thought that their buyer for Jimmy Butler would come from the
05:58Western Conference because there's a lot of teams out there in the West
06:02that are really good and think they can win a title
06:05and are going to end up in the play-in.
06:07And if you're one of those teams, you've got to think long and hard
06:09about how you're playing things, right?
06:11If I'm Minnesota, I'm thinking about what I'm doing.
06:14And they look like they – I mean, that could be a play-in team,
06:16and that's a team we all thought was going to break through this year.
06:19So I don't – this is a very volatile situation because there's so much at stake
06:24in terms of money that people are being paid, in terms of expectations,
06:28and the competitiveness in the West is really hard to –
06:33really hard to wrap your head around how close this really is
06:36between the teams three through eight right now.
06:38Yeah, 49 wins could get you a seven seed, which –
06:42Unbelievable.
06:43That's alarming.
06:43We were talking about the 07 season when the Warriors won 48,
06:47and they were the nine before there was a play-in.
06:49The eight that year was Denver, and they won 50.
06:52So, Ramon, just one more about the Denver situation because I'm so baffled,
06:56but is it more discord between Malone, the GM, and ownership,
07:01or is it Malone, the GM, and the actual players?
07:04I would go your second option.
07:08I think – look, I think there was a cold war between the coach and the GM, right?
07:14And that just made it hard for everybody else to do their job.
07:17You know, just – if you're not on the same page, right?
07:19You know, Calvin Boots are really good – I think he's a really good GM.
07:22I think he's really smart.
07:24He drafted well.
07:25He came up with a strategy to sort of extend the Jokic prime years
07:29by drafting and developing these young guys,
07:31but that requires the coach to play the young guys and to hit on the young guys, right,
07:36for him to hit.
07:36And so that just wasn't working.
07:39And you could feel that tension between the front office
07:42and the coaching staff the whole way.
07:43But I think – you know, 10 years is a long time for a coach.
07:47I mean, Steve Kerr has been there since –
07:50I think Malone's been there one year longer than Kerr.
07:53Is that right?
07:53I'm trying to think of their timelines.
07:55Kerr started in 15.
07:57Malone – it's about the same, yeah.
07:59About the same, yeah.
08:00Yeah, so, like, it's a long time for one voice.
08:05You know, there's a reason why 10 years in the NBA,
08:09even when you're a great coach, are not that long.
08:12You know, like, Spolster's been there for a long time now, Pop.
08:15You know, obviously he's been kind of –
08:17he's dealing with his own situation in San Antonio.
08:19But I think Malone had been there a long time, and he's an old-school guy.
08:23He's hard on the guys, but he wins.
08:26Very smart.
08:26And so, when you're winning, people tolerate that.
08:29When you're losing, they just don't, right?
08:32You're not as affable or you're not as whatever.
08:34And I think that friction between the front office and coach,
08:37I think it just kind of made it hard for everyone else.
08:39And some of that – and this is where when you're the owner,
08:42you get to – you know, you get to fire everyone else, not yourself.
08:46But I think it was kind of created by some external pressure that affected everyone.
08:53Where you – I think Malone got paid after the championship,
08:58and he got an extension, but nobody else really did.
09:01Either his staff or in the front office,
09:03and then everybody kind of has this feeling of, you know,
09:06am I going to still be here?
09:08And, you know, the person you pay is the person you empower, right?
09:11But you have a GM who's – you're empowering him to make these moves
09:15and to take a team in a certain direction,
09:17but you're not necessarily giving him that contract that says,
09:21you're going to be here to do it.
09:23And people know that.
09:25You know, like people feel that.
09:26They know that.
09:27They know who's – where the power is.
09:29You know, it's just – they just made it hard for everyone.
09:31And I guess I'm surprised they fired both,
09:34but I'm not surprised they made a change.
09:35I thought it would probably be one or the other.
09:37But I think in the end, ownership was like, you know what?
09:39Let's just change the whole dynamic.
09:42Ramona Shelburne, ESPN, we know you've got to run.
09:44I wanted to get this from you, though, real quick.
09:46You're so close to the Jimmy Butler thing,
09:48and I want to know what you know about maybe even behind the scenes
09:51how well this is working and how realistic are championship goals.
09:55Like if I just said Cavs, Celtics, Lakers, Warriors, Thunder,
09:59did I just name the champion this year, you think?
10:03Probably, yeah.
10:04That's what I would say.
10:04I mean, I think the two in the East that you named are probably the –
10:08you know, that's going to come from one of those two.
10:10I guess I wouldn't be shocked if somebody else came up out of the East,
10:14but it revokes you feel like pretty heavy favorites.
10:17And then, I don't know.
10:19You know, we're all kind of discounting Houston because they're young.
10:22I don't know why we do that.
10:23I also saw the Lakers beat Houston recently.
10:26But Houston kind of did a number on your Warriors.
10:29I don't know.
10:31We've got to respect them until somebody beats them.
10:34And Oklahoma City, again, young team, really good.
10:37All the metrics say they should win it this year.
10:39They're so far in front of everyone else.
10:41But, you know, I just – I'm one of those guys, like, I never count out –
10:46I never count out players like Steph or LeBron or Jimmy or Draymond.
10:50I never count them out because they've been there before.
10:53They've won it.
10:55You know, Jimmy hasn't won it, but he's been to the finals, obviously.
10:57He knows what it takes.
10:58And, like, when they're older and they only have a few more cracks at it,
11:02like, they don't usually let those slip away.
11:03So, I mean, they – that's why I just kind of think it's – it's that group.
11:08I think you're right.
11:09And I got to say, what did you think of that game last week when the Lakers
11:12and Warriors played?
11:13I was – that was the one – I came in here the next morning, Ramona,
11:17and I was like, that was the one I needed to see.
11:20I'm now convinced.
11:21Yeah.
11:22Yeah.
11:23I mean, I felt the same way.
11:24Like, you know, the Lakers sort of have Houston – I don't want to say they have
11:27their number, but they feel like they could beat them.
11:30But I hadn't seen a game with the Jimmy Warriors and the Luka Lakers yet
11:35until last week.
11:36And that was – I thought that was pretty encouraging for the Warriors, you know,
11:40in any series.
11:41And I thought that the game they played against the Rockets, I thought that
11:44game – you know, they look real tired to me.
11:47Yep.
11:48I thought that was a young team.
11:49They got physical and aggressive with them.
11:52And they were at the end of, like, this – what, did they have a 13-day
11:54stretch there where they were out on the road and they just came home?
11:57I mean, you know, I'm going to give them a pass on that.
11:59But I thought that, again, Lakers game made me take the Warriors real seriously.
12:02Yeah.
12:02I think we're with you.
12:04Hey, Momo, thanks so much for getting to us today.
12:07All right.
12:07Have a good night.
12:08You got it.
12:09Thanks.