The value of the word 'mystical'...

Stefan Molyneux
Stefan Molyneux
  • last year
Can you have a reasonable conversation with someone who seriously uses terms like “spirit” and “God” ? I appreciate the metaphorical purposes behind some religious stories, however I have noticed that there is a growing movement among young conservatives away from reason and towards Christianity. This appears to me to be a reactionary movement against the woke communism on the left. Former atheists such as Mike Cernovich, James Lindsey, and even Jordan Peterson come to mind. After reading about philosophy and empiricism I find it hard to take people seriously when they use mysticism as a substitute for reason and evidence.

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Transcript
00:00:00 All right, good morning everybody, Sivan Malanieu. Let's get on with more great
00:00:04 questions from freedomain.locals.com. Here we go, here we go.
00:00:10 Can you have a reasonable conversation with someone who seriously uses terms
00:00:14 like spirit and God? I appreciate the metaphorical purposes behind some
00:00:19 religious stories, however, I have noticed that there is a growing
00:00:22 movement among young conservatives away from reasoning towards Christianity.
00:00:25 This appears to me to be a reactionary movement against the woke communism on
00:00:29 the left. Former atheists such as Mike Cernovich, James Lindsay and even Jordan
00:00:34 Peterson come to mind. After reading about philosophy and empiricism, I find
00:00:38 it hard to take people seriously when they use mysticism as a substitute for
00:00:41 reason and evidence. Well, that is a very big and deep question. There are depths
00:00:52 to the human experience that I won't say that they defy reason, but reason is one
00:01:02 method of knowing. Now, I'm not a mystic and I hold reason as the highest value,
00:01:06 so you know I'm not slipping into the supernatural murky end of the spectrum,
00:01:11 but I just want to sort of explain. This is what I worked on over the course of
00:01:16 my therapy. I was in therapy for, gosh, I mean I did a couple of hours, three
00:01:23 hours of therapy a week for almost two years and then I spent another six to
00:01:27 eight hours journaling and working on this and, oh, I mean it was a wild ride.
00:01:34 And I'll just tell you about my personal journey. This is not a philosophical
00:01:38 argument, this is a sort of experiential thing and then I'll sort of put the
00:01:42 argument at the end. So the experiential thing was that I had been studying
00:01:47 philosophy for 20 years and I knew it fairly well and I wasn't living it. I had
00:01:58 it as theory, I had it as debate, I had it as knowledge. I did not have it as lived
00:02:02 practice and what happened was I stopped sleeping. I stopped sleeping and I didn't
00:02:14 know why. And I ended up going to therapy because I, and I had tried therapy
00:02:21 before but it, you know, I just didn't connect and didn't really work
00:02:24 or anything like that. So I didn't know why and when I went to therapy my
00:02:29 dreams went nuts. I had characters arise in my dreams that were sort of
00:02:35 archetypes. The bitter old impatient king and the loving mother and I had names
00:02:40 for all of these characters. The bitter old angry king, the King Lear was my, I
00:02:45 called him Lord Gruel and I had names for all of these characters. I had the
00:02:49 wildest debates with these characters and I didn't know really what was going
00:02:54 on. It was this eruptive chaos of, from my unconscious. So the unconscious is
00:03:03 generative and creative and impatient and stern and funny and mocking and of
00:03:15 course if you think of something like Shakespeare and all the characters he
00:03:17 created or Dickens and all the characters he created, Charles Dickens, I
00:03:21 saw a sketch once of Charles Dickens surrounded by all the characters he'd
00:03:27 created, hundreds and hundreds of them and they're all very vivid and so on. So
00:03:31 where does all that come from? It comes from the unconscious. Mozart's music
00:03:36 comes from the unconscious. And how do we work with that? How do we work with the
00:03:44 fact that reason, our rational faculties sit on top of billions of years of
00:03:50 evolution. How do we work with the mind-body dichotomy that reason in the
00:03:56 abstract very often does not translate into reason in the practical, in the
00:04:04 lived, in the experiential, in the acted upon. I mean how do we square the fact
00:04:10 that society says it's good to not be in abusive relationships combined with
00:04:14 massive hostility to anyone who breaks relations with abusive parents? How do
00:04:22 we square the fact that society says don't use violence to get
00:04:28 what you want but parents and oligarchical apparatus often use
00:04:34 violence to get what they want. How do we as a society that have dedicated
00:04:39 ourselves at least in the West to a large degree to reason for thousands of
00:04:44 years, how do we deal with the fact that reason is not lived? It is often there's
00:04:52 lip service to reason but reason is not lived. How and at a personal level how
00:04:59 did I square the fact that I've been studying philosophy for two decades and
00:05:05 yet I was not living it. It's more fun to study but it's better to live. Studying
00:05:15 philosophy gives you a sense of superiority, living philosophy gives you
00:05:19 a sense a deep sense of humility. And so if philosophy is a vanity project which
00:05:25 to some degree it was to me and I liked being able to put things together I
00:05:29 liked being able to understand the world I like being able to understand
00:05:31 abstractions I like being able to understand politics and the economy and
00:05:34 human relations and so on from a philosophical standpoint I really
00:05:39 enjoyed that it was great and had value don't get me wrong it had value but I
00:05:44 wasn't living it. It wasn't credible enough to me to put into action or
00:05:53 there's these great lines in T.S. Eliot's poem The Wasteland you know and I'm
00:06:00 paraphrasing but it's like between the idea and the action lies the shadow
00:06:05 between the conception and the practice between the idea and the deed lies the
00:06:11 shadow. What is the shadow? What is the shadow? Nobody gets too mad at you if you
00:06:18 only think things. They get mad at you if you act upon them and they get even more
00:06:24 mad at you if you inspire others to act upon them. The ideas themselves are rarely
00:06:30 attacked until they start to change things in the world and I think we all
00:06:36 get a deep kind of instinct about that that philosophy is tolerated as long as
00:06:43 it's merely manipulating abstractions that don't change anyone's behavior in
00:06:49 the real world at least in detectable traceable ways. So when ideas do become
00:06:57 manifest they become dangerous right if ideas about integrity and virtue
00:07:04 actually start to manifest in behavior then they anger the corrupt and the
00:07:11 exploiters and when you harm the interests of the corrupt and the
00:07:18 exploiters what do they do? Well they harm you back right? I mean they fight
00:07:22 back obviously right? So to dabble in abstractions to hold abstractions as
00:07:34 mental Lego playthings that do provide clarity and do provide value and do
00:07:39 provide understanding between that and actually living your values is the
00:07:44 shadow. It's the desert, it's the canyon, the chasm, the void. Atheists say I don't
00:07:54 believe in God and therefore religious morality is false but we want to be good
00:08:02 okay so then you know according to that theory they are like people who have
00:08:08 said we're in a desert and the morality promised by religion is actually a
00:08:16 mirage right? It's a mirage, it's not real. However we still need to drink as human
00:08:22 beings we still want to be good so religion, we're desperately thirsty
00:08:30 religion and its liquid is a mirage. Our thirst remains desperate. I come along
00:08:38 with bottle after bottle of chilled clear tasty water called UPP.
00:08:49 Desperately thirsty religious water is a mirage. Here comes Steph the philosopher
00:08:55 with actual water we can drink. Now if somebody was desperately thirsty had
00:09:03 given up chasing mirages and you came to them with water what would you expect?
00:09:06 You would expect them to grab the water from you with enormous gratitude and
00:09:10 drink deep and greedily. I mean that's what you would expect right? If somebody
00:09:16 says I'm absolutely starving I'm faint with hunger and my favorite food is mac
00:09:23 and cheese the way my mama used to make it and you say wow you know I happen to
00:09:27 have a heated bowl of your mother's mac and cheese right here what would you
00:09:30 expect them to do? They were faint with hunger, desperately needed to eat and you
00:09:36 had their favorite food right there with you what would you expect them to do? You
00:09:40 would expect them to grab a spoon or and dig in and and be very grateful for what
00:09:50 you had provided to them free of charge.
00:09:53 So when people behave in incomprehensible manners, if people behave in ways that
00:10:04 reason would never predict
00:10:08 what do we do? What can we do? What makes any sense at all? People say I'm dying of
00:10:21 thirst I'm desperate for water you give them water they pretend that you're not
00:10:24 there. Someone says I'm half starved this is my favorite food you bring them their
00:10:29 favorite food and they continue to complain about how hungry they are while
00:10:33 ignoring the food. Before then when my mother used physical violence to get her
00:10:41 way and then I used physical violence in self-defense she was shocked and appalled
00:10:44 at my use of force and I get you know I understand it's manipulative isn't that
00:10:51 but it's really quite baffling. How do we explain the world that does the opposite
00:11:01 of what any rational prediction would anticipate, would expect? It's a big
00:11:09 question. It's a big question and again putting myself in this category and I
00:11:17 you know I'm not saying I'm self evaluative which doesn't well and
00:11:23 self-critical but that doesn't mean self-attack right? Self-attack is a way
00:11:29 of bypassing rational criticism by putting yourself in a fight-or-flight
00:11:32 state. You can't reason when you're running from a grizzly and if the
00:11:36 grizzly is self-attack it's a way of avoiding reasoning. Then you end up
00:11:43 managing the self-attack rather than calmly and clearly thinking through your
00:11:47 problems. My therapist, it's interesting, so my therapist was not a
00:11:54 rationalist, was not an empiricist. My therapist, I don't want to characterize
00:11:58 her beliefs because she was pretty good at not transmitting but in general I
00:12:02 think she was mystical on the mystical side, on the Jungian side, on the
00:12:07 unconscious and spirit side. And that was according to rational philosophy
00:12:15 that should not have helped. However it did. A rationalist goes to a
00:12:23 quasi-mystic for advice on life and the quasi-mystic is right. And that wasn't
00:12:31 easy either because what my therapist did was to help me to take what was
00:12:38 going on in my unconscious very very seriously. Your unconscious is in full
00:12:45 revolt. And the funny thing is too is that empiricism, which is the
00:12:52 foundation of reason, that reason arises from the predictable
00:13:00 stability of matter and energy. So what processes the senses? It's not reason,
00:13:07 it's not the neofrontal cortex, it's not the highest seat of reasoning. What
00:13:12 processes the senses is the unconscious, it's the body. So reason is built from
00:13:22 the evidence of the senses and therefore reason is a product of the unconscious,
00:13:31 of the autonomous nervous system. Reason in the mind is a product of the
00:13:35 empiricism of the body. Now the body cannot lie. It's a very interesting
00:13:49 thing. The body cannot lie. Can you open your eyes and not see? Physically, no. I
00:13:58 mean assuming your eyes are working right. Can you open your eyes and not see?
00:14:00 No. You open your eyes, you see. If your hearing works and there's a sound
00:14:04 in the vicinity, can you not hear it? Well you can tune it out after a while,
00:14:07 but if there's a sudden loud noise you're gonna hear it, right?
00:14:10 You're gonna be startled. Assuming again, assuming everything's in working
00:14:15 order, can somebody tickle you and you feel nothing? No. The body cannot lie and
00:14:24 if the body does lie, the body is broken. There's something wrong, right? If you
00:14:30 open your eyes and you can't see, there's something wrong with your eyes. If there's
00:14:34 a loud sound that you can't hear, you've got a problem with your ears and so on,
00:14:38 right? I know someone who has a particular ailment and she can't feel
00:14:44 her feet. So that's how they know there's something wrong. So the body cannot lie.
00:14:51 The body cannot falsify. You can't look at the color red and see green again
00:14:59 unless there's something wrong with your eyes. You look at the color red and you
00:15:02 see red and you, you know, if you question this you can bring the reddest thing you
00:15:06 know and show it to people and they'll all say that's red. So if truth is a
00:15:16 virtue, where do we look for it first? Do we look for it in reason? We do not. If
00:15:20 truth is a virtue, we look for it in the flesh, the body, which cannot lie.
00:15:29 "Thou shalt not bear false witness" never applies to the senses. It applies to
00:15:35 consciousness. So reason comes from the body which cannot lie. Reason can lie.
00:15:46 Reason can lie. Because my inspirations in philosophy were people who lived
00:15:53 their philosophy, yet I was not living my philosophy. I wouldn't say my philosophy.
00:15:57 People who live philosophy were my, like, it wasn't like academics who merely
00:16:01 talked about it, they weren't my heroes. It was the people who actually lived
00:16:03 philosophy who were my heroes. So I had said to my unconscious, "Living philosophy
00:16:08 is what philosophy is." And I would actually openly mock and scorn people
00:16:13 who only talked about philosophy and never lived it. I remember, I think it
00:16:17 was in some objectivist article, maybe Ayn Rand or something was talking about,
00:16:21 in the middle of the 60s, the sort of mystical crisis and the Vietnam War and
00:16:25 so on, the American philosophical, the American philosophical organization got
00:16:32 together and had a big debate about whether nouns existed in reality. And I
00:16:38 laughed and mocked at that, people who only talked about it and didn't do it. So
00:16:42 I said, my unconscious gave me, it's interesting because my unconscious
00:16:48 didn't just give me the tools for reason, like the predictability of matter and
00:16:52 energy and stability, my unconscious also gave me a love of philosophy. It's
00:16:58 important. I mean, you've probably had something where you've had a
00:17:03 switch flipped on somewhere in your mind and you just love something.
00:17:07 When I first saw computers, I was like, "Wow, got to understand these things."
00:17:10 When I first picked up a tennis racket, I loved the game. When I, all these
00:17:16 kinds of things. When I first heard particular kinds of music, it's like, "Ah!"
00:17:19 Some of this musical stuff has sustained itself for decade after decade
00:17:24 with me. Now, I didn't choose to love philosophy. I wasn't reasoned into loving
00:17:30 philosophy. I started reading philosophy and my whole being was like a geyser of
00:17:35 happiness and excitement. And I did it, of course, you know, whatever you do for,
00:17:40 particularly for thousands of hours without getting paid, is probably
00:17:45 something that's kind of important to you. And it's not like, so people
00:17:48 play thousands of hours of video games, but video games are designed to be
00:17:53 addictive and consuming. And they tweak and they use psychologists to make
00:17:58 sure it's as addictive as possible and so on. So that's a little bit more like
00:18:01 an addictive drug. But philosophy is not designed to be, at least the way that I
00:18:10 read it, it wasn't designed to be addictive and exciting and fun. And you
00:18:16 know, it wasn't sold with women in bikinis and macho guys in the jungle
00:18:21 with AK-47s chomping on cigars, you know, it wasn't like an action movie, it
00:18:26 wasn't put forward that kind of way. So when I say, "Oh, I'm a philosopher, I'm a
00:18:31 philosopher," what does that mean? It means that my body gave me empiricism and my
00:18:42 unconscious gave me great pleasure in the presence of philosophy. You see what I mean?
00:18:48 I mean, yes, there's free will, of course, but free will doesn't operate
00:18:54 independent of incentives, otherwise communism would be efficient, right? Well,
00:18:59 I mean, at least in terms of how hard people work, you'd still get the price
00:19:02 problem. I am a philosopher. Okay, what is the I? Well, I am not responsible for the
00:19:09 operations of my senses, that's evolution, and the operations of my senses and the
00:19:14 fact that they work for me gave me empiricism. But, of course, it's not like
00:19:22 the evidence of the senses leads everyone to empiricism, because there are
00:19:26 many people whose senses work who end up not only non-empirical but
00:19:30 anti-empirical. They choose some other realm as the definition of truth rather
00:19:35 than the realm of the senses. But it was, and it wasn't just that I gained joy in
00:19:44 the presence of philosophy, or philosophy provoked joy in my unconscious, it was a
00:19:51 particular kind of philosophy, sort of the, I wasn't interested in the Kantian
00:19:56 stuff, I found it quite repulsive, but it was the Aristotelian stuff, the
00:20:00 objectivist stuff, the Lockean stuff, the stuff that validated the evidence of the
00:20:07 senses and of reason. So, I am a philosopher. My body gave me empiricism,
00:20:14 my unconscious gave me joy in the presence of reason and empiricism. You
00:20:24 understand? There is a certain amount of free will in life, but life also is to
00:20:29 some degree being yanked along by what is happening underneath your reason.
00:20:38 I mean, did I choose to be a philosopher? It's a big question, right? I've
00:20:44 made tons of choices for sure, and I'm not going to deny that, I'm not
00:20:48 going to be, this is not determinism, I've made tons of choices in the realm of
00:20:52 philosophy, but did I choose to be a philosopher? Well, when I grew up with the
00:21:05 madness of mysticism around me, and not just in my family, which of course it was
00:21:11 there, but you know in the culture as a whole, the 70s were gross and mystical
00:21:16 and all this kind of stuff, and all of that. My mom had sort of a procession
00:21:20 of German hippies coming through the place, and yeah, they were all mystical
00:21:27 and spiritual and psychic helmets to defend you against malevolent forces.
00:21:33 There was a lot of mysticism there, and of course I was looking for a way to
00:21:37 survive that, a way to avoid that. So, I saw the hell of mysticism. My body built
00:21:47 for me the basis of empiricism. I didn't choose either of those two things, and
00:21:53 in the presence of rational empiricism in philosophical terms, I felt immense
00:21:59 joy, relief, and eagerness. I did not build that immense joy, relief, and eagerness
00:22:05 myself. That happened to me. And the only way that I would have ended up
00:22:12 rejecting that is if I had a streak of masochism and said, "Oh well, reason and
00:22:16 evidence give me... rational evidentiary philosophy gives me great joy and relief
00:22:20 and eagerness and excitement, so I'm going to never touch it again." That would be
00:22:25 kind of incomprehensible to me. Now, I know I've just talked about
00:22:31 people who say they want something and then do the opposite, but I'm not talking
00:22:34 about that. That would be kind of incomprehensible, wouldn't it?
00:22:37 Rational empiricism gives me great joy to study and read about, so I'm never
00:22:43 going to touch it again. It's kind of like, I'm sure you've gone through this
00:22:46 in your life, right? They call this, Michael Corleone calls this the
00:22:50 "Thunderbolt." You know, you just get hit with this thunderbolt and then that
00:22:53 person becomes your life, right? I'm sure you've had it where you just meet
00:22:56 someone and you just think about them all the time and you're really drawn to
00:23:01 them and all you want to do is spend time with them. Is that a choice? Of
00:23:07 course, you can choose what to do with all of that, but is it a choice to have
00:23:11 those impulses? And so once you have those kinds of deep impulses which
00:23:14 arise from the unconscious and the body for the most part, you can
00:23:20 choose what to do with it, but whatever you choose to do with it, you're not
00:23:24 choosing whether you have something to do, right? So if you're really, really
00:23:28 drawn to person XYZ, you can act on it, you can fight it, but whatever
00:23:34 you do is in reaction to that great thirst and desire for that person. And
00:23:39 that great thirst and desire for that person, yes, it's conditioned by your
00:23:43 prior beliefs and thoughts and habits and so on, but it is something you
00:23:51 have to manage. There's stuff that erupts from the mind that you have to manage.
00:23:56 I mean, we've heard these stories, it tends to be a bit more on the female
00:24:00 side, and whether we agree or not, but with the right or wrong or good or bad
00:24:06 of it, it is nonetheless the case that a woman can wake up after a relationship
00:24:13 of 20 years one day and look at her husband and feel no love. It can happen.
00:24:20 It can happen. I don't think it's random, but so the woman, let's say that for
00:24:27 whatever reason, good or bad, right or wrong, she wakes up after marriage of 20
00:24:33 years, maybe the kids are older, maybe they're in their sort of mid-teens,
00:24:38 whatever, right, she wakes up and she feels no love. She looks at the man and she
00:24:44 just feels kind of contempt or indifference or boredom or eye-rolling
00:24:49 and she just doesn't love him. Now she could say, "Well, I got to talk myself
00:24:56 back into it, I've got to figure this out, I got to find out what I'm gonna do, I'm
00:25:00 gonna stay or leave," or she thinks so. She can choose what to do with what's
00:25:05 happened to her, and that's where the choice is, but she didn't choose that it
00:25:11 happens to her in that moment. Now you can say, "Ah yes, but the accumulated
00:25:16 choices are..." Absolutely, I get all of that. I get all of that.
00:25:22 Why did I revolt against my life of theory but not practice, of studying and
00:25:32 talking about and debating and arguing morality and truth and virtue and right
00:25:37 without actually living it in my life? Well, in part I revolted against my life
00:25:43 because of all of the prior theories that I had put forward. It was, you know,
00:25:52 like, let's use a devilish analogy because I think it's kind of appropriate.
00:25:56 The devil, in a sense, and this is a complete reversal but it's what popped
00:26:02 into my mind so I'm gonna roll with it. Again, you see, I'm just rolling with what
00:26:06 pops into my mind. So the devil said to me, "Hey man, you know, you should really
00:26:11 get into this philosophy stuff. You know, it's fun, it's gonna make you...
00:26:15 You know, there's a little bit of vanity aspect to it. You're
00:26:18 pretty good at it, got a good instinct for it and all of that. That's important
00:26:21 and it's good and it's virtuous and all that. You should really get into this
00:26:24 philosophy stuff, man." And the devil was like, "Do all of that, right?" And let me
00:26:31 dabble for 20 years and then the devil said, "Yeah, now it's time to
00:26:39 collect." And my collection is do or die. You have to do it. You have to do it.
00:26:46 Like, you have to actually live it now and not only do you just have to live it
00:26:51 but you're gonna have to spread it. You're gonna have to promulgate it. You talked
00:26:55 about virtue, now you actually have to live virtue and then you actually have
00:26:59 to practice. You have to preach virtue, not just like from theory to practice to
00:27:04 preaching. And what could I say against that? When you've studied particular
00:27:11 values for 20 years and then your unconscious says, "We have to live
00:27:17 them." What are you gonna do? Are you gonna reject the values? No, that would be
00:27:19 humiliating and cowardly because you can't prove them wrong. I couldn't
00:27:22 disprove my values and I also couldn't disprove the value of living those
00:27:26 values, of actually making decisions in my practical, empirical, real life about
00:27:31 those values. I couldn't just say, "Well, you know, this stuff that..."
00:27:35 Empiricism isn't for action. Empiricism is that you measure the value of
00:27:41 something by action, deeds not words. If there's an injection that's going to
00:27:48 save you from an illness but the needle doesn't penetrate your skin and it
00:27:53 doesn't get into your bloodstream, you're not cured. Right? Because it's the action
00:27:57 that matters. And if empiricism is the validator of truth, right, if I say I'm
00:28:08 holding a coconut but I'm holding a banana, empiricism would check which
00:28:12 fruit I'm holding and tell me whether I'm right or wrong. If empiricism is the
00:28:16 measure of truth, what does it mean if you're not living empiricism? You're
00:28:22 living a lie. What if you're... if you say that the validation of theory is
00:28:27 practice but you're not actually practicing your own theories, then you're
00:28:31 living a lie. The entire basis of everything that I thought in the realm
00:28:35 of philosophy was predicated on proof in action. Proof in action.
00:28:43 It's like this old sales executive who would yell at his sales team, "What are
00:28:48 you in the office for? When you're in the office I know you're not on site with
00:28:52 your clients selling our products. Don't be here. I don't even care if
00:28:58 you go to a coffee shop because at least then I can imagine you're doing
00:29:01 something to sell, but don't be here because here you're not on-site selling.
00:29:05 It was the kind of stuff you had to sell on-site. So if you're going to be into
00:29:12 sales, don't be in the office. Go sell stuff. That's the measure.
00:29:18 Now this, although blindingly obvious in hindsight of course, had not crossed my
00:29:25 mind. It wasn't like I had this idea, "Oh I should really live these values rather
00:29:30 than just study and read and write and talk and debate and I should really live
00:29:34 these values." And living these values, of course, I mean, so I know that that's
00:29:39 kind of abstract. What does that mean? It means making decisions in my
00:29:46 relationships based on philosophy. Right? Right just means that's my
00:29:54 argument, not "Am I right?" What does living your values mean? It means, "Okay, I
00:29:59 have reason and evidence of the highest values and reason and
00:30:05 integrity of the highest virtues, so what should my relationship be with those
00:30:10 who oppose what I define as the good? What should my relationship be with
00:30:14 those who oppose what I define as the good?" Right? Well, philosophy is pretty
00:30:23 easy. If you define your values as virtuous, then people who oppose your
00:30:26 values oppose virtue, which means they're corrupt or immoral or both. And if you
00:30:34 say that you have virtues but you also support and enable those who are immoral,
00:30:42 you are living not only without integrity but with the opposite of
00:30:46 integrity. Without integrity just means you not have any values you judge
00:30:55 yourself by, but if you're living the opposite of your values, that's
00:30:57 corruption. Now, of course, I said to myself over the years, I mean, I knew that
00:31:06 there were problems in the relationship, but I said to myself over the years, "I'm
00:31:09 doing good. It'll take time, but I'm making the case and
00:31:13 people will change over time and they'll get better, they'll listen,
00:31:16 they'll this, that, and the other." I remember debating with my mother about a wide
00:31:20 variety of things and I said, "Okay, okay, you're an empiricist. It's
00:31:26 been 20 years. How's that going?" Right? I mean, if you have a salesman who says,
00:31:32 "I'm just about to close a sale," and they've never sold anything for 20
00:31:36 years, at what point do you say you're just not a good salesman?
00:31:41 Because that's back to empiricism, right? Am I succeeding in improving those
00:31:46 around me? Well, if you need 20 years of evidence, you're not a very good
00:31:51 empiricist, right? I mean, if you had a friend who had started a
00:31:57 business 20 years ago and felt he was about to make money very soon but hadn't
00:32:02 quite got around to it, and you were like a really good businessman at
00:32:06 giving lots of advice over the years but he just couldn't make it work, he'd be a
00:32:09 bad businessman. Like, you wouldn't need 21 years for that. 20 years is enough.
00:32:13 We're not immortal and therefore we don't have forever to make decisions
00:32:17 based upon empirical evidence. I know this is a long answer but I feel
00:32:24 it's really, really important. Eventually, the unconscious gets impatient with
00:32:33 falsehood. Because remember, truth originates from the unconscious, as the
00:32:38 unconscious and the body process the sense data which gives you empiricism
00:32:43 and reason. So the faculties within you that provide you the truth get
00:32:50 frustrated after a while with falsehood. Now, that's one way of putting it, which
00:32:56 is to sort of put me as the whipping boy and the inconstant mere mouther of
00:33:01 platitudes who just didn't want to live it. That's one possibility.
00:33:05 The other possibility goes a little something like this,
00:33:10 which is, look, here's what you need to understand. It's very dangerous
00:33:18 to go from theory to practice. It's very dangerous. And it's
00:33:22 dangerous to your personal relationships to start living philosophy. And if, of
00:33:28 course, by this time, by the time I stopped sleeping and so on, I had
00:33:34 already now, by this point, figured out that I was a really good communicator,
00:33:43 that I had great written skills, that I had a good sense of humor, and that I
00:33:49 could really make a difference. And I had learned that, of course, in theater school,
00:33:53 in university. I went to three different universities. I had learned this in the
00:33:58 business world, giving presentations at conferences and closing deals and all of
00:34:02 that. So I knew at this point that I had made some coin and I had a
00:34:10 sense of how skilled I could be in the communication of ideas. And so I now had
00:34:18 enough empirical evidence to say, look, you can live independent of people
00:34:22 because you've made some money, you know how skilled you are, and therefore that
00:34:26 you could be fantastic in the spread of philosophy. So it could be like, oh, stop
00:34:30 being a hypocrite and live your values. That could be one thing. And maybe
00:34:32 there's this, you know, usually more than one thing. But another thing could be the
00:34:36 empirical evidence is that you should live your values and you should preach
00:34:41 philosophy. That's the empirical evidence. Because, look, if you can sell
00:34:44 millions of dollars worth of software a year, build and sell millions of dollars
00:34:50 worth of software a year, then you can sell philosophy. You can preach. If you
00:34:59 have some financial independence and some competence in that area or region,
00:35:03 then you can survive without these historical relationships. So more like
00:35:11 it's time. And my unconscious didn't sort of get up to me and say, I mean, it didn't
00:35:19 grab my hand because that's not what the unconscious does. It didn't sort of grab
00:35:22 my hand and just write, hey man, you gotta go do this, you know, live
00:35:28 your values, dump anti-moral relationships, go and preach. Right? The
00:35:37 unconscious doesn't do that. I mean, it turned off my sleep because there was a
00:35:44 tension between theory and practice. There was a tension and an opposite. And
00:35:48 the turning off the sleep was the hope, right, that I could live my values and I
00:35:58 could preach, so to speak, and it would work and it would help the world and it
00:36:04 was essential. So after dabbling in philosophy for a long period of time,
00:36:11 philosophy came to collect. Say, okay, you've dabbled, your understanding of the
00:36:18 economy helped you succeed in business, your understanding of human nature
00:36:23 helped you succeed as a manager, but you're not genuinely living your values
00:36:28 and now you can. Maybe you couldn't when you certainly couldn't when you were 10
00:36:31 or 20 or, you know, under the thumb of professors and, okay, fine, you know, we'll
00:36:35 let you dabble. You can dabble for a while, but now it's due. Now it's due. But it
00:36:41 didn't tell me that because I had to realize that myself. And because my
00:36:44 unconscious doesn't give me orders and doesn't tell me what to do, I don't give
00:36:49 people orders and tell them what to do. I had to learn that for myself. And it was
00:36:54 a tough and painful process. It was a tough and painful process to go from
00:37:00 theory to practice and from practice to preaching. TPP. It's my TPP report. Theory
00:37:06 to practice to preaching. And it's dangerous. I mean, we all know this, right?
00:37:13 It's dangerous to go theory, not so bad. Practice, bad personally. Preaching, bad
00:37:20 socially. Very little danger to think things only. Danger at a personal level
00:37:28 to practice things in your own life. Danger at a societal level to preach
00:37:33 things in public. So when you say they use mysticism as a substitute for
00:37:38 reason and evidence and they talk about the spirit and the collective
00:37:41 unconscious and the mystical terms and so on. I don't agree with the
00:37:49 mystical terms because the mystical terms are an answer. The soul, the spirit,
00:37:55 the collective unconscious, God. These are answers and I don't know the answer. I
00:38:03 don't know. And I'm a pretty introspective guy, but I don't know. I
00:38:09 mean, I have theories, obviously, that I had this independence and I had
00:38:13 proven my skills and it was time for me to start living my values. In other words,
00:38:20 there's only a certain amount of time you can study stuff before you become
00:38:23 impatient to do, right? I mean, if you spend 20 years practicing your golf
00:38:28 swing, aren't you at some point supposed to play a game of golf? You know, that
00:38:31 did you get kind of like, God, if people knew you had been practicing your
00:38:35 golf for 20 years, shouldn't you go play some golf? So I've been studying
00:38:38 philosophy and it was time to go live it. And I had passed the test of my
00:38:45 unconscious, so to speak, so I had stuck with it and I had used it to gain
00:38:51 independence and value and some money and it was time to actually go
00:38:57 and start doing it. So what is it? The heart, this is a Pascal, the heart has its
00:39:04 reasons of which reason knows nothing. Now, I don't believe in that because you
00:39:10 can't understand the reasons, but I didn't reason myself into the life that
00:39:13 I have. Certainly not directly. I had to be pushed and cajoled and my, you know, I
00:39:24 have a friend, the guy who actually first introduced me to objectivism, and
00:39:29 he said, "Well, but I know myself perfectly." And I was like, "What? No, that can't be
00:39:37 right. How could you know yourself perfectly? How could, how would we, how
00:39:41 would it be even remotely possible to know yourself perfectly? Or to even know
00:39:44 what yourself is? To even know what yourself is? My thoughts unroll from a
00:39:53 generative state. There was a show I did a couple weeks ago where somebody asked
00:39:57 a question that was so tough, no answer sprang to mind. And I kind of just let my
00:40:05 brain do its thing. And then, and then, what happened? The answer came to me. And
00:40:13 you can see it on the video. Ah! Inspiration, right? Did I earn that? Yeah,
00:40:17 you can say I kind of trained myself and this that and the other, but the reason I
00:40:20 trained myself was because those inspirations happened. I think Freddie
00:40:24 Mercury coming up with the song "Crazy Little Thing Called Love" while sitting
00:40:29 in a bath in Munich, I think he was. The eruption from the unconscious, the dance
00:40:38 between the theory and the practice. It's complex. I don't have the answers. The
00:40:49 answer, to say I have the answers, is to say that the answers are smaller than me.
00:40:54 That I'm the big circle and the little circle inside is the answers. And that's
00:40:58 not humble and that would be a lie for me to say. Sometimes I have the answers,
00:41:03 but a lot of times the answers have me. Sometimes I am in charge and I lead the
00:41:11 answers and they follow me or they lead the, follow me like ducklings follow a
00:41:15 duck. And sometimes I'm like the tail of a kite just hanging on as the answers
00:41:22 rip through me. I mean that's just my honest experience. Sometimes I reason
00:41:26 things through, sometimes there's this wild inspiration that gives me
00:41:29 goosebumps where a kind of seizure provides the answers. And then I, you know,
00:41:33 validate them through reason and all of that. And of course, right? I mean we know
00:41:35 the story of the guy who figured out the nature of the carbon atom by having a
00:41:39 dream of a snake eating its own tail. Okay, so his unconscious gave him a dream
00:41:43 of a snake eating his own tail, eating his own tail, and that's how he figured
00:41:47 out the structure of the carbon atom. I think it was a carbon atom. All right. I
00:41:51 mean the famous story, I don't know if it's apocryphal or not, the story of Sir
00:41:57 Isaac Newton. An apple falls on his head and he gets the whole theory of gravity.
00:42:03 That's a wow. That's a wow. That's the answer that has you. And then of course
00:42:12 you go validate it and you make sure it's accurate and you get all that stuff
00:42:16 right. But yeah, my objectivist friend, oh I know myself perfectly. I'm like what?
00:42:22 How is that even remotely possible? And he has not gone on to a life of great
00:42:29 achievement. But I guess he feels that he knows himself perfectly. So when somebody
00:42:36 seriously uses the terms like spirit and God, I mean I would say unconscious,
00:42:42 I am not alone in here. I mean you know and nobody is right? I mean this is one
00:42:48 of the reasons why the role plays in my call-in shows are so important that
00:42:52 people like instantly flip into other personalities, other characters. I can
00:42:55 flip into being them. Even a little girl who's eight years old, I can model that
00:43:00 or whatever. I can question the parents, they become their parents and so we're
00:43:04 not alone in here. And we are not the authors of our own
00:43:09 impulses. And again you can say yes in the long run for sure the fact that
00:43:14 Freddie Mercury had been practicing music for decades is one of the reasons
00:43:18 why he was able to come up with this kind of song. Yep, great. You know as the
00:43:24 sort of story the 10,000 hours thing goes or whatever like if the Beatles
00:43:27 played Hamburg for two years doing many hours of shows a day and that gave them
00:43:31 a facility with music that helped them write. You get all of that but there were
00:43:33 lots of bands who did that who didn't get that with that. Lots of people work
00:43:37 very hard at stuff and don't end up with that kind of semi divine inspirational
00:43:41 stuff. I don't have a big chart at the beginning of call-in shows of everything
00:43:46 that I want to achieve and do. I couldn't possibly because all I have is a
00:43:52 paragraph and then I spend an hour and a half listening to someone's life. How
00:43:55 could I possibly plot and plan everything out? I have some ideas but a
00:43:59 lot of it is inspiration. The questions are inspiration and sometimes an hour
00:44:05 later I'm like oh that's why I asked that question. Okay am I gonna say that's
00:44:08 totally plotted and planned and the result of my free will and virtue and
00:44:11 dedicate. No. I mean yes I've had lots of practice but you know it wasn't like I
00:44:16 was terrible at the beginning either. So when people use mystical terms for the
00:44:23 source of knowledge and inspiration and so on it's like yeah I don't like
00:44:27 mystical terms because they're an answer to something we don't have an answer to
00:44:30 which is where does all this stuff come from? Where do dreams that can be
00:44:37 incredibly helpful and instructive where do dreams come from? Where do dreams come
00:44:42 from? I had dreams about deplatforming a quarter century ago. Sometimes our
00:44:52 unconscious knows the future that our conscious self denies because it would
00:44:56 make the present unbearable to accept it. It's a really complex dance and real
00:45:03 power comes in letting everyone in your mind have a seat at the table and not
00:45:10 giving them labels and not giving them conclusions. I live in a state of
00:45:15 suspended judgment with regards to my own capacities and my own inhabitants. I
00:45:21 don't know everyone who's down there. I don't know everything I can do. I don't
00:45:25 know every impulse that I have. I don't know the answers to questions. I just
00:45:30 find them fascinating and it feels like not I have the answers but when you ask
00:45:36 such great questions it feels like I'm the first person to hear the answers
00:45:39 where they come from I don't know. I don't know where this specific story and
00:45:46 answer came from. I had a couple of thoughts on reading the question but it
00:45:51 wasn't all of this. Where does all of this come from? Ah well you know but he's trained
00:45:54 before and he knows before and he's had answers before but the reason why I beg
00:45:59 for questions like an addict begs for his drug is that I get to experience
00:46:05 some great answers first and then you get to experience what I hope for you
00:46:09 great answers afterwards. Where do these answers come from? Well the just me. I
00:46:15 don't know that I can say that. It's not the me that reasons in the abstract. The
00:46:23 unconscious is more about the future. Reason and evidence is more about the
00:46:26 past.
00:46:28 And you can use reason and evidence to predict the future but all the
00:46:32 principles are based upon the past. Empiricism by its very definition
00:46:35 builds knowledge based upon past sense data, prior sense data. And again you can
00:46:39 use it to learn things about the future and so on but the generative aspect of
00:46:43 coming up with new things is incomprehensible. The generative aspect of
00:46:53 the human mind of the unconscious is
00:46:58 incomprehensible. Where does everything I say come from? Some of it I know, much of
00:47:06 it I don't. And I am the first to hear these answers that come from place X in
00:47:14 my mind, heart, body, senses, nervous system. It feels almost like a waking
00:47:22 dream to answer some of these questions. I mean be honest I'm just telling you my
00:47:25 direct experience. I don't like to say mystical because that's to say there's a
00:47:32 source that's out there that has no definition. It's like well just say you
00:47:35 don't know. I don't know. When I do a role play I don't know what's going to be
00:47:40 said next. But I enjoy being the first witness to the generation of great
00:47:50 answers and that's what it feels like. That the questions drop into me and the
00:47:57 answers come out. And I manage and I direct and there's a certain amount of
00:48:02 you know but I'm at best the conductor of a wild orchestra. At best who
00:48:09 sometimes listens and sometimes doesn't. And when they don't it's usually for the
00:48:14 best. Where is the source of what I say? What is the source of your
00:48:21 nightly dreams? I don't know. We may never know. Because even the knowing will
00:48:29 change what happens. What is the source of your inspiration? What is the source
00:48:36 of your deepest desires? Why is it that some people can watch someone play
00:48:45 tennis and just say oh that's interesting and other people watch
00:48:47 someone play tennis and like become a professional tennis player. You hear all
00:48:53 these stories of somebody who's like oh you know I never really
00:48:57 thought about dance. My mom took me to a dance show and I was like that's what I
00:49:00 want to do with the rest of my life. Okay where does that come from? Nobody knows.
00:49:06 How many people go to see plays and how many people go to see plays and then end
00:49:13 up with a lifelong desire to be a professional actor? And it's not well
00:49:17 because they have the ability because there's lots of people who want to be
00:49:19 actors who never end up making it or aren't even that good. Why was I so
00:49:26 fascinated by people like Marlon Brando and Freddie Mercury and other people who
00:49:31 mostly in the arts just had a certain kind of passion and excellence and were
00:49:37 really at the top of their field? Well because deep down prior to any evidence
00:49:43 I had some kind of belief or some kind of instinct that I could be the top of
00:49:47 my field and the most important field top of the most important field there is.
00:49:52 Philosophy, reason, evidence, virtue all that kind of good stuff. How did I know
00:49:59 what I could do before I could do it?
00:50:05 That's not empiricism. Potential is not empiricism. I don't know what it is and I
00:50:12 don't know why I felt I could. I don't know why when article publishing and
00:50:19 podcasting first came out I was all over it. I didn't know how big or how powerful
00:50:31 this could become but I was really excited by it so part of me kind of knew.
00:50:40 You know when I after I've been dating my wife for a couple of weeks I just
00:50:44 looked at her climbing a hill when we were hiking and I'm like this is it and
00:50:48 that feeling has never wavered for over 20 years and will never waver until the
00:50:56 day one of us is in a dirt box and either then it'll probably grow like the
00:51:02 remnants of my hair sometime after death. I know. Where do these spontaneous
00:51:09 answers come from? Where does my ambition come from? Where does my excitement about
00:51:13 my potential which is not empirical where does that come from? Well I don't
00:51:19 know and some people prefer to use God or mysticism or soul or the world spirit
00:51:28 or you know this I don't know and I'm not sure that it matters that I do know.
00:51:35 I'm not sure it matters that I do know and for people to say I don't know how I
00:51:42 know I don't know I don't know how I know which questions to ask next in a
00:51:50 call-in show. I don't know how I get questions and know what to say. Say ah
00:51:56 yes well practice and history and experience it's like yes but why would I
00:52:03 have that practice that history and experience unless I could do it to a
00:52:06 large degree to begin with. You know some singer says you know where does my great
00:52:11 voice come from it's like well there's these physical folds in your voice and
00:52:14 blah blah blah you know you know right. Where does this great song I wrote come
00:52:20 from? And every artist will tell you the same thing don't know I mean this is all
00:52:25 the way back to Socrates. Socrates goes to the poets who have great and deep
00:52:28 knowledge of human nature and says tell me the source of your knowledge and what
00:52:32 do they say? I don't know. He said I know it's kind of like an epilepsy that
00:52:36 produces these works of genius. Every artist will tell you the same thing I
00:52:41 don't know. Inspiration hits and you write it down and if inspiration
00:52:50 doesn't hit you got nothing which is why artists you know they have a bunch of
00:52:54 albums that are okay and then I have a couple albums that are fantastic and
00:52:57 then they're mostly done as far as creativity goes and I'm I'm stretching
00:53:01 this out long past its due date right because I think I first started writing
00:53:05 really well in my early 20s now I'm in my mid to late 50s so that's decade
00:53:09 after decade and it's not writing out of habit and it's not airport novels like
00:53:14 the Stephen King stuff. It's quite quality and I think also I'm gaining in
00:53:19 quality as I am certainly aiming to gain in quality. Gaining in quality means
00:53:25 relaxing any inhibitions I have about having peaked right because that's
00:53:31 the kind of thing if you start to really limit yourself because oh this is as far
00:53:37 as I can go this then you start to tense up and you can't so I've just had to
00:53:40 sort of consciously let the ceiling off my potential and say I don't know how
00:53:44 good I can be I'm always gonna aim to be better to be clearer to be more engaging
00:53:48 to tell you something new to tell you something new after close to 20 years of
00:53:55 doing this to tell you something new is so important to me because I then learn
00:54:01 something new which means that I'm not doing the same old same old you know the
00:54:05 people who just give the same speeches over and over again like the Harry
00:54:07 Brown stuff is like I couldn't do it and no disrespect to Harry Brown he's a great
00:54:12 guy but no not for me I'm not I can't play the greatest hits I got to do jazz
00:54:18 I got to do improv I got to do rockin Rio so people have a word for truths
00:54:34 that they cannot map the origins of truths they cannot match map the origins
00:54:41 of they have words for it inspiration a talent God mysticism past lives right
00:54:53 they have many many many words for truth which turns out to be valid for which
00:55:02 they do not know the source I sat down and said I'm not getting back up until I
00:55:07 figure out ethics so a UPB came from I remember the goosebumps that I got when
00:55:13 I realized that rape theft assault and murder could never be universally
00:55:15 preferable behavior but that wasn't a sort of how do you reason that out an
00:55:21 idea that didn't exist before can't come just from empiricism has to be some
00:55:28 magic some flavor some X factor that mixes with your experience to create
00:55:34 something new every painter who paints something has a painting that didn't
00:55:37 exist before where does it come from where does the spontaneous generation
00:55:43 and creativity of the human mind which can then be validated right snake eating
00:55:49 its own tail turns out to be the valid representation metaphorically of the
00:55:54 carbon atom when we know things for which we have no empiricism when we
00:55:59 understand things which there's no explanation what do we call that I don't
00:56:05 know I don't have an answer I'm willing to suspend myself in the I don't have an
00:56:10 answer and I'm not sure it really matters the important thing is not the
00:56:16 origin of the truth the important thing is the validation and promulgation of
00:56:22 the truth it doesn't matter where UPB comes from it matters that a right and
00:56:28 communicated as well as I can it doesn't matter how I know which questions to ask
00:56:35 in a call-and-show or how to formulate responses to live stream questions it
00:56:39 doesn't matter how I know that what matters is how accurate I am and how
00:56:44 well I communicate it and how much it helps people doesn't matter how I know
00:56:50 which question to ask next in a call-and-show it matters how helpful the
00:56:55 call-and-shows are to people and yet we circle back and say well I'm a rational
00:57:02 guy I am an empirical guy I have to know where the source of this inspiration
00:57:05 comes from where does this inspiration comes from but we call it inspiration
00:57:09 because we don't know the source and we can't prove the source because it's not
00:57:13 empirical and it doesn't come from sense data it's generative
00:57:19 your dreams at night do not come from sense data and they are not empirical
00:57:24 because they include in them fantastical unknown elements and people you've never
00:57:28 met do they have a certain rationale to them yes are they rational nope that's
00:57:35 how you know their dreams are they empirical nope they don't rely on the
00:57:40 evidence of the senses ah but they rely on the prior evidence of the senses yeah
00:57:43 yeah yeah of course right this is the question that's fascinated me since I
00:57:49 first read gosh the original novel of the invasion of the body snatchers where
00:57:56 the guy was saying well we can't really create anything new you know we can put
00:57:59 a horn on a horse and call it a unicorn we can put wings on a horse and call it
00:58:04 a Pegasus but but the wings the horn of the horse we've all we just assembly
00:58:07 very can we come up with anything new yes yes we can yes we can and I think
00:58:15 it's because I have a good facility oh sorry good a good faculty for a good
00:58:21 ability I've good rational faculty so I'm jumbling a little up and why did it
00:58:26 jumble there and not anywhere else I don't know and it doesn't really matter
00:58:29 usually things get jumbled when I'm trying to will something where I should
00:58:34 be relaxing and channeling something so not because I also I don't just do
00:58:40 reason I don't just do arguments I don't just do syllogisms but I do
00:58:43 self-knowledge I do history I do some economics of course and I do poetry I've
00:58:49 done plays I act in my audio books in particular I write novels and so the
00:58:56 sort of scope of this generative capacity a lot of people who are really
00:58:59 into reason are very rigid but they're unconscious and don't go fight any kind
00:59:03 of creativity because they view it as destabilizing and anti-empirical a lot
00:59:06 of people who really are creative and generative and so on cast aside reason
00:59:12 in order to further harvest the wild fruit of their creativity I'm really
00:59:18 balancing in the both worlds in the generative creativity and strict
00:59:22 rational evaluation and empirical evaluation of premises and arguments so
00:59:27 I've got really deep feet in both camps so to speak and I think that's kind of
00:59:32 unusual for somebody to be a good artist and a good philosopher it's not
00:59:35 unprecedented but it's kind of unusual so I think when people talk about
00:59:41 mysticism and God and the soul they're saying
00:59:47 stuff's pouring out of me and I don't know where it comes from and I need to
00:59:52 label where it comes from and one of the most powerful things you can do is stand
01:00:00 in the face of a lack of knowledge and say I don't know I don't know and then
01:00:07 people feel that somehow it's not valid if they don't know the source which you
01:00:12 know I understand right I mean if you don't know where the water came from
01:00:18 maybe you don't want to drink it I get that I find it very powerful and helpful
01:00:24 and creative to stand in the fact of the matter that I don't know I don't know I
01:00:31 won't label it I can say inspiration it's a close word but I don't know where
01:00:42 it all comes from I know that I have a intellectual moral responsibility to
01:00:47 validate what comes but I don't know where it comes from and so I think it is
01:00:55 perfectly reasonable to have a conversation about sort of mystical
01:00:59 elements or things in the mind for which we have no explanation for their source
01:01:05 and say yeah I mean you can call it mysticism but mysticism is it is a
01:01:11 metaphysical answer that is not validated it's not valid to say there's
01:01:17 another dimension wherein things pour into my mind or I had a past life and
01:01:20 it's for that doesn't answer anything it's not true it's not valid it's not
01:01:23 provable it's not syllogistic it's not empirical and if we can stand in the
01:01:32 face of a lack of knowledge that's incredibly productive and say what
01:01:35 matters is the productivity not knowing the source because I can't know the
01:01:38 source how could I possibly know where the ideas that I don't know where they
01:01:42 come from come from I mean it's almost all logical right the ideas I don't know
01:01:46 where they come from I need to know where they come from but how would I get
01:01:50 the answer as to where they come from if it's not empirical in other words how
01:01:54 would I get the answer as to where inspiration comes from well it would
01:01:57 have to be inspiration but I wouldn't know where that inspiration comes from
01:02:00 so forget it I'm just not going down that rabbit hole and this infinite
01:02:03 turtles all the way down nonsense no I'm just going to use the gold that
01:02:08 generates to buy people's freedom thank you everyone
01:02:14 freedomain.com/donate if you find these conversations helpful I really look
01:02:17 forward to hearing what you say if you could support what I do I was hugely
01:02:21 hugely appreciated as I dare say so will the future all right
01:02:25 lots of love everyone take care bye