Unpacked by AFAR: S2, E1: Where to Go in 2023

AFAR

In this week’s episode of Unpacked by AFAR, three editors share tips on how, when, and where to travel in 2023.   Read the transcript here: https://rebrand.ly/j8uzykn  Read more about where to go in 2023: https://rebrand.ly/7ewn3pg  Discover more episodes of the podcast here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked  ---- CONNECT WITH AFAR Afar.com is a digital and print magazine that publishes travel tips, guides, news, and stories: https://www.afar.com  Get updates on the latest articles, travel news, and more from AFAR by signing up for the AFAR newsletter: https://afar.com/newsletters  Follow AFAR on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AfarMedia Follow AFAR on Twitter: https://twitter.com/afarmedia Follow AFAR on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afarmedia Follow AFAR on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/afarmedia  ---- CREDITS  Claudia Cardia - Video Editor Elizabeth See - Designer Sarika Bansal - Editorial Director Aislyn Greene - Head of Podcasts ---- Topics discussed:  2:38 - Introductions and how AFAR creates its annual Where to Go List. 5:30 - The places having a moment 21:51 - Giving back to destinations as we travel 32:05 - Family travel 35:28 - Where our editors are traveling next

Transcript

00:00 Hey, you're a thoughtful traveler, and we're a thoughtful destination.

00:07 In Asheville, we treasure our natural and wild places here in the stunning Blue Ridge

00:11 Mountains, and we appreciate visitors who share our values of stewardship and sustainability.

00:16 We invite you to explore the cultural legacy shaped by these high mountain peaks.

00:21 Be our guest.

00:22 Together, we can share adventures and preserve the natural beauty of Asheville.

00:27 Learn more at exploreasheville.com.

00:29 Hi, I'm Sarika Bunsel, Editorial Director here at AFAR.

00:40 And this is Unpacked, the podcast that unpacks one tricky topic in travel every week.

00:46 This week, we're talking about everyone's favorite subject, where to go next.

00:52 AFAR has put out a where to go list almost every January since we launched in 2009.

00:57 In more recent years, the pandemic deeply affected those lists.

01:00 In 2021, we wrote love letters to 12 places we were dreaming of as borders remained mostly

01:05 closed.

01:06 In 2022, we created an ambitious list of 39 places that we were stoked to visit as the

01:12 world reopened.

01:13 But this year, we wanted to go deeper on fewer destinations, the ones that really captured

01:18 our attention.

01:20 We ended up with a Google Doc that was nearly 150 pages long and included destinations from

01:25 the Arctic Circle all the way down to South Africa.

01:28 After months of research and debates, we finally winnowed it down to 12 places.

01:33 In this spirit, I'm joined today by two incredible travel experts who helped make this year's

01:37 list possible.

01:39 Tim Chester, a Deputy Editor at AFAR, and Ashley Halpern, a freelance travel journalist.

01:44 Tim and I reached out to reporters and writers around the world for destinations they think

01:49 are having a moment.

01:50 You can see the entire list in our Winter 2023 print issue of AFAR, which is on newsstands

01:55 now, and online at afar.com/wtg2023.

02:00 It includes cities like Bangkok, Baltimore, Bergamo, and Brescia, as well as more rural

02:05 getaways like Transylvania, Tasmania, and Tanzania's Ruaha National Park.

02:10 We offer ideas for every type of traveler, whether you want to bicycle along Prince Edward

02:15 Island's New Island Walk, eat seafood and listen to music in the Brazilian city of Salvador,

02:20 or appreciate art and architecture in the United Arab Emirates' Sharjah.

02:25 Today I'm going to be talking with Tim and Ashley about all of the places on our list,

02:29 what we learned about them, our predictions for the year, and of course, where we'll be

02:33 traveling next.

02:35 So let's get going.

02:37 Well, hi everybody.

02:40 I'm really excited to be having this conversation.

02:42 I would love to hear from both of you where you are in the world and how it's going.

02:46 Thank you for having us.

02:47 I'm Tim Chester.

02:48 I'm a Deputy Editor.

02:49 And as you said, I'm based in an area called Thousand Oaks, which is a suburb of LA.

02:55 Very, very wet at the moment.

02:56 I've been with AFAR for four or five years now, based in Southern California.

03:01 And as you can tell, I'm a Brit, which kind of surprised some people when they meet me

03:06 for the first time.

03:07 Nice.

03:08 How about you, Ashley?

03:09 Where are you?

03:10 I'm based in Minneapolis, Minnesota, where it's about minus 400 degrees right now.

03:15 My husband and I moved here in 2018 after traveling full-time for four years.

03:20 We were all over during that period.

03:22 And before that, we were in New York City for about a decade.

03:25 Great.

03:26 And I did mention that I'm based in Nairobi, Kenya.

03:29 I've been here for about five years and I've been with AFAR for about a year and a half

03:33 now.

03:34 Actually, the first issue that I worked on when I joined was our where to go for 2022,

03:38 which was a very different where to go list than this year's in that it was a full issue

03:42 takeover.

03:43 It was 39 places, 39 places of where to go around the world.

03:46 From a production process, it got pretty intense because it was a lot with a very small team.

03:51 And this time around, I think for several reasons, we wanted to make it a tighter list.

03:55 Tim, since you and I were both involved in the development of this list, do you want

03:59 to talk about what that process was like for you?

04:01 Yeah, I think part of the reason we had 39 places was we were just so excited as the

04:06 pandemic was evolving and places were beginning to open up to flag all these great places

04:10 that we thought people could travel.

04:11 And it felt like so much possibility and so many options.

04:15 By contrast, this time around, we focused on just 12, 12 destinations.

04:20 Each of these places has many reasons to visit and we wanted to give them space in the magazine

04:25 to showcase a beautiful photography and really dive into why you should go to these places

04:31 over a nice long word count.

04:33 It takes many, many months to come up with a list of just 12 places.

04:37 And last year, we started sourcing pictures from all of our writers and editors across

04:43 the globe back in late spring, early summer.

04:46 We must have had at least a hundred, in the hundreds, ideas and pictures from people.

04:53 And so those are all put into a huge Google Doc or spreadsheet.

04:57 And then we, as editors, try and whistle that down and get that down to a long list of places.

05:03 And that ideally will cover a big geographical spread and a number of types of place from

05:10 cities to outdoor adventure.

05:12 You know, we're trying to appeal to a broad range of travelers.

05:15 And then finally, through lots of discussions and conversation, we get that down to the

05:19 final 12.

05:20 Yes, yeah, for sure.

05:22 It was a very, very big Google Doc that we were going through.

05:26 I do want to touch on two things that you mentioned.

05:29 One is all of the places that we chose definitely are having a moment this year.

05:34 Like there is a why now hook, because sometimes I look at these lists and I'm just like, what

05:39 are the reasons why these places are chosen?

05:41 Like I think that that was an important differentiating factor for us.

05:44 And the other thing you mentioned was how there are a lot of cities in this list.

05:50 And I think that was something that was very different from last year's because of the

05:54 pandemic and how it's been evolving.

05:56 Even when we did feature cities, we featured ways to enjoy them in the outdoors, in the

06:00 open air.

06:01 And I think that being able to instead talk about places that you could enjoy for their

06:05 culture, for their music and other things that I think a lot of people have been really

06:10 missing over the last few years.

06:12 Definitely.

06:13 You mentioned before that in previous years list, there was a focus on the great outdoors

06:18 and social distancing.

06:19 And this one was a little bit more about coming together in cultural spaces and over a meal

06:24 in a restaurant or at a concert, a gig.

06:28 And in terms of the why now hook, I think some places there's an obvious raft of new

06:33 hotels or the restaurant scene is taking off with new chefs and some of the others.

06:39 Graz in Austria is a good example where there's just a sort of spirit of entrepreneurship

06:45 and community and there's a vibe that's evolved over several years and kind of coalesces into

06:50 a moment.

06:51 Absolutely.

06:52 And Ashley, we're so lucky to have you join the team to edit six of the 12 stories.

06:58 So just want to hear from your perspective how this process was.

07:03 It was really fun.

07:04 I wasn't involved in selecting the 12.

07:07 So I didn't have to deal with the unwieldy Google Doc with hundreds of ideas.

07:11 I just got to find out what the places were right away and then jump into learning in

07:15 some cases about places I thought I knew well, because I've lived in some of them and others

07:21 that I'd never heard of.

07:23 And I'm bound to butcher the pronunciation on when we start talking about the actual

07:27 list, even though I practiced.

07:30 So it's always thrilling to find out new things to do in places.

07:36 But like Tim said, reasons to go beyond just there's XY new luxury hotel in this place.

07:44 In some cases, it's a lot more subtle.

07:46 It's a really ambitious community oriented tourism launch, say, or a country saying,

07:53 you know what, we're going to recalibrate.

07:55 We shut down during the pandemic, we're going to think about how we want to exist in the

07:59 world moving forward and how we want to advertise ourselves globally as a destination and what

08:04 kind of traveler we want to bring in and how we want that traveler to engage with us and

08:09 our people and our entrepreneurs while they're here.

08:11 And that I think is always exciting to hear about.

08:14 I'm curious, where was it that you thought you knew and it turned out you learned a lot

08:17 more about from the list?

08:19 Well, I was in Bangkok.

08:22 We were based over there for a while.

08:23 We've had a number of different apartments there and used it as a base when we were traveling

08:27 throughout Asia extensively.

08:28 And there's just so much new stuff has opened there since the pandemic and a lot by young

08:33 Thai creatives, which is fantastic to see.

08:36 And also the Great Lakes.

08:38 I live near a Great Lake now and I just did a two and a half week road trip that visited

08:42 four out of five Great Lakes and reading Elaine Glusak, who's based in Chicago, but grew up

08:48 outside Detroit on Lake Michigan, reading her accounts of the Great Lakes and here's

08:56 the world's largest freshwater system, yet so many people overlook it.

09:02 And it's right in our backyard, at least for readers who live in America.

09:05 That's amazing.

09:06 And it really kind of opened my eyes to some of the opportunities on those lakes.

09:09 Yeah.

09:10 I loved how in that piece she was able to talk about the natural beauty of it as well

09:15 as what it means culturally.

09:16 And there's so many towns and cities and how they're all very different from each other.

09:21 And even though you can class them all together as the Great Lakes, they all have such distinct

09:24 personalities.

09:25 Yes, I feel like she was able to get through a lot in that piece that really gave me a

09:30 lot of wanderlust.

09:32 And there's quite a few opportunities to cruise around the lakes too, right?

09:35 That's right.

09:36 That's right.

09:38 And one of the world's longest cruise is starting in Duluth, Minnesota, and it's Viking and

09:42 it's going to run all the way down to Antarctica.

09:44 And it's so cool that it's starting up there on the Great Lakes, going down through a number

09:47 of the Great Lakes, actually.

09:50 I think there's suddenly renewed attention on this area that has been overlooked for

09:55 far too long.

09:56 And it's really cool to see these ships, which are equipped with scientific equipment, the

10:00 way some of the Antarctica expedition ships are, reporting back and helping scientists

10:05 with climate change studies, for example, or looking at the fish populations in the

10:10 Great Lakes.

10:11 And it's nice to see that undercurrent of research combining with your regular leisure

10:16 travel.

10:17 I love how it allows travelers to just have such a deeper, richer understanding of a place

10:23 beyond just, you know, this is a place where I can take pretty pictures and have nice memories

10:27 with my family or friends, but to actually really deeply engage in a place, which is

10:32 something that of course is important to afar and especially to the Where To Go list.

10:36 What were some of the other places that were especially exciting for both of you to work

10:40 on?

10:41 I really enjoyed working on the piece on Transylvania in Romania, which was written by Keith Drew,

10:47 who's an old colleague of mine from Rough Guides.

10:49 We both used to work at the Rough Guides guidebook company in London.

10:54 Obviously everybody knows that area from Bram Stoker's Dracula, but Keith paints a very different

11:00 picture of a place full of wildflowers, alpine meadows, historic homes that date back to

11:06 the 12th century.

11:08 And there's actually a really ambitious rewilding project happening there.

11:12 They're trying to create what they're calling the European Yellowstone, which will cover

11:17 nearly 618,000 acres across the southern Carpathian Mountains.

11:23 I had to hide my credit card and passport when I was reading that, which sounded like

11:27 a great place.

11:29 That's at the top of my list in reading the package too.

11:31 And I didn't work on that story, but I have some Romanian heritage and my husband and

11:35 I have been talking about combining a Poland and Romanian trip.

11:39 He's half Polish and I'm half Romanian.

11:41 And that piece definitely is pushing us over the edge for maybe booking in 2023.

11:46 Oh, that's amazing.

11:47 I feel like that piece particularly got so beyond stereotype.

11:51 And I guess when you think of Transylvania because of Dracula, you end up thinking of

11:58 these dark, really big houses.

12:00 And just to even know that there's so much wild space and so much wildlife as well.

12:05 That was very eye-opening.

12:07 In terms of eye-opening as well, I edited the piece about Sharjah in the United Arab

12:11 Emirates.

12:12 And I thought that was fascinating.

12:14 It's a place I've never been, like the writer points out.

12:17 It's completely overshadowed by its neighbors, Dubai and Abu Dhabi.

12:21 It doesn't have the biggest, tallest, grandest, most epic superlatives that those two cities

12:27 have.

12:28 Yet it has this quiet art scene, art and architecture that's really starting to bubble up to the

12:34 surface.

12:35 And 2023 marks the 15th Sharjah Biennial, as well as the Sharjah Architecture Triennial.

12:42 And the triennial in particular has stuff that actually goes on year round.

12:46 So you can do architecture tours.

12:47 They take you to everything from lesser known neighborhoods to modernist bus stations.

12:51 I just found it all really intriguing that.

12:54 I have a shopping problem and want to go and spend all my money in every souk anywhere

12:58 in the world.

12:59 So that's kind of at the top of my list too.

13:01 What was great about that is that I feel like when people think about the UAE in general,

13:06 it's like it is that glitzy, glammy, really biggest, tallest sort of stuff.

13:10 And I feel like Nicolette did such a good job also of talking about some of the more

13:15 impressive parts of Sharjah in that way.

13:19 And also the souks and the kind of more everyday sorts of places.

13:22 It just painted such a well-rounded picture of what visiting in Emirates could really

13:26 be like.

13:27 One of the pieces that you actually edited, actually, that has inspired me to visit is

13:32 the Salvador in Brazil piece.

13:34 I used to be a music journalist and writer Kayla Stewart's article about the samba and

13:40 photo we have in there of the drum team marching through the streets.

13:43 It just seems like a really fun, vibrant city to immerse yourself in the music.

13:49 Absolutely.

13:50 And during the pandemic, they had the City of Music of Baha'i open in that city.

13:54 And it's a museum that has more than 800 hours of music people can delve into to learn

13:59 more about the genres and sub-genres and the Afro-Caribbean history there.

14:05 It's really rich.

14:06 And also food.

14:08 I think if you're into music or you're into food, this is a place you're going to want

14:11 to go and to be able to celebrate sort of the Black heritage of this area.

14:15 This is a part of Brazil that is 80% Black or mixed race.

14:20 And you see that everywhere you go here, from the names of the streets to the musical celebrations

14:27 to of course, the food.

14:29 And one of the dishes specifically she recommended, I believe it's pronounced moqueca, and it's

14:35 a traditional seafood stew.

14:38 And that sounds incredible.

14:39 She also writes about the shrimp stuffed black-eyed pea fritters, which also sounds great.

14:46 Going back to what you're saying about places where you can really dive into music.

14:49 It wasn't on our list, but I went to Nashville a couple of months ago and they recently opened

14:54 National Museum of African American Music.

14:57 And they have these amazing screens with headphones where you can choose an artist and then go

15:02 through this network of influences, peers and people they've influenced.

15:07 And I spent many hours in there, basically just standing there listening to music.

15:11 And I would recommend that if you're ever in Nashville.

15:13 I love how specific that was.

15:15 And it's like going to that museum in Bahia, I could imagine really learning about something

15:21 and getting so deeply immersed in it.

15:23 I really was glad that we also featured not just Salvador as a place to engage with Black

15:29 culture, but also domestically Baltimore, which has a couple of really cool openings

15:35 and things going on.

15:37 I added the piece about Baltimore and Lexington Market.

15:40 It's billed as the oldest continuously operating public market in the country.

15:44 So it goes back to 1782.

15:46 But in the last year, they've had a $45 million renovation.

15:48 They have more than 40 stalls in there and half of them are Black owned.

15:53 They still have incredible places like you can get your famous crab cakes from Fadley's

15:58 Seafood.

15:59 But, you know, there's a husband and wife run Sunnyside Cafe for breakfast and Black

16:04 Acres Roastery, which is Black owned.

16:06 It's also got these 16 foot tall murals painted by a local artist and then photographs throughout

16:13 the market by Shan Wallace, which depict Baltimore's Black food culture.

16:17 So that's a really cool, important opening in Baltimore.

16:20 And they also have an arena that has undergone a $200 million renovation.

16:25 Pharrell and NBA player Kevin Durant are behind it.

16:29 And so that's going to reopen just in time for college basketball.

16:32 And then I think Bruce Springsteen has a big show there in April.

16:35 A lot of reasons to go to Baltimore right now.

16:37 Yeah, for sure.

16:40 Are there other places that you're especially inspired by on the list?

16:43 I really enjoyed Debbie Olsen's piece on Prince Edward Island, the Canadian province.

16:49 It's a great option if you are into hiking or cycling.

16:53 They just opened a 435 mile route that covers the entire island.

16:59 And Debbie makes a lovely case for traveling more slowly and thoughtfully and meditatively.

17:06 Also intrigued to see what the fish and chips is like there, because obviously that was

17:09 a big staple of my diet growing up.

17:11 And she claims it's one of the best, if not the best, lobster rolls she's ever had there.

17:16 So another foodie meets some sort of exercise type trip.

17:19 Yeah.

17:20 Yeah.

17:21 Although I will say on the exercise thing, it is quite flat.

17:24 And like the Camino in Spain, which this was modeled after.

17:28 So I think it is definitely a lot more accessible to a wider range of travelers.

17:32 And you know, it is, of course, shorter than the Camino in Spain as well.

17:37 So for anyone who's read Anne of Green Gables, it's just like a way to bring all of that

17:43 to life and actually see a lot of the places where the book is based and really experience

17:49 PEI to its fullest.

17:51 You could definitely do sort of bite-sized chunks of it, the route around the capital

17:55 Charlottetown.

17:57 And yeah, you could cycle out or walk out to the sand dunes and visit Prince Edward

18:01 Island National Park.

18:02 And they've got some churches that date to the 1800s.

18:05 There's a sort of interesting, not roadside attractions, but I suppose pathside attractions.

18:11 They have the world's largest handheld egg beater and various other curiosities.

18:17 I like that.

18:19 Yeah.

18:20 I mean, that's worth the trip alone, really.

18:21 To see the world's largest egg beater.

18:24 Actually speaking of oddities, editing this list was the first time I'd heard of the Museum

18:29 of Old and New Art in Tasmania.

18:32 The name sounds very simple, but it sounds absolutely wild.

18:37 That was Tim's piece he edited, but I did a three-week road trip around Tasmania in

18:42 2015, and it's still the best road trip I've ever done.

18:45 And the Museum of Old and New Art, or MONA for short, has been around as long and has

18:48 been just as controversial for as long.

18:50 I remember going there and they had an exhibition where one of the pieces was just a fish bowl

18:55 with a live goldfish in it and a knife in the bowl.

18:58 That was the whole piece.

18:59 And everyone was so upset about it because what if the goldfish touched the knife?

19:04 And that's the kind of art that that place lives to spark discussion around.

19:09 It's such a fascinating place.

19:10 And Tasmania is just like, spread my ashes there.

19:14 It's the most beautiful place on earth.

19:16 And you will hear Australians kind of like, you know, they talk about the way sometimes

19:21 we may maybe make fun of parts of the South or something like that.

19:25 And it's really unfortunate because they are missing out in their own country, unlike one

19:29 of the greatest places on earth.

19:30 But I will be quiet now because it wasn't my piece.

19:34 I like MONA's tagline on their website, "Drink beer, eat cheese, talk crap about art."

19:41 Sounds like a good way to spend an afternoon and very few people from the mainland visit.

19:48 It's surprisingly quiet there, right?

19:50 It just seems like a place that there's just so much experimentation with art.

19:54 It's completely irreverent, but also just with food and drink and has so many ways as

20:00 well to engage with the indigenous culture, which is so great, especially considering

20:05 Australia's history.

20:06 To be able to really celebrate indigenous culture in Tasmania is, I think, just very

20:11 important for any traveler to be able to do.

20:14 Definitely.

20:15 And it's only an hour and 15 minute flight from Melbourne.

20:18 So an easy trip if you're out that way.

20:21 Ashley, what sort of places did you stay in when you visited?

20:24 Oh, gosh.

20:27 We were renting a lot of Airbnbs at the time and kind of making our way.

20:31 We did a huge loop around the island, starting in Hobart and going north along the eastern

20:36 coast from there and then looped around.

20:38 It was an old pump house.

20:39 It might just be called the pump house that has an incredibly long pier that goes out

20:44 on a lake.

20:45 And you wake up in the morning and there's just sort of the fog sitting on the lake and

20:49 you feel like you're in the middle of nowhere and you kind of are because you're in a forest

20:52 on an island at the bottom of the world.

20:54 And that's an incredible feeling.

20:56 And I would go back there in a heartbeat and tell everyone I know who goes to Australia,

21:01 take as much time as you need to make sure you can visit Tasmania.

21:04 Quit your job if you have to.

21:05 It's worth it.

21:07 This piece was written by our digital content director, Laura Redman.

21:12 And I think she's planning to spend a month in Australia this summer.

21:15 The photo of Wineglass Bay on the Freysenet Peninsula makes it look stunning.

21:21 And that's such a great hike.

21:22 Almost half of the island is part of a national park or a World Heritage Area.

21:26 So it's protected as well.

21:28 One thing though, don't go there expecting to see a lot of Tasmanian devils.

21:32 They've had a lot of issues with the population.

21:35 There's been illness in the population they've been trying to recuperate from.

21:38 And I think I had this impression when I first got there that it would be just everywhere.

21:42 They'd be, you know, Tasmanian devil crossings in the streets.

21:45 Now, I actually fully expected that there would be Tasmanian devil.

21:48 So I appreciate your clarification on that.

21:52 So to kind of like step up a level, of course,

21:55 if I was so interested in how travelers can really be aware of sustainability when they

22:01 travel to places and think about how they can use their time ethically when they're

22:05 traveling to new destinations.

22:07 Just wondering if there's anything in this list that really stood out to you in that

22:11 regard about how travelers can be more thoughtful when they are actually getting up and using

22:16 the wanderlust we create to plan a trip to any of these places.

22:19 I think the piece on Ruaha National Park in Tanzania by our Hotels Editor Jen Flowers

22:25 is a good example of that.

22:26 Most people head to the Serengeti.

22:29 So just by visiting this area, you're going somewhere that's less touristed and supporting

22:36 areas that are not overwhelmed.

22:39 She writes about the relationship between the Wildlife Research Institute there and

22:43 the lodges and visitors can get involved with citizen science projects and help with data

22:49 collection from camera traps.

22:51 It's a short piece, but it offers an insight into how travelers can be involved.

22:56 From my list, I was really intrigued by Kambutal, Panama.

23:00 There's a community-based model down there.

23:02 So this is at the tip of the Azuero Peninsula.

23:05 It's in Los Santos, which is already one of the country's least visited provinces.

23:09 There's only one main road heading all the way south, 228 miles from Panama City.

23:14 And then you get this tiny town that sits on the shores of a volcanic black sand beach.

23:19 It's surrounded by waterfalls and jungles.

23:22 There is a new company there called Azuero Adventures, and it was founded by Brian Goldner.

23:28 He was born in Panama, and he hires all local guides, local everyone, to showcase this incredibly

23:34 beautiful and largely untouched area right near Sarajoya National Park.

23:40 It's 80,000 acres.

23:41 There's no direct road entry.

23:42 So guides bring people in on horseback or a four by four vehicle.

23:47 But horseback is their main way to get in there.

23:49 And you see the great green macaw, you see Azuero spider monkeys and other endangered

23:55 species.

23:56 Really, really small scale right now.

23:58 And I think that's so wonderful.

23:59 And they want to keep it that way.

24:00 And they want to keep the focus on the community and make sure everything they're doing and

24:03 everything that they take their guests to, who are already going to be probably pretty

24:07 mindful travelers if they're there in the first place, really showcases the nature and

24:13 the community in this place.

24:14 Yeah, I love that.

24:16 Thinking about how your presence as a traveler can actually benefit a place.

24:20 It is such a two way street.

24:22 It's often easy to just think about like what you're getting as a tourist going to a place.

24:26 And I think when you're going to a place like Cambudal, going to a place like Roja National

24:30 Park, you're actually helping participate in research or helping give jobs to a community

24:35 that may not have them otherwise.

24:37 And really just participate in economies that you're not part of on a daily basis.

24:43 Another one that I think does that well is the Brescia and Bergamo, which were voted

24:48 as the joint capitals of culture in Europe.

24:52 They were hit so hard during COVID.

24:55 And it's amazing to see how these cities have revived and recovered post the pandemic.

25:01 Yeah, there's a lot going on at both and a new cycling route between the two, 47 miles

25:07 past Lake Isio.

25:09 The other one that I was thinking about was Graz in Austria, I mentioned earlier, where

25:13 there's the community spirit and local residents have been opening up the front of their homes

25:18 to sell their own products and homemade soups and crocheted lampshades and drinks.

25:24 Just a very modern spirit of entrepreneurship in a historic city and an easy way for travelers

25:31 to spend their money in the right places and support local communities and get to meet

25:35 people.

25:36 There's a lot of social enterprise there as well.

25:37 There's shops that are helping young people find employment and yeah, a lot happening

25:42 in that place.

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26:48 Maybe we can just kind of transition to talk about more generally 2023 travel.

26:53 What's on the books for both of you and if there's any trends that you are seeing overall

26:58 with travel in 2023?

27:00 After the Southwest debacle, I think there's going to be a surge in sales of Apple AirTags.

27:06 Personally, that's my big prediction.

27:08 Yeah, definitely.

27:10 I mean, that whole Southwest thing, people are going to expect disruption.

27:14 And unfortunately, we've seen the extreme weather we've got here in California at the

27:18 moment.

27:19 I think that's going to increasingly play a part in people's travel plans.

27:23 I mean, our readers, I think, are always interested in more experiential travel, travel that gives

27:28 back and ways to engage more with local communities.

27:31 I'm researching a piece for the magazine, a page called Afar Answers, which is about

27:36 how to make sure your travel money is spent in the right places, choosing locally owned

27:40 hotels, going through tour operators that employ locally and train and empower the communities

27:47 that you're visiting.

27:48 So I think people are more and more interested in that.

27:51 I would definitely advocate a lot more for traveling in the shoulder season.

27:56 I've taken a few trips recently between Thanksgiving and the holidays.

28:00 I went to Fiji last December in that period and a couple of years ago visited Aspen.

28:07 And both places were so quiet compared to how they would have been a week or two earlier

28:11 or a week or two later.

28:13 So I think with travel coming back in full force and the popular places remaining as

28:18 popular as they've always been, I definitely would advocate for finding other times to

28:22 go if you can.

28:24 I'm also a huge proponent of embracing the secondary and tertiary cities.

28:30 Even if you choose only the second or third most populous or most popular city in a country,

28:35 you're going to have an incredible experience, if for no other reason, because so many people

28:39 will be like, "How did you get here?

28:40 Why are you here?"

28:41 And you'll get a more local experience.

28:44 You will have an opportunity not to be so inundated with other travelers and tourists

28:49 in the places you go.

28:51 And I think, at least in my experience, locals are often tickled by that.

28:56 If you show up in a place that often gets overlooked, you know, the Sharjah to Abu Dhabi

29:01 or Dubai, they are really tickled by that and they want to show off the best of what

29:08 they have.

29:09 I had that exact experience a few years ago.

29:11 I went to Italy and I was there for my cousin's wedding.

29:14 And the trip that I planned included going to places like Bologna and Modena and Puglia.

29:21 And this is the height of summer, so of course it's like the height of tourism in Italy.

29:25 And when I met everyone for the wedding, everyone else had gone to the usual suspects, to the

29:30 Rome, Venice, Florence, and were telling me stories about all the lines and how they weren't

29:35 able to get in to see anything.

29:37 And a lot of them are traveling with kids and they were just like, it was hot and they're

29:40 just in a line.

29:41 And meanwhile, I felt like we had the entire run of this beautiful old university in Bologna

29:47 all to ourselves.

29:48 And yeah, I think I experienced a lot of what you're talking about, where you just talk

29:51 to Italian people who are just so thrilled that you're there and often just are more

29:56 excited to engage with you.

29:57 For sure.

29:58 We had that experience and we spent a week in Surabaya in Indonesia.

30:02 And it seemed like we'd been the first Americans to land all year there because everyone's

30:07 like, did you get lost on the way to Bali?

30:09 And it's like, no, we're here to be in Surabaya.

30:11 And people were so stoked and I loved that.

30:13 They were excited for us and we were excited for them.

30:16 And we had an amazing trip because of it.

30:19 And when you read things like, what is it, the Lourve just said they're cutting attendance,

30:23 they're going to cap it at 30,000 people a day.

30:25 Like, oh my goodness.

30:26 I want to go somewhere that gets 30,000 people a month or a year.

30:30 I think that actually is a lot of our list.

30:33 It was very consciously trying to pick places that were the secondary tertiary places.

30:38 I think Ruaha National Park in Tanzania is a really fantastic example of that.

30:43 It's located in the southern part of Tanzania.

30:45 Most people go to the northern to where Arusha is and the Serengeti.

30:49 And those are also absolutely magical and breathtaking.

30:53 And I'm not trying to take anything away from them at all.

30:55 But I do feel like Ruaha sounds like just a completely different experience.

31:00 And to be able to stay at a place like Asilia, which just opened,

31:04 and to be able to help participate with research,

31:06 I think that that is such a different type of safari experience than you typically have,

31:11 where you're just like, you know, shuttled into a safari vehicle.

31:15 You go out for game drives, you come back and that's it.

31:18 I've been looking for popular places at unpopular times of year.

31:23 So last year, I went to Yellowstone National Park in March and Yosemite in February, so in the winter.

31:33 And Yellowstone gets over a million visitors in July and something like 70,000 in March.

31:39 It's a very different experience. There's more bison than people.

31:43 There's no lines of cars lining up to get photos.

31:46 There are some challenges. Some of the roads are shut.

31:49 And we were with a tour group with Austin Adventures.

31:52 They had guides who could pivot when they needed to,

31:55 but it made for a very different experience and very few people.

31:59 Obviously, we're supporting gateway communities and towns like Gardner in Montana.

32:04 There's a positive impact as well there.

32:07 Tim, I remember in one of your FAR answers,

32:09 you also talked about visiting popular places at unpopular times of the day,

32:13 which I thought was really like another cool way to be able to experience a natural wonder,

32:19 man-made wonder of the world.

32:21 Some of that, especially when I was in Rome, was based on having a newborn.

32:25 So I was up before dawn. So yeah, make the most of it.

32:29 How old is your child now, Tim?

32:32 One boy is seven and the twin boys are three.

32:35 My baby is about to turn one in about two weeks.

32:39 And it's funny how much of our whole life obviously was turned upside down,

32:45 but how travel becomes filtered through the lens of your children,

32:48 and not only what they can handle without having a meltdown,

32:51 but just so many places I'm considering going that I never would have before

32:56 because I want to see him engage with it or see his reaction.

33:02 My wings were clipped by the pandemic and by three kids.

33:06 So lots of road trips within a three-hour radius.

33:09 But I can advocate for all kinds of parts of California that I may not have seen,

33:14 the port towns of Oxnard and Ventura near me here and near where I live.

33:19 It's definitely something to be said for exploring a smaller area in more depth.

33:24 For sure. I will say the most adventurous trip that we did,

33:27 when my daughter was eight months old, we went to Mount Kenya.

33:30 Didn't summit because you can't get to that altitude with a baby,

33:33 but we did do a hiking trip around some of the lakes.

33:38 We did have porters that helped us carry our stuff to make it possible.

33:41 So I do want to shout that out for sure.

33:44 But it was incredible because there was one day we hiked like 19 kilometers,

33:48 mostly uphill. Our guides got lost on the way.

33:51 And by the time we got to the campsite, we were all like a bit crabby

33:55 and just looked over at my daughter. And she was just like, I mean,

33:58 of course she was doing no work. She was in the baby carrier the whole time.

34:01 She just had this look of just like awe and amazement on her face.

34:06 And it just sort of actually recalibrated all of us in such a nice way.

34:10 We're like, we're all safe, we're healthy.

34:12 So what that we ended up walking a little extra because we got lost.

34:15 Like we're in one of the most beautiful places in the world and let's just,

34:18 you know, drink that in. And having her there,

34:20 I ended up actually being a really positive reminder of the power of travel is

34:25 and just, you know, what the power of like beautiful places is.

34:29 That's so sweet. We just took, so my son Julian, last month,

34:33 we took him to San Diego. It was his first flight from Minneapolis,

34:36 about four hours. I'm not going to lie and say it was easy.

34:39 It wasn't. My husband spent half of the flight,

34:42 just rocking him in the galley, trying desperately to get him to stop crying.

34:46 He's teething really hard right now. But then we landed that day.

34:50 We drove straight to La Jolla to the most beautiful beach.

34:53 We put him down on sand. His first time seeing the ocean,

34:56 first time being on a beach or being able to crawl period that far,

34:59 because like I said, you know, it's minus 400 degrees in Minnesota right now.

35:03 So he can't be outside crawling in the snow.

35:06 And it just made it all worth it. All the horrendous moments of that flight

35:11 just kind of evaporate. And you see him crawl across the sand.

35:17 And it's like from this moment on, you drank the Kool-Aid.

35:21 You are going to be as obsessed with travel as your parents are.

35:29 Where are you both traveling next?

35:31 So next month, our company meeting is in Portland, Oregon.

35:34 I went there 10 years ago, maybe, and cycled around all the breweries

35:38 looking for sour beer. So I'm looking to see how that's changed.

35:42 And then in March, I'm heading to Belize to hopefully take a kayak

35:46 on the barrier reef they have there.

35:48 Everywhere I go nowadays, I try and find a kayak.

35:51 So La Jolla, the sea caves there, the sea caves right near me here

35:55 in California at the Channel Islands National Park are amazing.

35:59 You kayak into these caves. Some of them are the size of a coffin

36:03 and you have to pull your way through. And the other ones are the size

36:06 of a cathedral. And it's amazing. And kayaked in the swamps of Louisiana

36:11 last year. So yeah, basically anywhere I can take a boat.

36:14 I have to give a plug in the spirit of our Great Lakes piece for kayaking

36:19 around the Apostle Islands National Lakeshore on Lake Superior.

36:23 You can dip in and out of sea caves. And it is incredibly beautiful,

36:27 these sort of pink majestic sandstone cliffs.

36:30 I love it.

36:31 2023, I am in a couple of weeks taking for my son's first birthday.

36:37 We're taking him to the Maya Riviera in Mexico.

36:41 We are starting a tradition in lieu of presents every year,

36:44 we're going to go on a family trip for his birthday.

36:46 We chose the first destination starting at age two.

36:49 If he can articulate where he wants to go or at least point to it

36:52 on a globe, we will try to make it happen.

36:55 And then I'm also in the process of planning a honeymoon plus one.

36:59 My husband and I got married. We've been together 21 years,

37:02 but we got married last summer.

37:05 And so we're trying to figure out where is a great honeymoon with a baby.

37:09 So we are right now between thinking of the Faroe Islands or Scottish Highlands,

37:15 but we're also looking at Oman, Lithuania and Lebanon.

37:18 So if anyone has thoughts on what would make a fun honeymoon with a baby,

37:23 I welcome it.

37:25 I love that list, how dispersed it is.

37:28 (Laughter)

37:30 So as we are wrapping up this conversation,

37:33 I wanted to just thank you both so much for jumping on the phone

37:37 and talking about the whole where to go list.

37:41 You know, my role as editor was really trying to think about

37:46 how do we make sure that we have as much wanderlust as possible

37:49 in all of these places that really makes people want to just read it

37:53 and immediately turn to their partner and say,

37:56 can we go here now?

37:58 And I think that both of you did such a fantastic job

38:01 with making that come to life.

38:03 So I wanted to thank you both for that and for this conversation.

38:06 Thanks for having us.

38:07 And I would give big credit to all the writers as well.

38:10 They wrote some beautiful pieces and laid out why you should go there.

38:14 If you wanted to, going back to what we were saying earlier as well,

38:16 another way to engage with these destinations,

38:18 I think is that time old advice of slowing down

38:22 and not trying to cram too much in.

38:24 A lot of these places warrant a decent amount of time

38:28 and they have a lot to offer.

38:30 And they're not destinations you just fly into for 24, 48 hours

38:34 and zip back out again.

38:36 Yeah, absolutely.

38:37 And I would say even some of the bigger destinations,

38:39 like I think Bangkok is the best example of that

38:41 as one of the world's most visited cities.

38:43 A lot of people do the 24 hour, 48 hour type of trips.

38:46 I hope that our piece shows you that there is actually so much more

38:50 to the city than the sort of usual suspects.

38:53 I beg anyone who is headed to Thailand,

38:56 I totally get the desire to get through Bangkok as quickly as you can,

39:00 get down to the Thai Islands or up to Chiang Mai.

39:02 Don't do it.

39:03 If you only give 24 hour or 48 hours in Bangkok, you'll hate it.

39:07 You'll spend the whole time sitting in traffic.

39:09 It is a city that deserves your time.

39:10 It deserves your love.

39:11 It deserves an opportunity to show you how incredible it is.

39:16 And I say that as someone who used to live there

39:18 and goes back any chance I can get.

39:20 And Catherine Roman, the writer of that piece,

39:23 she did an amazing job capturing that and capturing all the young Thai people,

39:26 opening cafes, galleries, bars, restaurants,

39:29 just making this city a world-class destination unto itself.

39:35 So do a week there, then do your week in the Thai Islands.

39:38 That's my advice.

39:39 Yes.

39:40 I love it.

39:42 How can people find both of you and learn more about all of the amazing work

39:47 that you both do?

39:48 If anyone's looking for me, I'm on both Instagram and LinkedIn.

39:52 My profile is just Tim Chester, which is easy.

39:55 And I am also on Instagram.

39:58 It's Ashley, A-S-H-L-E-A, Halpern, H-A-L-P-E-R-N.

40:02 I used to post a lot more, but now with a baby,

40:05 I try not to overwhelm people with unsolicited baby photos.

40:08 I think baby photos are always welcome, even if they are unsolicited.

40:13 I used to just put up my chihuahua.

40:16 Now it's the baby.

40:17 Your new baby.

40:19 Well, thank you both so much.

40:23 This has been such a great conversation,

40:25 and I can't wait to work together again soon.

40:28 Great. Thank you.

40:29 Oh, thank you.

40:30 It was great working with both of you.

40:31 All right.

40:32 Have a good evening and good day.

40:34 Thanks for listening, everyone.

40:39 If you want to hear more from me, you can find me on Instagram at sarica008.

40:43 And be sure to check out Ashley's website, minnevangelist.com.

40:47 We'll link to everything, including our Where to Go in 2023 list,

40:51 and our show notes.

40:52 This season, we'd also like to hear from you.

40:55 Is there a travel dilemma, topic, or trend you'd like us to unpack?

40:59 Visit afar.com/survey or email us at unpacked@afar.com to share what's on your mind.

41:05 If you enjoyed today's exploration, I hope you'll come back for more great stories.

41:09 You can subscribe to Unpacked on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform.

41:15 And be sure to rate and review the show.

41:17 It helps other travelers find it.

41:20 This has been Unpacked, a production of Afar Media.

41:23 The podcast is produced by Aislinn Green and Nikki Gaujolund.

41:27 Music composition by Chris Collin.

41:29 And remember, the world is complicated.

41:32 We're here to help you unpack it.

41:34 [MUSIC]

41:39 (whooshing)

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