Digital nomadism has been hailed as a way to save communities—and slammed as raising rents and pricing out locals. In this week’s episode of Unpacked, AFAR associate editor of destinations, Chloe Arrojado, explores the complicated ethics of digital nomadism.
Read the transcript here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked/s2-e25-ethics-of-digital-nomads
Discover more episodes of the podcast here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked
----
CONNECT WITH AFAR
Afar.com is a digital and print magazine that publishes travel tips, guides, news, and stories: https://www.afar.com
Get updates on the latest articles, travel news, and more from AFAR by signing up for the AFAR newsletter: https://afar.com/newsletters
Follow AFAR on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AfarMedia
Follow AFAR on Twitter: https://twitter.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/afarmedia
Read the transcript here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked/s2-e25-ethics-of-digital-nomads
Discover more episodes of the podcast here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked
----
CONNECT WITH AFAR
Afar.com is a digital and print magazine that publishes travel tips, guides, news, and stories: https://www.afar.com
Get updates on the latest articles, travel news, and more from AFAR by signing up for the AFAR newsletter: https://afar.com/newsletters
Follow AFAR on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AfarMedia
Follow AFAR on Twitter: https://twitter.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afarmedia
Follow AFAR on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/afarmedia
Category
🏖
TravelTranscript
00:00 As with any community or anything in the world, there are pros and cons and it's messy and
00:04 it's complicated and there's a dark side and there's a light side.
00:07 But I feel like I'm a better person now that I'm nomading.
00:10 I feel like the people I meet are generally living their lives more authentically and
00:16 more ethically.
00:17 And so I feel like nomading has been a net plus for the world in spite of the fact that,
00:22 you know, there have certainly been growing pains.
00:26 I'm Aisling Green and this is Unpacked, the podcast that unpacks one tricky topic in travel
00:33 each week.
00:34 And this week we are exploring the complicated ethics of digital nomadism.
00:39 Our guide for this episode is Chloe Arojado.
00:43 Chloe is an associate editor here at Avar who heads up our destination stories.
00:48 And as you'll hear in a second, she's also a digital nomad.
00:56 Hi Chloe.
00:57 Hey, how are you?
00:58 Good.
00:59 Where are you?
01:00 Where in the world are you?
01:01 I'm actually in New York.
01:03 I'm currently in Harlem in an apartment and yeah, just really enjoying New York summer.
01:10 So basically you're saying right now that you are actively digital nomading.
01:14 Yeah, yeah.
01:16 I'm taking...
01:17 Digitally nomading?
01:18 Yeah, I guess the digital nomading, I use it as a verb.
01:22 Everything can be a verb if you add an -ing.
01:23 Exactly.
01:24 That's what we're doing.
01:25 We're making new words right now.
01:27 Exactly.
01:28 So yeah, I am actively digital nomading, I would say.
01:33 Which is kind of perfect, I guess, for this episode.
01:35 Well, what kind of sparked your interest in this story?
01:38 Before even Avar decided that this was something that we were interested in covering to some
01:44 extent, I was an active digital nomad.
01:48 There was a period of my life where I was living out of my car, traveling across the
01:51 country and then typing articles at Panera Breads in random small towns.
02:00 But it's been, I think, a very interesting ride seeing the rise of things like van life
02:05 and how people are living out their digital nomad dreams.
02:09 Whether that be being in a small town in another country or going to national parks every week.
02:14 I think just the amount of interesting people I've met and then seeing how travel has changed
02:21 has made me really interested in learning more about digital nomadism and how that's
02:26 impacting travel overall.
02:28 Yeah.
02:29 And for this episode, you focus specifically on ethics.
02:33 What has your experience around that been?
02:36 How has that evolved for you as you've nomaded?
02:38 Yeah, exactly.
02:39 Actually, that's a great question because it's not something that I had thought about
02:46 in the ethical sense when I first started doing it.
02:50 I was like, "Okay, I'm just working on my laptop in a coffee shop."
02:54 And then not really thinking broader than that, what that actually means.
02:58 For me, it was visiting other countries.
03:00 For example, when I was in Medellin in Colombia and seeing the extent that digital nomadism
03:06 has impacted communities.
03:08 There's a whole neighborhood called El Poblado, which is basically the hotspot for digital
03:14 nomads.
03:15 And it's very obvious in the way that how much more expensive things are over there
03:20 and when it comes to apartments, foods, the makeup of the community there, a lot of foreign
03:26 expats.
03:27 And seeing, I guess, the different attitudes people had towards digital nomads because
03:32 for them, they were like, "Oh, we're helping the Colombian economy by putting our money
03:36 there."
03:37 And thinking that's the end of the conversation while locals are like, "No, you're actually
03:41 displacing us, raising rents and doing a lot of things that a lot of people, I think, read
03:46 about when it comes to digital nomads."
03:48 Especially because a lot of people who are digital nomads, as you'll hear in the podcast
03:53 episode, do have privileges, whether that be passport privilege or socioeconomic privilege.
04:01 And seeing how that can really change communities, even if in your eyes, you're just working
04:05 on a laptop in a coffee shop.
04:07 There's going to be so much to dig into.
04:09 Well, before I let you go, you have some stories online that are actually offering some concrete
04:14 advice for digital nomads, right?
04:16 Yeah.
04:17 We're going to definitely have some things on whether that be places to look at if you're
04:21 interested in working remotely or intel as to what is exactly a digital nomad, how would
04:27 you define it and kind of getting into that.
04:30 Because sometimes it's like, can be very hard to define as we know in this episode.
04:34 Sweet.
04:35 Well, we will link to all of that in our show notes.
04:37 Well, thank you so much, Chloe.
04:39 Thank you, Ace.
04:40 I'm really excited to get into it.
04:42 Yeah.
04:43 All right, let's go.
04:44 Yeah.
04:45 Woo.
04:46 Picture this.
04:47 You're in Bali, Indonesia, working remotely from your laptop.
04:53 Right outside your window are the calm blue waters and white sands of the beach.
04:58 It's the perfect day to go surfing.
05:01 And you decide you're going to do just that, at least after your Zoom meeting.
05:10 You've probably heard of the not so elusive digital nomad, whether they're creating hotspots
05:15 in Bali and Lisbon or allegedly raising rent prices in Mexico.
05:19 These work from anywhere travelers seem to be all the rage in our post pandemic society.
05:23 I mean, it makes sense considering that working away from the office is now so much more common.
05:29 In 2022, 34% of employed people did at least some of their work at home compared to just
05:36 24% in 2019.
05:38 But what exactly is a digital nomad anyways?
05:42 I spoke with Olga Hananen, a researcher at the University of Eastern Finland.
05:46 Hananen co-authored a 2020 paper that attempted to define this group of workers.
05:51 And as it turns out, the term digital nomad was actually first used more than 20 years
05:57 ago by authors Sugio Makimoto and David Manners.
06:00 They wrote a book called Digital Nomad, and they tried to estimate the pace of technological
06:07 development and how that would influence our life, how that would change our travel patterns
06:14 and the way we accomplish work.
06:17 In that book, Makimoto and Manners actually predicted the remote work situation.
06:22 And it was scarily accurate.
06:24 Listen to this quote from the book.
06:27 With the ability to tap into every worldwide public information source from anywhere on
06:31 the globe, and the ability to talk to anyone via a video link, humans are going to be given
06:37 the opportunity, if they want it, of being global nomads.
06:41 And remember, this book was published in 1997.
06:46 According to Hananen's paper, there are three parts to being a digital nomad.
06:50 First, they're highly mobile professionals.
06:53 Second, they have location-independent jobs.
06:57 And thirdly, they travel on a semi-permanent basis.
07:01 But it's important to remember that there's actually no one agreed-upon set of qualifications
07:06 that makes someone a digital nomad.
07:09 For example, self-employment tech company MBO Partners says digital nomads are people
07:14 who work remotely and travel for various reasons and lengths of time.
07:19 Anthropologist Dave Cook says digital nomads need to visit at least three locations a year
07:25 in order to qualify as one.
07:28 There are some generally accepted similarities and themes, despite the different definitions.
07:33 Usually they are defined as Westerners or Europeans, or in general, holders of strong
07:40 passports.
07:41 So, meaning that digital nomads are coming from the countries that have extensive travel
07:47 possibilities.
07:48 Oftentimes, these people work in sectors like IT, digital marketing, writing, and even
07:53 online teaching.
07:55 As to why someone would want to become a digital nomad, it all comes down to travel.
08:00 Their ability to explore places flexibly makes them a traveler and consumer category all
08:04 on their own.
08:06 So much so that tourism boards are working on special ways to market their city, state,
08:10 or even country to them.
08:11 And several destinations around the world are appealing to remote workers by creating
08:15 digital nomad visas.
08:17 These special visas allow travelers to stay, and more importantly spend, in a specific
08:22 country for months or even years.
08:24 There are more than 20 countries that have developed visa programs specifically targeting
08:28 remote workers, and these programs vary from country to country.
08:33 Colombia's visa invites remote workers to stay for two years, given that they don't
08:38 work for Colombian companies.
08:40 Meanwhile, Canada released its plans for a digital nomad visa in July 2023, actually
08:46 offering to extend a traveler's stay in the country if they land a job with a Canadian
08:50 employer.
08:51 Another country getting in on the action is Croatia, which released its digital nomad
08:56 visa in 2020.
08:58 Their visa allows remote workers and their family members to stay in Croatia for up to
09:01 a year, given that they make around 2,500 euros a month.
09:06 One of the visa's biggest advocates is Lucy Jerkovic, head of the global PR department
09:11 for the Croatian National Tourist Board.
09:14 We're attracting them to a country that has a mild climate, that's well connected, that's
09:18 beautiful in and of itself, that tourists flock to all the time, for them to come and
09:23 enjoy it in the off season when the cost of accommodation is less.
09:27 Croatian cities Dubrovnik and Istria have further appealed to digital nomads with a
09:32 program called Digital Nomads in Residence.
09:35 Usually held over a month, the program puts together cultural activities and workshops,
09:39 encouraging digital nomads to spend time in the destination when it's not flooded with
09:44 tourists.
09:45 What I think we're doing as a tourist board is we're trying to make Croatia more interesting
09:49 in the shoulder season and year round, which digital nomads can also do that, come in the
09:56 spring, come in the fall, come in the middle of winter.
10:01 Yep, even winter.
10:03 Lucy says that in 2022, Istria hosted the program during the first week of December.
10:09 And while it wasn't exactly warm enough for a swim by the coast, the mild weather was
10:13 pretty good for being out in nature.
10:15 So if they come and they stay in December and see that, you know, instead of one restaurant
10:21 in the place being open, there can be two or three, then there's going to be more people
10:26 coming there.
10:27 And I think that will just kind of alleviate the burden in the high peak season.
10:31 And if they're making significantly more money, they have a lot of money to be able to spend.
10:37 So then you're going to be developing products for them to spend it on.
10:41 So it is a way of bringing in money into the systems.
10:44 Croatia's digital nomad visa offers a number of benefits for remote workers.
10:48 One of its biggest being that they're not required to pay income taxes to the Croatian
10:52 government.
10:53 But that doesn't mean travelers are exempt from paying taxes back home.
10:56 Plus, because the country entered the Schengen zone at the beginning of 2023, holders of
11:02 the visa are also allowed free movement throughout this region of 27 countries in Western and
11:07 Central Europe during their year in Croatia.
11:09 All this to say, there are definitely benefits for digital nomads.
11:14 And Lucy, as well as the Croatian government, believe the remote work system has benefits
11:19 for Croatia, too, like culture changing benefits.
11:23 The country has a low population, so which keeps decreasing from census to census.
11:31 That's not good.
11:32 It's a country that's been known for emigrating.
11:34 So leaving the country, bringing people back is also important for longer term demographic
11:39 growth.
11:40 Some of these digital nomads could eventually become full time and taxpaying residents.
11:44 If you're bringing people into the country that explore the country and see it as a good
11:50 place to live and work, they might forego the taxation benefit for that one year and
11:56 they move here permanently, taking the taxes into consideration.
12:01 But what about the not so positive effects of digital nomads we all hear about?
12:05 As foreigners with higher incomes come to stay in a place like Croatia?
12:08 I had to ask Lucy, has there been a lot of pushback from locals?
12:12 I don't think so.
12:13 I think more pushback ends up happening, but that happens to students as well as other
12:18 populations that are residing in cities that tend to be in high tourist areas.
12:24 It tends to be those that want to stay longer term that get pushed out of accommodation
12:29 due to the seasonality of tourism in the country.
12:33 In reality, Lucy says digital nomads are more likely to be on the other side of the issue.
12:38 Like students, they may have trouble finding long term accommodation during the high season
12:42 in popular cities like Dubrovnik and Split.
12:45 They're not the cause of prices going up, even in cities like Zagreb, which rent has
12:50 gone up significantly.
12:53 When they compare to their home countries, they might be paying less than in their home
12:58 countries so they feel like they're getting a deal.
13:00 It might be more expensive than what someone here would be paying.
13:04 So someone local might be saying, oh look, they're bringing the rent up.
13:08 But usually most locals would not be able to pay for the type of accommodation some
13:13 of the digital nomads are targeting anyways.
13:16 Besides a few additional amenities, Lucy said she hasn't really seen landlords charging
13:20 more or transforming their apartments to appeal to digital nomads.
13:25 I think transforming in the sense of giving a desk space, of making sure that there's
13:31 high speed internet available, that it's not just one of those sort of mobile internets
13:37 that they might have put in in the high season.
13:40 Some have invested in those types of modifications, but it's not something that has increased
13:47 the cost or has changed sort of the structure at a significant level.
13:53 [Music]
14:02 Not all communities have seen remote workers as a welcome answer to tourism ills.
14:06 But for that side of the story, you have to travel halfway around the world to the shores
14:10 of Hawaii.
14:13 During the pandemic, Hawaii was one of the states that suffered the most.
14:18 Hawaii is actually highly dependent on the tourism economy and the pandemic just destroyed
14:22 the industry.
14:23 By August 2020, more than one out of six jobs were gone.
14:27 That year, a nonprofit called Movers and Shackas created a program inviting 50 remote workers
14:32 to live in Hawaii for a month.
14:34 The program was a public-private initiative developed by leaders from local businesses,
14:38 like the Hawaiian restaurant chain Zippy's, and government entities like Hawaii's Department
14:43 of Business and Economic Development and Tourism.
14:46 Its main goal?
14:47 Boost Hawaii's economy.
14:49 The idea was, you know, let's bring 50 remote workers, including returning Kama'aina, or
14:55 people who had been born and raised here, to come for a month and experience Hawaii
15:01 in a more authentic way and be able to volunteer with their specific skill sets and expertise
15:10 professionally for local nonprofits.
15:13 That's Nicole Lim, executive director of Movers and Shackas.
15:16 She said that the program was immediately and wildly popular, like 90,000 applications
15:22 for 50 spots level popular.
15:24 There was an incredible interest in this program.
15:29 It was covered by everyone from New York Times to CNN to Wall Street Journal and just nationally
15:35 very popular.
15:36 But Nicole wasn't always so thrilled with the program.
15:39 Before she joined Movers and Shackas, she, along with other locals, protested the idea
15:44 of remote workers coming to Hawaii's shores.
15:46 So a mainland acquaintance had reached out and asked me, "Oh, should I apply for this?"
15:52 And when I looked it up, I was like, "WTF?"
15:56 You know, like, "Why are we bringing tech bros drenched with COVID to Hawaii during a
16:04 pandemic?
16:05 They're going to drive my rent up.
16:06 They're going to destroy the aloha spirit and they're going to harass dolphins, maybe
16:10 monk seals."
16:12 And I felt so strongly about this that I wrote an op-ed in the local daily newspaper here,
16:19 the Star Advertiser, against the program.
16:22 But in an ironic twist of fate, the board reached out and asked if she was interested
16:26 in running the program.
16:28 The opportunity to shape the program made Nicole check her own perspective, not just
16:31 as a Hawaiian resident, but also as a traveler.
16:34 Before returning to Hawaii during the pandemic, Nicole had actually been away for 20 years,
16:39 traveling around the world, living a little bit of what she calls an "eat, pray, love
16:44 meets wild" type of existence.
16:46 Writing her op-ed and then subsequently becoming a part of the Movers and Shakers program kind
16:52 of made her confront the anti-outsider sentiment she felt, especially as she herself had spent
16:57 a good chunk of her life benefiting from the constant exchange of experiences, ideas, and
17:02 connections one can usually find while traveling.
17:04 That us-versus-them tribal mentality, that anti-outsiderism is so innate, like it is
17:11 psychologically programmed, evolutionarily programmed in our brains.
17:16 And it's strong, it's powerful, it's palpable.
17:20 And we have to acknowledge that it exists.
17:23 We can't really deny or repress it.
17:26 And also kind of do that inner work, work through the discomfort, and ask ourselves,
17:31 well, how do we bring newcomers into a community?
17:35 How do we learn and grow from each other?
17:37 And how do we ultimately hold everyone accountable to the community, including ourselves?
17:43 With this first group of digital nomads, Nicole wanted to emphasize the importance of living
17:47 Hawaii's values.
17:49 Values like kindness and compassion, in the spirit of aloha, and kuleana, the reciprocal
17:54 relationship that comes from a person's responsibility.
17:58 And even though she set out to create a community with good intentions, the program participants
18:04 weren't exactly welcomed with open arms.
18:06 It was kind of what I just, what I wrote in that op-ed, like why are we bringing people
18:11 into Hawaii during COVID?
18:13 And they tend to have a lot of money and they're going to like rent or buy places, which did
18:19 happen actually, not necessarily participants in our program, but a lot of remote workers,
18:25 a lot of people from California came and bought places here.
18:29 This is a trend over decades now, but people who are born and raised here can't afford
18:34 to stay.
18:35 And so they move away.
18:37 We became, I think, a lightning rod for that, like a place to put that anger.
18:42 So Nicole got to work, consistently evolving the program to match the needs of the destination.
18:49 With assistance from the University of Hawaii Economic Research Organization, she and the
18:53 program decided to partner with a hotel for their second cohort in 2022.
18:58 Participants shared a floor in the hotel as the program aimed to create a sort of Olympic
19:02 Village style atmosphere.
19:04 The organization shifted the focus away from recruiting remote workers, instead directing
19:08 efforts at helping new and returning residents live and work in Hawaii.
19:12 The program also decided to appeal to local employers and help them retain and empower
19:17 leaders.
19:18 It's kind of like we're a startup, you know, and we're trying to evolve with the world.
19:22 We're always thinking about how can we make the biggest impact on Hawaii.
19:27 For Nicole, the program is all about bringing in talent that can benefit the state in some
19:31 way.
19:32 I think remote workers, like anyone, have an opportunity and a responsibility to their
19:39 host communities, right, to be a part of it, to contribute.
19:44 And I encourage remote workers to do so.
19:47 You know, there might not be like a Movers and Shockers remote worker program that helps
19:52 facilitate that.
19:53 So, you know, you might have to take more of an initiative.
19:56 But like anything, I think, you know, the more you're a part of a community, the deeper
20:01 the experience you have is.
20:04 Lim has learned a lot as the program's executive director and has suggestions for remote workers
20:09 hoping to integrate with the communities they visit.
20:12 First, think about how you're consuming resources in a community.
20:17 Even if you're just staying for a week, ask yourself, what do you have to learn?
20:21 And second, think about how you can give to the community, not just in the sense of money,
20:27 but also in the shared sense of responsibility for the place you're staying.
20:33 It's a lesson that Brent Hartinger and Michael Jensen, a couple from Seattle, have learned
20:37 over the years.
20:38 They've traveled nomadically around the world since 2017, and their newsletter, Brent and
20:43 Michael are Going Places, focuses on their adventures as a gay digital nomad couple and
20:48 has accrued more than 4,000 subscribers.
20:51 While they acknowledge that digital nomads, like them, can create an impact on communities,
20:56 they also feel a lot of the sentiment against digital nomads isn't exactly warranted.
21:00 I feel like some of the backlash against nomading has been so silly because they're comparing
21:07 the world of nomading to some perfect paradise that doesn't exist and that wouldn't exist
21:11 if nomads didn't exist.
21:13 As with any community or anything in the world, there are pros and cons and it's messy and
21:16 it's complicated and there's a dark side and there's a light side.
21:20 But for me personally, I feel like I'm a better person now that I'm nomading.
21:23 I feel like the people I meet are generally better.
21:27 They're living their lives more authentically and more ethically than I think the typical
21:32 American.
21:33 In Brent's eyes, nomading has been a net plus for the world, despite the growing pains.
21:38 As I said, I've drunk the Kool-Aid, but I think that a lot of times the baby gets thrown
21:43 out with the bathwater and people talk about this and they don't know what they're talking
21:47 about.
21:48 They don't talk to local communities like we have.
21:50 They don't know what nomading is.
21:52 They just have vague impressions that they get from Instagram.
21:55 Or they focus on the worst examples of the change.
21:59 Michael even agrees on some of the safeguards governments put in place to stop digital nomads
22:03 from potentially causing problems.
22:05 I 100% support government.
22:07 I support Barcelona for regulating Airbnbs and keeping apartments affordable for people
22:13 who live there.
22:14 Anything the local population wants to do in terms of regarding tourism in their country,
22:19 I think that's great.
22:20 They have the right.
22:21 They should be doing what they think is best for their community.
22:23 To be the type of digital nomads that aren't bad-mouthed on the internet, the couple make
22:27 sustainable tourism a core part of their nomadic adventures.
22:31 Their top tip?
22:32 Don't contribute to over-tourism in popular places.
22:35 We like to live in second and third tier cities, sort of off the beaten track.
22:40 That's where we'll set down for a month or two or three.
22:44 In between those stops, we will go to the big city, the big tourist attraction, we'll
22:49 stay there for a week, and then we'll be tourists.
22:51 They started doing this after their first year on the road.
22:54 They noticed that locals in really popular destinations were frustrated with all the
22:58 tourists, which also made it hard to meet people.
23:02 But leave the hotspots and it's a completely different story.
23:05 You go five feet to either direction off the beaten track and people are so flattered and
23:11 honored you come to stay in their community.
23:13 And then it's really easy to meet local people and they're honored that you're there and
23:17 it's just a better experience.
23:19 Brent and Michael also try to lessen their leakage, which is a measurement of how many
23:22 tourism dollars leave the local economy and instead benefit multinational corporations,
23:27 foreign companies, or even countries.
23:29 For them, minimizing leakage comes in the form of being hyper vigilant when spending
23:33 money.
23:34 They do things like hire local guides and stay at places run by people in the community,
23:38 even if it's an Airbnb.
23:39 But economics aside, one of the biggest ways they've made an effort to become a part of
23:43 the community is by fighting for causes they believe in.
23:46 As a gay couple, what we try and focus on is shedding light on certain discriminations
23:51 that are happening.
23:52 When we were in Istanbul, pride is illegal in Turkey the past five or six years.
23:57 And these really brave young people in Istanbul held pride anyway.
24:02 And we went and attended it and we got, we marched with them and we got tear gassed along
24:06 with them and then we wrote about it.
24:08 So we shared their story.
24:09 For Brent and Michael, community involvement means writing articles about the lessons they've
24:13 learned from the people they encounter, as well as interviewing members of the gay communities
24:17 and the places they visit.
24:19 They say, whatever issue you're passionate about, find a way to support it and find a
24:24 way to do it.
24:25 Maybe you're really concerned with the environment.
24:27 Maybe you're concerned with racial issues.
24:28 Maybe it's equality of women, how women are treated in different countries.
24:32 All kinds of volunteer opportunities you can do.
24:35 But Michael says, don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough.
24:38 You're not going to go out and solve all the world's problems in one fell swoop, but do
24:42 tend a little bit to your corner of the world and you're going to make it a little bit better.
24:45 And if everybody does that, well, things do get better.
24:52 What a great note to end on.
24:54 You know, this idea that we can make a positive impact on the communities that we visit.
24:58 And honestly, even if we're not a digital nomad.
25:01 And as Chloe highlighted throughout the episode, it's almost impossible to fully define the
25:06 ethics of working remotely.
25:08 So much is dependent on the destination and on the perspective.
25:11 We've heard stories about how people can see remote workers as a solution to tourism problems,
25:17 as well as the ways that they can make a destination's problems worse.
25:21 It's a lot to sit with.
25:23 And Chloe also shared that it can be disheartening when communities we visit aren't as welcoming
25:28 as we want them to be.
25:30 But she says, as travelers, we have the power to change perceptions.
25:35 And it really starts with a genuine effort to connect with others.
25:39 If you'd like to test out this lifestyle, we'll share links to some of our digital nomad
25:43 stories in our show notes, including the ones that Chloe mentioned at the top of the episode.
25:49 And you can keep up with Chloe's constantly moving lifestyle on Instagram @heychloek.
25:55 If you'd like to follow Brett and Michael, check out their website and sign up for their
25:59 newsletter at brentandmichaelaregoingplaces.com.
26:03 To learn more about movers and shakas, visit moversandshakas.org.
26:09 And if you're interested in Croatia's digital nomad visa, apply at mup.gov.hr.
26:16 We'll share the full link in our show notes.
26:19 And that's it for this week.
26:20 Thank you so much for listening.
26:22 Next week, we'll be back with another If These Walls Could Talk, our series that explores
26:26 the stories and secrets hotels can tell us about the places we visit.
26:31 We'll see you then.
26:34 Ready for more unpacking?
26:36 Visit afar.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter.
26:39 We're @afarmedia.
26:42 If you enjoyed today's exploration, I hope you'll come back for more great stories.
26:46 Subscribing makes this easy.
26:48 You can find Unpacked on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform.
26:53 And be sure to rate and review the show.
26:55 It helps other travelers find it.
26:57 This season, we also want to hear from you.
27:00 Is there a travel dilemma, trend, or topic you'd like us to explore?
27:04 Email us at unpacked@afar.com.
27:07 This has been Unpacked, a production of Afar Media.
27:10 The podcast is produced by Aislinn Green and Nikki Galteland.
27:13 Music composition by Chris Collin.
27:16 And remember, the world is complicated.
27:18 We're here to help you unpack it.
27:19 [MUSIC PLAYING]
27:23 [MUSIC PLAYING]
27:26 [MUSIC PLAYING]
27:29 [BLANK_AUDIO]