The Sunderland Echo's James Copley and Phil Smith assess the Leeds & Baggies games and women's title run-in, and discuss Matty Young's future.
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00:00 Where does Mike Dodds fit into Sunderland after the summer
00:03 and who's going to be preferred to come in?
00:05 It's a really, really interesting question.
00:07 Ed was encouraged and respected the fact that he said,
00:09 "Look, this isn't exactly how I want the team to look,
00:12 "I don't think the players quite want the team to look."
00:15 (MUSIC)
00:30 Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast.
00:32 James Copley here, joined by Phil Smith.
00:34 Phil, I want to start with Sunderland women
00:37 who have two massive games coming up against
00:39 Charlton and Crystal Palace.
00:42 If they win both of those, they get promoted
00:44 from the Championship to the top division
00:46 in the United Kingdom,
00:48 which is an incredible place to be really.
00:50 Had you asked us if we thought this could happen
00:52 last summer, we probably would have said no.
00:56 It's a monumental achievement by Mel Rae.
00:58 It is, yeah.
01:00 You made it sound very simple there.
01:02 A little bit of context to these last two games,
01:06 obviously they played Charlton on Sunday
01:08 who were third, and then the last game of the season
01:10 they were away at Crystal Palace who are currently top.
01:12 It's fantastic for the division
01:14 and it's going to be a great spectacle really.
01:18 Sunday is a huge game because Crystal Palace
01:20 probably played their toughest remaining game
01:22 other than Sunderland on Sunday
01:24 against Birmingham and beat them,
01:26 which I think was a massive result
01:28 because Birmingham were probably most people's
01:30 favourites for the division going into the start
01:32 of the season. That was a big result for Palace
01:34 which puts them two points ahead of Sunderland.
01:36 They play away at Lewis on Sunday.
01:40 Lewis is second bottom, so they expect Palace to win.
01:43 Realistically, I think Sunderland need to beat Charlton
01:46 at home to then go into the last game of the season
01:49 away at Palace with a two-point deficit,
01:51 basically knowing that they need to win
01:53 and take the title.
01:54 I think Sunday is a huge game.
01:56 I think they probably need to beat a strong Charlton side.
01:59 Having said that, there's absolutely no reason
02:01 I think they can't go and do that.
02:03 They have, as you said, overachieved really all season.
02:06 It's all been about the recruitment to a large extent.
02:09 I think what we've always known is that
02:13 Sunderland are very, very good at producing young players.
02:16 A lot of the team this season, you have the core
02:20 of those young players in place.
02:22 What Mel Rae and Steph Libby did astonishingly well
02:26 last season was just recruit.
02:28 They were obviously given a little bit more latitude
02:30 by the fact that they could hand out some professional
02:32 contracts for the first time, which enabled Mel and Steph
02:36 really to use their contact in the game.
02:38 You look at players like Katie Kitchen, Jenna Deer,
02:41 you could go on and on really.
02:43 It's been a remarkable turnaround.
02:45 I think the nice thing for me is it feels like,
02:49 because a lot of these players are contracted
02:51 for next year as well, I actually feel like even if it doesn't
02:54 happen in the next couple of weeks, and hopefully it does,
02:56 I feel like there's some pretty decent foundations.
02:59 Some of the young players are going to move on
03:02 to professional contracts this summer,
03:04 someone like Katie Watson, for example.
03:06 There's some really strong foundations there.
03:09 Really exciting couple of weeks.
03:11 There's no reason to think that they won't get the job done
03:14 because they've overachieved and proved everybody wrong
03:17 all season.
03:18 I think what's nice is that we can be really enthusiastic
03:21 about next year regardless.
03:23 Obviously, the one other thing we should mention is that
03:25 winning the league doesn't necessarily mean you play
03:27 in the Super League next year.
03:29 Someone will have to earn a license to play in the Super League
03:32 based on investment, facilities,
03:35 and that's going to be a fair piece of work for the club,
03:38 and it's going to require pretty significant backing
03:41 from the ownership.
03:42 I would make that point as well.
03:44 I'm very hopeful that would be the case because they have
03:46 backed the team so far to get to where they were,
03:49 which is why they've been able to recruit those players
03:50 I mentioned.
03:51 Obviously, it's not quite as straightforward as win the league
03:54 and you play against the big teams next year.
03:57 There will be a pretty stringent process in place,
04:00 and hopefully if it does come off, the club will have put
04:04 everything in place to make sure they can go and play
04:06 at that level.
04:07 It feels like the future is pretty bright either way,
04:09 which is nice.
04:10 - Given what we've seen from Kiri-Louis Dreyfus
04:13 and this ownership on and about Sunderland women,
04:16 you would expect him to commit if Sunderland did get promoted?
04:19 Phil, just throw it forward a little bit.
04:21 - You would hope so.
04:24 I think, to be fair, much of that licensing process
04:28 will already have been underway.
04:31 It's something that runs towards the end of the season,
04:33 so all the background work will be getting done now.
04:37 Ultimately, it will be Kirill and Juan who sign off on that,
04:42 if you like, because the reality is that Sunderland
04:46 going into the Super League will be, I would imagine,
04:49 you'd be expecting to incur pretty significant losses
04:51 at that level because of the way the game's changed.
04:55 So it would take a big commitment from the ownership,
04:58 but it's one that they simply have to make because it's one
05:00 where you're speculating to accumulate, really,
05:04 because the entire prospect of the women's side of the club
05:08 will be transformed by being at that level
05:10 when you think of the broadcasting, the exposure,
05:13 and the long term, really, in terms of, A,
05:16 giving the young players in the squad now the chance
05:18 to test themselves at that level is going to stand them in
05:21 really good stead for the future, and also, B,
05:24 in terms of growing the game within Sunderland
05:26 and within the region, having Man City
05:29 Chelsea, Arsenal, these teams come into Wearside
05:32 next season, it's going to be such a huge,
05:36 potentially a huge boost to sort of growing the interest
05:40 in the game, growing the attendances, and that's what
05:42 ultimately will turn it into a sustainable operation
05:45 in sort of 10 years' time, if that makes sense.
05:47 So I'm really hopeful there will be that sort of long,
05:51 is long-sightedness a word? Is that the option?
05:54 I know short-sightedness is a word, I'm not sure.
05:56 - We'll make another word to do.
05:57 - Long-sightedness. Anyway, yeah, I would like to think
06:00 that that will be in place, but I think if Mel Rae
06:05 could hear us, she would be saying, "Hang on, we've got
06:08 two really difficult games to play first, let's not get
06:11 carried away."
06:12 - You mention her there, but a quick word for Mel Rae as well,
06:15 who just continues to be a brilliantly shrewd operator
06:18 at this level. I've lost count of how many rebuilds
06:21 she's had to sort of take on at Sunderland
06:23 with various different factors. We spoke quite a bit
06:26 in the summer, there was high-profile departures
06:28 in terms of Neve Herring, there was players leaving
06:31 Newcastle, maybe slightly worried, obviously Sunderland
06:34 recruited well, but a lot of that is down to her.
06:36 I know the club's sort of operation has expanded
06:39 a little bit, she's got a bit more help now,
06:40 but I think we're really seeing the fruits of that
06:43 and of her expertise, she's superb at this level.
06:46 - Oh, 100%, and you're absolutely right in what you say,
06:50 in the sort of expanded operation. We have definitely
06:53 seen the benefits this season, so some of the more,
06:56 the bigger coaching staff, some of the specialist coaches,
06:59 there's now a full-time goalkeeping coach,
07:02 which you only have to look at what a season
07:04 Claudia Moan's had, for example, to see how these
07:06 little things can make an absolute huge difference.
07:09 But we shouldn't also be under any illusions
07:11 about the fact that while the women's team
07:15 have been integrated behind the scenes at the academy,
07:18 there is obviously still a disparity in funding
07:21 and investment and in resources, and especially
07:24 in recruitment, I mean, the squad has been built
07:26 by Mel Rae and her assistant. It's not the sort of,
07:32 they don't have access to the scouting network
07:34 to the same level of data analysis at all.
07:37 It's about Mel's sort of mouse and about the contacts
07:39 in the game, really, and I don't think anyone
07:42 would disagree with me when I say that Sunder
07:44 have been immensely fortunate to have Mel at the helm.
07:47 - We'll move on to Sunderland men's.
07:50 We've had a draw against Leeds and a win
07:53 against West Brom, Phil, both away from home.
07:56 Both systems deployed by Mike Dodds were five
08:00 at the back. We've seen a little bit of a tweak,
08:02 but really important, I think, to have those performances
08:05 away from home against good opposition.
08:07 It's sort of come full circle for him, hasn't it,
08:09 given his first stint earlier this season
08:14 as interim head coach, but pleasing for those away fans,
08:17 I think, to be repaid with two really strong performances.
08:19 - We do really feel from our sort of dialogue
08:22 with Dodds and our experiences that he's someone
08:24 who does kind of get the club and get the supporters,
08:27 and I think one of the things he was really strong on
08:29 after both games was it's not a time for experimenting
08:34 and ultimately I want to be respectful of the fact
08:36 that even after everything that's gone on,
08:38 we've got two sold-out away ends going up against two teams
08:42 who, let's be honest, if someone hadn't been on it,
08:44 could really have put them to the sword.
08:46 It was kind of encouraging for me to hear him say
08:48 that we do want to be more free-flowing.
08:51 This isn't kind of really where we want to be as a team
08:54 in terms of the set-up and certainly the quality
08:56 and possession, so I think I would have been more concerned
09:00 if he hadn't said that, if you like,
09:02 because I'd be kind of thinking, "Well, that's great.
09:03 "You've got four points, but this isn't really how
09:06 "you're going to get promoted next season."
09:08 So I kind of was encouraged and respected the fact
09:10 that he said, "Look, this isn't exactly how I want
09:13 "the team to look.
09:14 "I don't think the players quite want the team to look up
09:17 "from where we were, especially after the Blackburn game."
09:20 We needed to put a bit of pride in the shirt
09:22 and we needed to give the away fans something
09:25 to be proud of, basically, and Fair Play,
09:28 they've done that.
09:29 And if we're honest, at the start of the week,
09:31 if someone had said, "Four points from Leeds and West Brom away,"
09:34 I actually probably would have not believed that.
09:37 So obviously it's kind of sobering because we all want someone
09:41 to be competing for the top and you don't really feel comfortable
09:44 saying, "Oh, well, if we get a win in the draw, then that's good."
09:47 But objectively, from where it was a good result,
09:50 you've got someone who sort of understands the club
09:53 and understands the expectation and doesn't shy away
09:55 from it either.
09:57 He's not someone who's going to come out and talk
09:59 about the negativity or the pressure from the fan bases,
10:04 which is something that we have heard over the years.
10:07 I think he totally gets that it's a privilege to be leading
10:11 the team and to be part of the area in the club.
10:15 And that's something which I've got a lot of time for.
10:17 Where does Mike Dodds fit into Sunderland after the summer
10:21 and who's going to be preferred to come in?
10:23 It's a really, really interesting question.
10:25 He will stay, I think.
10:28 He was asked by one of the national reporters after the game
10:31 at West Brom about it, and it was probably the most open
10:34 he's been on it, really, just in terms of basically saying
10:37 first and foremost he's going to have a break.
10:41 And then he expects, as far as he's aware, to return
10:44 as part of the coaching staff.
10:46 And I think every indication we've had from the club really
10:49 is that they still want to stick to that plan.
10:53 When Christian Speighton was asked at the Support
10:55 Collective meeting last month about what the plans would be
10:59 for the coaching staff moving forward, he made pretty clear
11:01 that whoever came in would be able to bring someone with them.
11:06 But they would be expected to work with the coaching staff
11:08 that are in place.
11:09 It's very obviously the view of the Sunderland hierarchy
11:12 that for the players and the playing style, it's important
11:15 to have some continuity.
11:17 And it definitely is a fair question about whether some
11:19 of the bigger names or the kind of top-caliber coaches
11:24 would be comfortable coming into an environment with much
11:26 of their coaching staff already set for them.
11:29 I completely get that, and it's a fair argument.
11:32 But the reality is, is I think that Sunderland remain
11:34 very invested in Dodds, and I don't see any scenario really
11:38 in which he's not part of the coaching group next season.
11:42 He has said that he's very comfortable with the fact
11:45 that whoever comes in is going to bring someone with them.
11:48 He said that was never an issue for him.
11:49 Yes, it's not a hard and fast rule that Sunderland
11:51 will retain every promising youngster.
11:53 I do think in pre-season I'd be absolutely stunned
11:55 if we didn't see Matty Young play a few games, to be honest.
12:02 So I think we have a clear idea of what's going to happen.
12:04 I think Dodds will stay as part of a 4-5 strong coaching team.
12:09 The question is whether that has any impact on Sunderland's
12:13 search, and whether it has any impact on who they want to get.
12:17 That's the bit where we have an unknown.
12:19 I don't think we have much of an unknown over Dodds'
12:21 future himself.
12:22 The other thing he said in the pre-match press conference
12:25 was he also - we obviously knew this would be the case -
12:28 but he is in the meetings at the moment, looking ahead
12:30 to the summer, and not the final say by any stretch
12:34 of the imagination.
12:35 I think he'd be the first to tell you that he has very much
12:38 not the final say on things.
12:40 But the fact that his input is being sought and is being
12:44 listened to, and he's feeding into those early recruitment
12:48 meetings and what have you, I think that tells you everything
12:50 you need to know, really.
12:51 Whatever your opinion is on what should happen next,
12:54 Dodds has some tactical mouths, and he has the respect
12:57 of the dressing room.
12:58 Because that Blackburn game, it was a disgrace,
13:01 no other way to describe it, really.
13:03 But you don't get the application that we see in the way
13:07 it leads in the way of West Brom.
13:09 If the coach doesn't have the respect of the dressing room,
13:12 it just doesn't happen.
13:13 There's a lot of speculation about Sunderland's next
13:15 head coach, a lot of lists with potential candidates,
13:18 a lot of talk and a lot of chatter.
13:20 One name I wanted to talk to you about, Phil, is Danny Roel
13:22 at Sheffield Wednesday.
13:24 I think I find him a really interesting character in a sense
13:27 that he's done a really good job at Sheffield Wednesday.
13:29 On the surface of it, when you look at the league table,
13:31 you might think, what's the hype all about?
13:33 But when he took the job at Sheffield Wednesday,
13:35 I don't think they'd won a game or had a couple of points
13:38 or something like that.
13:39 He's got them to within touching distance of staying up.
13:42 He's done a marvellous job.
13:43 And I'm not comparing Sheffield Wednesday's ownership
13:46 to Sunderland's in any way, because I think they are
13:48 very different.
13:49 But he sort of proved to me, as a head coach, that he can
13:52 work under a very specific set of circumstances when required.
13:56 And he is very much a coach.
13:58 And I just wonder if that's an avenue Sunderland will pursue
14:02 or somebody of his ilk.
14:04 Danny Roel would make a lot of sense to me.
14:07 He has what Kirill seems to crave and what his statement
14:11 when Tony Mowbray was sacked seems to crave,
14:14 which is a very, very heavy inverted commas here,
14:17 like an elite coaching pedigree.
14:19 That seems to be Kirill's primary desire, someone who's worked
14:22 in an elite environment.
14:26 And obviously Roel, who's worked with the GM national team,
14:28 worked at Bayern Munich.
14:30 He has that.
14:31 He has an ultra-aggressive playing style.
14:34 Sheffield Wednesday have not almost got themselves out
14:37 of trouble by defending in a low block and nicking set pieces.
14:41 They have a goal.
14:42 So again, that ticks the box.
14:44 And I think what we, because obviously the Sheffield stars
14:47 are a paper in our company, and it's clear from our chatting
14:51 to their writers and reading their stuff and stuff,
14:53 he has a bit of a charisma about him as well.
14:55 So that's kind of what we expect Sunderland to do.
15:01 And so for me, he would be an outstanding candidate
15:05 or someone of a similar pedigree.
15:07 But what we have this reservation, and it's mainly because of what
15:10 happened earlier in the season, is the intent there
15:14 and the ambition there from Sunderland to go and do something like that.
15:17 Yeah.
15:18 Yeah.
15:19 And this question was put to, and all the other stuff as well,
15:23 not just paying the actual compensation, all the other stuff to go
15:26 and make a deal of that happen.
15:27 And we could say, put Will still in a similar category to go
15:30 and get him from the French top tier.
15:33 And the question was put, speaking again, wasn't it,
15:35 that support meeting, and he said, you know, finances would be no object.
15:38 He did say that paying compensation doesn't mean you get a successful manager,
15:42 which is obviously true.
15:43 Yeah, absolutely right.
15:44 That's absolutely right.
15:46 But it's also like, let's be honest, it's not really the point, is it?
15:49 No.
15:50 No, because-
15:51 Because if you can pay compensation, but you don't to get a worse candidate,
15:54 then that's not good.
15:56 That's what all of us is sort of, you know, it's really shaken our sort of,
16:00 like I say, it's shaken the faith in the operation a little bit.
16:04 Again, like to emphasize, it's not saying that if he gets,
16:07 if they're out and go and get someone who's not in work,
16:11 it means they made a cheap appointment and they're not ambitious or whatever.
16:14 It's just like, what I really, really want is to see an appointment
16:18 that matches up with that statement that Kiril Udrej,
16:21 in Christian speaking, made when they sacked Tony Mowbray,
16:23 which they then absolutely spectacularly did not deliver on
16:28 in their subsequent actions.
16:30 Do you know what I mean?
16:31 And that's what we're all looking at.
16:32 And that's why I get a little, that's why I find these discussions,
16:35 it actually be a little bit difficult from our perspective,
16:37 because I can give you an idea of what we think someone's kind of
16:41 going to do based on what they say.
16:43 And that would be absolutely somebody like Danny Rowe.
16:45 But after what happened last time, you just kind of go and,
16:48 but I'm not really sure exactly, you know, what is going on there.
16:51 So it's going to be really interesting.
16:53 But for me, like, if you just ask for my sort of honest opinion,
16:56 I would put Rowe up there as an outstanding candidate,
17:01 actually someone like that I would be really excited by.
17:05 You just don't know, do you?
17:07 Sunderland goalkeeper Matthew Young on loan at Darlington.
17:10 They've avoided relegation from the National League North
17:13 under former Newcastle player Steve Watson.
17:16 A remarkable turnaround.
17:18 Everybody at Darlington, fans, players, management,
17:22 they're all raving about Young and his impact.
17:25 17 years old, Sunderland's goalkeeping position,
17:30 sort of first team position with Anthony Patterson is pretty solid.
17:34 There's a minor question mark in the summer.
17:36 But, yes, just a very, very exciting footballer to have
17:40 and could well go on loan again next season.
17:42 I don't think he's going to play the first team for Sunderland
17:45 any time soon in terms of the next season or so.
17:48 I just think he's a little bit too young, but a massively exciting prospect.
17:51 Yes, really, really, really exciting prospect.
17:53 And I think his development has been pretty rapid, I think,
17:56 over the last sort of year or so.
17:58 What I would say is that I agree with you.
18:00 I think he's unlikely to be sort of a first team player next season
18:03 just because of his age.
18:04 But I think he's pretty likely to be a first team player in preseason.
18:10 So, I mean, I think realistically I can't see Alex Bass
18:13 sort of coming back to the club.
18:15 I would imagine he'll look to move on after a good year at Wimbledon.
18:18 I think there'll be some question marks over Nathan Bishop
18:20 because I think obviously he came into the club
18:22 knowing that he was going to be back to Anthony Patterson.
18:25 But at some point he'll want to go and play.
18:27 So I do think in preseason I'd be absolutely stunned
18:30 if we didn't see Matty Young play a few games, to be honest.
18:34 And I think from Sunderland's perspective,
18:36 there'll be absolutely no need to rush him out the door on a lone move.
18:40 I think you can bring him back in.
18:42 You can train regularly with the first team group.
18:44 You can play. You can go on the trip.
18:46 I would imagine that Spain would be around that environment.
18:50 And then a little bit later as the season approaches,
18:52 you can then take a step back and go, right, what's his level?
18:54 What's the right next move?
18:56 So I think it's just a real good position for Sunderland to be in, to be honest.
19:00 But he is like, you know, the reports from Dalton, as you mentioned,
19:04 that he's had an absolutely massive impact in a difficult scenario.
19:08 And, you know, the National League North is a good level
19:11 and it's a very challenging level for a goalkeeper of his age to go into.
19:15 So it's incredibly exciting for the club.
19:17 And then, you know, we have to give, again,
19:20 we've probably mentioned it a lot over the years,
19:22 but Mark Prudhoe, the sort of goalkeeping guru,
19:27 like his track record is absolutely out of this world.
19:31 - Everybody speaks so highly of that man.
19:35 - Yeah, and his record speaks for itself.
19:37 And it's not just Matt Young either.
19:38 There's some really other talented, really young goalkeepers in the group as well.
19:41 So, yeah, a position of real strength, I think, for Sunderland.
19:45 I think realistically, as you mentioned,
19:47 there's obviously that slight question mark over Paterson
19:49 because somebody could come in for him this summer,
19:51 given where he's at and the progress he's already made.
19:54 I still think even in that situation,
19:56 it might be a little bit too soon for Matt Young.
20:00 I think because obviously, you know, going in,
20:02 even Paterson had a bit of time out in London, near Notts County,
20:05 in the football league before.
20:07 He was very young, obviously, coming to the team in League One,
20:09 but he had played a bit in Notts County.
20:11 And I think he'd be the first to tell you that exposure was really,
20:14 really important for him.
20:16 So I think either a nationally or a football league loan first
20:21 is going to be really important for Young.
20:23 But, yeah, I think the future is really, really bright for him.
20:26 And one of the things we have to say is as well, rightly so,
20:30 we criticise a lot of the decisions that are made
20:32 and the way the season's gone and stuff.
20:34 I do think there are some really exciting signs in the academy at the moment
20:39 and some really good talent coming through.
20:42 And, you know, we have to recognise that as well.
20:44 And I think Young has got a massive chance.
20:46 It's that kind of team, isn't it?
20:48 They nearly beat Man City to the Under-18s league last year.
20:51 And, you know, it's a real – it looks to be a bit of a –
20:55 hopefully they can all deliver on their promise,
20:57 but it looks to be a bit of a gem of a sort of generation, doesn't it?
21:00 When you've got a big Young – I know Mason Cotcher's obviously left,
21:04 but he was another who was in that group as well.
21:08 So, yeah, it's going to be really exciting to watch that progress
21:10 because it feels like there's a handful of them in that team
21:13 who could really do something special.
21:15 Yeah, just to underline your point there, it's really positive as well
21:18 that Sunderland actually have Matt Young on a professional contract
21:21 and they've built that sort of side of the academy.
21:24 Yes, it's not a hard and fast rule that Sunderland will retain every promising youngster.
21:28 We've seen Tony Bell go – Toby Bell, sorry, not Tony Bell – and Mason Cotcher.
21:33 But by and large, the contrast from the Donald and Methven era is pretty stark now.
21:38 You know, I can get into it and you'll be the same
21:41 into a bit of a Sunderland bubble and stuff.
21:43 Every club outside the top six or eight struggles to keep their best young players.
21:49 And even at the very top level, sometimes players switch.
21:52 Do you know what I mean?
21:53 I know in some ways it's a ludicrous comparison, but like Cole Palmer,
21:56 sometimes young players just decide to move.
21:59 They have their own reasons and they want to take opportunities.
22:02 The example we would use, I think, James, would be Josh Robertson's an obvious one
22:06 where he opted to go to Brighton, which was obviously really disappointing
22:10 from a Sunderland perspective.
22:11 But you have to be realistic about the fact that he plays kind of in a similar position
22:15 to Chris Rigg, right?
22:16 So maybe in a year's time, every promising young goalkeeper would look at Matt Young and think,
22:22 "Hmm, you know what?"
22:24 Time to go.
22:25 Yeah, so do you know what I mean?
22:27 So there's always loads of factors that make it happen.
22:29 And I think it is definitely something that is being steadily improving.
22:33 There is a balance because you can't – if you want to keep young players,
22:39 you have to play them.
22:41 And there is a consequence for playing young players.
22:43 And you can't have it both ways.
22:44 You can't have a team full of established players and then expect to keep young players
22:50 when there's no pathway for them.
22:52 So there is a balance, and we all need to be mindful of recognising that.
22:56 At the same time, I think it's fair to say that the balance hasn't been right this year.
23:00 It's been too extreme.
23:02 In a lot of the young players' cases, it hasn't really helped them
23:05 because there's been too much pressure on them.
23:07 And to be fair, I mentioned before about Mike Dodds,
23:10 really interesting speaking about the planning for next season.
23:13 A bit of an indication from him that the penny has kind of dropped a little bit
23:17 behind the scenes and there is a bit of a recognition.
23:19 I know he certainly feels that for much of his tenure, the team has been too young.
23:23 And we're talking someone whose background is in youth development.
23:26 So there's no bigger advocate than him for pushing youth forward.
23:30 But even he sort of said, realistically, to compete at this level,
23:33 there needs to be a bit of a better balance.
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