Kamran Murtaza , Murtaza Wahab Say Naraz....? Murtaza Wahab Reveals
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Kamran Murtaza , Murtaza Wahab Say Naraz....? Murtaza Wahab Reveals
Kamran Murtaza , Murtaza Wahab Say Naraz....? Murtaza Wahab Reveals
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00:00I would like to ask a similar question. You have been talking a lot about the Charter of Democracy.
00:02You also said in our program yesterday that Mr. Khan is the signatory of the Charter of Democracy.
00:06Imran Khan is not the signatory of the Charter of Democracy.
00:08The information that I had, the information that I heard, I had said that if this is not correct, then I can retract it.
00:17The point is that if he is not the signatory, then he is not ethically bound to the Charter of Democracy.
00:22No, by the way, even if they were signatory, they would not have believed in it ethically.
00:29Let's move on to another topic.
00:35Instead of me asking a question, why don't you tell us what are your suggestions for the appointment of judges in the new judiciary?
00:44Look, there is a need to understand the background in this.
00:48I will not take more than 60 seconds.
00:50America, one of the oldest democracies in the world, is a big country.
00:55In it, the president of the United States, the elected president, appoints a judge of the Supreme Court.
01:00And the judge who is nominated has to go to Congress.
01:05Congress interviews him and then either confirms that nomination or rejects it.
01:11This is the way of an established democracy of the first world.
01:15In Pakistan, prior to the 18th Amendment, these powers were absolutely with the President of Pakistan.
01:21And he used to consult with the Chief Justice of Pakistan.
01:25And after that, the appointment of judges was made.
01:28When the People's Party was working on the 18th Amendment, the People's Party tried to mix and match.
01:33As was happening in America.
01:35There was a Judicial Commission and a Parliamentary Commission.
01:38Iftikhar Chaudhary said, no, do it this way.
01:40This is how the jurisprudence was interfered with.
01:43Iftikhar Chaudhary did not say this.
01:45A case was filed.
01:47A case was filed in the Supreme Court.
01:49In that, the Supreme Court said, no, this should not happen.
01:51The result was that the 19th Amendment had to be amended.
01:54And that Parliamentary Commission became toothless.
01:56Now, who does all the appointment process?
01:58The Chief Justice does.
02:00Any member of the Judicial Commission, whether he is a law minister,
02:04whether he is an attorney general, whether he is a member of the Pakistan Bar Council,
02:07he cannot nominate, cannot propose anyone's name.
02:09So, we believe that we should create a balance.
02:12We should create a commission in which there is a majority of judges.
02:16The largest number of judges.
02:18Sitting judges of the relevant court.
02:20Of the relevant court, number one.
02:21On the side of the government, there should be a loyal minister of law.
02:24There should be an attorney general.
02:25On the side of the Bar Association, there should be a member of the Pakistan Bar Council.
02:28If there is an appointment of the Supreme Court, then there should be a member of the Pakistan Bar Council.
02:31And if there is a member of the High Court, then there should be a member of the Provincial Bar Council.
02:36After that, there should be four parliamentarians.
02:38Not of the government.
02:40Two of the treasury and two of the opposition.
02:42That is, the majority should not be with the government.
02:45The majority should not be with Mr. Vukla.
02:47There should be an independent commission.
02:49And that independent commission should look for suitable candidates,
02:52who have good integrity, good reputation, good caliber,
02:56understanding of all things.
02:58They should finalize that decision.
03:00If there is an objection in this, that parliamentarians should not have it,
03:05then I think, I think this is a little disappointing.
03:10Until the institutions do not engage with each other,
03:12do not deliberate,
03:14you will not be able to resolve matters.
03:16If there is a deficiency in this,
03:17if you are saying that by removing the Chief Justice of Pakistan,
03:20or by removing a judge,
03:22a mayor is being included,
03:24a MPA is being included,
03:26by replacing him,
03:27then this is wrong.
03:28But if their biggest number,
03:31probably in that proposal too,
03:33six judges are included.
03:35They will be in the majority.
03:36Absolutely.
03:37Towards the end,
03:38do you think that the next judge of the Supreme Court should not be on the basis of seniority,
03:45but should be from the panel?
03:46After going through the whole process.
03:48There are two opinions in this.
03:50One opinion is…
03:51What is the opinion of the People's Party?
03:52Look, the People's Party thinks that a senior judge should be there.
03:54Okay.
03:55In this…
03:56Okay, you are clear.
03:57Okay.
03:58But remember that this Supreme Court,
04:00in the Lahore High Court,
04:01did not make a senior judge the Chief Justice of the Lahore High Court,
04:04but took the third one.
04:05Again, elevation to the Supreme Court.
04:07When they were elevating people from the High Court,
04:09the senior judges of the Sindh High Court,
04:12were repeatedly bypassed,
04:15and junior judges were taken.
04:16So, we should understand this too.
04:18But your position is that the senior judge should be there.
04:20We have no objection to this,
04:22but we can go ahead with the best solution,
04:25by deliberating on this.
04:26So, the Chief Justice of the Lahore High Court should be there,
04:30and the President of Pakistan should notify on the advice of the Prime Minister?
04:33Yes.
04:34Because you don't have any other way.
04:36Okay.
04:37And can he be a retired judge of the Supreme Court of Pakistan?
04:39He can be a serving judge or a retired judge.
04:41Anyone can be a retired judge.
04:42Anyone.
04:43I can also be a retired judge.
04:44Are you a serving retired judge of the Supreme Court?
04:46No.
04:47There is also a category of a lawyer.
04:48Okay.
04:49So, he can be a senior judge of 40 years.
04:52You should not become one.
04:53I have become a senior judge of 40 years.
04:56And can he be a retired judge?
04:58Is this an example?
04:59He can be a retired judge,
05:01Mansoor Ali Shah,
05:02Muneeb Akhtar,
05:03Saqib Nisar,
05:04Gulzar,
05:05you name it.
05:06This is fixed again and again,
05:09that this reform is person specific.
05:11This is not an extension.
05:12If it was an extension,
05:13then you would have said that this work is being done for a certain person.
05:16So, anyone can be a retired judge.
05:19Now, to move this process forward,
05:23Mr. Bilawal was also saying that
05:25if Mr. Kamran Mursuza Wahab was answering the phone,
05:28then it would not have happened.
05:29So, have you been calling him all day today?
05:32After yesterday's conversation,
05:34when there is no call back,
05:35then I feel that
05:36a person should understand.
05:38Mr. Kamran has not called me yet.
05:40I don't know why he is angry with me.
05:42So, do you want to call him?
05:44How many calls should I make?
05:45How many have you made?
05:46I will give you the phone,
05:47you can see.
05:48I will believe you anyway.
05:49After calling,
05:50I have also sent a message
05:51that if, God forbid,
05:52his number is deleted from my number,
05:54then I will write to him.
05:56Did the message get delivered?
05:57Did you block it?
05:58Yes, it has been delivered.
05:59Okay.
06:00I mean, his location is known.
06:02He is on TV.
06:03In fact, he was on the airwaves at 10.15.
06:05Before that, he was with Mr. Javed Choudhary.
06:07I had to see Mr. Bilawal in Kashif's program today.
06:09Mr. Bilawal said that
06:10he is taking out time for TV,
06:11not for you.
06:12So, why is he angry like this?
06:14I don't know.
06:15I swear to God.
06:16Are you worried about this?
06:17Worried about what?
06:18Is Mr. Kamran coming on TV
06:19and not talking to you?
06:20I will expect that
06:22Mr. Kamran should have called back.
06:24And if he has any objection,
06:25any point of view,
06:26in which he thinks that
06:28he does not agree with our point of view
06:30or the point of view of the government,
06:32then he conveys it on the phone.
06:34He conveys the message that
06:35Murtaza, I am helpless.
06:37I can't do it.
06:38Okay.
06:39I think he is angry at someone.
06:41I don't know.
06:42But I said,
06:43if there is any helplessness,
06:44then tell me.
06:45I have no idea.
06:46But you have tried to contact him even today.
06:48Look, I am still saying,
06:49you should talk about the points
06:51that can be rectified in this bill.
06:55Things can be improved.
06:56Look, one,
06:57an amendment will be put in this.
06:58Yes, last one.
06:59Only one last thing.
07:00Article 199,
07:01Suomoto can't take it.
07:02Yes, yes, yes.
07:03He can't take the High Court.
07:04He can't take it, right?
07:05Yes, yes, yes.
07:06Many people will say
07:07that you have stopped the High Court.
07:08You have made it toothless.
07:09It has taken a decision.
07:10This is the Supreme Court's own judgment
07:11which says that
07:12the High Court does not have the right
07:13to take Suomoto.
07:14And including
07:15the current Justice Mansoor Ali Shah's
07:17decisions,
07:18Muhammad Ali Mazar's decisions,
07:20Saqib Nisar's decisions,
07:22Izzat Ma'ab Hazrat Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhary's
07:25decisions.
07:27So, I think
07:30that anything needs to be thought
07:32with an open mind.
07:34We need to decide
07:36whether the current system
07:37is delivering or not.
07:39If the system is delivering,
07:40then we should approve it.
07:41And if it is not delivering,
07:44then I think
07:45that any conscious parliamentarian
07:48has the right
07:49to try to improve things
07:51for the betterment
07:52of the people
07:53and for the betterment
07:54of this state.
07:55Right.
07:56Kamran Murtaza,
07:57we will ask Rashid Sumro
07:58in the next segment
07:59whether everything is fine
08:00or not.
08:01I will ask him.
08:02Rashid Sumro
08:03was not present.
08:04I don't know
08:05what story he will tell us.
08:06He is coming.
08:07He is coming.
08:08We will ask him.
08:09Thank you very much.
08:10Thank you very much
08:11for your time.