Catch up on the latest political news from across Kent with Oliver Leader de Saxe, joined by Cllr Alex Paterson, the Labour Portfolio holder for Community Safety, Highways and Enforcement at Medway Council and Cllr Mark Joy, the children's lead for the Conservative Group at Medway Council.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to The Kemp Politics Show live on KMTV, the show that gets
00:29Kent's politicians talking. I'm Oliver the Sax and I'm not sure about you, but I'm tired. It's
00:36been a long week here in Medway. Devolution has faced its first delays, a new council budget.
00:43It doesn't make for light reading, to be honest, and no amount of coffee is going to get me over
00:48last night's Medway Park count, where the political who's-whos of campaigners,
00:53councillors and MPs, past and present, gathered in a sports hall for the most fun you can have
00:58there without actually doing any sports. And that's counting ballots. It was quite a shocking
01:03result. Many heads were turned over in Rochester. And it makes sense that I'm joined by Labour
01:08councillor Alex Patterson, portfolio holder for community safety, highways and enforcement at
01:13Medway Council, and Conservative councillor Mark Joy, the group lead for children's services.
01:19But first, three council seats up for grabs. One in Gillingham South, the other two in
01:25Rochester and Warren Wood. But what actually happened? And why is it turning so many heads?
01:30Here's everything that you need to know from the count. The dust has settled on a difficult night
01:36for Labour here at Medway Park, with their council majority cut to a margin and two new reform UK
01:45councillors seizing historically Labour ward seats. It's hard to believe that in this same room last
01:53summer, former councillors Neshaba Khan, Lauren Edwards and Tris Osborne were all elected to
02:00Parliament on a Labour clean sweep. But in these by-elections, brought about by their decision to
02:07step down to focus on their work in Westminster, partial defeat seemed even harder for the party
02:16to comprehend. As boxes flowed in and votes began to be tallied,
02:22Gillingham South gave Labour an early glimmer of hope.
02:36But with reform seizing around 500 votes amidst low turnout in the ward,
02:42it wasn't just relief the newly elected councillor was feeling.
02:48It is worrying. Yeah, it is worrying, but we'll see.
02:53But Rochester and Warren Wood was where the real drama was taking place.
03:12But even that last minute recount couldn't stop the inevitable.
03:27People are realising that we need change and they realise that the other two parties can't deliver
03:33so we are reforming, we are that change that they need.
03:38We hope to bring change. We're going to bring change.
03:42And for the other parties, expectation management was the first priority.
03:47Reform won tonight by a handful of votes. There was a handful of votes between us and them. So
03:53from my perspective, look, it is disappointing. I want to win every election I contest. Of course
03:59I do. But I recognise tonight we've been just falling slightly short on that.
04:03The future for Medway politics is now uncertain. Labour may still have a working majority,
04:10but with reform emerging as a new political force in the five towns,
04:16Labour face a long road back to the heights of that now distant general election night.
04:22Oliver leaves the sacks for KNTV in Gillingham.
04:26A big night here in Medway and I'm joined by Alex and Mark.
04:31Alex, I want to go to you first because given the highs of the general election
04:35last summer and given the fact that you were won by election many, many years ago now,
04:40how do we have a situation where a relatively safe
04:43Labour ward seat ended up turning turquoise last night?
04:47Well, look Oliver, it's a horrible result. What I would say is it's only the second time
04:53there's actually been an election on those boundaries. The former seat of Rochester East
05:00is now part of a bigger seat which includes a huge chunk of what was the safely Conservative
05:06Rochester South and Halstead, which I actually fought even more years ago than I care to
05:13think about as what was essentially a paper candidate. So, you know, it's not quite the
05:19surprise that you might think.
05:21You mentioned that there is a Conservative element there,
05:24but Rochester East has been Labour consistently since 2003.
05:32That's not great for Labour in that area, is it?
05:34Well, look, it's horrible. I am a Rochester East and Warrenwood resident and I'm afraid that the
05:41idea of reform councillors representing me fills me with absolute horror. I sort of look back on
05:49this though, I've got a bit of perspective, I'm a little bit older than you. In 1993,
05:55a BNP councillor was elected in Tower Hamlets and I remember how sickened that made me feel,
06:02living 400 odd miles away. And the next day I went out and joined the anti-Nazi league and I wanted
06:08to do something that could counter that sort of rise of the far right. And I think that that's
06:15what I would say to people who wake up this morning, my neighbours who have woken up this
06:19morning horrified. There was a very low turnout and actually what I would take heart from is,
06:25yes, 800 of our neighbours decided to back a party which is essentially selling people a lie
06:33and solutions which are not going to solve anyone's problems and certainly not the ones
06:37that they've identified. But actually, there's 9,000 people and more who didn't vote for them
06:43yesterday and who perhaps will be able to reflect on whether they used their vote wisely
06:49for other progressive parties or whether they voted at all. And I think that's the hope that
06:54I would take from that. Well, obviously, reforms say they are a voice of change and it wasn't a
06:59particularly great night for the Conservative Party either. I believe they only got a total
07:03of 1,241 votes across both seats. Mark, what do you make of this? Are you worried at all by this
07:11result? Well, as you said earlier, both of them seats, Rochester East has been staunchly Labour,
07:19Gillingham South has been staunchly Labour. We compete, every time we go out we compete.
07:27But our percentage of our vote, even though it was a lower turnout, still stayed. So we didn't
07:34really go any further backwards. Reform came in. There's die-hard Labour supporters that when
07:41they're not happy then they won't come to us. And on the doorstep, we were having Labour supporters
07:47saying they were going to vote, save, support reform because not happy with this administration
07:53and not happy with the government, even though it's only been in just over six months. So it's a clear
07:59message that things need to be done differently and it's the message that we're aware of and
08:07we're doing stuff differently and a part of our job is holding the administration to account.
08:13And we will continue to do that and we'll keep striving forward to the next election when
08:17hopefully more Labour councillors are no longer on this administration. Because are you not worried
08:22that because reform says the end of this two-party political race, that they're offering a voice for
08:29change. Does this mean that the Conservatives who were in second place, they're no longer the ones
08:34to watch when it comes to elections like this one at a local level in Kent? Well it'll all depend
08:40really because at the moment they're saying we're going to offer change, but what does change
08:45look like? They've now got, from what I'm hearing, they've got three reform councils in the
08:50Medway council. They said they're going to stop any increase in the council tax. Well they're going
08:55to get their first opportunity to try and do that come the end of this month. And people will
09:02see, well is this the change they want? And two-party policy has not been. Labour, if we look at Labour
09:10just over 100 years ago, didn't exist. You go before then, it was two-party politics. It was
09:15the Whigs and the Tories and that was it. And then they become the Conservatives and Liberals and
09:19then Labour came in. And we've had other parties, the Greens have come in. So it's not two-party
09:25politics. They're trying to make it out that way and now they've got to deliver. So that's the
09:31difference on it. Because obviously it's going to be an interesting couple of months now with
09:36local elections over the border for Kent County Council. And I do wonder if the results last night
09:44reflect something nationally, because the polls at the moment kind of have it as a three-horse race.
09:50Labour on 24%, Reform 25%, Conservatives 21% according to YouGov. Electoral calculus, similar story.
09:58What do you make of this? Do you think that the failures of your party on a national level have led to the situation here?
10:05I think that there's certainly a national element to this. If 800 votes in Rochester, East and
10:14Warrenwood is the high watermark of some sort of reform tide, well then I think we can
10:21live with that. But I do think the Conservative Party have to share some of the responsibility for
10:28unleashing this sort of intemperate strand of right of centre and far-right
10:35politics. Their leader has indulged in some pretty nasty rhetoric and she's not the first in a
10:42long line of recent Conservative leaders who have tried to ride that horse. And I'm afraid it's
10:50not worked out well for them and I think it's actually taken this to a very dangerous place
10:54in our politics. And what I would also say is the people last night who voted for a reform,
11:02they didn't vote to privatise the NHS and that's what Nigel Farage has committed to doing.
11:06Nigel Farage is not here to defend himself but I want to bring you in for the break.
11:10What do you make of that? Is this the wilderness years for your party?
11:13No, I don't think it's the wilderness years. You're right, Conservatives needed to change
11:18and that was a clear message that delivered in July. We've elected a new leader
11:24she's new into the role, elected towards the end of the year, so she's only been in for three
11:28months. She's coming out with some policies which we're fully supportive of. The big issue is and
11:36the reason parties like Reform and Fordham UKIP came forward is because the governments are not
11:42listening about... And I think we may have to end on that point. I'm sure we could talk about
11:46by-elections all day long but we have more to talk about after the break. Stick around
11:51for more about the budget.
15:08Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show live on KMTV, the show that gets Kent's politicians
15:13talking. I'm still joined by Labour councillor Alex Paterson, the portfolio holder for Community
15:18Safety, Highways and Enforcement at Medway Council and Conservative councillor Mark Joy,
15:23group lead for Children's Services also at Medway Council. Now you know what goes in hand in hand
15:28with sleep deprivation and by-elections? That's right, council budget preparations. Medway Council
15:33faces an £8 million overspend and once again runs the risk of effective bankruptcy. Well our
15:40local democracy reporter Gabriel Morris caught up with Vince Maple earlier this afternoon to discuss
15:45cash rather than councillors. We've got financial challenges, that's well documented. We're working
15:52our way through the plan to get to financial sustainability. That's meant some difficult
15:56political decisions and that includes levels of council tax and some of the fees and charges
16:01that will be going up this year. That's not again easy decisions but everybody in Medway
16:06rightfully deserves their council to have financial sustainability and that's what we're
16:10building in as we move forward. This year's budget in particular we're absolutely focusing
16:14on those key core issues which are not just challenges for us in Medway but across the
16:19country. Adult social care, children's social care, special educational needs and disabilities
16:24and homelessness and temporary accommodation. Well Alex and Mark still join me in the studio. Mark
16:30this is kind of your area of specialties and children's services and all of these kind of
16:34issues are what's compounding Medway Council's budget problems because obviously they say
16:41it's taking up around three quarters of Medway's budget to support the costs of these growing
16:47issues surrounding children and adult social care. What do you make of this? Do you think there needs
16:51to be more support for local councils like Medway because it's something we're seeing everywhere
16:56including over the road at KCC. It's not just a Labour and Medway issue. No but with the funding
17:03over time it's been pushed more and more funding's pushed onto the councils by government
17:11Vince and the rest of the Labour group blame the previous government. We've had a change of
17:15government, same old story, there's only so much it's in the pot. Adult social care used to come
17:24under the NHS budget and that comes under council services. The money's not come with it. Children's
17:29services since the pandemic we've seen increased numbers of children requiring special educational
17:38support. Not always with an EHCP, some of them require extra but the funding's not there. The
17:45need for specialist placings in schools it's not there. The last government approved for a new free
17:52school for special educational needs and there was going to be a build at Cornwallis. This new
17:58government has suspended that so we're spending a lot of money sending children outside of Medway
18:05to make sure that we meet our legal obligations of providing them with a suitable education and it is
18:13unsustainable. The funding's not there to support it. Alex what do you make of it? Is there a passing
18:17the buck most metaphorically and literally here? Well look let's look at the facts. Over 14 years
18:23under the Conservatives Medway's revenue support grant was cut by 91%. Compare and contrast that
18:30with a government that's been in Whitehall since July last year which has already delivered a better
18:37funding settlement for councils like Medway and in particular 11 million pounds extra is what that
18:43amounts to. It's only an extra 11 million, it's not putting in that gap. And that's absolutely, you know,
18:49the point you raise is a good one because while the income from government might increase,
18:55the need increases and the costs increase as time goes on as well. So yes, there's clearly
19:01a 14-year failure to keep pace with the costs can't be remedied overnight but I'm really
19:10pleased that it's a step in the right direction and what we've also had from the Secretary of State
19:14is a commitment to move towards multi-year settlements because we've been going cap in
19:19hand year in, year out to various Secretaries of State. You know, the previous Conservative
19:26administration were unable to... Shake your head there Mark. Well the previous Conservative administration
19:31in all those years that they were in charge with a Conservative government failed to deliver a
19:36better deal for Medway. They presided over that 91% cut in the revenue support grant which was
19:42which went without a peep from them and I think actually we're now seeing change. The change
19:48that we've heard so much about today is actually happening. So Mark, what would you make of this?
19:5291% is doing smoke and mirrors. This Labour administration and this Labour government
20:00continuously smoke and mirrors. The cost spending of council has gone up year on year. That 91%
20:05included funding from business rates. That's now done in a different grant. So the grant formulation,
20:11yes 91% has gone on that but what it was back when it was 91% more was completely different
20:18to what it is today. Well Mark's very brave in saying that now that Alan Jarrett is no longer
20:23the leader of the council. I didn't hear you say that when Alan Jarrett was citing these figures.
20:26These are not my figures, they're his. Our leader George Perfect has made it quite clear that
20:32grant no longer exists. So there's plenty of cash in local government now?
20:37Cost spending has gone up year on year. To be fair, that's what the budget seems to indicate
20:43in the briefing earlier today. That increase in cost of adult social services and children's
20:47social services is increasing year on year. Would the revenue support grant, are you suggesting
20:53that that would have covered that increase? There's clearly local government finance
20:58is built on foundations of sand. It's really important, we'll get onto this later, but all this
21:03talk about local government reorganisation and devolution has to be a reset moment for local
21:09government fundamentally in terms of actually reflecting the true cost that we bear, the cost
21:16of adult social care, the cost of looking after children, the cost of sand. It's really important
21:21that we do that and I don't think any Medway resident would say that that was a waste of money
21:26but it's money that we don't have. Alex, I'm glad you brought up devolution. Could we if he spoke to
21:30Roger Goff, the leader of Kent County Council, because obviously devolution has faced major delays
21:37now. We're not on the priority list. We won't get a mayor or local government reorganisation in Kent
21:42for the foreseeable future. That means we won't get a financial settlement either and here's what he
21:46had to say about the issue. Financial challenges which face local government have not gone away.
21:53So either way we will have to keep addressing that. What is less clear is what the medium
21:59term outlook is now because under the devolution priority programme there was a clear timeline
22:05for taking on both mayoral devolution and also reorganisation of local government. At the moment
22:12there is a general national direction of travel about reorganisation but the timelines are very
22:17unclear and I think we have to look at everything in the light of what we understand at the moment
22:24about this decision. Mark, what do you make of that? Do you think there's gonna be more uncertainty
22:28now about how we're gonna fix issues with budgets like this? There is gonna be a massive overspend
22:33this year, slightly less than last year but still a huge number. Well the thing is that we had the
22:38opportunity to go for this new model. Whether people wanted it or not, the financial incentives
22:45to be able to deliver for our residents here in Medway and across Kent was too much of an
22:51opportunity to not go forward with. Very disappointed as I think Alex and his team,
22:58our team are very disappointed that we weren't selected. We're the gateway to one of our biggest
23:05trading partners in the EU. We're also the gateway to a lot of the immigration into the UK and
23:12we really do need that support and the government should be really looking at
23:16supporting Kent and Medway have been supporting Kent with more than our fair share of people
23:24coming over for asylum and it's not being spread out across the country and it's not fully funded
23:30and our services are taking a hit because of that and this was a way to try and get some redress.
23:36It wouldn't have done all the redress but it would have got us a bit more. It would have been a start
23:40is your view but Alex, you've been saying the praise of the government, you've been saying
23:43they've been supporting local councils giving more money but this is a situation that your
23:49government, the Labour government have not put Kent on the priority list and that means that
23:53there won't be a financial settlement for Kent and Medway in the foreseeable future.
23:57That's not to the benefit of local people here is it? Well I'm disappointed like Mark and I'll
24:03call it as I see it and if it's a Labour government or a Conservative government making a decision
24:08that I don't agree with I'll gladly say it. I don't agree with this decision. What I would say
24:13is it's important to separate out the funding discussion we just had about Medway's budget
24:18with what devolution would represent which is actually a drawing down of powers from central
24:22government so it's actually talking about different pots of cash but I want my residents
24:28to be benefiting from that. As someone who represents a ward that's right on the boundary
24:33with KCC and Tunbridge and Malling I see the effects of that lack of joined up thinking, bus
24:38services that stop on the boundary and actually that's the sort of service that I think devolution
24:44could deliver and that's ultimately that's what this is about. It's not about who's a mayor or
24:48who's a unitary or who's a county, it's about what services people have delivered and I want the best
24:54services for the people of Medway. Mark where do you stand on this because obviously Kent is such
24:59an interconnected county as it is at the moment, does this delay worry you about how it's going to
25:06impact your residence, your life, how it's going to impact the local economy here in Medway? The
25:11thing is that we need to move forward with a model that we're being offered and we need to get
25:18it done and we need to be working with our neighbouring authorities to make sure that we get
25:24a good deal for Medway and the surrounding areas. I've seen on children's services the amount of
25:29children that go across borders between Kent and Medway for schooling and like I said my son
25:35goes to school in KCC, he's got one bus, he's got one bus to school and he's got one bus home
25:42which is not sustainable. If he wants to do after-school clubs it falls down on the parents.
25:49We're quite lucky there's two of us that can get to support him but not every parent can do that
25:55and it is not easy and we need to be thinking not just for Medway, we need to be thinking
26:00county-wide because we do have these cross-border things all the way across.
26:05You've got things where in Walderslade you've got three councils, you've got Medway council,
26:09you've got Tombridge and Malden, you've got Maystone council, all north of the M2. That's
26:15not sensible and it needs to be sorted out and devolution give us an opportunity to make sure
26:22these boundaries are sensible and suitable and work for everybody in Medway and across Kent.
26:28Well I think I saw you nodding there, I think this is a moment of agreement we can end the
26:31programme on. Thank you both for coming in today, it's been great speaking to you about
26:36all these issues. We'll be back next week with all the news, views and everything else to do with
26:42politics. Go to the Kent Online website as well for even more news and views.
26:46But for now from me, have a very lovely evening, I'll see you soon.