How education impacts the youths?
With Ian Haywood
With Ian Haywood
Category
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TVTranscript
00:00Manhood, brought to you in part by Reboot Sports Drink.
00:09Welcome to another conversation of manhood.
00:12Today's topic, the importance of the education system and also youth and their outlook.
00:19I know I always say a really big one, but all of these topics are big ones
00:24because they have a big impact into the progress of our society in Trinidad and Tobago
00:29and, of course, to those who are listening and hearing outside of Trinidad and Tobago,
00:33you know, the outlook globally.
00:36So, to my right, Yohanse Ayodike, behavior change consultant.
00:41To his right, Ian Haywood.
00:43Really a pleasure to have you, communication advisor to the Minister of Education
00:48and also the former chairman of the National Youth Council,
00:51the founding member, the founding chair of the National Youth Council.
00:55And to his right, Niall McNeish, provocateur, and you'll see why.
01:00You know, I better know him as Vibes God.
01:03You know, so really a pleasure.
01:06Gents, you know, let's get straight into it.
01:08You know, another big one, probably the foundation behind a lot of what we experience
01:13in Trinidad and Tobago, positive and negative.
01:15And that's the importance of not just education, but the system by which we get educated.
01:20And people have various thoughts on, you know, our education system,
01:26how we're educated in general, why you should get educated.
01:29You know, there's talk now of even the system, should you be educated through that system now
01:35because, you know, of AI in 10 years?
01:38Is this system going to even make sense?
01:41You know, people not understanding long division.
01:42There's all of these conversations.
01:45So let's jump into it as to what we first understand by the importance of the education system.
01:50And then we can go more into, you know, some conversations you and I had, Ian,
01:55that really blew my mind to the understanding of how that impacts both in the upper class,
02:01and I hate to use these words, but it's just for defining purposes,
02:04and the middle to lower class societies and understand why, as a result, certain behaviors then permeate, come out.
02:14You know, we see it, whether we like it, love it, or indifferent, and also youth and their outlook.
02:21Yeah.
02:22Yeah, it's interesting.
02:23For me, what I like to do with it logically, and at the end of the day, our children and the young people spend most of their time in schools,
02:33and most of their time up in the education system.
02:37So the reality is, most of the culture and most of the norm forming takes place in those environments.
02:43And if we understand it from that perspective, then it shows how important it is to ensure that that environment is not just about books,
02:51but it's about a total cultural training that we need to give to our society.
02:57Generally, especially middle class and upper middle class and those kind of spaces, parents reach them very late.
03:04You might get two, three hours max, a half an hour, hour rushing in the morning, and probably two hours before they go to bed in the night.
03:10In terms of contact hours, no way near the amount of contact as teachers, definitely not the amount of contact as your peers.
03:17So the reality is, our students, our children spend most of their time away from whom?
03:22Away from the parents' trainings and their brain, and really form their cultural habits and norms in the schools, in the education spaces.
03:31And once we get that understanding from the jump, then we understand that for the society to change,
03:37for the worldview of our young people to be in a particular alignment, the education system has to facilitate that.
03:43So do you think that we understand the importance of the teacher's role?
03:49No, I don't think so at all, because Ian, what you're saying, I don't want to sound a bit condescending.
03:57I'm not sounding condescending, right?
03:59But what you're saying to me is obvious, right?
04:02Because wherever you spend most of your time will shape you.
04:06But it seems like many people, including some parents I've encountered, would think that they actually shape their child more than it does, you know?
04:16Right.
04:16Which, to me, doesn't make sense.
04:18Even, I mean, my mom was a teacher, so she had both sides of the spectrum.
04:22Right.
04:22But even thinking about it, if you ask anyone, where you learn most of your stuff.
04:27Definitely.
04:27It's in school.
04:28Definitely.
04:28What shaped you?
04:30The school, and whether it's primary school, inter-secondary school, and even university, to an extent.
04:35So that importance of the education system, I mean, that's why in some countries, teachers make more than doctors.
04:42That's something I think they're having a conversation around right now with teachers and that kind of stuff.
04:48But you're saying teachers, right?
04:50But I actually think it's less teachers that form in the kids than really their peers.
04:54Agreed.
04:55No one goes to the school and says, oh, I want to be just like Mr. Marcel.
04:59No, I disagree with that.
05:01And here, why, because I'm glad, and I was thinking along the same lines.
05:05So, for example, my seven-year-old, when he comes home and he's behaving a particular way, and I ask myself, but where did he learn that from?
05:13He don't learn it from me.
05:14And then I, or in the environment or the family.
05:17And then we go into the school, right?
05:19And I met some of his teachers who might be very stush, very stoic in certain ways, and very old school.
05:25Right.
05:25So, I know it's not coming from them either, right?
05:28So, therefore, his behaviors and what he's saying, and when he comes home and he wants to beatbox or he wants to say a couple things that are on YouTube and things like that, right?
05:37That he's learning from his societal influences, his peers, his friends, and who he wants to be as part of his pack.
05:44Yeah.
05:45So, the teachers are there, yes, to teach you and shape you, and they're the ones that are seeing the child the most throughout the day.
05:53Right.
05:53But are they really shaping the child?
05:55Well, I think the teachers also have a critical responsibility.
05:58That's like mommy and daddy at home.
06:00Right.
06:00And we would all go to school and have a particular teacher that would have said, hey, you can do great.
06:04You can be amazing.
06:05And that sticks with you.
06:06That's true.
06:07You may be talkative, and somebody else may tell you, go and do drama.
06:10Go and do a replay.
06:12A different teacher approach you differently.
06:14Because they're seeing you way more than even some of your parents.
06:18So, they can say, oh, he's funny.
06:19And they put you to host a competition in school, and that grooms you straight up.
06:24So, it's like different facets.
06:26I think the peers kind of build your character, but your teachers help shape your direction.
06:31And on the reverse, if they tell you you're a failure, you talk too much, go to the back of the class.
06:36That could put you in a box that is very difficult to come out of.
06:39So, they can break your building.
06:41I totally agree with that.
06:42Teachers, I mean, I threw that out to play devil's advocate.
06:45I mean, teachers do play a really strong fundamental role.
06:48Because, again, you know, my son comes back or my niece, and they will tell you they were so happy they got a gold star.
06:53And the comments the teacher writes really goes a long way to boost their confidence and what they want to do.
07:00But, likewise, if they get scolded, even coaches, you know, we take it from teachers to coaches to, you know, other, you know, it could be other teachers, not just in the academic forum, but it could be music and so on.
07:13And really can determine how a child feels, more so than the parent in many cases.
07:18Correct.
07:18Because you use an important word there.
07:21You said grooming, right?
07:22Yeah.
07:22Now, in this day and age, when we hear the word grooming, we usually now have a negative connotation with it.
07:27But the point is, as leaders, as teachers, or as educators, I want to use the word educators instead, because it's not only academics.
07:36Agreed, agreed.
07:36Because I remember it has some cleaners in my primary school and thing, give me some good education, so it's not only teachers.
07:42That's true.
07:43Right?
07:44So, as educators, all educators have the responsibility of grooming children.
07:49Yeah.
07:49Right?
07:49And grooming, again, I'm saying it because grooming seems to have a negative connotation, but the point is, they are there to groom.
07:56Right.
07:56So, children are a ball of energy.
07:59Correct.
07:59Let me use hair.
08:01Just groom your hair.
08:02Yeah.
08:02Your hair, just in itself, is your hair.
08:05But with the right grooming, you can put it in the right direction with the right look.
08:09Right.
08:09So, children are this ball of energy.
08:11So, I think with their peers, they get the energy from the peers, so we get a whole set of different things.
08:16And then, there's the educator's responsibility to now groom the children in a manner that is fit for society.
08:22Yeah.
08:22So, we could come back to, you know, all that is putting into context the importance of the education system.
08:28And the second part of it, which is youth and their outlook.
08:31Because the outlook is based on that grooming that we're speaking of.
08:36And what they perceive is the, you know, their right and wrong, their compass, their morality compass going for, you know, going forward.
08:45You know, I have some questions before we really dig deep into the real reason behind bringing that into manhood.
08:51So, not just to understand why people may become the people that they become, good and bad.
08:58You know, negative and positive depends on your outlook or which side of the fence you sit on and survivability.
09:03But also, the question always comes up, the present education system, which you can give us really some strong insight into.
09:13And is it conducive not just from the point of view with AI and all these other technologies coming up where some things are no longer required?
09:24And we see it, you know, to keep the brain and to be able to, the word I'm looking for, you know, I'm not going to be short.
09:38To adapt, but also to take you to the next levels, right?
09:41And yes, that's why these things are put in place.
09:46But more so, the question also comes up, boys, for example, is it natural to have a boy, young boys, sat down in a classroom for eight hours a day having to sit still to take on?
10:04Is it natural to their behavior?
10:06Because when you stop them, when you give them their preferred environment, they're running around, they're busy-bodied.
10:14And also, whereas women, and I'm not speaking, I'm not saying that all women do it.
10:17You have data to prove this.
10:18You don't have to give no caveat.
10:19So, you know where I'm going with that?
10:20No caveat.
10:22You have data to prove that men and women, boys and girls, learn differently.
10:26I mean, again, I would say it's obvious, you know.
10:29I want to be actually a bit condescending.
10:32It is obvious.
10:33So, it's so obvious before I was born, right?
10:36So, why is education system still so obtuse, still so lenient?
10:41It doesn't make sense to me.
10:43And that's why even parents and educators, that's what I like now, as even some people are posted, there are a lot of private schools opening in Trinidad now, right?
10:54A lot of people are going the homeschooling route, right?
10:56And I'm okay with it because people thinking.
10:59Now, I'm not saying homeschooling better than anything else or private school better than anything else.
11:03But at least they're making the effort to try to adapt, to try to understand that the world's changing.
11:09So, I want to put children in the position to be able to not only survive but thrive in society.
11:15What I like is the adaptability concept, right?
11:18Because the Ministry of Education now, I think 2023, last year, they would have launched this new education policy, 2023 to 2027, to speak to cultural transformation through curriculum reform.
11:30So, basically, it is including sport, food and nutrition, farming, and all those things now to be put into the curriculum and not just maths, English, social studies.
11:40So, that was actually like a two-year conversation between all the stakeholders.
11:44And last year, that was passed.
11:48And that is where Adopter School kind of came out from and projects like that.
11:52How do we make it more than just sit down in the classroom and just read a book?
11:55How do you inculcate each other into doing farming and actually having pigs and cows and rabbits in schools?
12:02So, you're throwing the Adopter School.
12:04Just let me know.
12:05Yeah, it's nobody to ask.
12:06It's nobody to ask.
12:06What is Adopter School?
12:08Well, it's the best thing that ever happened in Trinidad since sliced bread, right?
12:11But Adopter School is really an initiative calling corporate Trinidad to come and take care of a school, to Adopter School,
12:18to champion the cause of helping our students and our young people advance.
12:23But in the curriculum, we form areas.
12:26So, in things like how do we do digital transformation?
12:28How do we teach children to create and make apps and all those different things?
12:33How do we do agriculture, aquaponics and aquaculture?
12:37How do we do farming and sewing?
12:40And how do we actively in school and not just for the month or two after you finish SEA?
12:46Well, I was about to ask, so what does it stop the corporate company just throwing money and saying,
12:53all right, here's 500,000, you'll just handle that, do whatever you think is best school.
12:59How are you going to prevent or guardian that from actually happening?
13:03So, the Adopter School program is based in the ministry.
13:06So, when corporate come on board, they come up with a proposal that has to be vetted and approved.
13:10Okay, gotcha.
13:11And sure, it's still within a certain framework, within the curriculum set up and that kind of stuff.
13:15So, that's the back end side.
13:17But the reality is now, the conversation of going to school has to be different.
13:21Yes.
13:22It has to be an absolute different experience from when we went to school.
13:26And why? Me as a corporate entity, why I want to adopt a school?
13:28Why I want to do that?
13:29Well, the saying is, education is good business.
13:33But the real base tax is, everybody that is in school now is going to work for us in 10 years.
13:41That is it.
13:41Everybody that is in school now is going to pay our pension or cancel our pension in 22 years.
13:46That is the reality.
13:47But also, what is in it for them is, you pay any tax anyway.
13:51Yeah.
13:52So, you pay any tax anyway, you give $100,000, you get back $150,000.
13:55Yeah, yeah.
13:56And you get to see, hey, I bill that school.
13:58Yeah, yeah.
13:59And you did a good, you did a good turn.
14:00So, they get back more than they put in, in tax.
14:04So, if they give up, like, using the same analogy, using $100,000.
14:07So, they get back more in tax.
14:08Yeah, 150%.
14:09Oh, okay, okay.
14:09That's an important factor.
14:10Up to $500,000.
14:11And that is where the government is saying, guys, do it.
14:15We support, and we are going to support you in doing it.
14:18We're supporting you in standing up.
14:19We're supporting you by giving you, if not greater, rebate than what you did.
14:23Okay.
14:23So, it, but that has to tie into the new policy that was passed.
14:27Because that would be a lot to change the culture.
14:30Because you have to have the teacher's mindset changing.
14:32And the whole system has to change.
14:34Okay.
14:34So, we need to go to a break.
14:36But before we go to the break, just quickly, how does that mean that we'll see improvements?
14:41And again, not just the way of thinking.
14:43Because you need to have some sort of, and the word I was looking for earlier, guys, in terms of why long division and so on, was development.
14:49It's how you develop your brain to different stages.
14:51That's the word I was getting trouble.
14:52That's the word I was getting trouble.
14:53But, but not to ask my panel, and they still couldn't.
14:58Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
14:59So, let's, let's, let's, let's move it along, move it along swiftly.
15:04Because we also spoke about grooming.
15:05But, I mean, you can see my body here today.
15:08But let's not, you know, shake it out.
15:10But, so, we really come down to the fact that you need to have some, there must be some part of the school system that they have to show discipline.
15:21So, they have to have some classroom activity.
15:23But we also need to break it up.
15:25In the same way you take breaks regularly to have things, like you said, the farm and the agriculture to where you want to go.
15:31So, the good thing I'm hearing as well is that maybe the PE teacher who is, who normally, when you grow up, he tries to teach everything.
15:37That we now see someone specific for athletics, specialized for football, specialized for cricket.
15:44That's really great stuff.
15:45And as a good note, to go to the break.
15:58All right, this is Manhood and we are back.
16:01And we want to just transition a little bit from the education and how the education system was built and is currently being built.
16:06But, really, what happens when you slip through the education system and then you end up in the communities and life after that?
16:14And that's one of the things that affects me a lot when I was chairman of the National Youth Council.
16:20Because in that space, you're going to different communities and you're talking to people, especially when you come in.
16:26You know, why are you behaving like that?
16:27Why are you doing like that?
16:28And you're behaving in a kind of way as if they're wrong.
16:30And you learn so much about, about not just right and wrong, but the cultures in which we operate in.
16:37I remember a young man was telling me once that, to be honest with you, I was found in a garbage bin in the big dumpster.
16:48How old was the seat, man?
16:49He was about 19.
16:51But, of course, about four days old, somebody heard him crying in a garbage bin.
16:58And those are the garbage dumpsters that the truck does come up.
17:00Everybody come down the hill and throw the garbage in.
17:02And pick up that and throw that in the back and drive off.
17:05And somebody in the community found them and took them out.
17:08And, of course, you don't know who mom and dad is because they may not have been from that community.
17:13You may have now had a baby, drive down the road, look around and throw it.
17:17So you weren't left to be found, eh?
17:19No.
17:19You were left to be discarded.
17:21Let us think in.
17:22That's wild.
17:23And so, when you say that, then you say, well, these guys kind of took me out and started to have me around and groom me.
17:29And now, those are the same guys who are encouraging you to do.
17:34And they wouldn't even say encouraging us.
17:36They're feeding me.
17:36I have no reason to be here.
17:39So, the mentality coming out of that and the loyalty.
17:43Yeah, because they gave me my life.
17:46Yes.
17:47It's crazy.
17:48What I want you to elaborate on for not just our viewers and listeners, but also for Niall and Johan say, is this gentleman also now has no birth papers.
17:58He has no idea when his birthday was.
18:00Wow.
18:00I didn't even think of it like that.
18:02I understand that.
18:03Yeah, nothing.
18:04You can't get a job.
18:05You can't go into the system.
18:07You have no license.
18:08So, he was given a name then?
18:10He was like...
18:10A nickname.
18:11He didn't have a surname.
18:12So, unless you have an adopted kindness and that is not as foreign as we think.
18:19It's actually a lot of people go through different things.
18:24I love that you say that because the truth is, even though we or most people may not be from that, let's say, extreme of our background, but all of us are from different backgrounds.
18:35Yeah.
18:36So, therefore, when we enter the education system or not, we all come from different backgrounds.
18:41But if we have a one-size-fits-all education system, then, therefore, it wouldn't fit all.
18:47So, I gladly highlight that because when a child go into the system with a different mindset than the system could even cater for, then, if the system, I would say, fail for now.
19:00If the system fail that child or isn't designed for that child, then the result will be something that society didn't even cater for either.
19:09Right.
19:09And then would be deemed deviant, would be deemed a bad element, but the truth is, things wasn't even in place, which society is supposed to do, right?
19:20That's a responsibility of the society, to put things in place for the citizens of the society.
19:24But if it wasn't put in place, then the outlook of the youth would be way different, and then we would think something wrong with them.
19:31And the other part of that, again, you know, Ian, you know, has a couple of these stories that will simply blow your mind.
19:39Because, again, it's from where you sat, where you are sat, is all you can see.
19:45You know, a lion could only be a lion.
19:48So, if you're in this environment, you can't fathom, you know, as we had that discussion, you know, with Christmas list, you know, where we started to understand that people simply didn't want to die.
20:00You know, you're born in these communities, so you have to go and execute the task put forward because you simply want to eat.
20:07You want to survive.
20:08So, people who are not in that environment can't understand.
20:11So, one of these stories, Ian, you were sharing with me was, you know, about that some of these guys want to go to jail.
20:20Yeah, I was not going to say that, because I said want to eat.
20:23That kind of came back to me.
20:24Like, who wants to go to jail?
20:27And when people tell you, well, it is so hard out here, you have nothing to eat, you have nothing to drink, you have no place to sleep comfortable.
20:37Sometimes you sleep with those guys who sleep in abandoned homes, and two o'clock in the morning, boom, two people come and abuse you.
20:45All your dog is real, and you're just looking for a place just to hide for the night.
20:50And people come and rob you.
20:52I know people personally who are sleeping in certain areas, and two o'clock in the morning, everything they have, they take their shoes, take their bag, interfere with them, just like that.
21:00And you're already in a destitute place already, so it's really maxed out mentally, to the point where people are saying, you know what, I prefer to go in jail.
21:10And I'm like, what are you talking about?
21:11What do you mean?
21:11Well, jail, you have breakfast, you have lunch, you have dinner, you have a bed, you can get a degree, you can go to the gym, you can play basketball.
21:19Wow, so it actually is more beneficial to me to go to that system.
21:26Because you might be there, and you might have other friends who might be there as well, who are like-minded.
21:32So therefore, the chance of you being abused, in that sense, are lower.
21:37And if you hear what he's saying, in terms of they're trying to hide, or they just want to survive the night.
21:43But again, you sit in one environment, and you can't fathom that type of life.
21:48Some people can't fathom what it's like to be hungry, to not see anything in a fridge.
21:54Some people don't even have a fridge.
21:56You don't have family.
21:58This gentleman who is 19 years old, who doesn't even have a birth paper, has no family.
22:04So there's no one to turn to.
22:05And the scary thing is, if you are, at that point, okay with going to jail, then that is a punishment for crime.
22:13It's a reward.
22:15So how do I not do crime if the result is going to jail that I'm okay with?
22:21So I want to bring you Hansi in here, because you go from a period of, say, start off at a level of 100%.
22:28And with mental health, you have different degrees and different percentages of that.
22:35To the point where you're now at zero.
22:37You're broken.
22:39But then, at broken, as you're saying, you are already destitute.
22:43You're already broken.
22:44And then you go into these environments, and you get interfered with.
22:47So you then become, you then cross over, interferral.
22:52Okay, I understand why I use that word.
22:54It's tough.
22:56It rocks you.
22:59Because you don't know anything about that personally, like what are you talking about?
23:02You are now so broken.
23:03Yeah.
23:03What exists in you now is just the, almost the Neanderthal type need just to survive.
23:11You're just eating, drinking, and doing what is necessary to continue to do that, and also probably to give you some moments of pleasure.
23:20Yeah.
23:20In that sense.
23:21So, let me just ask another question just before you answer that, right?
23:27So, is it that the education system currently, as is, as it stands, right?
23:32Before, you know, we do all these niceties.
23:34Is it that it's failing fundamentally because they still have a group of individuals who are not benefiting from the system that it is, that exists currently?
23:45And are we just raising, are we raising sociopaths because of that?
23:51I don't think it's an educational system thing.
23:53I think it's a societal thing.
23:54So, even from like a government perspective, there are other main ministries and agencies that deal with the social culture of our communities.
24:02So, there are other ministries that are dealing with not just the school children, but the whole community, the whole home.
24:08Gotcha.
24:08Those ministries that are giving you grants for unemployment and all those different things.
24:13So, there are other spaces that have that direct responsibility.
24:17Because now you have to get to the school first.
24:20Yeah, yeah.
24:20You have to be able to afford it.
24:22Yeah, to come to school.
24:23So, who gives you, who makes sure you have milk, a place to sleep?
24:27That's not really the education system.
24:29Right.
24:29That the education system is for those who make it in, and you have to now groom that person to be a better citizen.
24:36And you're coming with those.
24:37Along with the other agencies and the other projects and stuff like that.
24:42But from birth, from birth to five, from birth to 12, something has to take place.
24:47And then there are people who, you know, drop out of school because their parents have nothing.
24:53And they have to go and farm.
24:55Or they have to go and stand up on the highway.
24:57The reason why I drop out was because of the education system failure.
25:00It was because it's society.
25:01You had to.
25:02And it's societal norms.
25:04So, when we're talking about it, we really need to look broader.
25:06And it can't be just on a government.
25:09It has to be on us.
25:11And that's why, you know, I got into NGO work as well.
25:13Because everybody who have the ability to do something, should do something, should contribute somehow.
25:19At least that's what I think.
25:21You want to see both of you.
25:22You want to see what you want to see?
25:24Listen, listen.
25:25Hear this, right?
25:27Niall, that was a real good question.
25:28You asked to raise the point of your society.
25:30Because I am one who always advocates for self-empowerment.
25:35Right.
25:35That we shouldn't depend on others to do things.
25:37But listen, after we did the steeping with Christmas list, and we heard that, and we talked to KG, and we hear a different side of society.
25:46I think this is real s*** to know.
25:48Let me tell you where s***.
25:49And I'm not a political scientist.
25:51Right.
25:52So I think the role of our government should be at least to provide the three basic levels of Maslow hierarchy of needs.
26:00Which is shelter, right?
26:03Food, and security.
26:06Whether it is physical, I'll veer a little bit with the psychological.
26:10Because if we're giving taxes to a group of people, right?
26:14At that, he had to say Trinidad, how he's managed Trinidad is like a parlor.
26:19This is evidence of that to know.
26:21Wow.
26:21Right.
26:22You can't even manage your resources you get properly for the basic.
26:25I ain't saying extra thing and car, even which car and thing, I ain't saying everybody's supposed to have a car.
26:30We're talking about the basic thing.
26:32There's a base level that people don't even have that they're willing to go to prisons.
26:37And I don't know if you've ever been to any of the prisons in Trinidad and Tobago.
26:41Even one of the newest ones, the maximum security and thing.
26:43Yeah.
26:44You don't want to be there, right?
26:46I want to just say that again, because for those of you who are hearing Ian and Johansson now and saying about, you know, and the persons that go to jail or want to go to jail because it's better, it's subject to the environment.
27:02Right.
27:03If you think by any means that that is an experience, have a visit.
27:08When you hear that the iron go clack, there's a hole, whether you're on the outside or unfortunately the inside, the experience will certainly shake it to your core.
27:21You know what scares me, Johansson, on that same point you just read about normal, when I went to other Caribbean islands and I went even to the United Kingdom and realized that even here, what we give is way more than first world countries on other Caribbean islands.
27:39So you can't remember for a while I hear that knocking it, knocking it, knocking it.
27:43It's not enough.
27:44It's not enough.
27:44And when you go, simple things like the light on the road in England, it's dark, you know, because we don't pay nothing electricity bill, walk in the hospital in America and because they got damaged, what?
27:56If you don't bring insurance, you get nothing, you die, regardless of if you have to, it's not to wait long and don't have a bed and still get service after three days, you know, you get nothing unless you have insurance.
28:07It depends where you go because they have to stabilize you and after they stabilize you is when, you know, they know how to see the insurance.
28:15But I think on the emergency ones, but there are plenty of non-emergency incidents that happen every day in our spaces that you wait and there's pockets of spaces.
28:24So when you start to see that and travel all over the place and see that you realize that it's absolutely not good enough.
28:30I agree on that, but it's like from the world perspective, like where, how do we manage that?
28:36Well, we understand that education is not only academics and the importance of giving people what they need.
28:47So I'll digress and come back.
28:50In couples counseling, what I tell couples is give the person what they need, not what you think they need.
28:56So you could give somebody, if somebody want A, B, and C, that's three things, give them that.
29:01No, you might give them C to Z, which is 23 things, but they won't appreciate it and it won't be good for them because what they wanted is A, B, and C.
29:09So if we're looking at a society, right, and you may not know every single person in society, but I'm sure we have a general idea.
29:17What are some of the pillars to create a successful society, a successful populace, and the people that we have in charge.
29:26And again, I do advocate against, well, we had to get it from the government and et cetera, et cetera.
29:31But listening to it, that ministries, people, people in charge, because once you're a leader, you have a responsibility.
29:38Whether you like it or not, whether you're a leader in a community, leader in an organization, leader of the country, you have a responsibility.
29:45And understanding that and putting those things in place is really important so that when it's funneled into the education system now, or they could even reach to be funneled in the education system, it's really important.
29:58So there's, just to touch on what you said, there's an author by the name of Khalil Gibran who speaks about that, you know, especially in relationships where it's like, you know, you're giving or love languages.
30:10Where the person's asking for water, but you're saying, hey, but look, all this expensive wine, but they're like, but all they're asking for is a glass of water, you know, but look, you could have this nice liquor, but asking for water, you know.
30:24So as the great Iowa George said, you know, the people want water.
30:27And what they're asking for is probably, you know, at the basics, you know, my boy here likes to quote Maslow a lot on the propensity of needs.
30:36And what they want is what, at the basic level, we need to give.
30:41And I take your point when you mentioned about grass always looks greener on the other side.
30:45And there are things, whether it be fuel prices and even medication, and the drugs that we get here in Trinidad are highly, highly subsidized.
30:53The drugs that are over 2,000 US, right, then you'll get through.
30:58But we can't get water to everybody.
31:00So it's not even just that, you know.
31:03My thing is, what if you have a bottle of water, but you have to feed 10 people in the class?
31:07And everybody need a bottle of water.
31:09So it's like, for me, it's like, we know what the need is.
31:13But if I only have one bottle of water, it is impossible to shake that and make that into 10.
31:18And what is past this prologue, you can't go back and say, this government and that government.
31:24Right.
31:24So exactly.
31:25It's not a this and that government, but we understand.
31:28We understand what it is.
31:30And so whether or not, so again, so now I'm going back with, it is still our responsibility.
31:35If the people who are supposed to do it are not doing it, then we have to do it.
31:39That is the thing.
31:40Agreed.
31:40And that is because if I have one bottle of water and 10 people need to get water, we have to find a way to get nine other bottles of water in the room.
31:50But here the tea fed with that, right?
31:51And this way, Robin Hood is coming.
31:53Right.
31:54Because if the people.
31:55That's not what your country can do for you.
31:56The people have, or the people that have not doing it, then a Robin Hood, and I'm using Robin Hood now metaphorically.
32:03Correct.
32:03Would have to do it.
32:04And that's why even, you understand, some of the crime come in because you work with people in prisons.
32:09Some of the people who commit crime, they've committed base on need.
32:13Yeah.
32:14There's not no, I'm a criminal and I'm conspiring against somebody and I just want to hurt somebody.
32:18I didn't have the basic things.
32:20These people here have the basic things.
32:22So then, well, I will take the L from a family.
32:25I'll take the L from a community or so forth and so on.
32:28And I'll go after it.
32:29And that's why the rest of us have to understand that.
32:31When you be selfish with your pocket, you're actually, from a society perspective, risking your community even more.
32:37So, what we're understanding here is it's not always what they need, what they just need.
32:44It's also all they know, as we've established.
32:47People want to go to jail.
32:49It's not they need to.
32:50What they know is that is a better life.
32:53And we're coming back to the point of the importance of the education system and youth and their outlook.
32:58And where we sit is what you see.
33:01And therefore, if you're at one point, you can't understand that life.
33:06And they probably can't understand your life or the lives of an upper class, middle class, and to the lower class.
33:12So, you know, with that one, we take a break and we come back more on the importance of the education system.
33:18And how does it affect how we become men?
33:21Hey, welcome back.
33:34This is Manhood.
33:35Topic was very spicy.
33:37We're talking about the educational system.
33:39And for me, if it's working or not.
33:43However, I want to actually address the elephant in the room, which is right now to me, as an outsider looking in, right?
33:51I've been seeing, especially of late in the news, a lot of fights, which I find very strange because when I was in school, I didn't have, yes, we used to fight a lot of time, especially for boys.
34:02But now when you're seeing girls going to that level or that extreme level of violence, I'm like, clearly something is changing.
34:09I might think it's the internet that actually creates these situations, but is there something more fundamental that I'm missing?
34:17For me, all during school, I used to see plenty of fights.
34:21I think the broadcasting of it, of anything is now amplified.
34:25That's what I personally think, to be honest.
34:28But, of course, society is really different from a long time.
34:31And the levels of things that we do now and feel more comfortable doing as a society is way more risky than the risks we take back in the day, for sure.
34:41So, I take your point on that, but you mentioned there that it was happening even in your day, right?
34:47So, therefore, even then, there were issues.
34:49And I know we spoke about society's role before they even get to school.
34:53But even when they get to school, like the school I went to, you know, any sort of bad performance or something, is either suspension, is licks, is lines.
35:05And I know a lot of the corporal punishment we've taken away from the school system.
35:09But the fact that you said it happened even in your day, then it doesn't mean that the flaws happened now.
35:16The flaws were there before.
35:17So, what is it that the school system can do, what is it the educational system can do to sort of course correct or, you know, ease maybe some of the behaviors or the understanding of the children to not be part of that?
35:34Or is it just pull your hands up, boy, well, the society they come from and therefore this is a product of that?
35:40Are they wasting time in school?
35:42And me, I think I definitely have to do more.
35:44But it's so big.
35:48It's so, for me, it's so large of an issue.
35:54I don't even know.
35:56Even like the teachers need more support.
35:58The teachers need more investment.
36:01But school fights, we do never lose in a football game.
36:06So, a possible solution, which I've seen worked, is to ask why.
36:10Now, you may think that's simple, but sometimes we think we know why somebody fights him.
36:16But we may not know why.
36:17So, therefore, we can't apply the appropriate solution because we think we know and we apply this blanketing.
36:25Now, let me tell you where I learned that.
36:26When I used to work with NGOs, I remember applying for funding.
36:29After a while, the companies we would apply for, what they would want is a sustainability aspect of the program.
36:36So, they want to see how the program is sustained.
36:38So, therefore, now, to ensure that it is sustained is not just a one-time thing.
36:43We actually have to go into the schools and find out, okay, principals, teachers, what are the issues that you have?
36:51All right.
36:51We have these 10 issues.
36:53Obviously, we can't deal with all 10.
36:55We've taken one issue.
36:57And we take this one issue and then we divide into it.
36:59We have the 10 students.
37:00Okay.
37:01We've taken 10.
37:01Now, we have plenty of students, you know.
37:03So, but we could only take 10.
37:05And we take 10 and then we find out.
37:07So, we ask the parents.
37:08We find out where they live, et cetera, et cetera.
37:10And we do a deeper dive.
37:12It's root cause analysis.
37:13That's a form of therapy also, right?
37:16Where you dig deep.
37:17You ask the why and the why and the why.
37:19Then you dig.
37:19By the source.
37:19You dig.
37:20So, because expulsion, suspension, licks, most of those things are used because of the symptoms.
37:27So, we use it to address the symptoms, not the cause.
37:30And I like that.
37:31And jumping back to where we all have to do something because we have a lot of NGOs in Trinidad.
37:36And some people say it's a good thing, it's a bad thing.
37:39But I think it's a good thing because each NGO could even take up a different aspect of things.
37:45So, if I do in this community with the psychological level, somebody could do the social level.
37:50Somebody could do this.
37:51Somebody could do that.
37:51And we address all the issues.
37:53And then maybe what we could do, and this is for future, then maybe come together with the data.
37:59Right.
37:59Right.
38:00And find what we have.
38:02That is spot on.
38:03Because it could be solved, you know.
38:04Yeah.
38:05But it's the why.
38:06And I'm sticking with that.
38:07Ask why are we fighting?
38:09And then we talk about the intensity of the fight.
38:11So, it had fights when I was in secondary school too.
38:14We didn't have a camera, phone and thing to publicize it.
38:16But I would agree the intensity of the fight changed.
38:18Because it didn't have no stab or punting.
38:21It might get licks, fists.
38:23But the actual stab or even sometimes the intent to kill.
38:27I think it was a little different from then to now.
38:31So, and if we're going back with the needs, if your basic needs are not meant.
38:36Right.
38:37You come in, even if you actually reach the school environment, you're coming with a different degree of desperation.
38:44Right.
38:44And you spoke about when people desperate, they become feral.
38:49And when, with animals, you know, when an animal bark against the wall, animals do anything to survive.
38:56And we're not describing the students as animals.
38:59But all of us are human.
39:00And if you push our back against the wall, we could become animalistic.
39:03We're all part of the animal kingdom.
39:04Yeah, we could become animalistic.
39:06So, that's my solution, the why.
39:08But you spoke about data, you know.
39:11But, you know, when you know better, you do better.
39:14Right.
39:15Right.
39:15And if in these circumstances, you know.
39:19I know, Ian, you mentioned about there was stabbing in your day too.
39:22Right.
39:23Right.
39:23Or there were things happening in your day.
39:24There wasn't somebody stabbing.
39:25But, you know, yes, I take your point that social media and another for the advent of social media has made it a lot more, you know, wider known.
39:36It's now in your face.
39:37Everyone is now more aware of it.
39:40You know, you spoke about some of these students that commit these crimes in schools.
39:43Right.
39:43Right.
39:45Expelled.
39:45Right.
39:46But then we put them back into our society and now you're now uneducated.
39:50Right.
39:50As a result of that.
39:51So, you make it, you've taken something bad and made it now worse.
39:55So, from a data perspective, just to jump in on you right there.
39:58The question I would ask is how much school fights there are now compared to 10 years ago and then 20 years ago.
40:06Okay.
40:07Right.
40:07So, because that takes away the iPhone and the social media recording.
40:11And if that data said we have 100 school fights this year and 10 years ago it was 102 and before that was 98, then that's facts that it could look not to change.
40:20But it definitely feels like a whole heap more.
40:24So, it's all right.
40:25You can't do anything now.
40:26But what is the, what is the, what are we feeling?
40:28Is that real?
40:29Is there a real increase?
40:31There is an increase in the violence.
40:32But whether it is an increase, whether it is an increase or not, because people now are more aware of it and some of them do it for popularity and to make a back and to make a statement, etc.
40:41But we're not about, when we talk about the importance of the education system, we're not talking about the importance now.
40:47You know, that now the education system is failing us.
40:50We talk about whether it was 20 years ago or 30 years ago.
40:53We talk about overall.
40:55Does it mean that we've never really addressed, from the source as Johansson was talking about just now, and like, you know, have we really, the root cause, have we looked at it before then?
41:05You know, have we just been putting, have we been putting a plaster on it and sort of ignoring it?
41:11And as such, now with social media, it is now coming to the fore.
41:14So, the question there is, when we talk about the importance of the education system and youth and their outlook, can we then briefly talk about, should we be then, you know, introducing some sort of military training, some sort of military time?
41:32Some, whether it be a year or two, at the age of 11 or 12 or 13 or 14, whatever it is, cadets.
41:39No, but they actually have those kind of programs, right?
41:42Mandatory.
41:42When people are separated from the normal school, you still have to go my lap and you still have to go, you're not going back home and do nothing, you know?
41:51You still have to go in a more military, advised space to do different groomings, different technical vocational skills, and all those different things that probably didn't exist before.
42:02Long time, when you can expel your home and you have to go out to work.
42:05But now we have so many YTP and so many different spaces that you now have to be transferred into compared to just totally expelled.
42:13But what I'm saying, Ian, before you get to that level, before you've acted out, that maybe at that point, you know, prevention is better than cure.
42:21Yeah.
42:22So at that point, you know, there's some sort of training that allows not just for us to continue to have a military presence and recruits, et cetera, but persons who will then, you know, have a sense of discipline.
42:35Right.
42:35You know, I remember seeing, you know, you ever saw, like when you see cadets and you see them marching, there's a sense of pride.
42:41You know, they put on the uniform, they put on the boots, and there's a sense of pride.
42:45You know, my dad, who, God rest his soul, was in the Royal Air Force, would tell me about hog-nosed boots and spit and shine.
42:51I mean, you know, you have to polish it, and, you know, when you make your bed, you have to be able to flip a coin on it, you know, to tell what it was.
42:59I can't tell you when last I see a Boy Scout, a Girl Scout, a cadet.
43:02I can't tell you when last I see any of those programs.
43:06So I totally understand where you're coming from that.
43:08So my question now is, is the problem, is the solution just to throw money, like more money?
43:15Would more money be able to solve all our issues?
43:19If money was not an issue?
43:20Me, I don't think so, but I think...
43:23More money, more problems.
43:23Yeah, I think...
43:24Nah, nah, nah, I don't agree with that one.
43:26Yeah, well, I think it creates a space for more opportunity.
43:30Yes.
43:31I think more money could create a space for more opportunity.
43:34I think when I get more opportunity, people who may have been sidelined before would now be able to find a space that I could call home and be excellent.
43:41So there are so many more people now coming up with so many more specialities who have been able to dream about it.
43:47I want to be an artist and it is very easy to say I want to be an artist and become an artist in your own right in a couple of months.
43:56Compared to the dreamers that we had before, it was so difficult to access your dream.
44:01So more money facilitates that.
44:03You may be in a school before and how do I do this?
44:06I really prefer cooking, I really prefer agriculture, but there wasn't any space for that.
44:10And just wider society on a whole, when you come out of school, when you want to do something, you have so many different things.
44:16And I'm trying to add anywhere in the world.
44:18You could just go on YouTube yourself and start to sing.
44:20You start a podcast if you want to be on TV.
44:22No longer do I need to have to go to a media school and get 25 brilliant call-ups to be on national TV.
44:30I could sit on home and set a podcast at 12-year-olds and 15-year-olds playing games and have thousands of people streaming them and parents making money.
44:38So the world now, money brings those opportunities.
44:42It could be destructive, but it could also be very transformative, I think, as well.
44:47So, again, gents, a very rich conversation.
44:50You know, we're running out of time and, you know, that's why we continue these conversations and certainly we'd want to have you back here.
44:57So if you could just kind of go around the room, closing thoughts, starting off with you.
45:02For me, I think and I believe men have to do more for the society, for the communities, for our homes.
45:11I think we have been covered down and we have been minimized for too much and the social economic space is making us being comfortable with just being invisible.
45:26And men, at the end of the day, have to stand up and be the uncles and the stepfathers in the community, have to stand up in the schools, have to, long term, if it had two people fighting, you could bet your bottom dollar.
45:41The first driver that's coming, pulling over, stopping and holding it to your head, stop that.
45:45Random. Men have to do more.
45:49And if men do more in Trinidad and Tobago, the community and the country will start to be a better place.
45:55Men have to hold people accountable. Men have to be accountable.
45:58And that's why I think this program is phenomenal because there are men who are sitting down and knowing in your chest you're not doing enough.
46:05You're minding your own business.
46:06Because we have to do more individually and that's where the self-accountability has to come into place.
46:12But I'm being very specific about men.
46:15Not just every citizen should be self-accountable.
46:17I think we have to do more.
46:20We must find three or four people that we choose that we're going to do more in their lives.
46:24That's what I really believe.
46:25Ian, let me ask you.
46:28We've discussed it a couple of times on manhood.
46:30But in your estimation, your opinion, what does it take to be a man?
46:37Being brave to be authentically you.
46:42The hardest thing I observe is men being comfortable to speak the truth.
46:49We have to posture so much.
46:52You can't say I'm doing it right now.
46:54No, we have to posture so much to so much of people.
46:56And that's not a joke.
46:58If you bounce your foot, it doesn't hurt.
46:59If that foot only hurts you, you have to get out of my house.
47:03Culturally.
47:04So we have to be able to be brave because we have a real valuable space and contribution to make.
47:10But now, it's becoming even more burdensome.
47:15Because if you talk too much, if you stand up too much, it's toxic masculinity now.
47:21And you have to be brave enough to watch all those new social norms.
47:25And if you are too decisive, quick.
47:27It's narcissistic for when the men do it.
47:30And we have to be brave enough to say, no, you're not putting that label on me.
47:33That is wrong.
47:34Man-o-lessence.
47:34Man-o-lessence is a new one.
47:36Yeah, yeah, yeah.
47:36It's a pan syndrome.
47:37Yeah.
47:37Man-child.
47:38And any time men stand up and start to put the chest out and start to be alpha, then we have a problem.
47:45They find some technical term to trap us to get softer, to become more quiet and more invisible.
47:51And that is not what we're supposed to be anymore.
47:53In 2024, 2025, we have to have men who are brave enough to be able to stand the cancelling on social media, to be able to withstand the perception of people and do the right thing because it's the right thing.
48:05Do the right thing.
48:05That's one of the best examples.
48:08I've never said amen on this show yet.
48:10I was about to say it.
48:12I only said preach, brother.
48:15Like, wow.
48:17Okay.
48:17I really appreciate that you say that to them for real.
48:19As to the provocator of the show, who's had to take some, you know, and take some things sometimes based on the things that I say.
48:26But you're right.
48:28But just keep in mind that that same man who we want to have hold other people accountable could also be that little boy who grew up into that man, right?
48:40So, we all know that it have space for errors to be made.
48:45Yeah.
48:46But overall, I think that with time comes wisdom.
48:49And no matter how bad you was as a youth man, no matter how bad, if you at least pass the age of 30, 33, 35, somehow you just get a little bit of common sense.
48:59And you just know when other people do any wrong things.
49:02And I think that's the time when you may have to face some of your peers with some difficult things and see some of the difficult things.
49:11And I like the fact that on panels like this, we get to actually express ourselves.
49:15So, even as a man, even if I am not whole and there are areas I have a gap, a next man has to hold me accountable.
49:23My father has to hold me accountable.
49:25The grandfather in the community has to hold me accountable.
49:27So, it's not even I am the top holding the younger generation accountable.
49:32There will always be a man who is wiser, with more experience above me.
49:36And if everybody and our culture decide we're holding our brothers accountable, everybody will get help.
49:42So, I help one side, but I get the help on the left.
49:44And once it becomes circular, I want to become brave enough for our society to stand up and say, no, we're not taking that, we're not encouraging that, we're not condoning that.
49:52And you can label it however you want, but you're not doing it.
49:56And that has to stop.
49:57You can look at all the reads, all the memes on social media.
50:01They saw this little baby giving trouble to lie down, daddy walk in the room and watch you, and your natural inclination.
50:08It's a simmer down quick, right?
50:09Natural inclination.
50:11And the weakness of our society is when you have men stop doing that.
50:16Stop just walking in the room.
50:18And stop making it obvious that I am present.
50:21Not even shouting, talking, nothing, just being present.
50:24It's being there, right?
50:25So, I will take it from there, to give Johansi to close the show, you know, because with his, with her show, Diamond or Gold Nugget.
50:35We talk about education.
50:37And as Johansi had mentioned, you know, education comes in all forms.
50:41And on this show, the importance of education comes from the man in a man's life.
50:46You know, from the time that you're born to the time that you go out there and do your thing, the presence of a male, be it an uncle, a friend, someone that you trust, who has that moral compass of the person that you want your child to become, needs to be present in that child's life.
51:04You know, women, you do everything that you can do, and you're one of the most important, if not the most important, part of a child's life.
51:12A son, you know, when they grow up, that nurturing aspect.
51:17But a man needs a man to guide him.
51:20A lion needs a lion.
51:22And so, when we talk about that education, that's where it needs to start.
51:28What it takes to be that boy, what it takes to be that man.
51:31And part of that is not just the individual, but the community.
51:34That is the society to ensure that we get back to the point, as you mentioned, Ian, about taking, stopping in the road and saying, hey, stop that.
51:44What you're doing, you need to start getting back involved.
51:47And I know being afraid of cancel culture is one thing, but also being afraid that something will happen as a result of doing it.
51:55Right.
51:55Needs to also, we need to step up.
51:57You mentioned brave as one of your first things with regards to being a man.
52:00It's the only way things are going to change.
52:03And I mentioned more money, more problems.
52:06And I take your point, Johan, say, when you said, in this case, it's not apt.
52:12I retract.
52:15Because when we look at programs like Adopt a School, and we really put the money into those schooling systems, and we give them better facilities.
52:24AC.
52:25Hot.
52:26It's hot out there.
52:27You know, someone who might be interested in cricket or studying, but they might be interested in football.
52:33And you have a coach who's a properly paid coach who can take, you know, a coach and a man and a young boy's life is everything.
52:42You know, growing up swimming for me.
52:44My coach was my disciplinarian.
52:47Those are the types of things.
52:49That's how corporate TNT can get involved.
52:51And you said it, Ian.
52:52You know, if you have one bottle of water and 10 people, right, where are the other nine coming from?
52:56Yeah.
52:57And that's where we individually, as a society, corporate, as, you know, one gentleman once said, it's not, don't ask what you can do for your country.
53:06But what can you do for it?
53:13Okay.
53:14I appreciate meeting men of the front walks because what I don't know, you know.
53:19As you're saying, we complete that circle and be our brother's keeper.
53:23And viewers, you could disagree with me on this, but as men, I believe everything is our fault.
53:29If you have success, it's your fault.
53:31If you have failure, it's your fault.
53:33If you pass the exam, you can't say because you have bad teachers, you have to find a way to still get the education.
53:39And education is not only academics.
53:42Yeah, correct.
53:42And I'm putting it out because most men that I know, we are solution-oriented.
53:47So complaining, and you could argue with me, complaining is not really a masculine trait, right?
53:52You could complain sometimes, but have the solution with it.
53:55Yeah, what next?
53:55So whatever going on in society is our fault, right?
54:00And we could change it.
54:02And you said that men need to be present.
54:05Yeah.
54:06So whether it is present in the family, present in the community, present in society.
54:11And present don't mean in making noise.
54:13Yeah.
54:13A man who stands up and you know that a man stands for something, he could be silent.
54:19Because when a man stands for something, you know, I can't curse wrong here.
54:23Well, I know you never later know.
54:24Yeah.
54:25A man and a man stand for something, it means something.
54:28And each man, because we have a different gift, we could stand for something different.
54:33Correct.
54:33You don't have to stand for everything.
54:35Correct.
54:35Jesus already come and he do what he had to do.
54:37So each man now stands for some sort of quality, something, something that they could stand for.
54:43And that in itself is education.
54:45So it could be, you stand for academics, you stand for earliness, you stand for punctuality, you stand for excellence, you stand for something.
54:54And I believe if everybody, each man is able to manage themselves first, right?
55:01Then society itself will become better.
55:04And therefore, now we could start managing and helping others as we move along.
55:08Yeah.
55:09So this is manhood.
55:10I know you want to say something about it.
55:12We're out of time.
55:13Right.
55:13Yeah.
55:14Robert, Johan C., Ian, Niall, thank you very much for viewing and we'll see you again.
55:20Stand up, brothers.
55:26Manhood, brought to you in part by Reboot Sports Drink.