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00:00Respect Her Game, powered by Guardian Media, in collaboration with Antimacal Group of Companies
00:10and the University of the West Indies St. Augustine Campus Institute for Gender and
00:14Development Studies. Hi and welcome to Respect Her Game, our International Women's Day series
00:20where we discuss the sexualization of both women and girls in sport. Joining me on set for this
00:28discussion is none other than Denise Deming, a counselor, coach, advocate, usually at the
00:36forefront speaking about pertinent issues in society. Denise, please tell me, how did you get
00:44involved in this project? Gabrielle Hussain, Dr. Gabrielle Hussain, who is part of IGDS, who's a
00:51senior lecturer at the university, she reached out to me and once she reached out to me talking about
00:57Respect Her Game, I thought it was just a wonderful concept. And there are some issues that Respect Her Game
01:04are bringing to our attention that we all need to be working through. And I'm also the president of
01:11Soroptimist International of Trinidad and Tobago, and that's a women's organization that is interested in
01:17how do we ensure that women and girls develop in a way that will make them sustainable and develop
01:24in a way that they will have respect and they will respect the country and other people. So when you
01:30have a name like Respect Her Game, it just worked very well with Soroptimism. Yeah. And you know,
01:38you're also a runner. You're very involved in sport in the country. The one of the the issues in this
01:51project is basically we spoke about in last week's episode is the music being played at some of these
01:59events which young girls are at, and even older women. Yeah. And what is your take on that, the type of music?
02:07Okay. Let's deal with the type first because I know you have a lot to say before we go into when, how.
02:14All right. Yeah. So in terms of the type of music, Trinidad is having a problem with the type of music.
02:22And it's because people like Trinidad are seen as totally horrible, as if they lack discipline and so on.
02:32But I've written that Trinidad is really a reflection of the culture. And the point I'm making there is
02:39that we're using that kind of music at the end of some races or at the end of some activities,
02:45some sporting activities. And because the lyrics of that kind, those songs are sometimes aggressive,
02:54they're not respectful sometimes, then that is not the kind of lyrics that you should be hearing
03:02after you've just run three miles. Because after you've run three miles, your body needs a very
03:08different approach. Yeah. So in terms of the type of music, I think that we need to transition and move
03:14away from the kind of music that a lot of our young people are creating. And I know young people say,
03:21but that's what we want. However, you know, there are some rules and we ought to be able to respect those
03:27and obey the rules. Now, I do believe there's a percentage of people who listen to this music.
03:33And you know, I started off by calling you Denise, but really it's Mrs. Deming. You can call me Denise.
03:39And I'm using Mrs. Deming for a purpose. Yes. You listen to Trinibad music. You are very familiar
03:47with the music, unlike a lot of adults who do not know what the lyrics actually contain or entail.
03:55And you know, you're in touch with the songs that are being released.
04:00The other point I should raise before I ask my question is Trinibad music, you know,
04:09we've seen a lot of negative reports coming not only from Trinidad and Tobago, but from up the Caribbean.
04:14Certain artists have been banned in certain countries. We are sending our children to sporting events.
04:23Sometimes they're not accompanied by parents or someone who's supervising them. And this music is being played.
04:32How do we get that message across to the organizers of these events who think it is necessary to have that party atmosphere at these games?
04:43You're confusing me because I have a different view about the party strategy and the party environment around sporting activities.
04:57I have a very different view about that. And if I can let you know what my view is.
05:01Of course, of course.
05:03Because there's that point. And then there's also the point of you calling me Mrs. Deming, because at my age,
05:09my contemporaries are not listening to that kind of music. So let me talk about that first,
05:15that I believe that the lyrics of music simply reflect the culture of a country.
05:24And if my contemporaries are not listening to that and not even just checking into it,
05:30it means they have ignored what has happened to our culture and our culture has just changed.
05:37It is no longer when I grew up. Yeah. Respect was a thing.
05:42You know, I grew up behind the bridge. I grew up on Quarry Street.
05:46And although that was a ghetto community at the time, it was one in which all the members of the
05:51community cared about you and they ensured that you did what you were supposed to do.
05:56And if you went home and told your mother that somebody, you know, told you not to do so and so,
06:01your mother will tell you, well, don't do it. And she'll probably give you a few.
06:05She'll beat you for it.
06:07I grew up like that as well. I grew up in a small community called Tabakit.
06:11And at that time, there were no cars to jump in to drive where you're going.
06:15I remember walking to church on a Sunday and having to tell every neighbor good morning on the way to church.
06:24And then back from church, you say good afternoon. And if you didn't say hello or acknowledge people,
06:30your parents would have known about it before you even got home.
06:33Yes. I don't know how that happened, but you know, yeah, because in those days,
06:37they didn't have social media. So they couldn't WhatsApp your parent, but they told your parent.
06:41But you see, the point that I think is there is that at that time,
06:46Calypso and there were also some local singers, they sang and they used a different kind of language.
06:52They used very different themes. What we have now is simply a reflection of what our societies have
07:00become and our societies have become disrespectful. So the lyrics are now simply reflecting the culture.
07:07For us to change that, we have to start with leadership and we have to change things in our education system.
07:15And that is how we will begin to impact it. You know, so from the point of view of the lyrics of those
07:22songs that they sometimes play at the end of a sporting activity, then we have to change that.
07:29Now, there's another side to that. If you're involved in sports, no matter if you've been cycling,
07:34if you've been running, if you've been walking, you've raised your all of everything in your body
07:40is now raised. It's high. And when you come back and at the end of the race, there's more jamming music,
07:46it means you haven't come down. So you haven't even started to relax. And that means that whatever your
07:54activity was may not be as useful to your body as it should be.
07:59And I've learned that because I started running at age 35. You know, and I've done quite a lot of
08:08running, quite a lot of walking and so on. I would see you sometimes around the savannah.
08:12Yes, yes. I enjoy doing it. But I also understand that at the end of a session, I have to do some
08:20stretches. I have to take my blood pressure down. I have to take my heart rate down. Now, if at the end
08:27of let's say you're doing a triathlon, which I did once in my life, I don't think I'll ever do it.
08:33And I looked like a cherry at the end. I did the running leg. Yes. Along with a friend,
08:38Laureen Waldrop. I can't even remember who did the swimming part so many years ago, over 10 years ago.
08:44Yeah. Our first time ever tried something like that. But I remember at the end, I just wanted to
08:50lay down and relax. Yes. Yes. So when at the end of that, you know, come to music that jam in and,
08:57you know, intense, then it's not helping you. And when I first started to do those 5Ks and the small
09:03races and so on, Indra learned we had the start was the race, the end was the race. There was not a party
09:10to start and a party to end. So this respect her game is really speaking about how do we transform
09:18where have where we've become to somewhere that is really productive because where we are now
09:25is not productive from my point of view. Do you think, you know, we do have a lot of races. You,
09:32you're a runner. Yeah. The banks and other organizations, everybody has a race, you know,
09:38to observe some international day or something. Do you think that corporate is losing, you know,
09:47the actual meaning of what a race should be in terms of the physical part of it, the mental part of it,
09:54and creating it into somewhat the party atmosphere? I think corporate has lost
10:01the values around the sporting activities. And I think that corporate now is interested in,
10:08first, covering their costs. Yeah. Because when you look at the races and you look at,
10:13you have had 3,000 persons and they're paying $250 to participate in it, corporate isn't putting
10:20money in that. It's breaking even. Now, if you're doing something to break even, but you're thinking
10:27that it is also to help us physically. And at the start of it, we partying. And at the end of it,
10:32we partying. And at the end of it, people are going home with all kinds of carbohydrates
10:38and foods that will not help their physical being. Yeah. You've lost your value system. And you're doing
10:44this simply for your branding. And we need to move away from branding simply for branding, because there
10:50are opportunities for that. But you can't have a health activity that you claim to be a health
10:57activity, but it is really branding. And all the people who are involved in it are no longer benefiting.
11:04What you have is people, they've done a 5K race, and at the end of it, they're going home with a set of
11:09bread. And I don't want to say the other things that they're going home with. But those will not help
11:15the health. So I think we have to transform what we're doing. I think corporate has to rethink
11:22and start to really invest in improving our country. And the health of our people is important.
11:30Yeah. I want to bring something up. I have another question I want to ask, but I want to bring up
11:33something. For Carnival, Fianne Lyons usually does her event. And I was walking the savannah
11:42day and her event was going on. And I went to that event. And now she uses music and gets everybody
11:49to exercise because she is this big on fitness, always exercising, always thinking about healthy
11:57stuff. And she did have healthy things available there as well. But you didn't have that
12:04overpowering music. Whatever she was playing, it was really to get the people who were there to
12:11participate in the aerobics, which she was doing. And then the other leg of that, which she has been
12:17doing for many years, is to go up the hill. And I think hundreds of people actually went up the hill.
12:25And this is very different, of course, from what we're seeing. When a 5K takes place,
12:30you know, the big party at the beginning and the big party at the end. Here you have someone who's
12:36actually pushing the health factor. And while she's doing the session, she's giving advice. She has
12:42professional coaches who are there, you know, speaking to the crowd. And then there are boots
12:49in the crowd after giving those healthy options. Do you think we should have more of those? And have you
12:56ever participated in Fianne Lyons? I have participated in Fianne Lyons thing,
13:00but I don't like Chancellor. I don't think much people like Chancellor. So it's not something that
13:07I do often. Going up is not bad. Coming down is, yeah. It depends. If you have an issue,
13:12coming down is a problem. Anyway, but what I think with Fianne Lyons is that is, what is she?
13:18That is a singer. Yeah. That is a creative person who writes music, sings music, produces music,
13:26okay? And what that creative person has done is used their creativity as something to help you with
13:35your rhythm. Yeah. So it's not like hard running kind of thing. So it helps you with your rhythm.
13:41And then what she's also done is they do some exercises at the start and at the end. So your body
13:47comes back down. So there's a whole different structure. Yeah. It is. And then when you go to
13:52the booths, the booths have healthy things for you if you want or whatever, but they're healthy.
13:59That is not what I am seeing in a lot of the other corporate activities. Those corporate activities,
14:05that's not what it is. It's a party to start, a party all the way, and a party to end. And here's
14:11something. I've been involved in a couple of them. And at the start of it, you want to talk to,
14:16let's say the person you're running with. You all can't talk in the start because the music is too
14:22loud. Yeah. And that is an issue where people disobey the rules of the noise and the volume of
14:32music. They disobey that. Nobody stops them. You know, so the people who are starting the race,
14:39they have to walk down the road to talk. And then when you're about to start,
14:43they walk back up because the music is just too loud. You know, so it's not just the food.
14:49It's not just the energy that they're increasing. It is a whole range of things. There's a traffic
14:57part of it. There are all kinds of things that we have to just implement our laws. To me,
15:03that is a big problem. We have a lack of implementation. Yeah. Now, the name of
15:10the project is Respect Your Game. Yes. And one leg of this project is actually to
15:17get DJs to submit playlists, which are, you know, more relevant and better for young women and women
15:27at games. Well, how do you feel about that part of the project? That is excellent because if the DJs
15:34start to think of, okay, I need to respect her game is the theme. So I need to get the pieces of music
15:40that I can use that might reflect that. Certainly, I can't use the pieces that are the opposite of that.
15:49So those will go down. So it means that at the end of this project, we should have a full listing
15:56of music that is acceptable. The other thing that that does is for a DJ to sit and think through
16:04what is this music about? What is it really seeing? What's the key message? What's the objective?
16:10That makes his thinking, his or her thinking, change. And that means our value systems can,
16:16can, I'm not saying they will, but it can begin to just change because they're now forced to think
16:22through, okay, what is the message of this piece of music? What is the language of this piece of music?
16:28And we don't have very many things happening in Trinidad where we're looking at language and messaging
16:34in a positive way. You know, so I think it's a brilliant idea. I mean, I'm part of it.
16:39Now, it takes me back to you and your personal journey as a runner. And I want to talk about
16:47the preparation process for this in terms of how do you get ready? And what is your mindset at that
16:55time? And then let's go to when you get there at the start line, what kind of environment would you
17:02like to have? Okay, how did I begin running? I began running because I was high level in the
17:11corporate world and doing extremely well. And I had my annual medical and all the numbers were going
17:17in the wrong direction. Everything. I couldn't leave the organization because I needed to be in corporate.
17:24Yeah. And I was told that you need to start exercising. And that is what made me start
17:30to exercise. So I started to run. I didn't like gyms because, I don't know, it's just not my thing.
17:36When I went to school, I played hockey. So I started walking and running. And then I continued that and
17:43my numbers started to go in a better direction and so on. But one of the things about me and exercising is
17:51that we have two, I have two sons, my husband and I have two sons. And from the time they were about
17:57seven years old, on a Sunday, we took them to Harvard. We lived Shagonas and we took them to
18:03Harvard. And they played whatever sport Harvard was playing at the time. Right. Now, it was difficult
18:08for you to go back to Shagonas and come back to Portisbane to pick them up. So I started walking
18:14around the savannah of the chancellor while they were doing that. So that's the kind of introduction.
18:20But here's what happened to me. When I got to age 49, I decided, I don't know where this came out
18:26from. I had a very good friend. He's now dead. I decided to do a marathon.
18:32At 49. At 49. Very admirable. Yeah, I wanted to do it before I was 50. So I decided I'd do it at 49.
18:38And that's what really started me being a real intense runner. And you have to do a lot of planning,
18:45a lot of training to do a marathon. It's not something you can wake up a morning and say,
18:50I'm going to do that. I've been there. You've been there. The training is for at least 16 weeks.
18:58And the hardest part for me of a marathon is that you're supposed to do, this is the old-fashioned
19:03approach. You're supposed to do three 20-mile runs before the marathon. Listen, a 20-mile run is hard.
19:15So when I started doing that, that started to tell me, I decided after I did the first one,
19:21I said, I've done two marathons, my first and my last.
19:23But that didn't happen because running for me is an opportunity, even for me to think,
19:32it's an opportunity for me to experience our beautiful country. Because you see,
19:36like if you run very early in the morning, you can see the sunrise. And just seeing that sunrise is
19:42beautiful. If you run in the evening, you see the sun going down and you see the transformation from heat
19:48to a cool kind of temperature. So to me, running has been beautiful. But to begin, you have to ask
19:54yourself, why am I doing it? What's my goal here? You know, once I know what my goal is, and generally
19:58my goal is, there's a horrible thing that I have to say, but I want to run into my coffin.
20:04Oh my gosh. I didn't actually have to be the horrible thing.
20:09That's a horrible thing to see. But that means that I want to avoid the kinds of illness that are
20:16associated with as you are getting older. Now, it's not going to be a guarantee. But for now,
20:22I believe that. So I'm going to continue running. And so you start off by having a goal. Once you have
20:28a goal, then whatever you're doing becomes fine. Because if you start to think no, the goal pops
20:35back into it. If you want to do the marathon, then this is what you have to do. So I keep doing that.
20:40Then generally, during the run, I go through these phases saying, why am I doing this?
20:46Tell me, just stop. Just forget it. And then the goal pops back into my head.
20:50And then I'm finished. And when I'm finished, I feel so good.
20:53Yeah. Accomplished. You've achieved something.
20:57And I think physically, your body is stimulated. And that makes you feel better. So at the end of
21:04almost every run, I am ready. I'm ready to party, but not there. I want to do my stretches. I want to
21:11come back, bring my body back down, and then go on to do whatever that I needed to do.
21:16You know, you brought up something about at the start of a race where you'd want to
21:21probably speak to the person that is next to you. And at the end, I'm sure family members are there,
21:29friends are there, who you'd also like to have discussions with. And if music is blasting loudly,
21:36that is very difficult to do. You have to find a way to go somewhere else where you all can talk to
21:40each other. Sometimes the music is so loud that at the end of a race, generally, there'd be people
21:46applauding. Sometimes the music is so loud, you don't even hear the applause. Yeah. So I think that
21:52what has what our races, how they've become, is really no longer a place where we interact with
21:59each other, we communicate with each other, because we have to then go somewhere else to do that.
22:04It's now just a big party. No, it's now a big party. Party? No, let's not. Let's not use Marshall's
22:14song for this. But I do get what you're saying. Yes. So I think we need to just get back to
22:24what are we doing? Why are we doing it? And then how are we doing it? Yeah. I think the why is has
22:30moved. So we have to get back. We need to respect her. And it cannot be songs in which there's abuse,
22:38sounds in which there is sexual offense of young women. And as I was saying before, describing
22:45a woman's body parts in so many different ways, and you're hearing this blasting,
22:51my first daughter, as soon as she hears a song, she knows exactly what is being said,
22:56and she'll come quietly in my ear. Mommy, did that person just say A and spell it out?
23:02And I'm like, yes. But sometimes it happens while you're out. Not that I'm playing the music for her,
23:10but you're out, you're out. And sometimes in the mall, and Soka is playing and some of the music,
23:19you know, I don't think we're very aware of some of the songs that we put out there. And the audience
23:27that these songs are reaching. Now, yes, there's an audience for it. But I think more needs to be done
23:34in terms of knowing where it's going. I agree with you that, you know, we have to be a little more
23:43careful with our music. And this is something that I'm going to say that a lot of musicians will
23:50not agree with me. But when you hear an international artist, generally, you understand exactly what
23:58they're saying, because their enunciation is acceptable. When you hear a Trinidadian artist,
24:06enunciation is poor. I certainly have to listen three and four times to hear exactly what they're
24:14saying. There are two things that are just poor. The enunciation is poor. And because the rhythm of
24:19it is so fast, it's hard to understand exactly what they're saying. You know, and that is something
24:26we have to start doing. Our singers, our artists have to start thinking through enunciation. People say
24:33to me, Denise, that's the English thing, that's the colonialism. I don't know about that. But I love
24:37how you speak. I've always admired how you speak, your voice and your articulation. I think you could
24:44actually start coaching classes. Yeah, yes, you know. But I totally understand what you're saying,
24:51because even sometimes I have issues, you know, figuring out, I would have to sometimes go look for
24:57the lyrics to see what is being well sung. Most of the times I have to go through the lyrics to figure
25:05out exactly what is this person saying. And then there are some pronunciation that is wrong.
25:11Now, if your audience is a global audience, let us say your audience is global and it goes to Africa.
25:18Yeah. The enunciation has to be right. Yeah. Because Caribbean genre is not what they know.
25:26So the enunciation has to be such that they understand what you're saying. And I know
25:31pronunciation is a big thing because only when I started in the media, I learned that I was pronouncing
25:37some words incorrectly. And because of the media, I learned the correct way. But when you're going to
25:43school, there's no one teaching you these things. You know, there's another part of you brought up
25:48school. There's another part of it that really triggers me. And that is we want we do very well
25:56for people to be doctors, lawyers, dentists, you know, all those kinds of things, as opposed to
26:02what are we doing for our creative people? Yeah. Are we teaching them music properly? So our creative
26:08people have learned music and passed all the music exams before they leave secondary school.
26:14Are we doing any work with the use of the voice so that they understand how to use your voice
26:20by the time they leave secondary school? No, we're not doing that. Or if it's happening,
26:24it's happening with a few people. If we do those things, then the creative people who come out of our
26:32secondary school systems will be different because we're doing well. We have a lot of young people,
26:37a lot of people who've gone abroad, and they've done well. But they're doing well in a system and
26:43structure that is not clearly identified. So if we only improve the system, the structure and the
26:48process, we'll have a tremendous difference. Well, we only have two minutes left.
26:55Only? How is that? I told you it was going to go by so fast. What do you hope to see
27:02coming out of this project? I hope to see a transformation of the lyrics that are coming
27:10out and that are being played, because I don't think I can stop them from playing it at the races,
27:15right? I don't think I can do that. But I'd like to see a transformation of the tunes and the songs
27:20and the lyrics that are being played at those races so that they focus more on how could we
27:27have the individual feel a little more rested, feel a little safer. So that's respect her game
27:37and ensure that the language is positive and helping her to feel good about herself.
27:42Oh, well, I think I have a minute left. I'll give you a plug for Suroptimist International. You are
27:50the head of the local organization. Yes. Anything to look forward to?
27:55Well, Suroptimist has been in Trinidad since 1959. So it's an old organization. Yeah.
28:02We now have seven clubs throughout Trinidad, and we're trying to start one in Tobago.
28:08So this is an opportunity for me to say to anybody in Tobago, if you're interested,
28:12please reach out to us because we want to start. We've had one in Tobago in the past,
28:16and we want to have another one coming back. The other thing is the president of Suroptimist
28:22Great Britain is coming to Trinidad. Oh, wow. Okay.
28:26And I look forward to being able to bring her for an interview. Of course.
28:30And when is this happening? This is happening on the 10th of April. Okay.
28:35So I'll give you those dates. I'll give you the correct dates that she'll be here.
28:38And we look forward to her being here in order to ensure that we can transition the organization.
28:44Yeah. I'm looking forward to have you again in April. On another show, it would be Breaking
28:49Stereotypes, of course, where we continue to feature inspiring women in the country. Thank you so
28:56much, Mrs. Deming, Denise, for coming on and speaking more about this project, Respect Her Game.
29:04Thank you for viewing. I'm your host, Kristi Ramnering.
29:16Respect Her Game, powered by Guardian Media, in collaboration with Anta Macal Group of Companies and
29:21the University of the West Indy St. Augustine Campus Institute for Gender and Development Studies.