Which countries are the most family friendly? How do you help kids deal with jet lag? What about routines, bedtimes, and kids in business class? In this week’s episode of Unpacked, four AFAR editors, all parents, share their answers to all those questions, plus real-world advice about traveling with small children—including one editor’s genius hack for making sure her kids eat.
Read the transcript here: https://rebrand.ly/jp8nny7
Discover more episodes of the podcast here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked
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Read the transcript here: https://rebrand.ly/jp8nny7
Discover more episodes of the podcast here: https://www.afar.com/podcasts/unpacked
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CONNECT WITH AFAR
Afar.com is a digital and print magazine that publishes travel tips, guides, news, and stories: https://www.afar.com
Get updates on the latest articles, travel news, and more from AFAR by signing up for the AFAR newsletter: https://afar.com/newsletters
Follow AFAR on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AfarMedia
Follow AFAR on Twitter: https://twitter.com/afarmedia
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Follow AFAR on Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/afarmedia
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TravelTranscript
00:00 I'm Aislinn Green, and this is Unpacked, the podcast that unpacks one tricky topic
00:08 in travel every week.
00:10 And today we're wading back into the weeds or the waters, whatever you want to say, of
00:15 family travel.
00:17 We're going to be hearing today from several members of the AFAR staff, all parents, in
00:22 a conversation helmed by Laura Dannen-Redman, our New York-based digital content director.
00:29 She and I talked a little bit after their conversation, and we're going to hear that
00:33 for a couple of minutes before we go into the larger group conversation.
00:37 Okay.
00:38 Well, hi, Laura.
00:40 Hi.
00:41 How are you?
00:43 Can I call you Ais?
00:46 Yeah, of course.
00:47 Of course.
00:48 I'll explain for listeners.
00:49 That's my California nickname.
00:51 I don't know what happened, but when I moved to California, I somehow became Ais.
00:57 So we're going to be hearing your thoughts and tips on traveling with kids in a couple
01:02 minutes.
01:03 And it's such a big topic.
01:04 Like, how did you decide how to focus this conversation?
01:07 It is.
01:08 It's massive.
01:09 We actually had a much, much longer list of topics we wanted to dig into.
01:13 And I think I might have bothered my colleagues because we ended up focusing just on a few.
01:19 We probably could have stayed for a few hours.
01:21 And what I wanted people to get out of this is I wanted to feel personal and relatable
01:27 and accessible, right?
01:29 Because parenting is different around the world for different families.
01:34 No one size fits all.
01:36 So especially when it comes to travel, I just wanted people to feel like they could get
01:41 a couple tips, a couple of concrete tips based on the conversations we had and the lessons
01:45 we learned along the way for better or for worse.
01:48 Yes.
01:49 So without any lessons, it sounds like.
01:52 Yes.
01:53 Without giving kind of everything away, what were your main takeaways?
01:59 We all have kids that are younger, that are kind of under the age of seven, I'd say.
02:05 And I think there is a lot of fear sometimes about, you know, bothering other people when
02:11 you're on the road with little kids.
02:13 And we want to empower people to feel like they can go anywhere with little kids at no
02:18 matter the age, that little kids are just tiny humans who also want to see the world
02:23 and learn a lot.
02:25 And there are ways that you can bring a bit of home with you to make it a little easier
02:29 on yourself and the kids.
02:31 Hold out for Michelle Barron's packing tip.
02:34 It's my favorite lesson in the whole conversation.
02:37 I'm not going to reveal it here, but it's about halfway into the conversation.
02:41 It is quite brilliant.
02:42 So yes, stay for that.
02:43 There's nothing else.
02:45 You have a big family trip coming up this summer.
02:48 Were there any tips that you feel like you're going to put into practice?
02:51 So we have this month long trip that Aislinn is alluding to, to Australia and New Zealand,
02:58 and I am pumped for it.
03:01 And I am also a little nervous because we are bringing the kids to the other side of
03:06 the world.
03:07 What will jet lag be like?
03:08 How long will it take hold?
03:11 And I think my takeaway from our conversations was that like, you have to go with the flow.
03:16 You have to be willing to change your plans, even if it's a carefully scripted trip with
03:20 internal flights and destinations you intend to get to.
03:24 Doesn't matter.
03:25 You kind of just have to wing it every now and then, which is hard for families who are
03:29 used to routine.
03:30 Kids thrive in routine.
03:32 So I am trying to convince my husband to be okay with just canceling some things and maybe
03:39 sticking around in a place where we're loving the hotel, we're loving the town, and we just
03:44 want to see more of it to dig in a little more.
03:46 And it's so great to talk about that in advance, right?
03:49 That your plan is to essentially like disrupt the plan.
03:53 So everyone's on the same page.
03:55 If you're like, "Hey, we're really loving this place.
03:57 Let's stay here for a little longer."
03:58 That's really wise.
03:59 All right.
04:00 Well, on the next family travel episode, we will circle back to you and you can tell us
04:05 about how it went.
04:06 We're still alive.
04:07 I'll check back with you in a month.
04:08 Wonderful.
04:09 All right.
04:10 We'll talk to you then.
04:11 Thanks so much, Laura.
04:12 [Music]
04:12 Hi, everyone.
04:13 I'm Laura Dannen-Redman based here in Brooklyn in my basement/playroom studio, which feels
04:23 very appropriate for today's conversation.
04:26 I'm talking with a few of my colleagues about family travel in 23.
04:31 And I get to talk about this because I have two very sweet, very active little girls,
04:36 Haley and Livvy, who are six and four.
04:39 So what I'm going to do is just go around the horn and ask everyone to introduce themselves
04:43 and tell us a little bit about yourself.
04:45 Ooh, let's add a fun fact too.
04:48 We'll start a debate.
04:49 In addition to telling us where you're from and your kids and how old they are, please
04:53 tell me if you prefer to drive or fly with them and why.
04:58 So I prefer to fly with the kids because they have become little urban children who aren't
05:04 used to being in cars for more than 20 minutes at a time, and they are much better behaved
05:10 on an airplane because they get to watch an iPad and move around and check out the snacks
05:14 and things.
05:15 So that gets my vote.
05:17 All right, next up, Michelle.
05:19 Hey there.
05:20 I am Michelle Barron.
05:21 I'm the senior travel news editor at AFAR.
05:24 And I also have two kids, a daughter age four and a son.
05:28 Nico's almost seven.
05:30 We live in the Bay Area.
05:32 And as far as whether or not we prefer to drive or fly, it's a little bit of a cop out
05:37 answer, but honestly, I love them both.
05:40 They're both for very different reasons.
05:42 You know, with driving, I feel like I can pile all the things into the car.
05:47 And so I don't have to think too strategically about like what we bring or what we don't
05:52 bring.
05:53 We just bring everything.
05:54 And there's so many great places to go and driving distance in California, which we did
05:58 a lot during the pandemic.
06:00 But then with flying, we can go more places.
06:03 But then we have to be more strategic about how we pack.
06:05 So I like them both.
06:06 And the kids love them both.
06:07 Most of the time, definitely more now than when they were toddlers.
06:10 Good.
06:11 Awesome.
06:12 All right, next up, Sarika.
06:14 Thanks so much for having me here.
06:16 I am Sarika Bansal.
06:17 I'm our editorial director.
06:19 I live in Nairobi, Kenya, and I have one daughter who is three years old.
06:23 Her name is Ayla.
06:24 In terms of flying or driving, I will also say both.
06:29 Actually, Ayla loves airplanes.
06:31 She just loves the whole thrill of it, like saying hi to all the flight attendants and
06:35 looking out the window at the clouds and all the snacks and walking around.
06:39 We love to camp as a family also.
06:41 So I think that for that, it's just so I just really love going on in a car camping sort
06:47 of little weekend adventure away.
06:50 So nobody said yet, I hate flying because my kids throw tantrums.
06:53 Tim, is it going to be you?
06:56 It is.
06:57 Yeah, I hate both.
06:58 I managed to survive them.
07:01 I'm Tim Chester, deputy editor at AFAR based in Southern California.
07:06 I used to have a, well, I do have a son who's now seven, and then we accidentally tripled
07:10 that.
07:11 So we have two more sons who are both three and a half.
07:15 We used to do a lot of flying with just one.
07:18 And then when the other two came along, we've done one flight in their lifetimes, but we
07:22 have another one coming up very soon.
07:24 But yeah, if I had to choose, I much prefer driving, obviously, lots of places within
07:29 reach in Southern California.
07:32 We can, like you say, stack up the car with everything they love, and we're not annoying
07:36 anyone else.
07:37 And if we have to stop, we can stop and take it at our own pace.
07:41 And I don't feel as trapped as I do in an airplane.
07:45 That's a really good point about like, not wanting to annoy anyone and being able to
07:48 like kind of own your space.
07:50 I feel like that came up a lot during the pandemic, right?
07:52 That was our out for getting around.
07:55 And I think we'll talk about this a little bit later, just road trips in general and
07:59 thinking about the role that they play in family travel nowadays.
08:02 But to kick it off, I wanted to get our readers some really good intel on where they should
08:07 go with their kids.
08:08 So I wanted to hear from you, where are you going this year with your little ones?
08:13 Just to know, I think we all have kids under the age of seven.
08:15 It sounds like Ollie is the oldest, Tim.
08:18 So I'm sorry for all y'all out there who have teenagers.
08:21 We are not there yet.
08:23 But please, you know, leave us comments and tell us what you do and what kind of trips
08:27 you've taken with them.
08:28 I'm happy to start and then I'll pass it off.
08:31 I'm in the midst of finishing up plans for a fairly crazy month spent in Australia and
08:38 New Zealand with my whole family, my husband and the girls.
08:41 So we are going under the auspices of going to see some World Cup FIFA Women's World Cup
08:46 matches.
08:47 So we are getting to two matches, but we're using it as an excuse to kind of work remote
08:52 a little bit and take the girls all over Australia, which is a place that I love.
08:56 I studied abroad there and have been back five or six times.
09:00 We are circling the country.
09:02 We're going to Byron Bay, Cairns, Perth on the other side, then back across to Tasmania,
09:09 and then Sydney, a stop in Melbourne, and then over to New Zealand and the South Island
09:13 around Queenstown before flying out of Auckland, in and out of Auckland, which I think probably
09:18 just gave a whole lot of people panic attacks, as I said all that, and recognizing that we're,
09:23 you know, going to make our kids move a lot.
09:25 They're going to be on the go.
09:26 We're going to be changing routines.
09:27 We may not have routines, but we're also not trying to program too much.
09:31 We just kind of assume there will be a lot of pool days and chill days walking around
09:36 the base.
09:37 So wherever we're based in each of those places is really important.
09:40 Do you find the more you do that, the more they get used to rolling with it?
09:44 A little, yeah.
09:46 We've been traveling with them since they were like doing big trips since they were
09:49 about seven months old each, and they are very adaptable, thankfully.
09:54 But I think like things you're used to, like they're used to that, but they can't handle
09:58 a two hour road trip, you know?
10:00 So it's kind of like apples and oranges a little.
10:04 So anyone else?
10:05 I think Michelle, you're taking a pretty epic trip with your kids in a few weeks.
10:09 Yeah, next week we are leaving to Poland and Romania, which is a trip I dreamt up last
10:16 year when my father turned 80.
10:18 My mother's Polish and my father's Romanian and they immigrated into the United States
10:22 in the late sixties.
10:24 So it's been on my mind to go there with my family and my kids ages made it not very attractive
10:30 the last few years.
10:32 But then with my dad turning 80, more or less the pandemic restrictions going away and my
10:38 daughter being four and a half now.
10:40 So hopefully being a little more amenable to international travel, we're going to make
10:45 it happen.
10:46 Similarly, it will be a pretty busy trip.
10:48 I'm going to Warsaw.
10:50 From Warsaw we're going to Krakow for a couple of days, then we're going to fly to Bucharest.
10:54 From Bucharest we'll take a little mini road trip.
10:57 And I'm honestly, I myself am curious to see what my own review of this trip will be when
11:02 I get back in terms of mostly my daughter's performance and see whether or not she like
11:07 steps up to the challenge and leave some of the toddler antics behind.
11:12 Or if we see some regressions and some fits and, you know, asking to go back home, which
11:19 is common.
11:20 I don't know if you guys have seen that, but like sometimes I feel like when we push our
11:23 kids a little bit in terms of like the, the pace of travel being a bit much or them getting
11:28 too far out of their comfort zone, I noticed that especially my daughter will start to
11:33 say, you know, I want to go back home.
11:34 I want, you know, cause she's just missing the comfort and the routine.
11:38 Anyways, it's going to be epic.
11:40 It's going to be great.
11:41 It's going to be crazy.
11:42 It's going to be all the things, all the reasons why we do this, why we push through and do
11:48 these big trips.
11:49 Cause it'll be great.
11:50 No matter what, there'll be memories.
11:51 Some good, some probably not so good, but there were definitely memories.
11:55 I love that.
11:56 My daughter, just this weekend, we were in New Jersey from New York.
12:00 She said she wanted to go home and it was so weird because we were at like grandma's
12:03 house.
12:04 Right.
12:05 And she just wasn't feeling well.
12:06 So it's kind of like, you can't predict when that's going to happen.
12:11 I totally hear you.
12:12 Like you're just changing their environment constantly.
12:15 And even things like food, like the, you know, my mom likes to cook Polish, obviously she
12:20 likes to cook Polish food and my kids don't, it's like food that they're not as familiar
12:24 with.
12:25 And so they just get like, you know, kind of whiny and you know, and it's like, can
12:28 you try and eat it?
12:29 Cause she made it for you.
12:30 And it's like, I just want to go home where I, you know, I eat mac and cheese.
12:36 Yeah.
12:37 So, yeah.
12:38 And also that just like balancing the multi-gen stuff is interesting and challenging and it's
12:44 heartwarming and challenging and all of it.
12:49 Before we hear about Tim and Sarka's trips, do you, do any of you have like things you
12:53 must pack for the kids to create that sense of home?
12:56 I mean, admittedly, it's not going to be home, right?
12:58 That's the point.
12:59 It's going to be vacation and it's going to be fun and new, but like, how do you get
13:03 out of the house without 20 stuffies is my basic question.
13:06 I mean, I have something embarrassing to admit about what, how I'm packing on this Europe
13:10 trip.
13:11 My, Catalina, who's clearly like the more challenging one, is a very picky eater.
13:16 I am packing one whole suitcase basically of like foods I know she will eat.
13:25 Basically like Cheerios, Hawaiian rolls, even some shelf stable milk.
13:31 So I have like milk, like a suitcase, like it's ridiculous.
13:35 I never thought I would be this parent.
13:38 I always thought I'd be like, we go, we're going to find things to eat, you know, like,
13:42 and it's just like, you know what, I just need some peace of mind to know I have some
13:47 things that will keep her alive for two weeks and stave off, you know, fits.
13:52 And I was like, this is perfect.
13:53 We'll go with this extra suitcase that has a bunch of snacks and we'll eat through the
13:56 snacks and then we'll pack it with souvenirs and bring it back.
13:59 That's kind of brilliant.
14:00 Either of you guys?
14:02 Nothing, nothing unusual.
14:03 No, really just books.
14:04 Yeah, a lot of books are heavy though, right?
14:09 Yeah, I'm not wheeling the little kid suitcase behind.
14:14 Oh, so they have their own little kid suitcases.
14:16 Now, this is another debate whether we do the two giant adult suitcases that the kids
14:21 can ride on, or we make everyone pack their own.
14:23 All right, so you're opting for the little suitcases.
14:26 Where are you going next, Tim?
14:27 Yeah, my travels aren't quite as ambitious as either of your trips, partly because we're
14:32 a bit outnumbered three to two.
14:35 And even when we just go to a local, you know, we went to this local chili cook off thing
14:39 and there's always one missing.
14:41 And so we're trying to contain them a bit more on our travels.
14:46 So this weekend, we're doing actually doing a multi gen trip to Legoland.
14:49 And we're actually using an app called Turo, which is like a car sharing app, because we
14:54 need seven seats.
14:55 So I'm going to interested to see how that works out.
14:59 And then later in the summer, we're going to finally get back on a plane and go to Cabo
15:03 San Lucas.
15:04 There's two aubergine hotels really close to each other.
15:07 And they both have great kids clubs, packed full of activities, because I mean, this is
15:12 another family travel dilemma, like how much do you want to spend time as a family on the
15:16 trip and how much do you want to pack them off to someone else and relax.
15:22 So we're going to do a mixture of the two.
15:24 But yeah, we're on the lookout for places where we can, like I say, contain them and
15:29 keep them simulated and just know where all three are at any one time.
15:33 I like the philosophy of one thing for the kids and one thing for the parents each day
15:38 or like the adults each day.
15:40 So you don't like especially if you're doing Legoland all day, you should get like wine
15:44 country day the next day or something like a little healthy balance.
15:48 Yeah.
15:49 Oh, I like that.
15:50 Sarika, what about you?
15:51 I was just thinking how like sometimes traveling with kids can just feel like parenting in
15:55 another location that you're not as familiar with.
15:58 So I feel like having that kind of balance really helps.
16:01 In terms of where we're going, we are going to actually be spending a bunch of the summer
16:06 in the US, which is where our families are.
16:10 And on the way, we're going to be spending a week in London, which I'm really excited
16:14 about.
16:15 My aunt is there and I spent a bunch of time there as a kid.
16:18 And I am actually really excited to show my daughter like the side of London that I saw
16:24 as a kid, like having like a softy ice cream with a flake in it and going to see the changing
16:29 of the guards and kind of like the cheesy tourist stuff that I think more experienced
16:34 travelers would roll their eyes at a little bit.
16:36 But in the eyes of a toddler, it's all really fun and cool.
16:40 I also really want to take her to a museum for sure and just expose her to some very,
16:45 you know, I feel like London has such amazing exhibits on right now, specifically like there's
16:49 this really cool Ai Weiwei exhibit.
16:51 So you know, I don't know what she'll understand of it, but I'm just excited for it.
16:56 Where are you staying in London?
16:58 With my aunt and I feel like most of our travel, I think this is the thing with being an expat,
17:03 is that most travel ends up revolving around seeing loved ones who live very far away.
17:09 And yeah, so it's that hard balance of like, okay, well, we want to spend time together
17:15 as a family, but we also want to see all this family and friends who we on a daily basis
17:20 live halfway across the world from.
17:22 I think that would resonate with a lot of people, probably people listening to is how
17:26 do you balance wanting to just take a vacation just for your immediate family and spending
17:31 time traveling to see people, especially post pandemic, right?
17:35 There's that rush.
17:36 Totally.
17:37 We had so many years to make up.
17:38 Tim, do you go back to London much?
17:41 If you couldn't tell Tim's accent is very Southern Californian.
17:45 Yeah, well, we did the famous trip back with the first child when he was two and a half.
17:52 And yeah, he was awake running up and down the aisle both ways finally fell asleep just
17:57 as the plane was coming into land and got really cranky at passport control.
18:02 He was doing that strange sort of walking circles on the floor thing, whether stewardesses
18:06 and stewards were trying to work and it was a nightmare.
18:09 And then he woke up at 3am every day for a week.
18:11 So we were a bit scarred from that, but we are actually going planning to go back next
18:15 summer.
18:16 We're like, going to do a month there and the youngest ones will be four and a half.
18:21 So I'm just hoping that everything will be fine.
18:23 We would definitely be buying three iPads for that.
18:27 Yeah, Godspeed.
18:30 So many of us are doing these longer trips now too.
18:32 Did you guys ever take a month to do something before or like three weeks?
18:37 We're all US based.
18:39 Well, traditionally US based and we have like what a minute of vacation, although afar has
18:43 a very generous flexible leave policy.
18:45 My parents being European, they were very into the like August, we take all of August
18:51 off and we go and we did actually take these like epic trips in August.
18:55 And I recently asked them about that.
18:56 I was like, how did you do that?
18:58 Like, did you have vacation time to do?
19:01 They were engineers, like very intense, nine to five, seven to five jobs.
19:06 And they said that they took some of it as unpaid vacation.
19:10 So in order, you know, they would arrange it all and make sure like they were covered
19:16 for being out of the office.
19:17 But they said, yeah, they just took like two of those weeks as unpaid.
19:20 And I was like, oh, okay.
19:24 Interesting.
19:25 I found that with kids, like there's so many times when they're sent home from preschool,
19:28 there's so many times when you're juggling work and parenthood.
19:31 Anyway, you may as well go do that somewhere else.
19:35 And you know, combine a bit of remote working with a bit of vacation and find some holiday
19:40 camps and kids clubs and enlist grandparents and yeah, you know, just change the scene.
19:46 Yeah, we're bringing grandma and grandpa on part of our Australia hike about a week of
19:50 it.
19:51 So I think my husband, I will have one night off, maybe because that's another thing when
19:55 you're on vacation.
19:56 Like, yeah, if you don't have kids clubs, parenting around the clock, at least when
20:02 you're home, there's school or something.
20:04 But I also think we all deal with jet lag a lot.
20:07 Jet lag, toddlers.
20:08 Do you guys have any hacks or places you refuse to go because the jet lag is just the worst?
20:14 No, I mean, just jet lag is definitely like time zones, time zones, definitely more of
20:21 a consideration for me now.
20:23 Just generally, I would really want to go more than a two or three hour radius in any
20:27 direction with all of them, if possible.
20:30 Definitely kind of refocused where I think about traveling.
20:33 And yeah, certainly wouldn't do any long haul, super long haul stuff.
20:37 Yeah, if I'm honest about it, I am stressed out about this trip to Europe because of the
20:42 jet lag.
20:43 But I also just felt such a need to do it now that I'm kind of like all the normal considerations.
20:52 And I think this is the difference between what I'm doing, this kind of returning to
20:55 our...
20:56 There's like a real specific purpose to this trip versus a vacation that we would pick
21:02 because to Tim's point, I would definitely, in terms of vacation, we often just go north
21:07 or south for like we'll go to Canada or go down to Mexico so we can go somewhere beautiful
21:12 and not necessarily work because it's like I want to relax.
21:14 In this case, I feel like I'm just like, we got to do this.
21:18 We got to go.
21:19 We're going to go.
21:20 We're going to do it.
21:21 And it's going to be, it can be painful.
21:22 But one thing I...
21:23 We haven't experienced a ton of jet lag, like big Europe jet lag with the kids, like 10
21:28 hour time difference.
21:29 But we have done some like East Coast, like three hour.
21:33 And one thing I do feel like people don't give kids enough credit for is they bounce
21:39 back pretty quick.
21:40 Like we are, I feel like we're the older one, like our bodies, like we're all like
21:45 old.
21:46 Yeah, we're struggling.
21:47 My kids like one good night's sleep, like maybe that first night or so where it's like
21:52 we're all over the place.
21:53 But like I get them to crash hard on like one night and they crash and they sleep and
21:59 it's like, we're back.
22:01 We're back.
22:02 We're back in business.
22:03 Like, so I do feel like they definitely are crazy maniacs.
22:08 They're getting tired during the travel process.
22:10 I feel like that part of it, the transition part is challenging.
22:14 But I do feel like once they're rested, they're like fully 100% back in business.
22:19 So in that part, I'm sort of envious.
22:21 I'm like, really?
22:22 Because like, I'm still creaking along.
22:24 So for us, like it's always going east to west, there's not nearly as much jet lag.
22:30 So going west to east is actually the harder part.
22:33 So for us, like, you know, most of our big trips that we've done have been back to the
22:37 US.
22:38 And so coming back, like, I just know that there's going to be five days where it's just
22:41 not be the best.
22:44 And yeah, I agree with Michelle completely that kids bounce back so much faster.
22:48 And it's annoying because you're like, I'm tired.
22:51 Can't we just all take a sleep for another hour?
22:54 I feel like a lot of the tricks that work for adults also work for kids, though.
22:58 Like, just try to make sure that they see sunlight during the daytime and, you know,
23:03 try not to let them nap too much during the day and all of the same things that I try
23:06 to do, I'm like, OK, let me just try this on the little person and hopefully it works
23:10 too.
23:11 Does anyone use melatonin gummies?
23:15 Not yet.
23:16 Have you tried it?
23:17 Does it work?
23:18 Yeah, which is what I find a bit worrying.
23:20 It's very effective.
23:21 For the kids and the adults or just who do you give it to?
23:29 No, the things I've started doing is if we're taking a red eye and we're getting somewhere
23:33 and we don't have early check in, I call it investing.
23:37 I've been investing in a hotel room for the night before, like an Airbnb or a hotel room
23:41 because we have spent like an entire day hanging in the lobby of a hotel until they let us
23:47 in.
23:48 And I never want to do that again, even if it's in, you know, Sevilla or Lisbon.
23:52 They're beautiful.
23:53 But, you know, it's still 6 a.m. and you have cranky kids.
23:57 We also don't really get on local time very well, which ends up working in our favor because
24:03 it means the kids stay up later and we get to sleep in.
24:07 And maybe we don't get as much sunlight, unfortunately, but we do get to go out to
24:12 dinner, which is something that we don't do that often at home.
24:15 So I'm kind of an advocate for just sleep when you're tired.
24:19 But I might be in the minority there.
24:21 Oh, yeah, I have no we have no schedule when we're traveling, like in terms of like bedtime.
24:25 I'm like, what?
24:26 OK, it's 10 o'clock.
24:27 I guess a child should sleep.
24:29 I don't know, in India, which is like where my family is from, there really is like no
24:34 bedtime for children.
24:35 So it's like the whole concept of just keeping your kids like, you know, 7 p.m., put them
24:39 down is so foreign to me.
24:41 So I'm like, OK, trying to do it because I know I should.
24:44 But at the same time, if it doesn't happen, I'm like, eh, I turned up fine.
24:48 It's OK.
24:49 You did.
24:50 You did.
24:51 I'm going to switch gears for a minute and do a little rapid fire yes or no little debates.
25:10 Let's start with something that's been in the news lately.
25:12 Should kids be in first or business class?
25:15 Should they be allowed there?
25:17 Sarika, you had a good response to that at one point.
25:19 Yeah, well, first of all, I don't really get why it's OK.
25:23 Number one, I do get that, you know, kids don't crave the leg room as much as adults
25:27 do because they are smaller.
25:29 But I remember so distinctly when I was eight and we got upgraded and I sat in business
25:34 class and I got ice cream with a real spoon and I felt so fancy.
25:40 I just feel like why are we denying little people those luxuries?
25:44 Like there's so few and far between.
25:47 And why not?
25:48 I also feel like, I don't know, maybe part of it's that kids interrupt the elite, beautiful
25:53 nature of first and business class or something like that, to which I say that I'm just very
25:59 thankful that I that I am living in Nairobi where kids are just considered part of society
26:04 as opposed to these, you know, little tiny creatures that you need to shove in a closet
26:09 and put duct tape over their mouths because, you know, they're not allowed to make any
26:13 noises.
26:15 And I just I don't know, I just feel like parents are responsible for their kids.
26:19 They can bring enough stuff to stimulate the kids, whatever that is, in order to get them
26:24 to not bother other people too much.
26:26 And also a lot of adults in business class are really annoying anyway, so I don't see
26:29 the kids as being any different.
26:31 So that's my that's my rebellious answer.
26:33 Yeah, what do we do about toddler behavior in adults?
26:37 Michelle, have you covered this or did we talk about this, the idea of like an all adult
26:43 cabin or an all adult airplane?
26:47 I mean, it comes up every you know, the issue of kids and flying comes up somewhat regularly.
26:53 I actually just interviewed some Delta flight attendants about this very topic about flying
26:58 with kids and a lot of the struggles, you know, my thing is, first of all, kids are
27:03 people like they're people.
27:05 You know, so even the idea that they wouldn't be allowed in first or business class, like
27:10 if they paid for a seat, they're a person and to like Sarka made a point like, no behavior
27:14 is never a guarantee no matter your age.
27:17 I get it.
27:18 The other thing that I think is really interesting is I think people assume just because I'm
27:23 a mom does not mean that I like the sound of a crying baby.
27:27 It is not a pleasant sound.
27:29 But in no way do I think that the baby shouldn't be there.
27:34 And another thing that I recently thought of is that, you know, there's another argument
27:38 that kind of comes up with kids and flying is, well, why are you even taking them?
27:43 They don't they're not going to remember anything.
27:44 Why are you taking the baby?
27:46 Like, we're also bringing our children to see their family.
27:49 And a lot of the joy that that brings to elderly members of the family who maybe can't fly.
27:56 Even just in this discussion, think about how many of us are talking about trips in
27:59 which we're going to see family.
28:02 So this idea that, yes, it is it's absolutely privileged to be able to fly with and I feel
28:07 so grateful that I can fly with my kids.
28:10 But this idea that I'm just taking, you know, a baby on a vacation that they won't remember,
28:16 that's not always the case.
28:17 So much of the time when people are traveling with kids, they're bringing those children
28:22 to see family members.
28:24 So I just think in general, I wish there was greater acceptance and, you know, just get
28:31 some noise cancelling headphones if you know that that's something that's going to bother
28:35 you.
28:36 The toddler kicking on the back of the seat.
28:38 I get it.
28:39 That's not cool.
28:40 You know, when my kids do that, I'm like horrified and I do everything in my power to like physically
28:45 block them from that's not OK.
28:47 But something like a crying baby.
28:50 I'm sorry, it's just part of what it's my mom has this great saying the art of living
28:54 in society together.
28:56 And that's part of it.
28:57 We all live together in society with babies, with older people, with people with disabilities,
29:02 with people with all kinds of issues.
29:04 You know, I wish I wish there was just more acceptance and more of that kind of community
29:09 felt like Sargasingh and other like embracing where you have other passengers help, you
29:13 know, offering to help with the baby versus shunning, you know, babies and small kids
29:19 on airplanes.
29:20 So that's my you know, that's my tirade.
29:22 I'll get off my soapbox.
29:28 Plus one to everything you just said.
29:31 It drives me nuts.
29:32 Like, I think kids can learn by osmosis, too, in a way.
29:35 Right.
29:36 I mean, this idea that it's you're just bringing a baby along for the ride like Tim, we were
29:40 talking about just the beginning of this podcast.
29:43 I do think my kids are more adaptable because they are and they like the pursuit of new
29:48 things.
29:49 They are curious.
29:50 They have been curious just like through DNA, perhaps, but we are giving them opportunities
29:55 to explore.
29:57 And I wouldn't trade any of that, even if they can't remember anything that happens
30:01 before the age of four.
30:02 You know, also, they they also learn that what they think is normal in one place is
30:07 not normal in another, like even if they don't remember exactly, like they'll remember they
30:12 went to some place where I don't know, toilet paper isn't normal or they always eat fruit
30:16 in the morning.
30:17 So I think it's just like a really nice thing for kids to be able to grow up with that idea
30:20 that that places are different, but people are still living there and living life.
30:26 Amen.
30:27 I mean, those are all such good points, and I'd love to finish off with some of our favorite
30:33 places we've been with our families could be U.S., could be global that you would absolutely
30:39 recommend.
30:40 Sarika, where do you love to go?
30:42 I'll put a plug in for Kenya.
30:45 I think Kenya is such a great family friendly destination.
30:49 You know, Isla has been on I counted, I think, seven or eight safaris.
30:54 And and, you know, she's three.
30:55 So she is a faster animal spotter than most adults that you see.
31:00 They get in the car, she knows all of their names, and she's just like, such so keenly
31:06 observant as a result.
31:08 So it's I feel like going specifically on safari with a child is one of the best things
31:13 that you can do.
31:14 Awesome.
31:15 And what about you?
31:16 I'll put a plug in for Vancouver, Canada.
31:19 We did it back when Nico was two and are just about to turn two.
31:22 We got in that one last trip before they're not a lap child anymore.
31:26 You know, every parent knows.
31:29 And the advantage was no jet lag.
31:32 We were going north.
31:33 We got a little taste of international travel.
31:35 You know, someone could say Canada is a little international travel light, but still another
31:39 country with different customs.
31:42 It's cool.
31:43 So it was a great summer destination versus going somewhere too hot and really forested.
31:48 So lots of hiking and outdoors and along those lines.
31:51 I also have to put another plug and it's so cliche, but the national parks, we got our
31:55 kids those national park passports where you can mark off all the national parks.
32:01 And we're just so excited to go through and mark them off.
32:04 And they have the little junior ranger programs at each national park.
32:08 So I know is, you know, huge during pandemic.
32:11 And they're now I mean, the national parks are never going to get old, right?
32:13 Yeah, Oliver to Yosemite when he was young and all the big open spaces of central Southern
32:19 California have been great.
32:21 We had real fun in Big Sur wading through rivers among the trees.
32:24 And there's a place called Carmel Valley Ranch, which is this sprawling ranch style hotel
32:30 up there.
32:31 Yeah, we just we've made a lot of good memories in California.
32:34 Yosemite has that great evergreen lodge.
32:36 I think maybe Michelle or Tim, you guys recommended it.
32:39 I love that place.
32:41 It's great.
32:42 It's amazing.
32:43 It's so great for families.
32:44 Few last minute favorites.
32:45 I have loved Portugal with little kids.
32:48 It's such a welcoming place for families.
32:51 Everything from like the automatic families get to go first and airport security lines
32:55 to pregnant women get their own parking spots.
32:58 Playgrounds are next level.
32:59 I feel like half of our travel is around like what new playground are we going to discover?
33:04 So we spent a lot of time in like Lisbon playgrounds.
33:08 Scotland, equally, equally welcoming everyone just like like you were saying about Kenya,
33:12 Sarka, that's just like, they're just tiny humans.
33:16 You know, they're not subordinates, so to speak.
33:19 So so much of Europe, I think, acts that way.
33:22 We were just in Italy with them to France.
33:25 So highly recommend those trips.
33:28 I think that's about it.
33:29 That's all the time we have.
33:30 We could talk for like four more hours, I think.
33:32 But we all have work to do.
33:34 And you, you all have busy lives because you are parents.
33:37 So thank you, everyone.
33:40 Happy travels and take care of your tiny humans.
33:44 Thanks so much.
33:49 And that's our episode for today.
33:51 Thank you so much for listening.
33:52 And I hope that you glean some tips if you're a parent about how best to coordinate your
33:58 travels going forward with your kids or if you're not just appreciating how difficult
34:02 it is to move around this world with kids.
34:05 A couple of updates from both Sarka and Michelle.
34:09 They both have taken their trips.
34:12 And Michelle said that their trip went very well.
34:15 The jet lag was nowhere near as bad as she thought it would be.
34:19 As she said during the episode, you know, kids are pretty resilient.
34:22 And she found that her kids powered through most days.
34:24 She did say that Catalina took a monster three hour stroller nap that first morning after
34:30 waking up at 3.30am.
34:32 But she said that even that was kind of convenient because they could still explore while she
34:35 slept.
34:36 And the food suitcase was a huge hit.
34:39 She said it worked out perfectly and allowed the kids, especially Catalina, to transition
34:43 to local food and snacks rather than forcing them to try new things when they were still
34:48 tired and adjusting to a new place and time.
34:51 Michelle said as their supply slowly started to dwindle, they started to experiment with
34:55 local finds and managed to find both Philadelphia cream cheese in Poland and Romania, which
35:03 Catalina loved with pretzel stick dips.
35:05 But Catalina also fell in love with Romanian hot dogs.
35:08 So hey, she tried something new.
35:10 And then they did empty the suitcase and bring it back filled with some toys and other, you
35:14 know, travel souvenirs.
35:15 So total hit there.
35:17 And Sarka is having a wonderful time in London with Isla right now.
35:22 She said that they haven't even had to plan that many activities since Isla's been so
35:26 excited to like take the double-decker bus and the tube.
35:29 And she sent a photo of Isla eating an ice cream cone the size of her head, which I think
35:34 we'll share in our Instagram stories this week.
35:38 They've met friends around the city.
35:39 They did take her to the Ai Weiwei exhibit that included his giant version of Monet's
35:44 water lilies, but made out of Lego bricks, which Isla really loved, even if she didn't
35:48 kind of fully understand the subversive nature of his art.
35:52 So that's it.
35:53 The trips went well.
35:54 And like I said, once Laura gets back from her big trip, we will let you know how it
35:59 goes.
36:00 If you want to follow along with our editors as they travel with their kids, you can do
36:03 so on Instagram.
36:05 Laura is @laura_redmond.
36:08 Sarka is @sarka008.
36:12 Michelle is @michelle_hall-baran.
36:15 And Tim is @timchester.
36:17 And of course, Afar is now on Threads, so please join us there.
36:22 Our handle is @afarmedia.
36:25 Ready for more unpacking?
36:27 Visit afar.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter.
36:30 And Threads.
36:31 If you enjoyed today's exploration, I hope you'll come back for more great stories.
36:35 You can subscribe to Unpacked on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform.
36:41 And be sure to rate and review it.
36:42 It helps other travelers find the show.
36:45 This has been Unpacked, a production of Afar Media.
36:47 The podcast is produced by Aislinn Green and Nikki Galteland.
36:51 Music composition by Chris Collin.
36:53 And remember, the world is complicated.
36:55 We're here to help you unpack it.
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