CLNS Media's Bobby Manning is joined by Chris Mannix of Sports Illustrated to go over the finer details of his piece on Jayson Tatum that made headlines over the last week in Boston.
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00:00Hey, Bobby Manning here. Welcome to the Garn Report, a late week edition here, Thursday as we record this.
00:08And we are excited to welcome Chris Mannix, Sports Illustrated. You see him all the time, NBC Sports Boston.
00:16Talking Celtics, reporting on the NBA at large and the author of the new Jason Tatum cover story on Sports Illustrated.
00:24Welcome in, Chris. Great to have you here. Been wanting to talk to you for a while here on the show, so great to see you here this morning.
00:30Happy to do it, man.
00:33So let's start with Tatum. We can actually start with Tatum and Team USA here before we get into the story.
00:41Interesting position he's in on this team. Obviously, he had the DNP heard around the world in the first game against Serbia and goes back into the starting lineup in game two and has a pretty modest performance.
00:53It's an interesting team. There's a ton of talent here. Joel Embiid, an MVP, takes the DNP in the second game.
01:01But we're in this weird position with Tatum where he's coming off the championship and this huge year for his career where he's one of the ancillary pieces on this team, whether he's playing and taking four shots in this last game here or not playing, which I think is conceivable again at some point during this run here.
01:22It's an interesting position he's in. What have you made of the spot he's on with this roster and the DNP he took in the first game?
01:29I think everybody on this USA basketball roster is an ancillary piece. Aside from LeBron in the starting lineup and Kevin Durant off the bench, there's really no must have in a certain spot type of guys.
01:51You're seeing that with Steve Kerr's rotations in the first two games of these Olympics. Most teams, in the NBA especially, you want consistency. You are succeeding if you have a lineup that's together for 70 games out of the regular season.
02:09What Steve Kerr has decided to do is to match up specifically to his opponents. In the opener, Durant came back. Obviously, he had to take somebody's minutes and it turned out to be Tatum in that situation.
02:22Against South Sudan, a smaller, quicker team, it was Joel Embiid that was the odd man out. I understand the frustration with Steve Kerr at not playing Tatum in that opener, but I think he does make a good point that it's a 40 minute game.
02:39You've got 10 guys in that rotation that are all-star or MVP caliber. I don't think it was a slight on Tatum and what he can do. I just think for the rest of this tournament, Steve Kerr is going to play the matchup game.
02:58When that happens, it's going to mean that a player the caliber of Tatum or Joel Embiid is probably going to be the odd man out.
03:07It's pretty shocking to see it when it happens. The interesting part to me was going to be how Tatum received it. Kerr obviously said after the game that they talked about it beforehand and he received it well.
03:19Tatum actually talked to a couple of reporters out there after the game against South Sudan. They call it a unique situation, not about one player. Competitor in you wants to play, obviously, but I'm not here to make it a story, make it about myself.
03:33We won. I was glad to get out there and play again. There was a lot of chatter over the last few days, but I was in good spirits. I had a good attitude about it, not holding grudges or anything.
03:43Typical Tatum, and I expected him to not make a big deal about it. But you do wonder because Tatum sacrificed shots with the Celtics this year, became more of a passer, changed his role, did little things when the shot wasn't there for him.
03:59So we've seen him adjust to adverse circumstances with the Celtics just this past year. But I was thinking, and I didn't do a deep dive or anything like it on it, but this had to have been the first DNP CD of maybe his life.
04:14So this is a different kind of situation for him. And I know I was seeing some chatter about him talking about the accomplishments of the last year and everything. He's kind of checked off there and this is a new situation for him here.
04:30So what I could glean from it is that he's going to roll with it, but I don't think he loves it.
04:37No, I don't think he loves it either. And I talked to a few people in his inner circle after that DNP CD happened and they were frustrated for him. They were shocked that Tatum was not in that rotation in the opener.
04:55But I think Tatum is playing it exactly the right way. You don't want to be the guy that's griping over minutes after a win in the Olympics. You just don't want to be that guy.
05:05I can understand the whiplash that Jason Tatum has because I don't think there's a player in basketball that's had a better one month stretch than Tatum from winning a championship to signing a $350 million extension to being on the cover of NBA 2K.
05:22This guy's had quite the run going on where he has been getting his accolades and the respect he deserves. So I get the feeling of, oh damn, this is a new feeling for him. But you just got to roll with it.
05:37I mean, look, this team is not going to need their guys to be alphas, right? They shot 43% from three against South Sudan. Steph Curry was 0 for 6. Steph Curry's struggling with this.
05:49So this is just kind of a team that's going to be pieced together with one or two guys that have the 18 to 20 point games and a whole bunch of other guys that have games like Tatum had in the second game.
06:07We have a couple of points, four or five rebounds. Maybe you get a steal, a block. That's just going to be the way it goes. There's not going to be a lot of outstanding statistics from USA basketball individually in this tournament.
06:22What does he look like to you when he's actually been out there, the exhibitions, this past game here? Not a ton of shots. The three-pointer to me is interesting too, because he's only taken seven across six games here and he is 0 for seven. He's 0 for 11 on jump shots.
06:38And that's something that does go back to the playoffs a little bit for him. The jump shot has eluded him a little bit in recent months. He had a strong regular season from three, but he has gone in these waves with his three-point shooting and he's in this extended run where he hasn't been able to find it.
06:54I was looking at the two-point percentage. He's actually pretty good from there, 59% through this run so far. So when he's taken shots around the rim, that's mostly been what he's done offensively. He's finished in there, but he just hasn't gotten many shot opportunities here.
07:09And when he has shot the threes at the very least, the one he took in this game went off the backboard. He is in the slump that goes back to the playoffs a little bit. And in terms of what we tangibly look at going into next year for the Celtics, you do wonder where he's at with that jump shot.
07:24Yeah, I sort of separate them to a degree though, because there's not a lot of fluidity to the USA basketball offense. It's hard to create that kind of fluidity when you have a team that didn't really know each other, at least in terms of playing together until early July.
07:42When I watch USA basketball, it's a lot of high pick and roll, a lot of isolation, a lot of two-man game. Steve Kerr's slowly trying to incorporate some more complicated sets, but if you watch the teams they're playing against, it's totally different.
07:59Germany, which has been playing together for a decade, they run a fairly comprehensive offense. Even South Sudan, the youngest country to ever make the Olympics, they've had a bunch of guys that have mostly been playing together for the last four or five years.
08:15The shots that Tatum's getting, they're not the kind of shots he was getting in Boston. He's not getting the driving kick type of shots, corner threes, things like that. He's certainly not getting the 20-25 touches per game that he's used to getting.
08:31It's going to be an adjustment. I do agree. Next season, when we get into the year, if he's still missing with that three-point shot, you start talking about a different conversation. As far as this goes, I love that he is going to the basket and he is trying to play in transition.
08:48I think that's where a lot of his points are going to be scored. Attacking the rim, getting to the free throw line like he did really well with the Celtics this past year. Getting clean, in rhythm, open threes with this team is going to be challenging, I think. Not just for Tatum, but for all these guys.
09:08I'm interested to see what that approach is for him going into next year. Obviously, he sees double teams, sometimes triple teams in the finals there with the Celtics and has to pass out of those. The finishing at the rim has just grown year in and year out. Obviously, he's grown stronger too. I do wonder where his shot selection is going to go into the future of his career.
09:28Obviously, there's a team that loves to take threes, Boston. He's been the guy off the dribble that's had to take a lot of them just to get the volume up that they want under Joe Mizzou here. But the percentage you're looking for in those shots isn't always there for him.
09:42Sometimes it's about not shooting them. You mentioned the finals. Regardless of what Jason Kidd said during the finals, Tatum was the guy they were after, trying to lock down. He was the star. I talked to a couple of Mavericks coaches in the aftermath and they were talking to me about the multi-pronged defenses that they were throwing at him.
10:08Sometimes, literally double teaming him. Almost every time, making sure he saw two bodies in front of him. That old James Harden defense that we saw with Harden when he was with Houston. Just always seeing multiple defenders. One of the strengths I thought Tatum did show during those finals was not forcing it as often as maybe he would have a couple of years ago.
10:28That's going to be the next layer of his development. Those kinds of defenses are not going anywhere. They're going to keep loading up on him like that and trying to limit his one-on-one situations, open looks. If he continues to grow as a passer, a playmaker, and to your point, getting to the rim, using that strength, getting to the free-throw line, double-digit times per game, I think that's going to more than make up for any kind of erratic shooting that might arise.
10:56It's interesting because he was in a different role earlier in his career. It's almost funny to look at a lot of the chat. I don't know how much you're on Twitter, Chris, but a lot of the fans are talking about, oh, he looked like this in 2020 and he's scoring 60 points in 2021. He's in this more volume shooting, volume scoring role back then. Now you look at his game and sometimes it's more subtle, his impact on a game.
11:23The passing certainly in the finals, you see it there. His rebounding has grown. The defense, he's honed in on becoming a borderline all-defense caliber guy. The scoring is not as central to his impact at this point. I know we'll get into your story a little bit, but one of the things he talks about in there is the respect of what this team has accomplished collectively, not being emulated in the awards as much.
11:47Listen, when you're going up against a Luka and Embiid and some of these guys, Jokic, who are putting up these monumental all-time stat lines, it's tough to break into that MVP level role. That's why we nitpick performances like this from him here, because that's what he's trying to get to. He's trying to get to being that number one player in the league. He's not there yet. He's on the precipice of it.
12:09But how difficult do you think it's going to be to parse his performances into the future of his career, where like you said, he's seeing these double teams, these crowds, he has to pass a lot of the time teams are playing him to not score. And sometimes his impact just ends up being a little more subtle there. He does have to become one of these guys that is scoring, is putting up these stat sheets at the highest level to win MVP at this point.
12:33But to me, it becomes difficult to evaluate his game sometimes just because of the width of his impact. Like he has to do so many things. It almost feels like he's like a master or none sometimes, but he can do everything. So he's one of these guys. I don't know who you'd compare him to all the time at this point, but there's just so many things he does, but there's not one thing that stands out as, oh, he's the elite. He's the best at this at this point in his career.
12:59Yeah, I think you judge him for the next couple of years, at least by team success. Like I think his window for now of winning an MVP is probably closed because of the talent around him, because statistically, he's not going to put up the kind of numbers that Luca is probably going to put up next year.
13:23Even Jokic year after year, they're just going to dip just enough, not enough to take him off like an all NBA first team, but enough to keep him in that four to six range on an MVP ballot. But if you're winning a championship, who gives a damn, right?
13:40Like if you're racking up and succeeding on a team level, then it really doesn't matter. I mean, a guy that I think you might be able to compare him to in the next couple of years might even be Durant. And when Durant was with Golden State for those few years where they weren't MVP years, but when it got to the postseason, that's where Durant made his mark.
14:07Clutch time moments, big shots in big games. I mean, you can say what you want about Kevin Durant, but that Golden State team is probably not winning those two championships without him, especially the way he played the finals against Cleveland. I mean, he was outstanding in those performances.
14:25So I think it's overall team success and how he performs in those types of situations. If he goes through a regular season where he's a top 10 player in the NBA, top 10 player in the MVP, fine. But then he gets to the playoffs, if he's kind of the guy they can count on down the stretch to make plays and make shots, I think that's the definition of success for Tatum.
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16:48Chris, let's get into your Sports Illustrated story. Really cool story. I'm sure it was very enjoyable to do it. You got the photo shoot there. You got this pullout of, you know, you're talking to Bob Cousy. You're talking to Jason Tatum just about this point in Celtics history here. And that is one thing that I love about Tatum is he does embrace the history. He does embrace, you know, Max always tells us his story about how when Tatum saw the documentary about the Celtics Lakers.
17:16He was like, damn, I didn't know you were like that Cedric Maxwell. So it's a cool story here. And it, you know, I think Tatum spoke pretty honestly about like we just mentioned the award situation he's in, the relationship with Brown, you know, a lot of different stuff in here.
17:31So what was it just like to do this story? What was the process like of going through it? Obviously it was after the championship there. How'd you just find Jason at that point in his life after winning that first title? And what was it like to talk to him about all the things you did here?
17:47Well, it came together really fast. Um, one of the reasons that my bosses wanted a Celtics cover is because this was the 70th anniversary issue of sports illustrated and, uh, the Celtics, in addition to being the winning his team in NBA history is all.
18:05They also became with that recent championship, uh, the winning his team in sports illustrates history, right? So the 70 year history of the magazine, the Celtics have won more championships than any team, um, across, uh, all major sports leagues.
18:19And, you know, there was, uh, I can, an SI connection there with Bob Cousy, uh, being the first NBA player to ever appear on the cover back in 1956, their first, uh, championship year. And of course Tatum, uh, being the star of this most recent, uh, championship team.
18:38So, you know, connecting those two was kind of what, uh, what I set out to do. And, and really the honest answer is I only had like a few days to do it, to put it together because the way magazines work nowadays is you got to file stories that are published in, you know, late July in early to mid or late mid to late June.
18:56So it's, it, it was a fast process. And look, originally we had a couple of different ideas. We were thinking about getting Tatum and Cousy on the cover together to pose that that didn't work out for logistical reasons.
19:07Uh, you know, we talked about getting Jalen Brown involved. He was out of town immediately after winning, uh, that chance winning the championship. So, um, it, it became kind of a Tatum centric story with a, a Bob Cousy slant.
19:20And, and I had the most fun, I think, you know, talking to Tatum to your point about kind of how his connection with the Celtics has grown, because this was a guy that grew up in St.
19:32Louis worshiping Kobe Bryant. Like he did not know anything about the Celtics. Like he knew who Larry Bird was, but I knew who Paul Pierce was because Paul was kind of that generation.
19:42But, you know, you put up a Facebook of, you know, Havlicek and Satch Sanders and some of the guys from yesteryear, and he's, he's probably not IDing them, um, at all.
19:54So his, his connection with the Celtics and his desire to be known as one of those all time greats, um, you know, that, that, that was one of the more interesting parts of, of our conversation with Cousy, you know, Cousy's body is, is, is a train wreck.
20:09He'll be the first to admit that, but his, his mind is still sharp as a tack. Like he still has it all there upstairs. I think it's gonna be 96 in a couple of days, actually. So he's, he's, it's incredible that, um, he's still as sharp as, as he is.
20:23And we just got into a lot of the, the kind of history back then of, of what it was like to, uh, to play at an era where you, you kind of had to have two jobs to be an NBA player.
20:36Like Cousy was running camps to make money in the off season and needed that shoe deal or the shoe, shoe money, uh, that came in and, and Cousy takes a lot of pride in kind of being the foundation for what has become of like the players association.
20:52What has become how the money has changed over the years. I mean, Cousy founded the NBA players association and he made a joke to me about how he's like, look, I held out at one point for $9,000. So Jalen Brown could get his 300 million.
21:07So, you know, Cousy not only has pride in, in what he accomplished as a player, but he also takes a lot of pride in what the work he was, he did early on to lay the foundation for the union and what it has meant to player salaries moving forward.
21:23Yeah. And again, Jalen Brown, a little bit here in the story to he and Tatum relationship. It's interesting as we record this Gordon Hayward retired today, and that was the genesis of Tatum moving into the starting lineup.
21:37Those guys taking bigger roles in their first and second years and their partnership just vaulting from that point on, they make these finals that first year with Hayward and Irving out.
21:46And from that point on, it's just been winning for those two guys. And you go through these swells of, you know, I think you've talked about it right from when Brown was drafted this trade rumors, right from when Tatum's drafted this trade rumors.
21:59And those guys are just dealing with their partnership on a public level through these highs and lows. 2021, it got pretty tenuous. 2022, you're saying, can they play together?
22:09And then over the next handful of years, they grow that partnership to a championship level here. And it's, it's pretty amazing to look back on just being around them myself. I felt like both of them to some degree, don't love talking about it just because there's been so much made of it publicly over the last handful of years, especially.
22:27But Tatum in the story sounded pretty honest in terms of, you know, obviously the quote everybody's talking about here is him saying, you know, he probably should have had Brown's back publicly at different points, you know, during some of the, maybe those trade sagas are just different points where that relationship was being discussed.
22:42How'd that come up here? And what did you, what did you make of that comment by him here saying that, you know, maybe I should have had Jalen's back of whether it was the Kevin Durant trade saga, whatever situation it might've been.
22:55Yeah, I opened the door to it and I pushed pretty hard to, to get some, to get an honest reaction from him, uh, on it. And look, I, you've been around them as long as I have.
23:05Like I first started writing about their relationship back in 2020 in the bubble when, when I was in there and that was the first time I got to spend time talking to both of those guys about their history.
23:17I mean, look, they were like, you know, teammates at these summer camps. They've known each other for years. And, you know, Jalen Brown was one of the guys that pushed for the drafting of Jason Tatum.
23:26That's a story that's been well-documented when Danny Ainge called Jalen said, what do you think of this guy? And Jalen gave him, um, his full-throated support.
23:34Um, so they've always had a good and healthy relationship. What they are not and what they will probably never be is, you know, the, these thickest thieves friends that do everything together.
23:46They're just two very different guys who lived their lives in very different ways off the court. That's not a bad thing. And it's certainly not something that's, you know, rare in today's NBA.
23:58Not every set of great teammates hangs out, you know, on, on off days, but that's just the, the way that, that they are and the way that they're always going to be.
24:07And Tatum, if you, if you ask him and I did this summer back in 2020, and I did it in 2022, when I put the Celtics on the cover, uh, then like, uh, he, he will tell you that he loves playing with Jalen Brown.
24:20He only wants to play with Jalen Brown. What he hasn't done over the years. And what, as he says in the story, he regrets is that he has been more proactive about saying that, like he'll answer your question about it.
24:32And he'll do it in a way that tells you that he wants Jalen to be around, but like when rumors come up, um, he's not out there on social media or out there taking his, his opinion to the media that, uh, he doesn't want this stuff to happen.
24:48He wants to play with Jalen. That's something I think that if he could go back in time and do it differently over the years, he would do it a lot differently because his attitude was always like, I'm just going to stay out of it.
25:00I'm going to stay above the fray here. Like, you know, I don't need to inject my opinion into all this. I'll let the team do whatever it wants to do.
25:08But I think if he could do it all over again, you know, when this stuff came up with Kawhi Leonard and Anthony Davis and Kevin Durant, I think he'd be more vocal about saying like, yeah, great players, but we got a great team.
25:20We got Jalen Brown, our chemistry works. We're going to win together. Um, that's something that definitely, uh, I found weighed on Tatum during our conversation.
25:31Yeah. And that Durant one in particular, it's crazy to look back on. Cause when that rumor emerged, crazy playing at that level. Yeah. I sat here and I'm like, you have to consider it. You have to look into a trade like that, given the player Durant is.
25:45And now when you look back on it and I know the reporting at the time was, it would have been Brown and white and picks for years. That probably would have been a bad move for Boston.
25:55Given that Brown was about to grow into a finals MVP caliber player there. And that summer, when you look back on it, you didn't hear much from Tatum. You didn't hear much from the organization. And that rumor festered for weeks, maybe even a month plus there, where you're like, are you doing Brown for Durant? Would you trade him? Would you not? Is he going to be here?
26:13And then it followed into that next season where you're debating that extension there. And that's kind of crazy to look back on now too, where you're like 300 million for Jalen. And that looks like a slam dunk given the player he's, he's become now. So that year or two for Jalen there was pretty important too. And he made his mind known through many different interviews and things.
26:30He said at that time that he wanted the appreciation. He wanted to be more, you know, I guess just appreciate is the right way to say it. And whether it's a contract or the awards now, and he obviously has shared his gripes about the team USA process this summer now as well. But it's amazing given where he was in this dynamic, where he's marginalized and thrown down to that number two behind Tatum a lot of the time that he comes out this summer.
26:59Obviously after securing what was the largest contract in NBA history as finals MVP, East finals MVP. And there's obviously still a chip on his shoulder here. What do you see with the USA process? But his dynamic in this process has been pretty amazing to watch too.
27:14Yeah. And you know, on, on the trade rumors, like I think they've all bothered Jalen Brown to some degree, but the 2022 stuff I know really bothered him. When I did the cover story that had Jalen and Jason and Marcus smart on the cover.
27:31Um, one of the interviews I did was with email, uh, because the story was basically written before the stuff with email came up and he had to, to, to leave the team. Um, and it's an interview that will be forever lost to the digital archives because it doesn't have any relevance anymore.
27:49But one of the conversations we had in that, that, that interview was about, you know, he acknowledged the need to kind of heal things or, you know, clear things up with Jalen Brown going into, you know, that training camp as they prepared to go into that training camp.
28:05He and Brad Stephens had some repair work to do because Jalen, from what I was told was upset to see his name in trade rumors just weeks after he helped lead that team to the finals and coming off a brilliant year with the Celtics. So, um, you know, that was, was one of those situations where I think there was tension, not with Jalen and Jason, but tension, uh, with Jalen and the team.
28:32And maybe going back, that's another example of where Jason could have been more proactive and saying, you know, forget all this. Like we just, we're, we're right there knocking on the doorstep of winning a championship. Um, this is the team that we want. But at the same time, as I think of it, like another part of the conversation I had with Jason was that he said to me, I was asking about kind of like, did you ever have any doubts, right.
28:53About whether you could do it with his team could do it. He talks specifically about that summer of 2022, where they get beaten the finals by golden state. Jason does not play well in that series. And he told me he went into that off season, you know, wondering like, am I the guy? Like, can I be the guy like, you know, a Steph, like a KD, like a Giannis more recently? Um, can I be the guy to lead a team to a championship? There was doubt creeping in for several weeks during that off season.
29:22Now eventually got over it, got past it. And, um, obviously here we are today, but you know, while all that stuff with Jalen Brown and Kevin Durant was going on, I think Jason for a while was going through his own kind of crisis of confidence and trying to figure out sort of his place, uh, in the NBA. So it was kind of a, a perfect storm of, of weird events that off season that, that led to everything that happened.
29:46Yeah. And you, you of course can go find that story over on sports illustrated. The, uh, 70th anniversary edition is out now as well. I want to get your thoughts on two of the other biggest stories of the off season with the Celtics.
29:58Obviously, Christoph Porzingis is going to miss a good chunk of the season here after the injury he suffered in the finals. And that game one is going to go down as maybe the moment of the championship run, the most exciting moment alongside Pritchard's half court heave and all the other stuff you saw in that series.
30:16But, uh, after coming back from the injury, obviously a major fallout here where he's going to have to miss a significant portion of time. And this team affirmed itself in many ways last year, they want a ton of games with Porzingis out, but they never had to play without him for this long.
30:31And so you're looking at Al Horford as a starter next year, they bring back Tillman, they bring back Coronet, uh, Cato's back as well. So there's a number of options in that front court, and I'm sure they can play smaller as well to try to get through this, uh, span without him.
30:45But I'm interested to see how it plays out because Horford is another year older. All those depth guys at center or specialist or a guy who hasn't played a ton in the NBA and Cato's a case there. So a team coming off a championship that had a long run. Sometimes you have those hangover situations going in the next year.
31:03It doesn't help that you're missing this pivotal of a guy for this long here. So I'm interested to see how it plays out. They showed they can play without him last year, but this is going to be a challenge for them from the, from the jump next year.
31:18I think it's going to be really challenging. And I think going into the new year, uh, you know, going into January 1st, uh, I think it's possible, maybe even likely that they're kind of a very average team or looking like it's sort of in the middle of the Eastern conference playoff bracket, you know, going into kind of that mid season point because I mean, yeah, they, they won games without Porzingis, but to your point, he was in the mix, right?
31:47He was playing, you know, two out of every four, three out every five or whatever it was. Um, and Horford, even though he seems to be ageless, uh, you do wonder at age 38, just how many minutes can you play him? Um, he's obviously not going to play many back-to-backs, many three games in four nights.
32:05And then you're counting on guys like Tillman and Cornette and some of the younger unproven guys to play more substantial minutes. And look, I think Denver is a good, you know, kind of example to look at like Denver had a hangover last season, like Denver, they were tired.
32:23They maybe weren't as motivated early on. Um, they were in a different position than they were the year before where instead of being the hunter, they were the hunted and they got everybody's best shot regardless of who was out on the floor, uh, every single night. I think the South is going to expect a lot of that. I mean, they've got all these guys. Like, I think it's great to play for USA basketball, but when do any of these guys get any downtime? Like when is the vacation coming for, for Tatum, for, uh, for drew holiday? Right? Like I saw some things on Tatum's schedule.
32:51Like he's coming back from the Olympics, got a golf tournament coming up. I'm sure he's got other obligations. He's got to do, uh, in August, early September. Like there's only going to be, you know, a matter of weeks for them to really power down and get ready for the next season. And, you know, I think that's going to cost them something. I do think they're going to do struggle out of the gate. I do think they're going to have kind of a mediocre start to, to next season.
33:15Now that may not matter because if they get to February and Porzingis is back and everybody's a little bit more rested and healthy, uh, then they can go on a run of the second half of the season. But I think this next year is going to be a pretty challenging one. I think for Joe Missoula, for the front office, for, for all the guys there and trying to find a way to get off to at least a decent start, because I think it's going to be a struggle early on.
33:38Yeah. And this other one that shocked everybody, Wick Grosbeck selling the team. Uh, we'll see what happens with the ownership shift here. It seems at least early on that it probably is going to go to Peg Liuka and maybe some other people get involved there. Uh, but Wick Grosbeck comes out, uh, basically a week after the season, two weeks after the season ends. And, you know, they announced that he's selling the team and you get the stories about his father's involvement and all that stuff.
34:06There. So this is an interesting one. Probably wouldn't be as interesting if there wasn't such a big money question around this team over the next year or two. And obviously their payroll is going to balloon plus tax to 500 million in 2026 following this next season here. So who's the owner going to be? What's the money situation? What's their willingness to pay that level or even ability to pay that level of salary plus tax going forward beyond the Grosbeck area?
34:36Here's a major, major question for this team. Obviously they're going to run it back this year, but who's in control? Who's making decisions in 2026? Can they maintain this much of a payroll after extending holiday white Tatum as well as Sam Hauser over the last handful of weeks here?
34:53This is a big story. It might not interest people a ton and all the different things we're talking about here, but I'm just fascinated by how this is going to play out here and everything I'm hearing is that they're going to take the money year by year and just see where they are contention wise, regardless of where this ownership situation goes. But Chris, whoever controls the team at that point is ultimately going to make the call of how much they're spending and what the budget is going into the future.
35:16I think year by year is exactly how they're going to take it. I think the only thing that can protect this roster and keep it intact year after year is a championship, honestly. I think that just getting to the Eastern Conference finals, just getting to the finals is not enough to be certain that ownership, whether it's the Grosbeck family or whoever comes in and buys the majority of the team, is going to be there.
35:46That's the only thing that's going to ensure that they keep this team together because some of the deals they've done over the last couple of months and into last season, they've signed guys to extension, they've locked guys down, guys like Holiday and guys like White and guys like Sam Hauser, but they're signed to very tradable contracts.
36:10You can move off these deals pretty quickly if you wanted to in the offseason. All these guys I mentioned are appealing players. They will be desirable on the trade market. So if next season for some reason is a flop and they get beat in the second round for whatever reason, I would think somebody would have to go.
36:28Sam Hauser, look, that's a great deal on the surface for Sam Hauser, but you and I both know that it's not in a vacuum here. That Sam Hauser contract, it costs a lot when it comes to tax penalties with this team, exponentially more when it comes to tax penalties.
36:44So I think it's the attitude for the Celtics and the players in that locker room is going to have to be championship robust. If they win a championship next year, I am certain the entire group will be run back again. Maybe you have to figure out where Al Horford's at at that point in his career, what kind of contract that he'd be worth at that point, but you're going to bring back Hauser and Holiday and White and all the key pieces on that team.
37:09If not, I think we'll be talking about a pared down roster in the future. Even though owning an NBA team is probably one of the most lucrative propositions in sports or in any business because you can just turn around and sell it for $5 or $6 billion if you want, these tax penalties are massive. You're talking about $300, $400 million in overall payroll and penalties.
37:33Even the richest of owners don't really want to pay that. Now, too, you have all the issues that come with having a team that's into that second apron, the inability to do deals because you're paying that much money. It's a reality of this team. Every year they go into, for the next two or three years, it's got to be championship robust because without a championship, you run the risk that ownership is going to break this team apart.
37:58Have you heard anything about who could get involved in this sale? Is it going to be pretty similar faces you feel like, or could there be a big tech finance name, Bezos type coming in here and shocking everybody with a big bid for this team?
38:14One thing I've heard consistently is that people inside the Celtics, including people associated with the Grousbeck family, they would like to do a deal with Pagliuca. They would like to keep some continuity with ownership. That would be a seamless transition. I don't know that Pagliuca would welcome the idea of Wick continuing to be the governor of that team.
38:37Pag's a basketball guy. I think Pag's really wants to be the team governor. I think he wants to be the face of ownership with that team. That may be a bit of a thorny situation to unpack, but if he has the money and if he can put together the money, I think there's motivation to get a deal done there.
38:57All that being said, I don't think he's getting a hometown discount for this. I think obviously one of the reasons that this team is being put up for sale is that H. Irving Grousbeck, who owns most of this team, is trying to get his affairs together. They said that effectively in the statement.
39:15They want to get as much money as they possibly can for this team. NBA team valuations have never been higher. I do believe it is going to go to the highest bidder. I've not heard about an outside bidder as of yet. What I have heard is that they are going to open this thing up. If somebody comes out there and says, we'll give you an extra $340 million more for this team than someone like Pagliuca or somebody else might be willing to bid, it's going to go to that high bidder.
39:41It's just as simple as that. I do think we've got a long way to go with this ownership process because I think it will be an open process for others to bid on.
40:11I'm trying to take a vacation at some point, man. All of a sudden, you're into August, you're talking NBA preview issue, which is blowing my mind that I'm already starting to get into that. Hopefully, a little bit of downtime. I do think next season is going to be interesting. I think it's a totally different challenge to go from the years they spent clawing their way up the ladder to win a championship.
40:39To being the team that has a championship and trying to defend it. It's challenging. Fortunately for them, you've got Drew Holiday who knows a little bit what that's like. You've got some guys there that have a little bit more experience. I think there's going to be some rough nights next season with the Celtics, especially in the first couple of months while Porzingis is out.
41:03There's some good teams out there too. Milwaukee, New York, Oklahoma, I think is coming this year. They're going to have some challenges for sure. I appreciate you stopping by, Chris. Always wanted to get you on here. It was a great time talking to you. Check him out, Sports Illustrated. Check out his cover story on Tatum and the Celtics. Of course, you'll be on NBC Sports Boston next year. As always, appreciate it, Chris. Good talking to you here.
41:28You got it, Bobby. Anytime.