„Die ethnische Säuberung Palästinas“ an der Christian-Albrecht-Universität zu Kiel im Rahmen der Kulturwochen Nahost – radius of art
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00:30We will do everything we can to help you with this technique.
00:40I think I can speak loud enough, I'll try.
00:42Mr. Student Council, please vote, I hope it works.
00:46I would like to go back to 1947.
00:49Okay, all right.
00:51I would like to go back to 1947.
00:54Mr. Pape, you said,
00:56we don't know what would have happened if the Palestinians had voted in the day.
01:02But in this case, I would like to say,
01:04the Palestinians provide every opportunity to provide an opportunity.
01:08That's his favorite saying.
01:10But I would like to say, Ben-Gurion said back then,
01:14we don't speak of a Jewish state in Palestine,
01:18but of Palestine as a Jewish state.
01:22That means it was completely clear for the Zionists
01:25that all of Palestine should become a Jewish state.
01:28So the Palestinians couldn't have done anything anyway,
01:31even if they had voted, nothing would have changed in my opinion.
01:56even before the archives were opened.
01:59And he writes that, knowing also Ben-Gurion personally,
02:04that there was never any willingness on the part of David Ben-Gurion
02:10to share the country with the Palestinians.
02:14I mentioned it the way I did because,
02:17after all, we really cannot know what would have happened.
02:23We can guess, and I agree.
02:25I think I would share your guess.
02:27I think you're right.
02:28Even if the Palestinians would have accepted the partition resolution,
02:33I think the ethnic cleansing of Palestine would have happened anyway.
02:38However, we have to be careful because we don't know.
02:42What is more important to my mind,
02:45which I find very difficult to explain to young Israelis,
02:50is the fact that the political leadership in Palestine
02:54did not accept the partition resolution
02:57does not justify the expulsion, the massacres,
03:02and the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.
03:05This is something which is very difficult to convey to an Israeli public.
03:11So I never waste too much time to argue with them,
03:16but the Palestinians were wrong not to accept the partition resolution.
03:19I said, all right, let's say that they were wrong.
03:22Does this explain or does this give the right to the Israeli army
03:30to commit more than 30 massacres
03:33in which more than 3,000 or 4,000 innocent Palestinians lost their lives?
03:41Does this justify the demolition of 500 villages, of 12 towns?
03:48Or does this also justify not allowing people to return to their homes?
03:55For me, the answer is clearly no.
03:58And if I will find the formula by which we can arouse in the young Israelis
04:04this ethical, moral sensibility, I think we can move forward.
04:34The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a question of refugees.
04:39For several years, the Israeli political elite has been using two arguments.
04:49First of all, let's compare.
04:55On the one hand, we have 750,000 Palestinian refugees.
05:01But on the other hand, we have more than 900,000 Jewish refugees,
05:05who call themselves Jewish refugees.
05:08Let's first ask about this.
05:10Secondly, it will be, unfortunately, also on the Palestinian side,
05:15to mention again and again that 330,000, if not a little more,
05:21Palestinian refugees live within Israel.
05:26The Israeli political elite simply says that we are no longer refugees,
05:31although it is only two or three kilometers away from their destroyed village,
05:37which has not yet been built, where they live.
05:40They are Israeli citizens. Their definition is now different.
05:43We also know that there are legal decisions within Israel that give them the right to return.
05:50This will be forgotten as advice.
05:52This is how history is taught.
05:57The third question I have,
06:01we read a lot from you,
06:05but also from the criticism of your colleagues,
06:10because historians have been mentioned in the speech.
06:15This is something that we,
06:18and now you have our colleagues who are active here,
06:21would like to be confronted with.
06:23I would like to hear your opinion on this.
06:49first and foremost as individuals.
06:53In other words, people who became refugees
06:57have in the international law the right to go back to their homes
07:03when it is possible to go back.
07:08Every Palestinian I know would tell you
07:11that they would be willing to join any Iraqi Jew,
07:16Egyptian Jew, Moroccan Jew,
07:18who wants to go back to Iraq, Morocco, or Egypt
07:24to try and achieve that goal.
07:28However, as we know,
07:30the Jews who left the Arab country,
07:33not all of them were expelled by the way,
07:35but the Jews who left the Arab country
07:37wanted to go to Israel.
07:40That's at least the Israeli Zionist narrative.
07:44They wanted to come to Israel.
07:46That's what Zionism is all about.
07:48All the Jews, either they know it or they don't know it,
07:52but they want to go to Israel.
07:54So if, I don't understand it,
07:56if we wanted them to go to Israel,
07:58why are you saying that their situation
08:01is similar to the people who were expelled by force
08:06by the Palestinians?
08:08So I think these are two different issues.
08:11Definitely I think there is justification
08:14for the Jews who came from Arab countries
08:17to receive the same treatment
08:19as Jews who came from Europe,
08:21that compensation, rights,
08:23even the right of return if they want.
08:26But definitely one should not negate
08:30or deny this right to the Palestinian refugees.
08:33So I really think it's a shaky Israeli argument
08:36that I never saw it convincing anyone too far.
08:40The second point is very important.
08:42I think you're right.
08:43There are these people who we call now
08:46the internal refugees.
08:48And I always think that their political talent
08:52has not come yet, but it will come.
08:55I think because we were all slaves
08:58of the idea of the two-state solution
09:01and the Oslo process,
09:03which has totally excluded
09:06two very important Palestinian groups
09:09from the peace process.
09:11The refugees, wherever they are,
09:13and the Palestinians inside Israel.
09:16I think one day,
09:17when a genuine peace process would begin,
09:20these people would become very important
09:23because they are Israeli citizens,
09:26they are Palestinian refugees,
09:28they embody in many ways
09:30different manifestations of what it means
09:33to be a Palestinian.
09:35I also think about them a lot,
09:38and I know many of them personally,
09:40because I sometimes think
09:42it's far worse to be a refugee
09:46five meters from your home
09:49than to be a refugee 500 miles from your home.
09:53If you are a refugee five meters from your home
09:56and you see the moment someone else
09:58gets into your house,
10:00throws out what he doesn't like,
10:02uses what he wants,
10:04uses your house, your living room,
10:06I think these people in many ways
10:09suffered more than any other refugee in the world
10:12because they saw on a daily basis
10:15the dispossession of their life,
10:18house, and identity.
10:21Your last point was...
10:25Yeah.
10:27I think that there is a legitimate debate
10:32between historians about facts
10:35and about the interpretation of facts.
10:38I think the interesting thing
10:40that happened to the debate
10:42about 1948 in Israel
10:45between Israeli historians
10:47such as Benny Morris and myself
10:49and others is that
10:51we agree about the facts.
10:54We don't agree about
10:56the moral interpretation of the facts.
10:58It's not even a philosophical interpretation of facts.
11:01If someone says
11:03this is a justified ethnic cleansing
11:06and the mistake of Israel was that
11:09it did not ethnically cleanse everyone
11:13and Israel should have the right to do it again
11:16if it would be threatened.
11:18This is not an argument about facts.
11:21This is an argument about ethics
11:24or morality.
11:27Someone who is a very respected guest in this country
11:30who is now the dean of the law faculty
11:32at Haifa University said once
11:34and in Israel you can say that.
11:36He said
11:38it would have been much better
11:40for the Palestinians of the West Bank
11:42and the Gaza Strip
11:44if they were expelled in 1948
11:46because then we would not have
11:48an occupation today.
11:52This is the kind of debate
11:54I decided to leave behind me
11:56and go to England
11:58where they have their own problems
12:00but they don't have such civility.
12:25I was born in Haifa
12:29and like most of the Ashkenazi Jews
12:33the Jews who came from European origin
12:35we lived on the mountain.
12:37The Palestinians in Haifa live at the bottom.
12:41As my mother used to joke
12:44you only go there if you have a passport.
12:48So we hardly came in contact
12:51with any Palestinians.
12:53It was quite amazing.
12:54You could live in a city
12:56where at least 20% of the population
12:59were still Palestinians
13:01and not meet them, not see them.
13:04And I think
13:06that's why the educational system
13:09or your school
13:11was like a safe haven.
13:13You had no idea
13:15of what was going on around you.
13:18You knew there were wars.
13:20You knew there were Arabs.
13:22But they were something very alien.
13:27Something very strange.
13:29My first contact was
13:31when I was 16
13:33and I began to leave the house
13:36on my own trips and journeys
13:38and I found out that there are Palestinians
13:41and there are Arabs and so on.
13:43The other way of answering your question
13:46is that the educational system in Israel
13:49is very indoctrinating.
13:51It's an indoctrinating educational system.
13:54It produces a very clear perception of reality.
14:00I think with the risk of generalizing
14:04I think most of the graduates
14:07I say most, most of the graduates
14:09of the Israeli Jewish educational system
14:13end up the education
14:15with a very clear image
14:18of who is an Arab, who is a Muslim,
14:20who is a Palestinian.
14:22It's a very dehumanized image.
14:25It's a very negative image.
14:29They grow up with a very clear sense
14:33of the historical right.
14:36Most of the messages that they get
14:40is that if at all they are giving up territory
14:45they are doing a favor to the Palestinians
14:49for giving up something which belongs to them.
14:52But I think the worst message
14:55which is a hidden message
14:57but it comes out very clearly
14:59the worst message that the educational system
15:02still conveys
15:04is that good life
15:09better life than you have now
15:12are connected to the number of Arabs in your country.
15:16This is something I find very disturbing
15:19that life could have been better
15:22had there been less Palestinians in Israel
15:25had there been less Palestinians in Palestine.
15:28We are pragmatic people
15:30maybe it's impossible
15:31so life is good
15:33but it could have been better.
15:35And there is very little attempt
15:38in the educational system
15:41to try and change this basic idea
15:46that is planted in the minds of people.
15:57You gave us a lot of information.
16:02It will have to be translated.
16:11You gave us a lot of information
16:14based on new facts.
16:17And the question is of course
16:20if you as a politician think
16:23what is going on somewhere in your head
16:27what do you think
16:29how can the situation change?
16:32Because the Middle East is now a focal point
16:35and it will remain for a long time
16:39What can be done to achieve something in the USA?
16:43Secondly, what can be done in Germany?
16:46This is also a problem.
16:48The Central Council of the Jews is very careful
16:51so that nothing changes in the situation.
16:54And what could the Arab world do?
17:08I think that these are very difficult times.
17:17It's very difficult to see in the short term
17:23any changes on the ground.
17:26And I think these are very difficult times
17:29in particular for people who are activists.
17:32Because we are now in a period
17:36we may have been there before
17:38but I think now it's even worse than before
17:41in a period where really whatever you do on the ground
17:45as an activist
17:47has very little impact on the reality.
17:52Stronger forces and activists
17:55determine what goes on on the ground.
17:58You have a clear Israeli policy
18:01of strangulating the Gaza Strip
18:05of dividing the West Bank into two parts
18:09ethnically cleansing one part
18:11annexing the other part
18:14and it's very difficult to see who is going to oppose it.
18:18The Palestinian movement is in disarray
18:22disintegrated
18:24there is this very clear dichotomy
18:28or division between the Fatah and the Hamas
18:32It's very difficult to get any guidance
18:36from the Palestinian Authority
18:38as a leadership of the Palestinians.
18:41We are in very, very difficult times.
18:45And I think what it means
18:48that anyone of us who is not a direct member
18:52of the political elites
18:54who is not a minister in the government
18:56who is not an ambassador
18:58or who is not a member of a political party
19:03that is important in life
19:06I think first and foremost
19:08should know that they are dealing with a long-term process.
19:13So what they do has no dividends in the short term
19:18only in the long term.
19:21And I think different groups of activists
19:26have different roles to play.
19:30I think there is no need for people in Europe for instance
19:34to invest too much energy
19:36in bringing over Israelis and Palestinians to meet here.
19:41I call it the kissing cousin industry.
19:44There is no need for it.
19:45Really they can meet there.
19:47There is no need.
19:48And it only helps the Israelis
19:50with their propaganda
19:52that there is now not only a peace process from above
19:55there is even a peace process from below.
19:58I think the civil society in Europe
20:01has a very clear role.
20:03It has to send a clear message to their governments
20:07that there is an unacceptable gap
20:10between what most citizens in Europe feel
20:13about the Israeli policy
20:15and the policies of the government.
20:17The public opinion in Europe has shifted.
20:20Maybe you don't feel it enough in Germany
20:23for obvious reasons
20:24but the public opinion in Europe is shifting.
20:27But the European governments do not dare to do anything.
20:33I want to remind you that it took 29 years
20:37for the anti-apartheid movement in Europe
20:41to get the first ever anti-apartheid resolution
20:45by the European government, the Irish government
20:49before they could translate their popular will into policy.
20:54Europe has a very important...
20:57European society, German society in particular
21:00has a very important and very difficult, I know
21:03but that's the only way forward
21:06of saying...
21:08I tell you what you need more than anything else.
21:11You need a pill that you can swallow
21:14that if anybody says to you
21:16you are an anti-Semite
21:18if you criticize Israel
21:20the pill will immune you.
21:22You won't need that.
21:24That's what you need.
21:26Once you have it, believe me
21:29what you need is one bold German politician
21:32maybe they are not here in 2008
21:35so maybe they will come later on.
21:37One bold German politician
21:40who would say to the Israelis
21:42I am not anti-Semite
21:44but you are perpetrating war crimes
21:47against the Palestinians
21:49and I am going to ask my government
21:51to join other civilized nations
21:53to put a stop to your criminal policies.
21:55That's the only thing you need.
21:57It's not easy to produce
21:59but I suggest that this is what you focus on here.
22:02I think the Palestinians have their own agenda.
22:06They don't have to use...
22:08I don't think they have to change world public opinion.
22:11They need all their energies
22:13to give us guidance.
22:15To tell us
22:17what is the address of the Palestinian leadership.
22:20We don't know.
22:21We don't have a telephone number.
22:23When you were an active member
22:26of the anti-apartheid movement in Europe
22:30you knew exactly who the ANC was.
22:33You knew exactly what the ANC platform is.
22:36Nobody can do it for the Palestinians.
22:38They have to do it themselves.
22:40The same is true about the activists
22:43in the Israeli Jewish society.
22:45They have a tough and difficult role
22:48of re-educating their society.
22:51How difficult it is.
22:53I know how difficult it is.
22:54I was there.
22:55But that's re-educating the Israeli society.
22:58Probably you cannot do it
23:00by joining the political parties of Israel.
23:02I don't think it helps.
23:03It's a waste of time to do that.
23:05You can only work on the educational system,
23:08the media system
23:09and some very brave people, as you know,
23:11are doing it on a daily basis.
23:13But I think they need empowerment.
23:17Actually, my idea is that
23:20when I talk about South Africa
23:23that if you in Germany
23:25would with other people in Europe say
23:29we don't accept the state of Israel
23:33as long as it continues with these policies
23:36and not accepting meaning suggesting boycott
23:40sanctions,
23:42if you would say it openly
23:44and bravely and boldly
23:46it would help the Israeli activists on the ground
23:49because you have to save Israel from itself.
23:53It's for the benefit of Jews as well as Arabs
23:56to change the reality on the ground
23:59because eventually,
24:00as happened to the Crusaders,
24:02evil states do not exist
24:06sorry, states with evil ideologies
24:09cannot exist for too long
24:12and with all the good things that I said about Zionism
24:15this basic idea
24:17that Palestinians have no role in the life of Palestine
24:21cannot be accepted.
24:23For their own benefit, they have to give it up.
24:27And then we can all start thinking of how best
24:31to build our life there together.
24:35I can speak louder.
24:48I have a question in English.
24:50You mentioned re-education
24:52and I was just wondering
24:54what kind of opportunities exist in Israel
24:57for example for young people
24:59to hear alternate opinions such as yours
25:02to the mainstream.
25:04You mentioned indoctrination and so on.
25:06What kind of chance is there for people
25:09to get exposed to these kinds of ideas?
25:12There are chances.
25:14There are, for instance,
25:16two very important NGOs,
25:18non-governmental organizations
25:20who are trying to introduce
25:23a different educational thinking.
25:26One is called New Profile
25:28which is fighting against the militarization
25:31of the Israeli society.
25:34They talk to school children.
25:36They talk to teachers.
25:38They try to find access to schools and so on.
25:43It's not always easy because you will be barred.
25:46But that's one opportunity.
25:48There is an NGO called Zohrot,
25:51remembering in Hebrew,
25:53that tries to educate the public at large
25:55about what happened in 1948.
25:58There is a Center for Alternative Information
26:01in Jerusalem.
26:02There are NGOs.
26:04I think any Israeli Jew
26:08who wants to know what happens now
26:11or what happened in the past
26:13has many addresses to go to.
26:16I think the problem is
26:18they don't want to know.
26:20I always had a feeling with my neighbors.
26:23I had a home university.
26:28We have time?
26:30I'll tell you a story.
26:32Two minutes.
26:36Eight years ago,
26:37I moved to a new neighborhood
26:40not far away from Haifa.
26:44I moved into the neighborhood
26:46and the local newspaper wrote an article
26:51saying that the Antichrist has come to visit.
26:55It's a very nasty profile about me.
27:02My wife, who is always whiter than I am,
27:04said to me,
27:05I know what you want to do.
27:06You want to write an article.
27:08You are an academic.
27:09That's the only thing we know what to do.
27:12You'll write a nasty article
27:15about this nasty person.
27:17What's the use?
27:19She suggested instead
27:21that we would put an ad,
27:24an advertisement,
27:25in that local newspaper.
27:27We would tell them,
27:29the people who live there,
27:31that every Wednesday at 9 o'clock
27:33our house is open.
27:35We open the living room.
27:37Anybody who wants to hear my views,
27:39wants to engage with my views,
27:42is invited.
27:4450 people showed.
27:46I conducted a weekly home university
27:49with these people
27:51who were from the mainstream middle class Israel.
27:54Professionals and so on.
27:57I felt that for half of them,
28:00they left because they began to know
28:03what was going on.
28:05They felt, because they are decent people,
28:07that if they know more,
28:09they would have to do something.
28:11So they decided not to know.
28:14You know, it happened here as well.
28:17In the 1970s.
28:19People who know may feel awkward
28:23and may do things
28:25which would endanger their life,
28:27which complicate their life.
28:29They would feel very bad about it.
28:31If you don't know,
28:32you don't have to act.
28:34So it's not the problem
28:35of finding out what goes on.
28:37It's the decency,
28:38the human decency,
28:40to decide that if I know,
28:42I will also act.
28:57I have two or three more questions.
29:08First of all,
29:09I am irritated by the fact
29:11that Israeli politicians
29:15have been admitting
29:18the massacre in Deir Yassin
29:20for almost 20 years.
29:22They have no problem with it.
29:24They say it and admit it.
29:26Unfortunately, like Palestinians,
29:28we made the mistake
29:29of always pointing to Deir Yassin
29:31as the only massacre.
29:34Why do you do that?
29:36It irritates me,
29:37even though I understand you.
29:39The second thing is that
29:41for no more than three years
29:43we don't have the right to exist
29:45of Israel in the foreground,
29:47but the Jewish character
29:49of the state of Israel.
29:51It will always be in the foreground.
29:55But we know that Israel,
29:58by definition,
30:00as a Jewish state,
30:02is the state of many people
30:04who don't live there.
30:06Every Jew who lives in the world,
30:08but not the state of many people
30:10who live there.
30:11The Palestinians who live in Israel,
30:13by definition.
30:15My question is,
30:17what you said,
30:20Oslo and Co.,
30:22all these games we've had
30:24in the last 15 years,
30:26will not lead to that.
30:28Does that mean that
30:30the two-state solution
30:32is a fiction?
30:34Is it a fata morgana?
30:36Should we consider that?
30:38The third question,
30:42and the last one,
30:44which I met two days ago
30:46in your person,
30:48just to let you know,
30:50your critics say,
30:52why don't you publish
30:54your books in Hebrew?
30:58Okay, well, let's start
31:00with the first point
31:03about DERC.
31:05I think there are two stages
31:07with the DERC massacre.
31:09In April 1948,
31:12Ben-Gurion wanted to publicize
31:15the DERC massacre
31:17because he thought it would terrify
31:19other Palestinians
31:21and would cause them to leave
31:23because they would think
31:25the same fate would happen to them,
31:27and I think for that reason
31:29he also inflated the number
31:31of people killed there
31:33in order to make it even worse.
31:35As I show in my book,
31:37we know how many were killed there.
31:39It's the only case where the Israelis
31:41had a greater number
31:43than really were killed.
31:45Secondly,
31:47he suggested,
31:49which was not true,
31:51but he suggested
31:53that the extreme right in Israel
31:55committed that massacre,
31:57which was also very good
31:59for his political problems.
32:01He wanted to delegitimize,
32:03the people
32:05who supposedly committed
32:07that massacre.
32:09That was the reason.
32:11I think
32:13the Israeli historians
32:1520-30 years later
32:17found out,
32:19or decided,
32:21I think they decided,
32:23to say that there was not even one massacre
32:25would not be believable.
32:27So,
32:29we are the chosen people,
32:31which means we have one massacre.
32:33If we were not the chosen people,
32:35probably there were more,
32:37because it was too complete.
32:39Anyway,
32:41we can always say that the extreme right
32:43committed it.
32:45In fact,
32:47for them it normalized
32:49what they would like always to say,
32:51that they have something which they call
32:53the purity of arms,
32:55which is they have weapons
32:57that only shoot
32:59in self-defense
33:01and only kill
33:03when it's ethically and morally right
33:05to do so.
33:07It's a very particular Israeli military
33:09invention.
33:11Now, your second question was about
33:13the two-state solution
33:15and definition. Yes,
33:17I think that
33:19very few people
33:21would say now
33:23that the two-state solution is possible.
33:26It doesn't mean that
33:28many people would say that the one-state
33:30solution is better, but at least
33:32we have reached a position,
33:34we have reached a position
33:36or situation where the
33:38facts on the ground are such
33:40that you cannot have
33:42a Palestinian state.
33:44Now,
33:46it's a very big question
33:48whether a one-state solution
33:50is possible. I think both
33:52solutions right now
33:54are impossible.
33:56But it's very clear
33:58that the only
34:00reason Palestinians
34:02supported the
34:04two-state solution was because
34:06they thought it was possible,
34:08not because they thought it was good.
34:10Not one Palestinian
34:12say, I'm very happy
34:14to have only 20%
34:16of my homeland. I'm very
34:18happy to see
34:20the Israelis having half of Jerusalem.
34:22I'm very happy
34:24to see many of the refugees
34:26not coming back. They said
34:28maybe it's possible, so we'd
34:30rather have that than not having
34:32anything. This was the basic
34:34Palestinian motivation. Not that they
34:36thought that this was a just solution.
34:38They were very pragmatic, those
34:40Palestinians who supported two states.
34:42But we now know that
34:44it's impossible. You will not get
34:46from the Israelis, not 20%,
34:48not 10%. You may
34:50get 3-5% in
34:52which you would live in a
34:54prison.
34:56Yeah, all that.
34:58And you will never
35:00get the right of return.
35:02And the reason is
35:04that the problem in
35:06Israel, as I was trying to show tonight,
35:08is not a particular
35:10policy or a particular
35:12government. The problem,
35:14the reason that
35:16you were not going to
35:18have two states is
35:20because of the ideology of the state
35:22of Israel, not the policy.
35:24The ideology. And if
35:26you want a solution, you have to change the
35:28ideology of the state.
35:30So I say if you anyway have to
35:32change the ideology of the state,
35:34let's go for what we want,
35:36not for what we think
35:38we can get. And I think
35:40it's a long way, but
35:42it's time to say boldly
35:44and courageously
35:46that in this small
35:48piece of land,
35:50it's ridiculous to have more than
35:52one state. The Jews,
35:54Christians and Muslims lived there before
35:56in harmony.
35:58That it's possible
36:00in the 21st century
36:02to have a political
36:04outfit which
36:06gives equal rights
36:08to the people.
36:10One of the most important
36:12speeches on peace, which was
36:14given in 1917 by President
36:16Woodrow Wilson,
36:18was not implemented.
36:20That's one of the reasons we have the second one
36:22was he said,
36:24peace is not about sharing
36:26a land in
36:28a proportional way.
36:30He said, it's not about
36:32finding
36:34a military balance which would be equal.
36:36Peace, he said,
36:38is only one thing.
36:40The equality of rights.
36:42The equality of rights.
36:44One thing
36:46Zionism cannot allow,
36:48whether to the Palestinian citizens
36:50in Israel, whether to the
36:52Palestinians in the Gaza Strip,
36:54whether to the Palestinians in Jerusalem,
36:56whether to the Palestinians in the refugee
36:58camps, they cannot allow
37:00even if they are Shimon Peres
37:02and Yossi Beilin and
37:04A, B, C, D, E, F, G,
37:06Joshua, all these
37:08beautiful gurus who get in Germany
37:10one get a prize after the
37:12other for no good reason, because
37:14they're also not such good writers, but that doesn't matter.
37:16The reason
37:18that these
37:20people can never
37:22get over
37:24the boundary is
37:26that they also
37:28think in these terms
37:30that the Palestinians cannot have equal
37:32rights.
37:34And peace is about equal
37:36rights. Now I think
37:38the best political outfit
37:40for guaranteeing
37:42equal rights is one step,
37:44not two steps.
37:46Your last question was
37:48about
37:50critique.
37:52First of all,
37:54I have one book in Hebrew
37:56which is called The History of the Hussanism.
37:58I wrote it.
38:00I'm trying desperately to publish it
38:02in Hebrew. Nobody wants to publish it.
38:04Stematsky, which is the main
38:06book chain, boycotts my books,
38:08which I'm very proud of.
38:10My book, this book
38:12is being translated into Hebrew
38:14and I will distribute
38:16it privately if need be.
38:18I cannot publish
38:20in Hebrew. I publish articles
38:22in some left-wing,
38:24what they call in Israel left-wing
38:26or marginal magazines.
38:28No, I don't think
38:30the Israelis are
38:32able to confront
38:34unfortunately yet this chapter.
38:36But I'm optimistic.
38:38Maybe it's too early.
38:40Maybe it's too early.
38:42I think one day Israelis will be
38:44able to look
38:46at their past as so many people
38:48in Germany did and say
38:50we, as I say
38:52in my book, we committed a crime
38:54against humanity.
38:56Nothing justified what we did
38:58in 1948 and there is a way
39:00of
39:02correcting it
39:04without making anyone lose their home,
39:06without committing
39:08another crime. There is a way.
39:10You have to acknowledge the right of return.
39:12You have to allow the Palestinians
39:14to come back, those who want to.
39:16There is nothing wrong with it
39:18and then you can move on
39:20and have a closure
39:22as they say in psychology.
39:24Have a closure and have a better life.
39:26I know it's elementary psychology.
39:32But when it comes to politics,
39:34I think the political content
39:36is not very clear.
39:38And that's the question.
39:40It only limits itself
39:42to the territorial question
39:44and the question of the recognition
39:46of the territory.
39:48It's also a question
39:50of how recognized
39:52is the citizen
39:54of Palestine,
39:56the question of humanity
39:58or
40:00a political solution
40:02which I think
40:04a political solution
40:06should take place
40:08in general
40:10should not be
40:12treated on this basis.
40:14The second question.
40:16My second question is
40:18Israeli politicians
40:20always come to Europe
40:22and on the one hand
40:24proudly say
40:26we are the only democratic
40:28city in the Middle East.
40:30On the other hand
40:32they want to have a Jewish city.
40:34How can a democratic city
40:36be with a single party?
40:50I would like to remind you
40:52that a participant
40:54asked
40:56what the Americans
40:58and the Arabs
41:00could possibly do.
41:02In America I think
41:04many people
41:06have great hope
41:08after Obama's election
41:10that the Arab
41:12as chief of staff
41:14has set up
41:16a party
41:18which seems to be
41:20good for the Palestinians.
41:22What do you think?
41:26I think
41:30the movement
41:32towards a one state solution
41:34or an alternative
41:36political solution
41:38to the two state solution
41:40is a very long process
41:42and I think at this stage
41:44I would agree on two things.
41:46One
41:48that we don't
41:50know yet
41:52who wants to participate
41:54in the negotiation.
41:56I think what is very important
41:58is to make sure that we don't exclude anyone.
42:00We know now
42:02that there are strong traditional
42:04forces, religious forces,
42:06secular forces,
42:08Jewish forces,
42:10Palestinian forces and so on.
42:12So definitely
42:14the important thing to do
42:16at this stage is to determine
42:18very clearly that
42:20it's an inclusive
42:22process, not an exclusive process.
42:24We want to engage
42:26people, but we can begin
42:28to, as some groups have started,
42:30we can begin by
42:32playing with
42:34Bill of Rights
42:36of future constitution.
42:38We should start and do it
42:40because yes, it will not only be
42:42a binational state, it will be a multicultural
42:44state and so on
42:46and definitely we will have to find
42:48the best
42:50consensus on which
42:52to cooperate
42:54together. In this respect
42:56the Palestinians are not a passive
42:58agent in
43:00this story. I do
43:02think that as activists
43:04we should pressure Israel
43:06to stop what it does, but the Palestinians
43:08of course have to
43:10re-conceptualize many of the
43:12things that they believe in now
43:14as the Israelis would have to.
43:16This is one of the
43:18bad or good sides of the end
43:20of the two-state solution.
43:22It forces everyone
43:24to rethink, if you want,
43:26in a post-national way,
43:28in a
43:30humanist way, and so on.
43:32But the fact
43:34that this is very difficult doesn't mean
43:36it's not the right way forward,
43:38but I do agree. I think that
43:40there is a
43:42lot at stake
43:44when you come to, on the one hand,
43:46to a settler-colonialist
43:48society like Israel,
43:50and to a national movement like the
43:52Palestinians, and say to them
43:54we envisage you living together
43:56in one
43:58state. They would
44:00have to do some thinking about
44:02it, because I think the alternative
44:04is what the Americans
44:06call mad, mutual
44:08assured destruction. I don't
44:10think there is an alternative. You will have
44:12to
44:14push it. So I
44:16think that we are
44:18into
44:20a phase of redefining
44:22many, many things in our lives, as
44:24Palestinians and as Israelis.
44:26Because the way we define ourselves
44:28to this very moment
44:30was not for anyone's benefit,
44:32definitely not for the Palestinians
44:34who are the victims so far
44:36of this story.
44:38This
44:40brings me to the second question.
44:42I agree. I don't think that the Jewish
44:44in a democratic
44:46state can be together. However,
44:48I think again, you know, I talked about
44:50changing the dictionary.
44:52I don't think Israel is a
44:54Jewish state. I really
44:56don't think. I'm Jewish. I
44:58have my understanding of Judaism.
45:00In my
45:02dictionary, a Jewish state
45:04does not discriminate
45:06against non-Jews, does not
45:08colonize, does not occupy,
45:10does not abuse
45:12human rights, civil rights.
45:14I think Israel is a Zionist
45:16state, which is one
45:18out of many interpretations
45:20of what Judaism is.
45:22They have their own interpretation
45:24of Judaism, with which
45:26I don't agree. And especially
45:28I don't agree with it, not on an intellectual
45:30level. I don't agree with it because
45:32it victimizes the Palestinians.
45:34I mean, if
45:36defining
45:38oneself as a Zionist
45:40would not mean
45:42that the Palestinians in Israel would be
45:44second-rate citizens, and that
45:46the Palestinians in Gaza would be
45:48exposed to genocidal
45:50policies by Israel, and the Palestinians
45:52in the West Bank would be under
45:54the danger of ethnic cleansing,
45:56I would be a Zionist too.
45:58I have no problem with the word. I like it, actually.
46:00It's a nice word. I know what
46:02Zion is. Zion is Jerusalem from the Bible.
46:04There's nothing wrong with Zion.
46:06For me, Zionism
46:08is this
46:10interpretation of reality
46:12of a place that has a lot
46:14of Palestinians who should disappear.
46:16And I cannot accept
46:18it as a human being, and as
46:20a Jew.
46:22The last
46:24point that was
46:26made here, which was...
46:28Yeah, and I
46:30owe it to someone else who asked about
46:32America. I forgot. I like to forget about
46:34America.
46:36Of course we do.
46:38Actually,
46:40I gave
46:42a talk at the
46:44University of Oxford two weeks ago.
46:46The thing I annoyed some of
46:48my young Palestinian
46:50friends. I told
46:52them, because they don't know history,
46:54like all students. It doesn't matter if they are
46:56Palestinians or Israelis. Students
46:58of a certain age find
47:00history irritating.
47:02So they don't know history.
47:04So I told them,
47:06contrary to what they think,
47:08American policy was
47:10not always anti-Palestinian.
47:12And I
47:14singled out particularly
47:16one president, Dwight Eisenhower.
47:18They were
47:20really, I think, shocked when I told
47:22them, I read to them, a
47:24claim that he had for
47:26peace in Palestine and Israel.
47:28Dwight Eisenhower
47:30believed that all the
47:32Palestinian refugees had the right to
47:34return. He sent
47:36his foreign minister,
47:38his Secretary of State, John Foster
47:40Dulles, to Israel.
47:42He came back and he said
47:44to the president,
47:46it's ridiculous what the Israelis are saying.
47:48There is enough room for all the refugees
47:50to return. It's not a matter
47:52of physical problem. It's an
47:54ideological problem. And we
47:56as Americans should not accept it.
47:58In fact, Eisenhower
48:02worried the Israelis so
48:04much that in 1953
48:06the Israeli government,
48:08sorry it was 54, in 1954
48:10the Israeli government decided
48:12to invent
48:14AIPAC
48:16because of Eisenhower.
48:18Have you ever asked yourself why AIPAC
48:20came into being?
48:22For that you need to
48:24love history. Not everything comes out
48:26of air. It's history.
48:28AIPAC came into being
48:30because the Israeli government
48:32saw in front of its eyes
48:34an American president
48:36who was a bastard
48:38in many other issues. And many people
48:40in the Arab world don't like him because
48:42he was trying to stop
48:44Jamal Abdel Nasser and
48:46his guys. So people remember
48:48him as a negative
48:50person. But he was a
48:52decent person when it came to the Palestinians.
48:54He said, I don't
48:56understand this idea of
48:58a Jewish state.
49:00Dwight Eisenhower thought,
49:02like, where is he?
49:04Like he did, that the Jewish
49:06state and democracy do not go together.
49:08And you can imagine
49:10how worried the Israeli government
49:12was.
49:14And they started it. To their credit
49:16they know how to work.
49:18So Abba Eden, who was the Israeli
49:20ambassador
49:22to the United Nations, worked
49:24closely with some Jewish friends
49:26and they decided to establish
49:28AIPAC. And eventually
49:30they succeeded. Not so much
49:32with Eisenhower, whom they
49:34hated, and who had a very
49:36strong friend, Senator
49:38Fulbright, who in 1960,
49:40long before the
49:42famous vote by Walter Benjamin,
49:44wrote a report
49:46saying that AIPAC is controlling
49:48American policy
49:50in the Middle East,
49:52contrary to American interests.
49:54And AIPAC
49:56is the pro-Zionist
49:58lobby, pro-Jewish lobby
50:00in Washington.
50:02The American-Israeli
50:04public
50:06relations
50:08company.
50:10It's what we call the pro-Israeli
50:12lobby.
50:14And they destroyed
50:16Senator Fulbright, who was one of the strongest
50:18senators on
50:20Capitol Hill. They
50:22also didn't like Kennedy.
50:24It was
50:26only with Johnson,
50:28Lyndon Johnson, that the whole
50:30policy changed.
50:32In many ways, I, again,
50:34this is if in history,
50:36but I have very little doubt that if
50:38Dwight Eisenhower would have been
50:40the president in June 1967,
50:42in a matter
50:44of a month, all the Israeli
50:46forces would have been out of the West Bank
50:48and the Gaza Strip. I want to remind
50:50you that Dwight Eisenhower
50:52forced the Israelis out of
50:54the Sinai in 1956.
50:56Yeah?
50:58So, America is
51:00not always
51:02pro-Israeli and anti-Palestinian
51:04chapters.
51:06Is Obama
51:08the new Dwight Eisenhower?
51:10Is he taking
51:12America
51:14into a different path?
51:16I doubt it.
51:18The way he
51:20had a very close
51:22Palestinian friend, Rashid Khaledi,
51:24and he denied that he was his
51:26friend when the Republicans
51:28found out.
51:30He appointed, as you mentioned,
51:32Rahim Emanuel,
51:34a staunch
51:36pro-Zionist, ex-Israeli
51:38military man
51:40as the chief of staff.
51:42It doesn't look good.
51:44It doesn't look good.
51:46I doubt it, whether Obama
51:48is the news
51:50we are waiting for in Palestine
51:52and Israel. We need more
51:54work in America, but given
51:56the history I just mentioned,
51:58it's possible, and not
52:00impossible, also to change
52:02American public
52:04opinion, and I think
52:06this may happen.
52:08If not in my lifetime,
52:10I doubt it.
52:40applause
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