Should a woman's dress code intention matter?
With Joel Morris
With Joel Morris
Category
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TVTranscript
00:00Manhood, brought to you in part by Reboot Sports Drink.
00:09Welcome once again, this is Manhood Season 2 and I love the sound of that
00:14because they always say there's a curse if you don't make it past your first season
00:18because then that's just a pilot. This is Season 2 and it's very, very much needed
00:23because we are a few men talking to all men and that's what's important.
00:29We want to make sure that Manhood stands for being your voice
00:32and talking to you about things that men experience, all topics.
00:36And we talk all how, as they say.
00:38So I am Robert Dumas, Johan Seawedike, to my right, Behaviour Change Consultant.
00:43I got that right. Specialist. Specialist. Specialist extraordinaire.
00:47The one and only Joel Signal to Noise Morris.
00:51You know, it's like a moment. It's like a moment that we have to appreciate it.
00:57That's a big intro. It's a big intro.
00:59Signal, really happy to have you here.
01:01And Niall McNeish, you know, always a pleasure, a regular on the show.
01:06So let's get straight into it.
01:07Right.
01:08The topic today, we're talking about wine and culture.
01:15How women dress.
01:16How that appeals to men and how people react.
01:19So it's a whole, it's a lot.
01:21And we're not just talking about carnival in particular.
01:24We're talking about party or just in general.
01:26Right.
01:26How women dress, how it affects men, how men behave.
01:29And, again, this is not specifically an opinion of someone.
01:35We're just talking the things.
01:37We want a presence at one time.
01:39Correct.
01:39So it could be our culture or cuss who, or cuss, yeah, as some people say.
01:46You know, whether you deserve a cuss or not.
01:47But no judgment.
01:49No judgment.
01:50Right.
01:50So we dive in right in.
01:52Please.
01:52Let me start with the caveat and set it that we men are responsible for our behavior.
01:59Okay.
02:00We have control of what we do.
02:02So you currently say, or you shouldn't say, somebody make me do something.
02:08I mean, okay.
02:09Right.
02:10Following, following, following.
02:11Right.
02:12I set it in that first.
02:14Before we discuss what women wear, how it make us feel, et cetera.
02:18Because, again, you're in control of how you feel.
02:23Okay.
02:24You're starting the season off safe.
02:25In control of what you do.
02:27Right.
02:27So when you do something, I want to make sure that you know it's intentional.
02:31Right.
02:32Because if you see something and you want to approach it to dance, you want to touch, you want to do anything, know that that's our intent.
02:41Right.
02:41Know that somebody control you or something control you.
02:44Okay.
02:44All right.
02:45So let me just pause there.
02:46Your answer is starting off this season safe.
02:48Nah.
02:48It's not safe.
02:49Safe.
02:49No, it's not safe.
02:50Because it's temptation.
02:51It's starting off powerful.
02:53Okay.
02:53Meaning that we men are in control and have power over who we are.
02:57Nobody else.
02:58No woman have control over, well, no woman should not have control over what we do.
03:05True.
03:06But in the same vein, women are also in control of what they do and how they behave, right?
03:11Yes.
03:11Right.
03:12So it's similar to men.
03:14So, I mean, if a woman decides that she wants to dress in a certain manner, look a certain way, behave a certain way, that is her intent as well.
03:22Correct.
03:22So I just want to presence that as well so we balance the conversation as we go forward.
03:26And I agree with you, right?
03:28So, based on what a woman chooses to do, how she dance, how she dress, etc., it may stir certain feelings in you, right?
03:38Of course.
03:38We dare.
03:39But that doesn't mean, now, remember, it has law, right?
03:43It has the actual law of Trinidad and Tobago.
03:46So if you're touched without permission, right, that violates our law.
03:52True or false?
03:54Let me hear.
03:54Well, we speak about wine and culture.
03:57And if we're using Carnival as a reference, right?
04:00So Carnival really begins at 4 a.m., opening with Jouvet, and then finishes on Tuesday at 12, going into Ash Wednesday.
04:08So at that point, there's certain things that are understood or allowed under that culture, be it music played loud, being able to dress a particular way, because even that is considered, if you're dressing scant in a particular way, that is also generally against the law.
04:27So there's a certain understanding.
04:28Now, I take your point that regardless, touching a man or woman, because remember, we're not generalizing here.
04:36I mean, we're not being specific to our gender here.
04:38Women do the same.
04:40We're saying that touch, yes, it has to be, it's their bodies.
04:46It's a man's body.
04:47So you have to have permission.
04:49But under culture, you see a woman dancing, that's dancing in a particular way.
04:56It's almost like an invitation.
04:59It's an invitation.
05:01And so if you go to the woman and you get braced, well, then take your brace.
05:05Right.
05:05So what we're talking about here is you're responsible.
05:08I'm ready to unleash the Nile just now, right?
05:10You can't wait.
05:12So I'm saying that you're responsible for your behavior, yes, as long as you're not inebriated, because then that in itself takes a different...
05:20No, you're still responsible.
05:21You're still responsible.
05:22Even though you're intoxicated.
05:23But I'm saying that certain behaviors then change as you're, you know, you are seeing...
05:30Stop pulling your thoughts back.
05:33Stop pulling back.
05:33And you're seeing something shaking.
05:36So you're seeing something shaking.
05:37But also how a woman dresses, or a man, and you don't leave much to the imagination.
05:42Now, we're going to get more and more into it as to the right and wrong and how certain things occur.
05:50And regardless, it is still a woman's body to decide, hey, you stay back.
05:56And for the man to respect that.
05:57Also for a woman, if she comes on to a man, to respect that.
06:01But I just want, before we really get into the down and dirty, so to speak, of winding culture, and how women dress, and how men dress, and we get into that aspect of it.
06:14I just want to contextualize and remind our viewers and listeners, because we also have this on podcast, that the nature of the show is to reach all men, as well as women,
06:29so that we have a better understanding of behaviors.
06:32Correct.
06:33Of each other.
06:34And of each other.
06:35Correct.
06:35So when we discuss these topics, it's not in any way a bash to a woman, or blaming a woman for a particular behavior, or what they do.
06:45We are just having a conversation so that everyone on both sides has a better understanding of what transpires, or what we are thinking in certain cases.
06:55And how, in certain circumstances, you can avoid certain situations.
07:01Certain situations.
07:02Right.
07:03Because, as we mentioned, even in last season, that we're not fighting.
07:07You know, it's always the battle of the sexes.
07:09It don't make sense, because somebody will win and somebody will lose, and then that doesn't make any sense.
07:14Correct.
07:14So we're just getting a better understanding of each other.
07:17Also, we're making sure I'm being honest.
07:19So talk to us.
07:21Honest.
07:22Honest.
07:22Honest.
07:23We get to the brass tacks and things, right?
07:28A woman whining on the road, right?
07:30A lot of the time is for her self-expression, right?
07:33They just want to show off.
07:34But I know that they have a percentage.
07:36I will argue that, though, but go ahead.
07:38No.
07:39That self-expression you're talking about.
07:41Well, let's argue it.
07:42We'll bring an argument here, because I think there is intent, right?
07:45And I think there is intent from the beginning of the, when the woman has started with dressing.
07:52Right.
07:53What are they going to buy?
07:54How are they going to look?
07:55Right?
07:56And there is an intent, in my opinion, to look good.
08:01Who are they looking good for?
08:03You're saying, are they looking good for themselves?
08:05That self-expression that you're talking about?
08:07Or are they looking good?
08:10Are they dressing in a manner and whining in a way to appeal to the male, you know?
08:19To the male gaze.
08:19I don't know if it's the gaze.
08:21Yes, the gaze.
08:22But maybe more sometimes you don't know what the intent is.
08:25And there's a psychological conversation to happen, you know, with respect to that.
08:30Well, let me piggyback on that.
08:33As you say, intent.
08:34What you seem to be implying is that the intention was to get the attraction of the men.
08:40No, I'm just saying I don't know what the intent is.
08:42But I have been around a lot of women.
08:45We've all been around a lot of women.
08:46We've had conversations with them.
08:48Some of them we know well.
08:49We still like being around a lot of women.
08:51And some of them will have honest conversations with us.
08:54Right.
08:55And they will tell us the truth in terms of their intent.
08:58It's either they intend to do it for someone or they intend to look good in general.
09:02Maybe it's a competition between women.
09:04They go somewhere.
09:05They go into a party.
09:07They see all these women looking this way.
09:09They go back home and say, well, I was either not dressed properly or I'm not looking good enough.
09:13And that could be the trigger for them to improve on how they look and so on.
09:17But the general question to me is, what is the actual intent?
09:23Is it a competition?
09:24Are they dressing well for themselves?
09:26Are they dressing well or majority of them dressing well to look good so they could be attractive to men?
09:32Right.
09:32Well, you are dressing for yourself.
09:35It is a form of self-expression.
09:36But let's bring it back to a male, for example.
09:39When a male, right now you can't get a spot in a gym.
09:41So people, they pump, they pump the pecs, they train in, they diet in, you know, they're doing all the intermittent fasting, all of these different things.
09:52Because a man knows when he goes to a party, he wants to take off his shirt.
09:57He's doing it because he now feels good about himself, the work that he's put in, but it's also done to be attractive.
10:04And as a result of being attractive, it is also to attract, be it a male or female, whatever your preference is, we're not judging it.
10:13And that is the purpose.
10:15Now, let's be true.
10:16And we're not, again, like we're speaking, we're a few men speaking to all men.
10:20We've spoken to more than a few women.
10:23And I can go from that, the information that comes back is they will tell you, yes, we're going out there to get some attention.
10:33Because when you wear these, you know, the costumes now that is practically a couple bits of wire and a string, it is, and you work out and you work out hard.
10:46Some don't work out and decide to put it on anyway.
10:48Again, we're not judging.
10:49But either way, even if it didn't work out, you're still getting attention.
10:52You're doing it to get attention because most of them will tell you, it's not comfortable.
10:58So you're doing it, they're doing it because they want to get that attraction.
11:01And you go to learn these dances, our whining culture, and we'll get into more about what is our culture and what is really accepted and not in the second segment.
11:14You're doing it for attraction.
11:17And whether you want to admit that or not.
11:21I feel I'll jump in here.
11:24Because I think that we're applying how men think and women think to the same situation, and that's not the case, right?
11:30So to go back to women and be putting on certain things or just in a sitting way for the attraction, which, of course, has some sort of element in it.
11:41However, back to the intent.
11:43I think a lot of the times it's just for themselves to feel better.
11:46I want to feel good about myself.
11:48And that may mean I may need a male gaze or I might dress up a little skimpier than usual because that attraction, that attention that I get makes me feel better about myself, which is self.
12:02What's the ratio?
12:03I mean, how many women are doing it to feel good about themselves?
12:08We're talking about the women who go out, the outgoing type, you know, those types, right?
12:13How many of them are doing it to feel good about themselves versus those who are doing it to look good for the attraction?
12:21I can give you a practical answer to that.
12:23Is it both?
12:24Is that in reality, the majority of women that go out not dancing with men.
12:29The majority of women that go out is not interested.
12:33So that's the case you're talking about.
12:34Yeah, that's the case.
12:35You don't ask me for a percentage.
12:36So we're going on me being in our party.
12:38But the majority of men that go out want to dance on a gill.
12:41So if I put on my clothes and I take off my shirt in our party and I'm feeling strong, my job is not to feel better about myself.
12:50My job is to try to jam.
12:51I try to get a mate.
12:53I try to slide in.
12:54You know what I'm saying?
12:55Most women not come in with that intention to our event.
12:59They come in with the intention to, I would love for you to want me.
13:02Yes.
13:03That's making me feel nice.
13:05But I don't have any intention to be with you in any way.
13:08So the attraction is still right.
13:09So I jump in.
13:10You see, this real touchy, and touchy, pun intended.
13:15Pun intended.
13:16Robert, you were saying culture, right?
13:18We talk about culture and we talk about rules suspended at a certain time and intent.
13:24All of these things are intricate human dynamics which have no set language.
13:29You can't just Google and say, well, what to do in this fet?
13:32What to do?
13:32Because, again, you're talking about the intent of a woman and a man.
13:35But it depends even what fet you go to.
13:37Because you go to an all-inclusive, that's a different vibe.
13:39You go to army fet, that's a different vibe.
13:42You go to, if you understand what I'm saying, you go to fet gala.
13:44Different vibe or different demographic?
13:46Well, I think he's right.
13:47Let me go with intent and vibe.
13:50Because the same woman and man could go to, I use fet gala as an example.
13:56Fet gala, the same man going to dress up.
13:58He's not going to attract anybody.
14:00He's going to dress up because he's looking good.
14:02He's not going to look good, but he may go army fet and want a different intention.
14:07So, you see, it's good that we're discussing it, but it's also understand the difficulty in pinpointing exactly what it is.
14:16Because we don't know.
14:17When I leave home, nobody knows my intent, right?
14:20When a woman leaves home, we don't know her intent.
14:23And we now have to try to read between the cheeks, right?
14:27To know exactly what, I like it.
14:30I love army fet, but I don't see it as a demographic.
14:34I see it as one might be a bit stush, where I want to dress up on a nice shirt, have a different time, you know, cling, cling, cling, ching.
14:41How are we going?
14:42You see some people have a conversation.
14:44And army, I want a while out.
14:46And I feel cool.
14:49And army fet now is where if I had the body that I used to have, I want to whip that shirt off.
14:54So, I want to bring it back, we need to take a short break, but I really want to bring it back into the culture.
15:01What is the culture that we all understand in Trinidad and Tobago?
15:06Is it that we've moved on from that?
15:08Do we have a different behavior, just like, oh, you have cancel and more culture?
15:12Do we still believe in the things that we say, and are we still accepting of it?
15:18And I'll explain more when we come back from the break.
15:20So, this is Manhood Season 2, once again, really excited.
15:23We're talking about wine and culture and how women dress.
15:36So, thank you for staying with us.
15:38This is Manhood Season 2.
15:40Johan say, Joel, signal to noise, and Niall.
15:44And we're talking about wine and culture in Trinidad and Tobago.
15:48And, well, I mean, wine and culture, I mean, this is where wine and is known.
15:51Because it's not a walk-up and it's not a jam, it's wine and.
15:54So, wine and culture is synonymous with Trinidad and Tobago and how women dress and how men dress.
16:00And what reaction does that cause and behavior does that bring about.
16:08And we're getting caught up, and I'm using the word caught up, in almost like a right and wrong.
16:16And there's almost like an implication that women are dressing a certain way is leading to possibly negative behavior.
16:24But there's a lot of positive in it.
16:26And, again, we're just trying to have persons understand that you may have one intent, but it's causing a reaction.
16:36How we respond to that, there's right and wrong.
16:40And, yes, we have control over that response.
16:43But a response is nevertheless going to happen as a result.
16:47Or even a thought process, right?
16:50When you see a woman dancing a certain way, like we're watching music videos, they know it.
16:55They put, you know, women are in music videos for a reason.
16:58Because it gets that reaction out of men.
17:00So, when you see that live and direct in front of you, and a woman's been working out and taking care of herself and attractive,
17:07and they're in numbers.
17:08Because, as we said, women aren't going out looking for the same thing all the time that men are.
17:12And they group together, and they're doing these dances in tandem, right?
17:19In tandem.
17:19It's going to have your head going round, round, round, round, round, round, round, round, and Rosie.
17:25You know?
17:26You're looking at it.
17:28So, it has that impact.
17:31But I want us to have a discussion on are we still true to what we call our culture?
17:41And I know I'm doing a lot of talking at this point.
17:45But you have to presence things you can say.
17:48Your tone was a little, you know, a little aggressive.
17:50He's still talking.
17:51Right?
17:52But to say that you, in a culture, so, for example, we may take photos of persons and put them up on our website,
18:05enjoying themselves in our party.
18:06And persons, when they see themselves, may not want to be seen because they might have been whining on somebody who wasn't a significant other.
18:17Right.
18:17And then women, and there's a difference.
18:19If you're whining on your partner, but if you're not whining on your partner, and you give her a look back,
18:23or you bite your lip, or the tongue come out, and you're doing that, there's a difference.
18:29Now, are we as men, or women, still accepting of that as we culture?
18:36Well, listen.
18:39I have had this discussion about a social wine with many different people.
18:43Right?
18:44And this is me.
18:45My conclusion thus far is, it have no such thing as a social wine.
18:49There's nothing platonic about rubbing your bamsi on somebody's crotch.
18:55There's nothing platonic about rubbing up certain parts of your body on somebody's crotch.
18:59So you really feel your answer.
19:00Right?
19:01And even with couples, couples session, after carnival, it have couples who could remember.
19:10Well, I remember when you was dancing with her, you know, you went a little low, or you push forward a little bit,
19:15or you push back, and the man vice versa.
19:17You look back a little too much, you know, or it lasts two seconds more than it should have, you know.
19:21So the fact is, if the person, and I'm not saying all relationships, right?
19:26I'm using somewhat a good bit of them.
19:29If the person, each person could remember exactly what the person did, and it bothered them,
19:34means that it bothered them in the first place.
19:36And then when I ask the general question, this is whether it's married, boyfriend, girlfriend,
19:40even people going out with each other.
19:43You have a problem with social, right?
19:44Most people say no, but they prefer if it didn't happen.
19:48And the fact that you could say that means that they'd have a problem with it.
19:52So I'm prefacing that because if they have those dynamics, then, and the culture that we have,
20:01because the thing is, it's still sexy.
20:04It's still attraction, right?
20:06From the time you're showing your body, it have no, well, I see the bum see, and it don't mean nothing.
20:12I see a man's chest, and I see the abs, and it don't mean nothing.
20:17It's bodies, it's heat, it's human, it's even, we choose to do it to fully express and unleash.
20:26So I set in that premise.
20:27So you're saying that there's nothing like a platonic wine?
20:31No.
20:32So a friend, a family member, a family member, and you take it out, you know, and it's just a,
20:38or, you know, the bump on the side, and you're saying that there's no wine.
20:43If you just do that, there's no wine.
20:45You know?
20:45So if somebody can truly tell themselves that, you know, they're seeing their woman go and take a wine on a friend,
20:53might be your friend, that in some ways it might be even voyeuristic?
20:57I think that if wine is part of the culture of Trinidad and Tobago, and the carnival and so on,
21:06of course there is that platonic sense to it.
21:10You know, I mean, you take a wine on somebody where the intent is not ready to rub up on their crotch,
21:17and that kind of stuff is fun, is the mood, is the feeling of carnival, is the feeling of the music.
21:22I've seen women wine in with each other, right, and so on.
21:25And we've had a lot of friends who take a little wine with us and so on.
21:29Sometimes you meet somebody in the party and surprise them from behind,
21:32and they just take a little wine, and they look around and say, you know, how are you going and stuff.
21:36It's a greeting.
21:37It's like a house you can have a person.
21:39If we're talking about, if we're talking about the wine.
21:42If we're talking about the wine, as part of the culture, as part of the culture in terms of carnival and so on,
21:51or the music and so on, I think it could be platonic.
21:55There are other intentions.
21:57There are other intentions.
21:58He's very right in his articulation of the jealousy scenario and so on, right?
22:06That exists, and it exists a lot because it's emotions you're playing with, right?
22:10And so on.
22:11And sometimes somebody might be silent about it, right?
22:15And when they get to him, as he would have said, it's an entirely different story, right?
22:20But there are a lot of, in my opinion, I've done a lot of entertainment.
22:25I come from that, you know?
22:26A lot of the whining and the participating in the feeling of whining, the feeling of carnival, music, so on, it is platonic, in my opinion.
22:38Majority of it is, right?
22:41There is a percentage, yes, that is not platonic.
22:44There is an intent.
22:45Of course.
22:45We go back to that again.
22:46Of course.
22:47Right?
22:47An intent by a man or intent by a woman to tease a man or a man who is attracted to the woman, the woman, how she looks, how she dresses, the whine.
22:59Because some women could really whine, right?
23:01It's like the whining have evolved and gone to a whole other level.
23:06Facts.
23:06So, are we then saying that whining is still accepted as part of our culture?
23:15I am saying that, yes.
23:16Just like Johanse, you mentioned with regards to you have choice and behavior, there are times that you can greet somebody, and a whine might be that in a party.
23:27You come behind somebody and you take a, you know, it's almost like just bodies touching or a kiss or a greeting, right?
23:33And there's another time that if it's...
23:36A kiss or a greeting is different than ways is touching, eh?
23:40But there are other cultures around the world that greet differently.
23:44I think France, they greet with a kiss on the side or something.
23:48Yeah, but both kiss on the side.
23:50But we're in a party, and you are going to a woman pelt in ways, and you see her, and you're moving through the crowd.
23:56You're going to come in front of her and go, hi.
24:00Hello.
24:01Hello.
24:02Right.
24:02Are you going to do that?
24:03Boy, I'm excited.
24:04Now, notice.
24:05Nile, you talk.
24:06Talk, push.
24:07Yeah, I gave a chance to jump in, and I mean this with all respect, but the statement that
24:14you make where, you know, you sound like a dinosaur earlier, right?
24:19It's unreal old school.
24:20I get it.
24:22Gyrating on each other is the symbolization of sexual, of sex.
24:27That's literally what we do.
24:28When she bend over and your man come behind, that's what it's emulating.
24:32However, different cultures around the world have different ways of dancing.
24:35Square dancing could be happening in North Poland.
24:40The man have all the intentions to have that young lady, you know, moonwalking on the ceiling,
24:45but you're not gyrating on her.
24:48Meanwhile, his friend next door, both of them pole dancing, square dancing, but it's no scene.
24:53So the same thing could be applied to our culture.
24:56Yeah, but King, square dancing and whining is two different things.
24:59Well, that's our culture, that's appropriating the sexuality, Ted, you know, son, is what I'm saying.
25:05You want to say, I want you to address a point that he made, because one, there's a difference
25:10between, and that's why I come back to the cultural understanding.
25:13Now, you can have a platonic wine, you come behind somebody, but when you start to talk
25:18about bending over now, and like we talked about, I bend over and I look back and I turn,
25:23you are now taking it, it is no longer at that point, even though you're still friends,
25:28or it might be friendly and it's all in the nature of fun, because you might be looking to,
25:32you know, people go after wine as part of an attraction to get with someone, right?
25:37But there's also that, that's some almost hybrid of a platonic versus a, I learn to wine, I enjoy,
25:47I learn to do this, this, this, this, these particular moves.
25:52The specialty moves.
25:53People train in fit, you know, people, you know, stretching, you know, snake oil, all of these different things.
26:00The signature pieces.
26:01So when they come together now, even though the mindset is still platonic,
26:05at that point is a duttiness, that's part of that.
26:11But if you now start to bend over and all of these different things,
26:15my thing is, is it still fully platonic at that point?
26:20Well, you're moving a good post.
26:21You're moving a good post.
26:23Well, yes and no.
26:24And that's my point now.
26:26My point is that because of the act, it's not necessarily platonic.
26:30I get to see somebody, I don't like the person, I'm not into them, I'm not on them or anything like that.
26:36And let's say they come in, we do this.
26:40But one, I don't know the person's intent.
26:43That's one.
26:44Two, two is that it is difficult, even let's say you don't find a person attractive, but it is difficult.
26:53It can be difficult, not always difficult.
26:54But if two people join in a certain manner, we talk about alcohol, we talk about the vibe, we talk about it.
27:00I'm not saying it's impossible because I have done a social right now.
27:04I'm sure everybody here have done a social where the person come and you're not on them and they go.
27:10So, and what I'm saying with Robert, what he's saying is that it can change.
27:15Now, we're talking about the culture and we're talking about human dynamics.
27:19And that's why I threw it out in such an obtuse manner for the conversation because in any human dynamic, there are nuances.
27:27Nothing is set in stone.
27:28But we're talking about the culture.
27:29We're talking about evolving culture.
27:30And we're also talking about sometimes the truth behind what some people are doing, right?
27:36Because I've also heard, I've also heard, I've also heard people say, I'm with my wife, but, you know, I'm just going to take a little social around other people, right?
27:46Because I still want to feel something, right?
27:48They're going to, oh, women say, you know, I'm not with my man, but I'm just going to get this one, this one, this one, this one, my social wine.
27:55Because, to seemingly not disrespect, because a social wine is now, I would say it's more of a euphemism, right?
28:04When you want to, it could be, I could be wrong.
28:06Some people actually use the term now going to take a social wine.
28:09They actually use that phrase.
28:10I don't think they use the term.
28:11No, not that they say a little wine.
28:13Right.
28:13They won't say the word social.
28:14Yeah, they won't say social, but a little wine.
28:17And the intent behind it is, you know, it's carnival.
28:20Like a gateway with a rubbing, bam, bam, see on somebody, or rubbing a crush on somebody, or rubbing a crush on somebody, or rubbing a crush on somebody that I couldn't do before.
28:29You have to suck, say it's all weird.
28:30You have to say buttocks.
28:31You have to say, no, because you're actively making it seem like that's what the dance is.
28:38Yes.
28:38And it's not.
28:39But I want to touch on a point.
28:40No, I'm saying some people.
28:41No, but when he, but, but, but, I agree.
28:43I want to touch on a point you made, Robert.
28:44When he says, when he says that word, right, it, it make it sound very, um, dirty.
28:51It's on, and it's not, and it's not, and it's not, and it's not, and it's not meant to be.
28:55But during carnival, it's bam, see.
28:56When it's not carnival, it's buttocks or bottom, then.
28:59This, yeah.
28:59Right?
28:59But here, why do not, is it culture?
29:03I want to.
29:03Things change.
29:04I want to, I want to, I want to bring the point, and I just want to say that there's a difference
29:11between when a woman decides now, I'm going to touch my toes, or I'm going to raise my
29:16leg, or a strong man now decides, I'm going to pick up the woman now, and do it.
29:20So they have nothing at that point, unless you look, unless both of you single, right?
29:24If a man sees that, and I want us, we're going to, single, I want you to, to, to, to say
29:29your point, and then first of all, to a break.
29:30Yeah, sure.
29:31Because I want to use the final segment to talk about the, the laughs and so on we're having
29:36now, to bring it back to dress code, our understanding of culture, because when a man sees his woman,
29:45if a man, being picked up, or.
29:48Sit him in.
29:49Or done, or behaved, behave in a certain way, what is the result, or what is going to happen
29:55to that woman when she gets home, or a fight could even break out?
29:59I really want to come back to the seriousness of.
30:02Right.
30:02The point I wanted to make is on the, the difference between the, the social wine, so
30:09called social wine, and the bend over, when you take it to another level, and I was just
30:12talking about, we were all talking about the evolution of, of the industry, the carnival
30:17and so on, and the whining culture has evolved as well, right?
30:21So, for me, sometimes if you do a bend over, you do a, you put the woman on your shoulder,
30:26you think, it's still platonic, you know, that's, that, that is what, that is what it
30:31is in 2024.
30:33Right.
30:34Right?
30:34And so on, because everything evolves, right?
30:37These women have advanced in their, their skills, in terms of whining, they hardly ever
30:44do a social wine anymore.
30:46Niall, am I correct or wrong?
30:47I mean, I mean, I mean.
30:48So this is, what you say, this is our showcase to the world, as an identity to, this is our
30:54dance.
30:54But the showcase will evolve like everything else.
30:56Correct.
30:56So this is our dance.
30:56So we don't know what will happen 10 years from now, what the whining will become.
31:00Sure.
31:00Right?
31:00But it will still be part of our culture.
31:02Of course.
31:03So this is our dance, Johan, say.
31:05I, listen, I, I'm not disagreeing enough, I'm just going behind the nuance of it, because
31:10we talk about what the man would think, but think about it the other way around.
31:14If I put a woman on my shoulder, right?
31:16Mm-hmm.
31:16Right?
31:18My, and I, I tell my wife, that's just platonic.
31:22You, you think she would take it now.
31:23I use it, I use it, I say my wife, but think, think a woman.
31:26You have a wife, a girlfriend, or whatever, and you put a woman on your shoulder, right?
31:32And you think she would be cool with that, and, well, nah, that was just a platonic put
31:36on her shoulder.
31:36There's always a way to cross the line.
31:38Of course.
31:39There's always a way to cross the line.
31:40Yeah.
31:41Every relationship is different.
31:42Okay.
31:43Some men might be okay with a woman taking a little smaller social.
31:46Right.
31:47But the minute that she turn around to face him, you know.
31:51Are you talking about taking a stranger?
31:53Yeah.
31:53Are you talking about a woman who is a complete stranger to your wife and everybody?
31:56No, you see all those dynamics.
31:57I mean, she's part of it.
31:58Let me go to the break.
31:59Let me go to the break.
32:00Let me go to the break.
32:00Because how are else you?
32:01Them dynamics.
32:02We have to come back.
32:03So we're taking, we're taking a short break, you know.
32:05And the question is, does that change if the person, if you're both single?
32:10We're talking as if you have to be, it's everything is a wrong being in a relationship.
32:14We're coming back to whiners, our culture.
32:16It's our dance, Johansi.
32:18It's our dance.
32:19Taking a short break.
32:20We're coming back.
32:50Or is it a cuss here or a cuss here after the fact that not everybody is accepting of whining?
32:58So what I want to get in, in this particular segment, I want to discuss a few things.
33:03One, the impact the music has and the direction to be able to do certain things.
33:09And even in the music videos, is it not telling us exactly what to do, how to behave, how to dance?
33:15And it's either you partake in that or you don't.
33:19And the other thing is, and Johansi, I'd really like you to take the lead on this, is the impact these behaviors have.
33:27When you really, you think you're good with it.
33:30And then something tips.
33:32You know, a woman might feel somebody looking better than her.
33:35Or like you said, the wine was a little too, I find you, you know.
33:38Two seconds too long.
33:39Two seconds too long.
33:40Or the woman, the man themselves find like, you know, I find she was enjoying that.
33:45And a lot of it is because you know how you're thinking when you're doing it.
33:49So therefore, you know that you're automatically thinking that the woman is thinking, doing the same thing by talking to your friends.
33:56Because we always talk about women and guy friends and guys and women friends.
33:59And also, the guy, you as a guy are thinking, I know what I'm doing when I'm whining on that woman.
34:05Correct.
34:06So therefore, that guy doing the same thing, he trying to cop a feel.
34:09Right.
34:10So let me start with Signal with regards to the music and the impact.
34:15Well, I think the music, again, is part of the culture and it's part of the whining culture.
34:18And I think if you, from a young age of understanding that you're listening to music, you're listening to suka music and so on, in the 70s, 60s come up, there was always lyrics about whining.
34:33Right.
34:33And it was always synonymous.
34:35Mind you, in those days, there were also more creative songs as well.
34:39You know, about many different things, right?
34:42And at some point, the jumping and the waving came in as well.
34:46So that became part of the culture as well, waving your flag, jumping in the air.
34:51But whining was always constant, right?
34:54So you still have a lot of music right now that is built around whining because we understand as a country that it's part of the culture, it's part of the carnival, it's part of the whole essence of it.
35:06And it also, in my opinion, identifies our music.
35:10It separates it from other genres of music and so on.
35:14If there isn't something about whining and so on in that music, you would hardly identify it as soca, except for the beat, maybe, or something like that.
35:26So the lyrics has a lot to do with identifying our music, our sound, and part of our culture, you know?
35:34And it's going to take a very long time before that changes.
35:38There may be variations.
35:40But why do we want it to change?
35:42Well, I don't want it to change.
35:44That is we.
35:45But I don't want it to change.
35:46But I also believe that we could have more variation.
35:49Yes.
35:50You know?
35:50And that's where the creative minds have to really go in there and stretch their imagination and do their research or whatever they need to do to really kind of improve upon it, make it more palatable, depending on the direction we want to take this music and this culture.
36:04Because that's an entirely different conversation, again, kind of all as a business and so on, impacting on the world.
36:12You know, we are losing a lot of this culture to other countries right now, right?
36:17Same whining, same everything, same music, same everything.
36:20And then we are exporting a lot of our content, a lot of our productions, right, into other territories and so on.
36:29So we are actually giving them a boost, you know, while I guess it's a revenue earner for some of these private enterprises and so on.
36:37So the music goes with that, you know, as part of the part of our heritage that we export into these different countries and so on.
36:51So I think the question is, you're right, do we want to change it or where do we go with it?
36:57Because I believe that it is a mainstay, it is part of us, right?
37:01What we do with it will determine, you know, how it's accepted worldwide.
37:06I would like to see this music on the Grammys.
37:09I would like to see our artists touring the same way Drake and Rihanna and Taylor Swift would be touring, filling stadiums with thousands of people.
37:20The question is, how do we do that and not lose the identity of it?
37:23So, Signa, let me ask you, a woman, you let a woman throw her legs over here, over here, Vienna?
37:29Women have thrown legs over me many times over.
37:33Plutonically?
37:33Plutonic.
37:34Plutonically.
37:35They meet you, they jump on you, they throw up a leg, they take a ride.
37:39And why is it plutonic?
37:40Because you wasn't on them?
37:42Well, I know for a fact that I wasn't on them, but I also know for a fact that they weren't on me.
37:47How you know that for a fact?
37:48Some of them are close friends, they have boyfriends who we're really close with and so on.
37:54No, I'm not saying they didn't.
37:56Yeah.
37:56But if we go back with culture, I like what you said before, the creativity of the music.
38:02And by definition, we in Trinidad, Caribbean by extent, but we in Trinidad, we have high context language, meaning that I could say one thing and it could mean many different things.
38:13Yes.
38:13And of course, sometimes you don't know exactly what I mean.
38:15I could say the words.
38:17So if I say, I want to put sweetness inside my basket, right?
38:22That means it could be a mango, it could be a Portugal, it could be a wine, it could be something.
38:28And then you say, it's the whole blink.
38:30But she specifically said.
38:32The song is good.
38:33Yeah.
38:33Right?
38:33Because.
38:34I'll tell you what she said and the intent there.
38:36She said, if you're looking for sweetness to put inside a basket, I am the whole market.
38:42Correct.
38:43We can't even clarify it.
38:45And that's the thing.
38:46Who doesn't like to go to the market?
38:48That.
38:48You see, you being.
38:49I don't go to the market, so.
38:51He being sarcastic.
38:52We have a different impression of what that market mean in our minds.
38:56Which is fine, you know.
38:57That's the artist.
38:57And I like that Trinidad.
38:59We go to that.
39:00But it brings in the difficulty of now what each person mean by it.
39:04Right.
39:05Right?
39:05And then we come in the nuance of what the dance mean.
39:08And then before the break.
39:10All the songs, even we use it on manhood.
39:14We say one thing and Nyle is our specialist in that.
39:16Listen, it could be a triple entange because it could be a quadruple entange because all four of us have a different opinion.
39:25Which when you go out in that carnival, carnival, fete, how you dress, you don't know.
39:29Which is why, let me go with the couples.
39:31I agree that couples should have a discussion.
39:34Of course.
39:34And set boundaries so that both people know exactly what it is.
39:38So I go with couples.
39:39Then I go with even friends.
39:40You go out in that group.
39:42You should still have, I wouldn't say rules, but understanding.
39:45Because let me say a woman attracted a man coming in.
39:49Right?
39:49That man, the group might want.
39:51It's a carnival contract.
39:53I love it.
39:54It's sounding a little too obtuse, but let me say a carnival contract.
39:57Right?
39:58And even vice versa.
39:59A man in the group might bring in a girl in the group and it doesn't resonate.
40:03So you have to know what you're attracting.
40:07So that conversation should be had.
40:10Now, of course, that's within people who know each other.
40:12So that common sense is established.
40:14But if a stranger's on the road, it mightn't have that common sense.
40:18So the only caveat, which could be real difficult, I would say, is respect.
40:23Right?
40:23If you're going to dance with somebody and you're doing something and you realize or you detect that they don't want it,
40:31I would say don't force it.
40:32And then the vice versa is that everybody has responsibility.
40:36Because we cannot predict how somebody reacts to how we dress.
40:40So if it have 10 men, out of 10 men, 9 men wouldn't come and touch you, wouldn't try nothing,
40:48have the possibility to have one man versus, and I'm using men too, because many men, including myself,
40:53it have men who come and grab you.
40:56Grab you.
40:56Right?
40:56So that's happened all the time.
40:58That happens.
40:59And men, the funny thing is men sometimes, because we're less accustomed to that, it's more traumatic.
41:05But don't you think there are women who could predict how the reaction by men?
41:09There are women that are just so sexy.
41:11They look so good.
41:12Anything they dress in, anything they wear.
41:16And they have a ratio of men over the years that are attracted to them.
41:19They can't go anywhere.
41:20They can't do anything.
41:21They can't think straight.
41:23Right?
41:23As they walk out the house and they walk down the road or they come out the car, it's men, men in effect.
41:29Men, men, men, men, men.
41:31There are those who could predict and some of them take advantage of it.
41:34So then you should be aware, because again, I'm saying every man and woman is responsible for their behavior.
41:40But one, you never know what somebody's thinking.
41:42And two, if you know, as you say, you usually attract people to you, then be prepared to manage that attraction in some way.
41:51You have to be able to manage it.
41:53And I'll give an example real quick.
41:55I had a few female clients, one in particular, who had difficulty setting boundaries with men.
42:01Right?
42:02And sometimes when I do therapy, we go on the field.
42:05So there's a group of us, and she was in a party.
42:08And we wanted to see how she reacted in the party.
42:11Now, I told her, dress how you want to dress.
42:14She's a very attractive, sexy woman.
42:16And men all over.
42:17And the funny thing is, even though she knew she could attract the men, she had no tools to stop them.
42:24So we saw many times that men was talking to her too long.
42:27She even give people her number.
42:29And what she was just saying is that she don't want any conflict, so she just wanted to get rid of the people by giving in.
42:35Now, I give that example because if you're bringing in, if you know you're bringing in the attraction, have the tools to manage it.
42:42But, again, the men and the women is their responsibility to not violate you, but also if you know you're attracting it, have the tools to manage it.
42:50So I just want to, because I listened to your auntie, but I can't help but hear the maracas as he's shaking with the mouth.
42:59I hope in the audio, you're good with that.
43:01I tried to subtly kind of mention it here.
43:04But what I want to, because we are very close to giving our closing thoughts, and I want to come back to what our position is on, is culture, are we still, and it is our culture.
43:18I don't think that's up for debate.
43:19Are we still accepting of the fact that whining in this new era is still accepting of that?
43:31Are we going through a transition where the older folks with the new Gen X and Gen Zs and so on generation is accepting of those types of behavior?
43:42For me, I look at it like it's wildness.
43:45So I don't even look, there's not even platonic or it's sexual.
43:47The dance is sexual.
43:49The dance comes from Africa, right?
43:52If you look at the background, it originates from there.
43:56We know how to move.
43:58And as part of that, when it's in the bedroom, we enjoy it, right?
44:03That same movement, it's a sexual dance.
44:05How we have desensitized ourselves from that in making it platonic is part of what I would consider out in carnival or a party is wildness.
44:15If somebody comes up on someone, and I'm not at that point thinking, ah, boy, you know, I touched this or this touching that.
44:21It's simply, it was fun.
44:22It was our communication.
44:23It was a handshake in a particular party.
44:26I just, but I really want to, before we close and before we go into the closing thoughts, Johanse, for you to address the other side of you had a good time in a party, you had a good time in carnival.
44:40Well, the persons that you may start off thinking, I accept it, or I accept it in this particular circumstance, but in this one, I'm not accepting of that.
44:49And the ramifications of that, as in domestic violence, people breaking up, fights in the parties.
44:57Back in our day, Signal, remember those parties?
44:59A lot of fights, boy.
45:00Bottle and stone and things like that.
45:02And these things, it's just a new edition of it.
45:07Because of lying, right?
45:11In previous episodes we had, I always talk about being truthful and honest, right?
45:18And that, I think, is the key.
45:20So if you know what you're going out to do, be honest about it.
45:25Be honest with yourself first about it and be honest about it.
45:27Now, if you have a partner and what your honesty is is something that will violate your relationship, the thing is, that's still you being honest.
45:37So if you pretend it's not that, right?
45:40But then your action says otherwise, of course it will cause conflict.
45:45Of course, if you and that person didn't have that discussion, it would cause conflict.
45:49Now, I'm not saying domestic violence or any kind of violence is condoned and is right.
45:53But be honest about it because we have a beautiful culture, you know, right?
45:58But we also have people who lie.
46:01And if you are a liar and I've been straight with that.
46:04Yeah, but do so or like so.
46:05So when you say about lying, you're lying to yourself, yes.
46:08But you might want to appear cool.
46:11Like you wouldn't want to tell your partner, male or female, hey, I don't want you to go and do that.
46:15Because you might, yourself, might want to do it.
46:18And you know they say, what is good for the goose might be good for the gander.
46:21But that's the lying coming from you.
46:22Yeah, that's the lying.
46:23And then your relationship already unhealthy.
46:26So it's a good thing or you have a conflict, a breakup.
46:28If you understand what I was saying.
46:30So then it wasn't based on truth.
46:32So know what you're going out to do.
46:34That's my caveat for that.
46:35And be honest about it.
46:37Yeah.
46:38Yeah.
46:38So as we look to wrap, my closing thoughts would be on the conversation that we've had.
46:44And it's certainly, as we always say on manhood, that we need to have more of these conversations.
46:51And these conversations always come back to things like respect, people feeling disrespected, lying, false sense of reality based on social media, the music, how you present yourself, what your insecurities may be.
47:11And that sometimes comes out in these environments.
47:15So I would say that it is part of our culture.
47:21Wining, it's a dance.
47:25Soca music is the conduit.
47:28It is the platform.
47:30It is what allows us to move like that.
47:33Because we're not going to wine to R&B.
47:35We're not going to wine to our salsa.
47:37There's a dance for that.
47:38And so it's just a matter of how we then have that understanding with a partner or within ourselves when we go out, how we conduct ourselves.
47:49And that male or female, that you know, you know what you're doing.
47:55You know what those moves are about.
47:57You know what you're doing.
47:58J.D.L has a song.
47:59Just know what you're doing.
48:00They know.
48:02Women know when they're whining.
48:06And it is round, round, round, round, round.
48:10You know, you're just, you're going to be transfixed in what's happening.
48:16It's attractive.
48:17But having said that, as you said from the start, Johan, say, men have a choice.
48:25Women have a choice.
48:26Because women also violate.
48:28And if you go and you make an attempt and you get stopped, respect that.
48:35Respect what the woman's boundaries.
48:37Because she herself, even though she's dressed in a particular way, which is her prerogative, and she's dancing in a particular way, she is still coming to that party of her own volition and is entitled to her privacy, respect, and her boundaries.
48:54And we just need to accept that, right?
48:57You know, whether you like it or not.
48:59Whether you're inebriated or sober.
49:03Thanks.
49:03All right.
49:05In closing, for me, similar to the Lambada to Brazil, which is Lambada, it's a very sexual dance.
49:14I'm almost certain that you wouldn't, or any of us would say to our significant other, don't go learn the Lambada with a total stranger, even though it is a very sexual dance, right?
49:24So we will let them do that.
49:25So to me, the application towards whining is almost the same.
49:29It's just a dance.
49:30However, if it is you apply certain intentions to set dance, it can mean anything.
49:36But at the end of the day, it comes down to, if you have a partner, to have an understanding, a general understanding about what your boundaries are.
49:46For me in particular, I don't want my partner's feet leaving the floor.
49:50You can do anything you want.
49:52If your feet leave the floor, you're a whore.
49:55Sorry, I'm joking.
49:56I'm joking.
49:56But just don't get picked up.
49:58That's my only rule, right?
50:00So she can touch her toes?
50:01She can touch her toes.
50:02That's fine.
50:03I can have somebody else touch their toes.
50:05But that's okay, because I know that I just don't want that.
50:08I don't know why.
50:09I just don't want to see my girl feet off the floor.
50:11I can't deal with that somehow.
50:13But other than that, everything cool, right?
50:15And the last thing I would say is that the same way, fellas, and I'm going to talk just to the fellas out there, when a woman is whining by herself in a party and no one whining with her and she's railing his own, that is not an invitation for you to come and say or whine with her or touch her in any way.
50:32The only way you'll know is if she looks at you twice or three times, maybe that might be an invitation.
50:38But it is certainly not.
50:40She's an artist and she's performing an art piece.
50:43Please step back and observe.
50:45That is your only role in that situation.
50:49That's why she's doing it in that particular space.
50:52You're outside the frame.
50:53Stay there.
50:53Stay there.
50:54That's your work.
50:55And ladies, just because a man is a little tall and relatively good looking, that's also not an invitation to touch him, even though he's smiling.
51:04Men also don't like being touched randomly by random strangers.
51:07So, please.
51:10Well, for me, I agree with the comments so far.
51:13But I want to touch on more things, things more like the laws of the country and so on with respect to that.
51:18I think we're not educated enough in terms of what we can and cannot do with respect to touching somebody, approaching somebody, those kinds of things.
51:27We touched on it here for a little bit, but we didn't really elaborate on it.
51:31And I think there needs to be more education in terms of that so that there could be a better understanding of your boundaries, where the law is concerned as well.
51:40Well, maybe we need some sort of collaboration between media, the police, you know, the legal fraternity and so on to really put it out there so that there is a better understanding for persons who, you know, they say ignorance of the law is no excuse, right?
51:58I'm not sure, correct.
51:59But my thing is, if I am to chastise you or to charge you for something, I want to charge you for something that I advertised or educated you on before so that you had an understanding of the charges and so on.
52:15So that you know whatever your intent would be at that point, you would change your mind.
52:21You know, you would have a different thought, you know, based on the laws.
52:26Because I think once men understand the law and once women understand the law, women will know that this man definitely can't come up to me because I know what I can, how I can react or the process that I could go through to really, you know, deal with this man.
52:43We know right and wrong.
52:46We know what's right and wrong.
52:47But what I want to have an understanding of is what is your understanding to close?
52:54What is your understanding of, as Niall said about a woman, the feet can't leave the ground?
52:59What is your boundary?
53:01I don't have a boundary with that.
53:03Again, again, the circumstances will determine the outcome.
53:07So if I'm living in a group of friends and family and the woman wind up on one of my friends and her feet leave the ground, I have no problems with that, right?
53:17But if it's a total stranger, I may have no problems depending on the circumstances.
53:22Again, if she comes and she says, hey, you know, this is John who I haven't seen in 15 years and John came from Canada and they hug up and they take a little wine, I wouldn't have a problem with that, you know?
53:33Somebody else may, you know, right?
53:36So to me, it's one type of thing.
53:38You know, while it is circumstances, there must be reasoning.
53:43There must be some circumstance in we don't do things without reason.
53:46That is true.
53:47Right?
53:47And so on.
53:48So there must be, as you answered what I've said, there must be some sort of understanding.
53:52Now, there could be a conversation before, as you answered what I've said, right?
53:56That you have that conversation before, but am I going to tell my wife, well, honey, I may meet a stranger from Canada who I haven't seen in 10 years.
54:06You know, you don't know what happens sometimes when you're out there, you know?
54:10Well, that's a utopian talk from your answer.
54:12That's ideal to tell my woman, hey, listen, I might go out, I might see two, three, two, three smallies there.
54:18I might be the robot sandwich, just look out for it to them.
54:24No, honestly, I do get what Yoansi is saying, and I do understand it, right?
54:28And what he's saying is quite correct, because that could be the basis for prevention of a lot of breakups and so on, right?
54:35And worse situations and so on, right?
54:37But there are those unique circumstances, those impromptu, on the fly kind of things that happen.
54:45So I guess the conversation with the couple has to be around that somehow, that there may be these impromptu moments, honey, we're going out, we don't know who we'll meet, right?
54:55I say break up, yes, break up.
54:57If it is, that is what, if, Yoansi, Yoansi, take us to the close.
55:03All right, so we're talking about culture, and I think we have a beautiful culture.
55:07We have a space and a place where people could come from all over the world and express themselves, and even express parts of themselves they may not have the comfort to do in their own spaces.
55:19So I think it's a beautiful thing.
55:21And what forms culture is something that happens over and over, over a specific time.
55:26And we also talk about, because we know every carnivalist have breakups.
55:30Every carnivalist have disagreements.
55:31So that breakups and disagreements also have become part of the culture.
55:35So if we look at it from that point of view, that means we could, because culture is not perfect, but if we could see and identify problems, we could also start applying some solutions.
55:47Again, it's not perfect solutions.
55:49And what I was purporting is to start some of the solutions.
55:52Because a conversation for a couple could work, that might not work for a certain couple.
55:57You're talking about respect because it has written laws and unwritten laws, right?
56:02So even understanding that, understanding that you are an attractive man or woman and you will bring in, attract people, understand what that means.
56:11So it's a living reality because reality is carnival.
56:16We know these dynamics.
56:17We know these nuances.
56:19And it happens every year.
56:20So if we know something negative happens every year, let us at least try to correct it, correct what may not be working well and improve on what works well and stay true to ourselves and the culture.
56:35So what about some advice?
56:37Take us to the close there with some advice to young women, women out there, and to men, like, you know, not necessarily do's and don'ts, but a better understanding of how they're showing up.
56:48One, I would say, both male and female, be prepared for attention.
56:54If you're going to a party, be prepared for some sort of attention.
56:57And it also may not be the attention you may want, but be prepared for it.
57:03However, prepare, whether it is you're in a group, whether it is you learn self-defense, whether it is you know where the police officers are in effect.
57:12But even if it's a special way, because people know how to brace a dance gracefully.
57:19So have some sort of defense mechanism.
57:24Have some sort of way, countermeasure, to be able to defend yourself because we don't live in a perfect world.
57:30We're having fun and we're enjoying ourselves in carnival or a party, but it's not a perfect world.
57:35So this is the Manhood Podcast.
57:38Thank you very much for joining us.
57:39I'm so glad that we start back this season.
57:42I remember we are a few men talking to many men and also women.
57:48Thank you very much.