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00:00Manhood, brought to you in part by Solomon's Bespoke.
00:05Manhood, brought to you in part by Reboot Sports Drink.
00:14So welcome to another episode of Manhood.
00:16Today is a very important discussion.
00:18I know that's something I always say,
00:20because all the discussions we generally have
00:22are important and of national interest.
00:25Today the topic is the sound of the clang.
00:28And you may be asking yourself, what is a clang?
00:31Well, that's why we urge you to continue to listen.
00:35And without further ado, let me introduce our panel today.
00:38To my right, Johan Seiyodike, Behavior Change Consultant.
00:42To his right, Om Lala, Attorney at Law,
00:45Honorary Counsel to Slovenia,
00:47and so many other hats that he wears.
00:49And to his right, the vibes God himself, Niall McNish.
00:54So, sound of the clang.
00:56We speak about that, and what it really means is the loss of freedom.
01:02So we're just going to dig straight into it.
01:04You know, I'd normally say my piece with regards to we're not speaking on behalf of all men.
01:09We are few men speaking to all men, and that this is a brotherhood.
01:13And this conversation here today, sound of the clang,
01:15really is about that brotherhood, about human rights,
01:19and about what happens when we lose that freedom.
01:23So let's just dig in straight into,
01:25I know what I mean by sound of the clang, but, you know, let's ventilate.
01:29Well, let me just ask a question first.
01:31Has any one of us here ever had their freedoms removed from them?
01:37Yes, as a child.
01:38I have plenty of things I wanted to do as a child,
01:40and my parents tell me I can't do it.
01:42So, you start at base level, right?
01:46Understanding when I want to go out somewhere,
01:48I want to eat what I want to eat,
01:49and the authority in that, let's say, in the home,
01:54they stop me from doing whatever I want.
01:56And then, let's say, when I go in other environments,
01:59in school, right, there are certain things you cannot do in school.
02:03You might get detention, you might get punishment,
02:06you might get banned, you might get grounded, right?
02:10You can't go out anywhere.
02:11So, that's an early taste of not having your freedom.
02:16I agree, yeah.
02:17You're just a badly behaved child.
02:19Yeah.
02:21I mean, we all have suffered that.
02:23But I'm not free.
02:24I'm not free to do whatever I want.
02:26But it's an understanding at that point that as a child,
02:29you are a child, and you have to come to your parents
02:33and listen to them, and you're under the care of the parent.
02:36And as they would say, if you're a big man, right,
02:39then go out and earn your own money.
02:40But as long as you're living under this roof,
02:42you have to abide by my rules.
02:44So, it's like any other environment.
02:45You know, we're in this studio.
02:46You can't just do what you want, right?
02:48There are rules that have to apply to this studio,
02:51this space, this organization.
02:53And that's part of what makes us, you know, as a society,
02:57it makes us…
02:58Not really, you know.
02:59It's not what I can do what I want.
03:00I could do whatever I want.
03:01There are consequences.
03:02Consequences.
03:03Okay.
03:03Consequences.
03:03But what we're talking a bit more…
03:05And that's a good way to start,
03:06because in your mind at that point,
03:08you can't do what you want,
03:09but you're still, you're not affected in a way
03:12that makes you depressed or…
03:17Debatable or not.
03:18It is debatable.
03:19Okay.
03:19But let's get into really the sound of the clang,
03:22meaning jail.
03:23Right.
03:23And there's a difference in, you know,
03:25whether it be in school,
03:26whether it be your parents,
03:27whether it be at work,
03:28and they're saying, you know,
03:29you want to do this,
03:30but you can't in your job.
03:31You still have freedoms.
03:32You have a choice.
03:34There's a choice,
03:35if we're to use that word.
03:37When you now, as they say, make a jail,
03:41the only choice is how you determine to yourself
03:45that you're going to survive that.
03:48But there are other ways,
03:49there are other ways of your freedom
03:50being removed from you,
03:52rather than making it,
03:52because I was detained already.
03:55That's why I asked the question,
03:56where, you know,
03:57all this time I had a naivety of,
04:00you know,
04:00the consequences never really touch you
04:03until, you know,
04:05a police officer come and,
04:07you no longer have the choice to do anything.
04:09You are now, you know,
04:11under controlled,
04:12being controlled.
04:13That was the most terrifying thing to me.
04:16And a lot of people
04:17never experienced that.
04:18So, when you say the sound of the clang,
04:20right,
04:21to me it was sound of the click,
04:22right?
04:23And it really touched a nerve,
04:27especially on this topic.
04:28Now, I found that I was detained unlawfully.
04:34Now, I am not,
04:35I don't,
04:36as an everyday man,
04:37I don't know a lot about the law,
04:39and,
04:40which I should be.
04:41I feel like they should have some education process
04:43to teach at least younger children,
04:45because I was just out of secondary school.
04:47So, I don't want to,
04:48I don't want to cut you there,
04:49but I'm going to cut you only because
04:50part of the discussion here today
04:53is a lot of work that Oum is doing,
04:55specifically with human rights,
04:57and answering those questions
04:58so that you know your rights
05:00in situations like that.
05:02And the conversation would have started
05:05by, you know,
05:06several conversations that myself
05:07and Oum and Prakash and so on had,
05:10where there are two sets of things
05:12that happen.
05:13Two persons,
05:14for all intents and purposes,
05:16are affected.
05:17The one that is in jail
05:19and the person that's outside.
05:20You're both almost living in,
05:22it's almost like someone with cancer.
05:23You know,
05:24the person with cancer is affected,
05:25but the family is also affected.
05:27And when you hear the clang,
05:29the gate actually,
05:30the door actually closes
05:32and it makes that noise clang.
05:34And I know there's a,
05:34there's a theory or a law
05:36or something called clanging gate.
05:38And again,
05:39I thought I was original
05:39with the sound of the clang,
05:41but the clanging gate,
05:43the,
05:43what that,
05:44how that resonates
05:45through your body
05:46or reverberates rather
05:48through your body
05:49at that time
05:49when the reality comes
05:50that wait,
05:52my freedom is now lost,
05:54not just to yourself,
05:55but to the family members
05:56that they can no longer get to you
05:58in a positive way that is,
06:01is something that is beyond comprehension
06:05and om,
06:06you know,
06:07we want to hear firsthand
06:08some of those experiences
06:09and what,
06:10what,
06:11what that reality is like
06:12because most of us
06:13have never even seen a jail cell.
06:14We don't even know
06:15where it exists,
06:16whether it be in a,
06:17the,
06:17the court of justice,
06:19whether it be in Orange Grove,
06:20whether it be.
06:21Can we start with,
06:22what's the description
06:23between a jail
06:24and a prison
06:25or maximum,
06:26maximum security prison?
06:29Like,
06:29what's the difference?
06:30Well,
06:31the maximum security
06:32is a jail,
06:33but there are different degrees
06:35of jails
06:36in terms of security,
06:37housing prisoners,
06:39where they're kept
06:39in terms of the risk,
06:42there's remand,
06:43remand means
06:44you're not yet convicted,
06:46you're pending,
06:47you're hearing.
06:48That's what remand yard is.
06:49So that's what remand yard refers to.
06:51So there's remand yard
06:52in Port of Spain.
06:52It was remand yard.
06:54So remand yard
06:55is a term that refers to you
06:57if you can't get bail,
06:58if bail is refused
07:00and you're waiting the trial.
07:02So innocent until proven guilty.
07:04Okay.
07:05Then if you're convicted,
07:07then you go to serve your term
07:08either in Carrera,
07:09Port of Spain
07:10or in one of the Eruca prisons
07:12that,
07:12that would house you
07:13according to the,
07:14the seriousness of your offense.
07:16Okay.
07:16Now,
07:17when we're looking at this context,
07:19of this discussion,
07:20it's important
07:21to realize that we,
07:22there's a presumption
07:23of regularity in the system.
07:25In other words,
07:26everything is meant to operate
07:28in a perfect world.
07:29That's why laws are created.
07:31That's why you trust
07:32that all police officers
07:34are decent,
07:35law abiding.
07:35They comply with the law.
07:37The judicial system
07:38works properly.
07:39There's fairness.
07:40So in an ideal world,
07:42it should work perfectly.
07:44But with anything
07:45far from that,
07:47and that's where
07:48the breaches
07:48of human rights
07:49take place.
07:49So like you rightly say,
07:51you think you were
07:51unlawfully detained.
07:53It's probably upon
07:54an examination
07:55with facts,
07:56you were unlawfully
07:57detained.
07:58And why this conversation
07:59is important now,
08:01it becomes even more
08:02dangerous
08:03when crime is high.
08:05And we all live in fear.
08:06So there's a greater,
08:08there's a greater belief
08:11that let the police
08:12do whatever they have to.
08:13Give them free reign.
08:14But when the free reign
08:16takes place,
08:18then there are breaches
08:19that take place also.
08:21And then what happens
08:21to the innocent people
08:22who because this broad brush,
08:25crime,
08:26go ahead and run
08:26free reign
08:27because I just want
08:28crime to end.
08:29Then you have the errant
08:30and the delinquent
08:31and the corrupt police officers
08:33who not only break the law
08:34but go beyond
08:35what is lawfully,
08:36they're lawfully entitled to do.
08:38So I mean,
08:38if you have committed
08:40a crime and caught red-handed
08:41and there's solid evidence
08:43and you have to go
08:43through due process,
08:44so be it as an international process.
08:47What our concerns are
08:48is what happens
08:49in the cases
08:50where there's an abuse
08:51of process by the police,
08:53where they go beyond
08:54what they're lawfully entitled to do
08:56but the system allows them
08:57to do it.
08:58And that's where
08:58the danger takes place.
09:00So it's one thing that,
09:01yes,
09:01you want people to be arrested,
09:03you want crime rate to go down,
09:04you want murder to go down,
09:06but at the same time
09:08you can't give them
09:09a broad brush
09:10and say,
09:10well,
09:10let's surrender all our rights.
09:12Then you end up
09:13in a Syria type
09:14of environment
09:14where those who hold
09:16the power
09:16are allowed to do
09:18whatever they want
09:19with the power.
09:19And that's why lawyers
09:20play an important role
09:22to hold them
09:23to task
09:25in what they're doing.
09:26Now,
09:27sadly,
09:28gone are the days
09:28where you had a lot
09:29of vocal,
09:30vociferous lawyers
09:31fighting the system.
09:33I remember
09:34as a young lawyer
09:34the names
09:35of Desmond,
09:36Alam,
09:37Frank Solomon,
09:38Carl Hudson,
09:38Phillips,
09:39well,
09:39Ramesh Maraj
09:40is still around,
09:41but they were
09:41constantly fighting
09:43and people look to them,
09:44well,
09:44you're a lawyer,
09:45you're this,
09:46that,
09:46why you're fighting
09:46the system,
09:47but it's not that.
09:48It is making sure
09:49the balance operates
09:50because if you don't have
09:51somebody constantly
09:52creating the check
09:53and balance,
09:54then you're allowing
09:55people to say,
09:56well,
09:56I can do what I want.
09:57And what disturbs me
09:59now is a young
09:59generation of lawyers,
10:01very few of them
10:02are inclined
10:02to even challenge
10:03the system.
10:04You have a few
10:05that are doing it,
10:05but gone are the days
10:07of the elders
10:09in the profession
10:09who took it
10:10very seriously
10:11and constantly did it.
10:13So the police
10:13always felt
10:14that level of pressure,
10:16lawful pressure,
10:17not anything
10:18of an abusive nature.
10:19And if you lose that,
10:21then the average citizen
10:22who can't afford
10:23a lawyer,
10:24who does not know
10:25what to do,
10:26is taken advantage of
10:27because nobody's there for him.
10:28What do you think
10:29account for that
10:30younger generation
10:32not standing up?
10:33Well,
10:34what has happened,
10:34there's been a water
10:35tearing down
10:36of the entire
10:37legal profession.
10:38You have 300 lawyers
10:39coming out a year now.
10:41You don't have
10:41the pupillage systems
10:43of long,
10:43back in the day
10:44where you had to go train,
10:46where you understood
10:46the value of
10:47doing pro bono work,
10:49doing free work,
10:50coming out as a young lawyer.
10:51That's all you did,
10:52free work,
10:53because you have
10:53no experience.
10:54But now,
10:55that is no longer the norm.
10:57People don't even,
10:58young lawyers
10:58are not interested in that.
11:00And then also,
11:00the system
11:01becomes very onerous
11:03and it can
11:03become almost
11:05vindictive against you.
11:07Why are you fighting
11:07the police?
11:08Why are you fighting
11:08the system?
11:09Why are you fighting
11:09the state?
11:10And then people want
11:11to move away from you
11:12because you become
11:13a rebel rouser
11:14all of a sudden.
11:15And people don't realize
11:16that it's not being
11:17a rebel rouser,
11:17it's making sure
11:18the system works.
11:20And with less and less
11:21lawyers who are
11:22prepared to stand up,
11:24then you have an
11:25undermining of the system
11:26taking place.
11:26And for us to sit down
11:28and hope that nothing
11:29happens and it's only
11:31the bad guys get
11:32locked up,
11:33then we're living
11:33in fool's paradise.
11:34Because anything
11:35could happen to any
11:36one of us at any time
11:37and then you ask
11:38yourself,
11:39well,
11:39who come in to
11:40protect me?
11:40Agreed.
11:41So one thing I know,
11:43Om,
11:43and we want to talk
11:44about it more in
11:44this segment too,
11:46you're taking front
11:47on that.
11:48You're being one
11:49of those persons
11:49to sort of
11:50reignite that passion
11:53and as one of the,
11:55I would say,
11:57you know,
11:57that a lot of lawyers
11:59up and coming
11:59and even ones
12:00that exist there
12:01that you mentor them
12:02or they look up to you
12:04in some of the
12:05human rights programs
12:06that you're involved
12:07in at the moment.
12:08What I want to come
12:09back to just for
12:10a better understanding
12:12because we want to
12:12really talk about
12:13the sound of the clan.
12:15You know,
12:15lawyers,
12:16as most people know,
12:17you know,
12:17there's,
12:19it's not who's innocent
12:21or who's guilty
12:22is what you could prove.
12:23Right?
12:23So a lot of times
12:24it's who have the better
12:24lawyer,
12:25who's done the research.
12:26But innocent or guilty,
12:28people end up behind bars.
12:30I want you to,
12:31based on your experiences,
12:33not just defending families
12:34but being in this environment
12:35for plus 20,
12:3730 years,
12:39what,
12:40paint a picture
12:40of what that looks like
12:41to anybody thinks
12:42that,
12:43who's out there
12:43thinking to themselves,
12:45I could handle that.
12:46And most people
12:48can't handle that
12:49because psychologically,
12:50remember,
12:51we have a constitution
12:52right to freedom
12:53of movement.
12:54So we are brought up
12:56knowing that
12:56we can go anywhere,
12:57do anything we want,
12:58subject to the rules.
13:00But the minute
13:01handcuffs goes on your hand
13:02and your hands
13:03are put behind your back
13:04and you realize
13:05you can't move,
13:06you can't go anywhere,
13:08they put you in a cell.
13:09And remember,
13:10most of the cells
13:11in police stations
13:12are the most horrible
13:13conditions you can imagine.
13:15Five,
13:16six people in a cell,
13:17sometimes a slop bucket,
13:18no bathroom,
13:20the stench is incredible.
13:21Elaborate with a slop bucket.
13:23Slop bucket.
13:24In prison,
13:25for example,
13:25you'll have 10 men
13:26in a cell,
13:27no bathroom,
13:28so they'll have
13:29like a paint bucket,
13:30a five-gallon paint bucket
13:31with a cover
13:32and you want to use
13:33the bathroom,
13:34that's what you use.
13:35And once for the day
13:36you clean it.
13:37So the sanitary conditions
13:38are horrible.
13:40Now,
13:40the fact that
13:41I am innocent
13:42until proven guilty,
13:44should I be put
13:45in that condition
13:46and psychologically tortured?
13:48The answer is no,
13:49but many cases
13:51have been brought
13:52before the courts.
13:52Even the time factor
13:54it takes to be
13:54matters to be dealt with.
13:56And they all fail
13:57because the system
13:58is unable
13:59to keep up
14:00with the measures
14:02they need to put in place
14:03to allow you
14:04to be given
14:06proper conditions.
14:08Prakash did a case
14:09recently
14:09in the high court.
14:1224 years later,
14:14the trial
14:15is commenced
14:15and continues.
14:17Finishes,
14:17the men win.
14:19Now,
14:1924 years
14:20your life is on hold.
14:21Your family's property
14:23is tied up for bail.
14:24You are psychologically
14:26tortured
14:26and it's considered
14:27as an acceptable practice.
14:29Nobody raises
14:30an eyebrow.
14:31So if you're innocent
14:32of whatever offense
14:34they charge you
14:35with,
14:35assault,
14:36whatever it is,
14:37you have to cater
14:39that it's five
14:39to ten years
14:40for a trial.
14:41The most serious
14:42a murder trial
14:43takes 15 years.
14:44What happens
14:44when you're innocent?
14:46So yes,
14:47we think,
14:47well,
14:47if you're charged guilty
14:48let the system
14:49condemn you
14:50because we're all
14:50terrified by crime
14:52that the system
14:52is failing.
14:53But what happens
14:54to that innocent person
14:56wrong place,
14:57wrong time,
14:58police induce them
15:00to do something,
15:01sign a statement,
15:02all of a sudden
15:02case closed
15:03and you're sitting
15:04there for 20 years
15:05waiting,
15:06hoping your lawyer
15:07is good enough
15:08to get you out
15:09and the system
15:10fails you completely.
15:12So I have done
15:13so many cases
15:14when I was
15:15more in the criminal
15:16arena
15:17of false confessions
15:19where the police
15:20will induce you,
15:21come,
15:21don't worry,
15:22sign this,
15:23they will write it off,
15:24cooperate with us,
15:25you're going home.
15:26You sign in a way
15:27all your rights,
15:28you don't know better.
15:29And even,
15:30I had somebody
15:31recently come to see me,
15:32the police wanted
15:33a statement
15:34that in a matter
15:35I give them
15:36general advice,
15:37listen,
15:38be careful,
15:40make sure you have
15:40a lawyer.
15:41And people say
15:41you want a lawyer
15:42because lawyers
15:43are trying to
15:44promote themselves,
15:44but it's not that.
15:45We understand
15:46the principles of it
15:47and we understand
15:48psychologically
15:49your brain
15:50goes into a different
15:51mode when your
15:52rights are taken
15:53away from you.
15:54So as good and bad
15:55and powerful
15:56as you think you are,
15:58they put you in a room
15:59and leave you for
15:5910 hours to wait,
16:01sit down,
16:01no food,
16:02nothing,
16:03and you are handcuffed
16:04and they come and say
16:05you want to go home?
16:06Come,
16:07let's have a discussion,
16:08let's sign this.
16:09Well in your brain
16:10you say I just want
16:11to go home.
16:12You're not thinking
16:13well I could be
16:14entrapped in a situation
16:15like that.
16:16And very often
16:17people sign things
16:17they don't even know
16:18what they're signing
16:19or they don't even
16:20agree to it
16:20or they're misled
16:21into signing things
16:22that incriminate them.
16:24If I could interrupt
16:25one,
16:25I could give
16:26two quick examples
16:27and I know we had
16:27to go to a break.
16:29Quick example is
16:30why,
16:30why having a lawyer
16:32is not just to promote
16:33but it's important
16:34because I had
16:35carry my mom
16:36car to clean
16:37by a well-known
16:39car wash
16:40right with a lot
16:40of immigrants
16:41right
16:42and they broke
16:44the review mirror
16:46and I was,
16:48they indicated
16:49that well
16:49it breaks
16:50so you had to
16:51take care of it
16:52but I was like
16:52but I didn't break it,
16:54it came off
16:55and I said
16:57I want to speak
16:57to a manager
16:58nobody was
16:59taking me on
16:59they were just
16:59busy telling me
17:00well hard luck
17:01for me now.
17:02It's only when
17:02I pull up my phone
17:03and say well
17:04I'm going to
17:04call my lawyer
17:05then suddenly
17:08a manager
17:09appeared
17:09then suddenly
17:10I started
17:10getting calls
17:11so I say that
17:12because even
17:13to those
17:13out there
17:14you don't have
17:15to have
17:15the most
17:16expensive
17:17lawyer
17:17but at least
17:18as a citizen
17:19being able
17:20to exercise
17:21your right
17:22through the law
17:23is important
17:24because people
17:24will try to
17:25take advantage
17:26of you.
17:27So with that
17:28we're talking
17:29about human rights
17:30the rights
17:31that you may have
17:32that you have to know
17:34we have Om Lala here
17:35and we're going
17:35to have a break.
17:47Welcome back
17:48to the manhood
17:48I'm Om Lala
17:49discussing
17:50the sound
17:50of the clang
17:51now I have
17:53engaged in an
17:54exercise of
17:55going to
17:55communities
17:56a lot of
17:57what I have
17:58found over the
17:58years
17:58people don't
17:59know the
17:59basic rights
18:00in the country
18:01and while you
18:02need a lawyer
18:02it's important
18:03that we're taught
18:04in schools
18:05and we all
18:06know what
18:06our basic
18:07rights are
18:07and so many
18:09people are
18:09taken advantage
18:10of because
18:10they don't
18:11know the
18:11simple rights
18:12that have
18:12the right
18:13to remain
18:13silent
18:14I have the
18:15right to
18:15a lawyer
18:16friend or
18:17relative
18:17I have the
18:18right to know
18:18what you're
18:19investigating
18:19why you're
18:20arresting me
18:21so these are
18:22fundamental
18:23principles
18:24but these are
18:25brushed under
18:26the carpet
18:26and it's only
18:27when a lawyer
18:27comes in
18:28he's the one
18:29who is authorized
18:30to tell you
18:30those are your
18:31rights
18:31and I think
18:33everybody should
18:34know what the
18:34basic lawful
18:35rights are
18:36this is not a
18:36secret
18:37so I have been
18:38going to
18:39communities
18:40my friend
18:41Gavin
18:41hero who is
18:42a military
18:44specialist
18:45has accompanied
18:46me
18:46and more
18:47and more
18:47communities
18:48are calling
18:48us
18:48just a
18:49lecture
18:49in terms
18:50of teaching
18:51people
18:52what their
18:52basic rights
18:53are
18:53how do you
18:54understand
18:55when you're
18:56confronted
18:56when do you
18:57give a statement
18:58when do you
18:58not give a
18:59statement
18:59how you could
19:00implicate yourself
19:00how do you
19:01get bail
19:02how does
19:03this system
19:03work
19:04because we
19:05can't survive
19:06living in a
19:06bubble
19:07hoping that
19:08nothing bad
19:09happens
19:09and when it
19:10happens
19:10we could get
19:11the right
19:11lawyer to
19:12get us
19:12out
19:12but very
19:13often I tell
19:14people your
19:15first 24 hours
19:16of any
19:17situation is
19:18your most
19:18critical
19:19the best
19:20lawyer in the
19:20world can't
19:21help you if
19:22you implicate
19:23yourself
19:23and people
19:25sign away
19:26their rights
19:26all the time
19:27in the country
19:28and I've
19:28heard even
19:29young lawyers
19:29telling clients
19:30that you
19:31need to give
19:32the statement
19:32because they
19:33ask you
19:33now I
19:34don't mean
19:35don't give
19:36a statement
19:36in the context
19:37of not
19:38cooperating
19:39with the
19:39police
19:40but you
19:40have to
19:41understand
19:41the context
19:42of what is
19:42happening to
19:43you
19:43is something
19:44wrong here
19:45am I
19:45under
19:45investigation
19:46the minute
19:47the police
19:47say you
19:48can't
19:48leave
19:49and they
19:50very often
19:50will tell you
19:51you're not
19:51under arrest
19:51but can I
19:52leave
19:52no you're
19:53under arrest
19:53once you
19:54detain my
19:55freedom
19:55there's
19:55arrest
19:56so police
19:56will tell
19:57people don't
19:58worry you're
19:58not under
19:58arrest but
19:59don't leave
19:59the room
19:59there's
20:00arrest
20:00and once
20:01you know
20:02you're
20:02under arrest
20:03well hold
20:03on something
20:04wrong here
20:05because now
20:05I am the
20:06subject and
20:07if I'm the
20:08I'm saying
20:09because very
20:10often you
20:11might say
20:11something
20:12innocently
20:14thinking it's
20:15the truth
20:15and it may
20:16be the
20:16truth but
20:17the English
20:17language is
20:17a funny
20:18thing and
20:19we come
20:19back to
20:19lawful
20:20firearm
20:20cases I've
20:21done so
20:22many cases
20:23where people
20:23are involved
20:24in situations
20:24of self
20:25defense
20:25they give
20:27an account
20:27under a
20:29fearful
20:30sort of
20:31traumatized
20:32environment
20:33and the way
20:34they worded
20:34it makes
20:35them the
20:36subject of
20:36being charged
20:37and then
20:37ten years
20:38later they
20:38still waiting
20:39for a
20:39trial
20:39but the
20:40fact is
20:41in principle
20:42they're
20:43innocent
20:43but the
20:43way they
20:44explained
20:44it
20:44and you
20:45have to
20:45understand
20:45once police
20:46arrest you
20:47or you're
20:47in that
20:47traumatic
20:48situation
20:48unless you're
20:49very tough
20:51mentally
20:52that trauma
20:53that runs
20:54you
20:54the first
20:55things I
20:55want to get
20:56out of here
20:56I want to
20:58see what
20:59best I could
21:00do to
21:00release
21:00my
21:00so you're
21:01going to
21:01think in
21:02your brain
21:02well okay
21:02this man
21:03been real
21:04nice to
21:04me
21:05and they
21:05always play
21:06good cup
21:06bad cup
21:07somebody
21:07will come
21:07and rough
21:07you up
21:08somebody
21:08will come
21:08and say
21:08don't worry
21:09it's
21:09all right
21:09and you
21:10all that
21:10is operating
21:11in your
21:11head
21:11how I
21:12getting
21:13out of
21:13here
21:13and that
21:14is like
21:14the more
21:15you try
21:16the tighter
21:16the noose
21:17comes around
21:17your neck
21:18I could
21:19I could
21:19interject
21:20to add
21:21to what
21:21you're
21:21saying
21:22in my
21:23professional
21:24capacity
21:24some years
21:26ago I
21:26worked for
21:27the victim
21:27support unit
21:28of the
21:29TTPS
21:30and in
21:31that capacity
21:32you get
21:33to support
21:34the victims
21:36of crime
21:38but sometimes
21:38even in the
21:39station itself
21:40because we
21:40used to have
21:41duties
21:42in the
21:42station
21:42just in
21:43case anybody
21:43need any
21:44assistance
21:44and you
21:46would see
21:46the difference
21:47the psychological
21:48difference
21:49because somebody
21:50could come
21:50in big and
21:51strong with
21:51bravado
21:52but once
21:52the police
21:53say you
21:53can't leave
21:54that changes
21:55you know
21:56right and I
21:57say that
21:57because plenty
21:58of people
21:58feel the
21:59big and
21:59bad
22:00right
22:00I've even
22:02seen people
22:02from let's
22:04say places
22:04I've grown
22:05up where
22:05you know
22:06the bad
22:07man thing
22:07but once
22:08they're in
22:09that station
22:09once they're
22:10behind bars
22:11it's a change
22:12but sometimes
22:13you don't even
22:13know who
22:14talking to
22:15I remember
22:15once doing
22:16some counseling
22:17in prison
22:17passing by
22:18somebody called
22:19my name
22:20right and
22:21even the
22:21way they
22:21spoke I
22:23couldn't
22:23believe it's
22:24this person
22:24because outside
22:25I know the
22:26kind of attitude
22:27and the
22:27kind of
22:27personality
22:28they have
22:29but then
22:29they say
22:30Johansi
22:30and when I
22:32realized who
22:32it is
22:33and if it
22:34was a big
22:35dog outside
22:36now it's
22:36just a puppy
22:37right and
22:38it's not
22:38putting shade
22:39on the
22:39person or
22:40bad talking
22:40them anyway
22:41because all
22:42of us
22:42right even
22:44being in
22:44prisons I
22:45remember the
22:45first time
22:46being in
22:46I think it was
22:47Portisbury prison
22:48was the first
22:48prison even
22:49just the
22:49environment
22:50right and
22:51this wasn't
22:52even in a
22:53working capacity
22:54I went to
22:54visit someone
22:55right and
22:56just being
22:56there it
22:58was it was
22:59humbling it
23:00was I felt
23:01small in a
23:02big place
23:03right standing
23:04up outside
23:05waiting in line
23:06to go in now
23:06you didn't even
23:07reach inside
23:07yet so I
23:08say not because
23:09plenty of people
23:09say I could
23:10make a jail
23:11right I
23:12could I
23:13could handle
23:13police I
23:14could handle
23:14certain things
23:15now this is
23:16not to instill
23:16fear but it's
23:18to understand
23:19that sometimes
23:20you're saying
23:21something and
23:21you don't have
23:21no knowledge
23:22of it
23:22because I
23:24wanted to ask
23:25the question
23:27or the input
23:29but that is
23:29the nature of
23:30this conversation
23:31here today when
23:32I see the sound
23:33of the clang
23:33when you feel
23:34you could handle
23:35it but like
23:35you said you
23:36have no
23:37knowledge of
23:38it and that
23:38is what we
23:39hear to discuss
23:40here today
23:40because I
23:41want you know
23:42being first
23:43handed that
23:44and of course
23:44you being just
23:46as curious as
23:46I am for
23:48us to really
23:49have an
23:49understanding of
23:50what that
23:51means to
23:52so persons
23:52they you
23:53know you
23:54see measure
23:56twice cut
23:56once to
23:57really think
23:58before you
23:59act because
24:00when you go
24:01down that
24:01rabbit hole
24:02or it's
24:02presented to
24:03you whether
24:03you're looking
24:03for it whether
24:04you've done
24:04something wrong
24:05or not right
24:07the circumstances
24:08jail don't know
24:09no difference
24:09at that point
24:10and the other
24:11things for example
24:12where you spend
24:1324 hours or
24:1448 hours in
24:15jail all of
24:16those things the
24:17impact that will
24:18have on you still
24:18psychologically
24:19because you're
24:20still there's no
24:20difference as
24:21home said there's
24:22no difference
24:22between who you
24:23get put in with
24:24at that point
24:24when you get
24:24put in that
24:25holding cell or
24:26remand it's
24:28everyone waiting
24:29for some sort of
24:29trial so I'm in
24:31remand yard I am
24:33there for some
24:35small infringement
24:36you telling me that
24:37I'll be sitting or
24:38in a cell with
24:39someone who
24:40potentially a
24:41murderer
24:41you're sitting
24:42with everybody
24:43something as
24:43simple as child
24:44maintenance and
24:46the issue a
24:46warrant for you
24:47you in the
24:48same remand
24:49yard with the
24:49man charged for
24:50murder and
24:51remember the
24:51gang culture in
24:52prisons is a
24:53serious thing so
24:55you also have to
24:56learn how to
24:56survive inside it
24:57so it's not that
24:58you're going there
24:59and you're a bad
24:59man you know
25:00there are rules in
25:01prison there are
25:02gangs that operate
25:03and there are
25:04procedures that
25:05operate so you're
25:06stripped of not
25:07only a dignity but
25:08psychologically you
25:09have to decide how
25:10do you survive in
25:11there and as
25:12much as people
25:12feel all right I
25:13could deal with
25:13the police I
25:14could do this and
25:14that the reality
25:16of it is you're
25:17dealing with an
25:17imperfect system
25:18too if you had
25:20swift justice to
25:21say all right I'm
25:22arrested but in a
25:23year my matter
25:24would be heard it
25:25could be determined
25:26you could say all
25:26right I could
25:26handle that but
25:27the matters take
25:29so long and
25:30remember our
25:31detection rate and
25:32our prosecution rate
25:33is less than
25:33five percent could
25:34you imagine if
25:35you really started
25:36to lock up people
25:37and you were doing
25:3820-30 percent
25:39these prisons would
25:39be overflowing
25:40and you have so
25:43many people that
25:44go through this
25:44and remember when
25:45you come out of
25:46it and you come
25:46out of prison you
25:47are never
25:47psychologically the
25:48same you know
25:49agreed so I
25:50want I want you
25:50I want Johansi to
25:52talk a bit more
25:52about that so guys
25:53I want you all to
25:54remember these
25:54points I want you
25:55to talk more about
25:55what the psychological
25:56impact is when you
25:58leave when you if
25:59you if you do get
26:00your freedom back
26:01again the
26:01psychological impact
26:03it has on your
26:03family and I've
26:06given everybody
26:06little points that I
26:07want them to touch
26:08on so Omar also
26:09wanted to talk more
26:10about charge
26:11different between
26:12charge and conviction
26:13because people are
26:14working about being
26:15charged and their
26:15case hasn't been
26:16seen for 20 years
26:17but before we get
26:19into that Niall I
26:20wanted to express
26:22having got that
26:23information tell me
26:26what goes on in
26:27your mind now
26:27well a lot actually
26:30well one what I
26:32would question is
26:33isn't the point of
26:34prison to crush you
26:36mentally like isn't
26:37that the whole point
26:39of you know removing
26:41certain individuals
26:43from society to to
26:45to to to basically
26:47squeeze to squeeze
26:49their squeeze them
26:50mentally I'm trying to
26:51find the best ways
26:52because my mind is a
26:54punishment and that's
26:55what I wanted to
26:56ventilate and I
26:56wanted I want to
26:57explore what because
26:58right now your mind
26:59is is is blown in
27:00many ways for sure
27:01right because of this
27:02information which is
27:03what we're trying to
27:04communicate to everyone
27:05out there based on
27:07first-hand information
27:08from home but I know
27:09you experience in it I
27:11know I've had so many
27:12conversations home about
27:13this so I'm not I'm
27:15not less blown away by
27:17it because I still I
27:19haven't had a nor do I
27:20want to have the
27:21experience but that
27:23visual that that that
27:25is that he's painting
27:26there and you know
27:26his home lala so it's
27:27first-hand as somebody
27:29who now has probably
27:31taken freedom for
27:32granted and you say
27:33certain things like I
27:34know so-and-so and I
27:35know this one and I
27:36know that one right but
27:38before you get the call
27:39you could be inside
27:41no well for me now
27:42remember I was I was
27:43briefly detained and
27:44what I'd seen hearing
27:46this right showing how
27:47close I was to be
27:48sitting down in
27:49remaniard you know
27:51innocent but I have
27:53to wait there amongst
27:55the the general public
27:57who also they're
27:59waiting for trial you
28:00know I don't know
28:01what other people
28:01doing guilty or
28:02innocent but I was I
28:03could easily be that
28:04close so if it wasn't
28:06for that one police
28:08officer who was like
28:09let them let them
28:11boys go now right it
28:13could easily be you
28:15know so so so my
28:16question is it's unfair
28:19it feels unfair it
28:20feels what is even
28:22more unfair remember
28:23if you get charged and
28:24you can get charged
28:25it's a it's an
28:27absurdity we still
28:28have annoying language
28:30obscene language on
28:32our law books that
28:34police I don't like
28:35how you're looking
28:36what you cost me come
28:37here your word against
28:39it since I practice
28:40the charging people for
28:42resisting arrest
28:42obscene language
28:44annoying language and
28:46is your word against
28:47their word annoying
28:47that's on the law
28:49books that's it so
28:50answering back and
28:51things like that
28:52annoying language but
28:53then who is there to
28:54judge it yeah so you
28:55in a situation all of
28:56a sudden handcuff you
28:57in a cell there because
28:58they see a curse and
29:01nobody ever led you to
29:02change this annoying
29:04language you have to
29:05ask the parliamentarians
29:07who sit there how to
29:08perpetuate these things
29:10so the simplest man if
29:12police want to give him
29:13a charge you so so so
29:15you you cost me right
29:17your word against three
29:18years later you go in
29:20the court every time
29:21and bear in mind
29:22remember the hardest
29:23part about it if you
29:24don't come from money
29:25you don't have access
29:26remember how you get
29:27in bail so only now
29:29they're creating cash
29:30sureties that you
29:31could put money but
29:32remember you get
29:33charged for whatever it
29:34is resisting arrest this
29:36that the magistrate says
29:3720,000 bail or something
29:39like that unless they're
29:40putting it sure it
29:41for you to be the
29:43surety but there's a
29:44bail condition most
29:46people can't raise it
29:47and then they don't
29:48have family who have a
29:48deed bail is so a cake
29:51because bail should be
29:54this is important
29:55no this is this I want
29:56to we're going to go to
29:57a break just after but I
29:59wanted to really go
30:00through this is going to
30:02be an extended segment
30:03so don't worry you know
30:04a lot because a lot needs
30:05to be discussed there but
30:07only recently when I say
30:09recently a couple years
30:10back when some friends
30:11of mine were charged
30:14wrongfully you start to
30:17really understand bail and
30:20again another what is
30:22another situation where
30:23people think oh bail I
30:24could just pay that so
30:25oh I want you to go
30:26into it not so easy
30:28and bail in principle is
30:31meant to be a guarantee
30:33that you would actually
30:35show up for a case so the
30:36intention of bail is to
30:38make sure that you have a
30:40hearing you will come you
30:42will attend your hearings
30:43and you'll have a
30:43determined but very often
30:45bail is used as a
30:46punishment and in
30:47legislators like they use
30:48it as a deterrent so
30:50again most people very
30:52who are in remand can't
30:53afford bail in the US you
30:56have something called bail
30:57bonds which is far more
30:59sensible that's where you
31:00have these marshals that
31:01go out bounty hunters so
31:03their duties to make sure
31:04you come to court but you
31:06have a system that is
31:07against the average person
31:09who can't raise bail so
31:10half the people in
31:12remand can't get bail and
31:14it's not a simple case of
31:15just getting the cash
31:16their conditions what's
31:18the condition well the
31:18conditions vary so you
31:20have bail that you can
31:21have in your own
31:21surety where you give a
31:23guarantee you will come
31:24and the most minor
31:25offenses but when it gets
31:27more serious they mean
31:29the security of a property
31:30or they made a cash bond
31:32if you don't if you do
31:34this this this is your
31:36one but no but let me
31:37just let me just try to
31:38clarify certain things
31:39right so boom property
31:41right I have my property
31:43or my mother property
31:44they'll put that up the
31:46deed up for bail I'm able
31:47to go free up before my
31:49case if I don't come to
31:52court what happens but
31:53even that deed is not as
31:54simple as you just have
31:56ownership of your property
31:57and this is remember when
31:58you get if you're arrested
32:00and charged you have to
32:01have not only a deed but
32:03the last land and
32:04billing tax which is like
32:05five years ago and they
32:06collected it was six
32:07years you have to have
32:08water light bill ID as
32:11very often so but so
32:14imagine I can't be
32:14squatting at all well
32:15squatting is out the door
32:17but imagine you get
32:18locked up on a Friday
32:19they say bail you go to
32:21the register and they
32:22say but you don't have
32:22all these things who
32:24keeps all those documents
32:25stand by waiting for
32:27bail correct you know
32:28and the point is it
32:29becomes a lien on the
32:30property so remember how
32:33bail works is if you
32:34don't show up they'll
32:35forfeit either a property
32:37for the value or the
32:38cash so you have to
32:39there'll be a notice of
32:40show cause 10% well the
32:43point is people pay 10%
32:45and it's illegal so
32:46imagine you have a system
32:48which operates very well
32:50where people pay bailers
32:52professional bailers to
32:53get bail because that's the
32:55only way they can do it
32:55but it is an illegal
32:57system so you force people
33:00in a situation where they
33:01have to go and pay people
33:02and that's where you've
33:03seen a lot of fraud cases
33:04with bail deeds being used
33:06five six times for bail but
33:08you give but you give
33:09people no option how many
33:11people have access to a
33:13deed that they could just
33:14see and their parents or
33:15their friend or relative
33:16will say no problem I like
33:17you so much I'm willing to
33:19surrender my deed the world
33:21but the world has moved on
33:24so much in terms of how you
33:25deal with these and we still
33:27live in the dark ages so the
33:29apprehension is real I could
33:31imagine to everyone
33:33listening and viewing out
33:35there the questions you may
33:36have yourself and the alarm
33:38in thought and the unease in
33:41thought at this moment so we
33:42as I said we're going to
33:43extend this particular segment
33:45because this information is
33:46vital it's vital and all
33:50all coming down to the sound
33:51of the clan innocent or
33:53guilty so we take a short
33:54break
33:55hi welcome back to manhood
34:08I'm Niall and we're talking
34:09about the sound of the clan
34:10now I just have a couple more
34:11questions about the bail
34:14structure right how what
34:16exactly happens with the 10%
34:18that I've heard being thrown
34:20about a couple times
34:21before you get there every
34:23offense but most offenses
34:26entitled to bail some do not
34:29entitled to bail recently the
34:31law changed that murder you
34:32can get bail for murder but it's
34:34very very difficult to get
34:35bailed or you can know you can
34:37know but it's very difficult to
34:38get bailed murder and the court
34:41takes into account a number of
34:42factors the seriousness of the
34:44offense your previous criminal
34:46record what is the nature of the
34:49how are aggravating the offenses
34:51and bail conditions usually
34:53relate to that so in other words
34:56the the onerous nature of the
34:58bail depends on the offense so
35:00some of the conditions could be
35:01reporting our police station every
35:03two or three days surrendering your
35:05passport those are restrictions
35:07imposed on you and then the court
35:09can determine a quantum of bail so
35:12they may say look bail with a
35:14surety which means you have to have
35:15a guaranteed bill which where the
35:17deed comes in that may amount a
35:20hundred and fifty thousand dollars
35:22a hundred thousand so that becomes
35:24almost a lien or a hold or call it a
35:26mortgage on the property but the
35:28court may very well also see in the
35:31alternative a cash bond can be paid
35:34which would be a much lower sum could
35:36be twenty thousand twenty five
35:38thousand and that is dealt with the
35:39register of the court so that's how it
35:42works now the common cultures there
35:45are bailers that exist out there and a
35:48bailer normally tell you pay ten percent
35:51of the value of the the bill and we
35:54will organize the
35:55let me just separate so a bailer now i'm
35:58assuming is that they're gonna take on
36:00the responsibility of paying the court
36:03your fee so they they were you know
36:07in them essentially so they would
36:09surrender their deed okay and like i say
36:13that is not a legal recognized
36:15process it exists no so this is not
36:18something that is sanctioned if the
36:19court if the court hears that you're
36:22doing that the court will frown on it
36:23because the court wants to know who is
36:25the bailer what's your relation who is
36:27this person because they want to know
36:29there's a frown on it doesn't mean well
36:31they can also not accept it okay
36:33because but you see that this is very
36:35fast takes place how many people have
36:38access to deeds why not regularize a
36:41system if bill is really meant to allow
36:43your attendance put a robust system in
36:45where you pay ten percent to a bail
36:48bondsman who has a responsibility who's
36:51accountability court who is somebody
36:53that's certified by the system so there's
36:56full accountability so this day and age
36:58imagine you're innocent for for
37:00cussing the police or doing something of
37:02that nature resisting arrest and you can't
37:04get bail and your matter running for two
37:06three years how fair that could be your
37:08life you lose your job your family
37:10doesn't know what to do it complete
37:12disruption so i want i want to because
37:15we could we could go on and on about
37:17what bill is fascinating and not in a
37:20negative sense but again information or
37:22knowledge is power and now you know um
37:26and and so now just to put in context you
37:29don't have a deed for your house
37:30something happens and you don't have the
37:31cash and you decide to go to to get
37:35someone else's deed it's it's illegal
37:37basically
37:39professional you could go to a friend or
37:42relative or somebody you know but there
37:44are people who do this as a profession
37:46that doesn't know it have a whole
37:48strip of course of course correct so
37:50nobody's charged but it's in
37:53principle illegal because the system is
37:55broken so that is the only way you could
37:57go otherwise people would never get bail
37:59right and that should be regularized
38:00necessary that's why it's a necessary
38:02evil but the the courts will know it's
38:04not legal but you have no choice
38:06because how else people access bail
38:09wild to think about and in this day and
38:11age we're still talking about this what i
38:13want to talk because you mentioned it
38:14there in in in passing we speak about the
38:17word charge there are a lot of persons
38:19out there in ether and you know in
38:21environment walking around and have
38:22certain levels of freedom they might not
38:24be in jail but they have that charge
38:26looming on them right now we talked
38:28about the system the judicial system and
38:30it could take years to have your case
38:32called etc and the impact it has on you
38:35in just being charged what what um how
38:40else in terms of the person that's
38:42walking around how else does that impact
38:45you is it is it you can't travel is it
38:47like what are the implications of
38:49somebody walking on anybody who is
38:51charged it has a terrible psychological
38:53impact on them now fortunately no a lot
38:56of people are getting accustomed of
38:58virtual so it's a lot easier but when
39:00you go in court and there's 50 60 people
39:03in a magistrate's court you have to wait
39:05three hours for a matter to be called
39:06and you're sitting with all sorts of
39:08people for charge with different things
39:10it has that psychological impact on you
39:12it's also humiliating and then called
39:14outside you come before the court but
39:16what is what you don't realize something
39:18simple like cussing the police which is
39:21the most basic thing or annoying language
39:24you're resisting arrest you found guilty
39:26for that you might get a fine but your
39:28criminal record stays like a birthmark
39:30for the rest of your life so anything
39:33you're applying for job anything will
39:36come up that you have a criminal record if
39:38convicted if convicted even if you plead
39:41guilty and get a pay a fine no but if
39:42you're if you you could be charged but
39:44then when you get your day in court you
39:45you but exonerated sometimes people
39:48have done so many cases in the past
39:51where people the police say listen boss
39:54just go and plead guilty now the
39:55magistrate will fix you up don't worry
39:57because the police remember they do that
39:58job the quicker they get rid of you the
40:00better and people innocently will say
40:02you know what i plead guilty five years
40:04on the road they're looking for a job
40:06look you have a criminal record here
40:08you car get a u.s visa with a criminal
40:10record with the simplest offense they will
40:13even record expunge after five years
40:16no no it's for life life the only way
40:19to get your record expunge is to apply
40:21to the president so simple matters you
40:24can have that as a a stain for the rest
40:27of your life and very often people
40:29advise you look just plead guilty don't
40:30worry but you don't know what is
40:32operating in the magistrate's mind and
40:34every magistrate all of their rules
40:35they operate by they all are different
40:38in terms of their sentencing practice so
40:40they may just say well look pay a
40:42thousand dollar fine okay i could pay
40:43it and get out of it i know i was
40:45innocent but i don't want to spend the
40:46next five years but with it comes the
40:49stain of that criminal record for the
40:52rest of your life so you're a young
40:53person you're applying for a job you
40:55want to go abroad you want to better
40:56yourself you can't do it you're
40:58finished so long ago a lot of people
41:00got when marijuana was illegal to have
41:03a joint your record finished because of
41:06that so the point is when you're
41:09innocent in an environment that is not a
41:13proper properly administered system so
41:16i might be innocent for whatever
41:17infraction i come with but after five
41:20six seven years of waiting paying lawyer
41:23every three months to go to court my
41:25family deed i just want to get out of
41:27this and i'll just share frustration
41:29sometimes people just buckle under the
41:31pressure it's so much you could take on
41:33no more so that's where it comes back to
41:35the point i made earlier you run on the
41:37presumption of regularity it's a perfect
41:39system but it's not a perfect system and
41:41what i always i'm concerned about is the
41:44people who are innocent who are wrongly
41:46taken advantage of who rights are
41:48infringed and who end up paying a price
41:51for something they never did because of
41:53an imperfect system so really thankful
41:56for of course the work that you do in
41:58home um in taking you know it is you've
42:01you've established yourself um and now
42:04your it's your give back to the community
42:06um and and credit must be given to you
42:09and of course even being here today
42:10sharing sharing that information if you
42:12had if you had five points if somebody
42:14was to hold up their hand and you had you
42:16have you had five points that they would
42:18give because like like ourselves here and
42:20persons outside hearing this information
42:22is going to have people very nervous and
42:26comfortable crime is one thing but to
42:27realize that you could be part and parcel
42:29of that same that same environment and
42:33and the same even innocent and among the
42:36same people that you you now fear what
42:39are five things that you would tell to
42:41that person to maybe alleviate their
42:43fears or just to be prepared for one of
42:46which is probably organized or you know
42:48have some sort of bail plan well first of
42:51all you need to know what your rights are
42:52you need to know you have a right of
42:54silence if you're being accused of
42:56something that's a constitutional right
42:58nobody could tell you or force you have to
43:00speak know that anything you say will
43:03be used against you anything you put in
43:06writing will be used against you
43:09understand also when you're traumatized in
43:11a situation whether it's a fender bender
43:14whether it is a traumatic domestic
43:17situation anything you don't think
43:19clearly and you're likely to say the
43:21wrong thing if you're in a situation
43:24where you feel traumatized say I'm
43:25traumatized I can't say anything right
43:27now if you're put in a situation where
43:30you are arrested detained and wrong
43:32things happen to you they beat you they
43:34threaten you do anything and you're
43:36forced to give a statement do it but
43:38immediately after contact somebody to go
43:41and make a report in a station diary or in
43:44a police station or somewhere that you
43:46have a record that shows at the earliest
43:49opportunity I was forced to do something
43:51that I was not doing of my free will that
43:54can help you in a trial and while we want
43:58the police service to work and while we
44:00always praise the good officers but at the
44:03end of the day we have to have a system
44:05that protects the innocent in the system and
44:07not allow the police to use the system in
44:10a way to victimize people because a lot of
44:12cases there are a lot of rogue officers out
44:15there that take advantage of people and you
44:17have to be aware of your rights and that's
44:19why the community segments I am doing and
44:22anybody who wants to hear from me in any
44:24community church temple community center
44:27contact me I will come a lecture for free
44:30because we need to educate people and so
44:33what their rights are I don't want to give
44:34out your cell number but is there a way to
44:36contact you with is it but I mean they can
44:38call my office 6255074 if you want to set up a
44:43discussion on knowing your rights we need to
44:46educate in the school every child coming out
44:49of O levels should know listen these are my
44:52rights and people look at the rights and
44:54say well you're doing this you're educating
44:56the criminal but it's not that why should we
44:58not as citizens be aware of our rights if you
45:01commit the crime the police with proper
45:02investigation even that statement erroneous
45:05educating the criminals because the the the
45:08criminal element in the country is is less
45:10than 50 percent of the population exactly but
45:12if you're educating you're educating but
45:14there's a misnomer that's why people say if the
45:17police hold you is good for you was doing
45:19something wrong anyway and we have to break
45:22that trend let the police conduct proper
45:24investigations let them have proper evidence
45:27and force the criminal justice system which is
45:30going at snail space to work properly but that
45:33could only happen if people are aware of
45:34their rights is it is it they say it's it's
45:36better to to release 12 guilty than to convict
45:40one innocent that's an old adage in the
45:42criminal law because one innocent person being
45:45wrongly convicted means the whole system is
45:47broken and every day you see cases look i'm
45:50doing a case right now where somebody's
45:53involved a businessman has some connection
45:56with the police in a particular area and
45:58falls out with his common law wife she's
46:01detaining herself for five days no access to
46:04bail because to teach her lesson and they
46:07condone that her recourse is now is to sue the
46:10police alone how today these things are
46:13happening and that that shows that it could
46:15happen to anybody and unless the commissioner
46:17of police will come out and say my police
46:20service is squeaky clean we have to keep
46:23fighting making people aware of the rights and
46:25holding those in authority accountable because
46:28the one person who is innocently taken
46:31advantage of is one too many so we it's about
46:34it's almost our time to wrap um but i want to
46:37get to the point of the psychological impact so
46:42niall things could have been a whole different
46:45story for him he could have be work he could
46:47have be worse off mentally than than he is now
46:49into in terms um and i only bring in some
46:53light to the moment because it's heavy it's
46:55heavy to what what is going on in my mind
46:58what's going on i'm sure another person's mind
46:59even though i sit here now free and there's a state
47:03there's a statement freedom is not free um but but
47:06in in context we are here as long as we abide by
47:09laws we have we have choice um and i i have an
47:14experience and i know do i want to experience the
47:16sound of the clan but you know i was trying to make
47:20light of a moment because it's heavy right now getting
47:22this information um i'm not saying you're
47:25desensitized it but you you are knowledge is power you
47:28you you know what to do and and in that moment most
47:32people will not know what to do so to say i'm in fear
47:34of my life or i'm traumatized you know as preparation is is just
47:40that prepare prepare prepare for those moments so that
47:43when it happens you know and the likelihood of it
47:46happening in some capacity when it happens because we're not
47:50just looking at you know you want muscle memory and so
47:53now based on this conversation here guys today it's not just
47:57that we are concerned about crime right crime and criminality
48:01in terms of something happening to us like being robbed or raped or all the
48:04other things as innocence outside of that based on the
48:08persons that we turn to you know to control that environment we
48:13could be subject to such an environment it it can't there is a
48:17possibility it can't happen and we're trying to
48:20put things in place to prepare us for an unlikely moment
48:24but psychologically to someone who has endured that what does that look like
48:30well one i have not endured it myself so i come in from a
48:35strictly professional and even personally because i've had
48:38personal experiences with people who've been detained incarcerated and even
48:42convicted right it strips you of who you are
48:47it strips you of almost everything of your identity because sometimes even your name
48:53right people who call you by your name when you're in prison you become something else
48:58and that's on one end for you and i've seen
49:02but even when you leave i'm told even when you're you know you gain freedom for some reason
49:07whether you're innocent or guilty i've never seen anybody leave the same and i'm sure
49:11you could say the same thing because even if you want to look on an international stage right
49:17when everybody when buju banton came out of prison you could see that's a different person
49:23same thing with kata vibes you could see that's visibly a different person it takes it takes
49:30almost everything of who you are and what is replaced with is a shade of of who you were and even who you want to be
49:39because a lot of us in terms of not necessarily arrogance but we have we we feel that we have a certain authority
49:46because we know how to navigate the free world right i am a i am a teacher i am a father i
49:51am a behavior change consultant i am these things that i feel authority for but all of that gone
49:58all of that it disappears or i am the the baddest man on the block why i have guns i i had money i
50:05had whatever it is now all of that gone so based on what you're saying you want to say it seems like
50:11prison is working because you don't want these people to return to society like how they work well i
50:17i would say no because i wasn't there when the prison system was created in trinidad to know what
50:24was their purpose but international standards rehabilitation whereas you're supposed to come
50:29out a better person than you went in because you're reintegrating into society so a broken person even
50:35though he may not be violent anymore right a broken person is not a healthy person back in society and
50:40then you flip side it sometimes they're so angry at the system you come out now rebellious against the
50:45system or people or erratic so if you come out worse than you went in it definitely not working
50:51and i would say omla thank you one for bringing this because one as a man and as men who whether
51:00it is you're alone you have a family to protect you have children etc knowledge is power and understanding
51:05how to navigate society is is an important thing i myself now going to take even from my responsibility
51:12one to attend your series two to even understand things a little better so i could help myself help
51:18my family and also even help others so thank you very much for that and you know we have to be our
51:23brother's keeper that's why the information is important that's why this show is important it's
51:27empowering each other because if we're not looking after each other and empowering and educating then
51:34we're also responsible and we're part of the problem and that's why i encourage young lawyers do
51:38something don't only just sit down and and twiddle your thumbs because if you have the knowledge you
51:43have to share it prison in trinidad feels you're meant to rehabilitate yes you're meant to punish
51:51but you go in teeth in mangoes and you in a cell with a man who's a gang leader you coming out
51:57graduating to a different level because your brain now has a wire to survive and you're going to now
52:02not come out rehabilitated but come out worse and we have to move away from the fact that prison is just a
52:08house you punish you and and let you come out in a in a way that's far worse than you ever went in
52:14it is important that people understand their rights it's important that people
52:18we're not fighting the police we're not against the system we're not hating on anybody but in order
52:23for the system to work people have to robustly defend and know their rights so that the system
52:29could work the way it was meant to work it does not work the way it's meant to work too many innocent
52:35people are taking advantage of if 90 of this country is law-abiding and 90 of people know
52:41their rights and can hold the system accountable the system has no choice but to work properly but
52:47if we all live in fear and we're always in our back foot because we're afraid of anybody in uniform or
52:52authority it will never work and then we're going to get to a situation where crime as it already is a
52:58runaway horse will make all of us subservient our broken system that's a clip right there
53:04for me my closing thoughts i'll keep it short and whatever you do get a lawyer first whether it's an
53:11opening a business anything that you want to accomplish in life get somebody who understands
53:16the law better than yourself and they will walk you through the process
53:19mine's gonna be even shorter than that you know bad things happen when good people do nothing
53:26um so do something about it and being right is you know we we we stand a lot of time to say i i want
53:34to be right i'm right and yes you may be right but in a lot of cases as we've discussed here today
53:39you may win the battle but you'd lose the war so figure that out again as you said johansi knowledge is
53:45indeed power um we have the knowledge here today so with that being said johansi om niall thanks once
53:53again this has been a very impacting and powerful conversation the sound of the clang i pray that you
53:59never experience that either behind or in front of manhood brought to you in part by reboot sports drink
54:11manhood brought to you in part by solomon's bespoke